People in Economy that insist on using Business Class toilets .

[Cool Wavy NG738]

Personally from my point of view First and Business class customers pay premium for sitting in their own cabin area and having the use of the facilities they have paid for.

More elderly people , people with medical requirements medical and children aside that may not be able to "hold on", what are your views on people coming in from Economy through the curtain and using the First/Business class toilets when operating in the premium cabins as crew? Discuss.

[bondim]

I agree with you that business and forst class cabins are separated for a reason and have more number of toilets per pax than in economy. The challenge here is, how do you tell an economy pax not to cross the curtain as they have not paid to be seated in that cabin area? It is a very uncomfortable situation, where cc have to find a solution that affends no-one. In an airline I used to work at, when there were long queues for economy toilets we used to discreetly "escort" one economy pax at a time to the business class toliets. I don't think anyone in business class ever noticed or had a problem with that.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to use a toilet when one is available, rgardless of what seating they paid for. And the answer I think lies exactly here, economy pax have not paid to SIT in business cabins and enjoy the difference in service there but they have certainly paid to be able to use toilet facilities in whichever cabin this may be available. As long as they don't disturb the "piece and quiet" biz or first pax paid extra for, I don't see how they could be denied access to toilets there.

[fred737]

I agree that there should be some kind of hard barrier. It annoys me too that the facilities (for which I have pais a tidy sum) ar used at peak times by Y pax.

It would help if, as well as the curtain, airlines used a rope across the walkway as they do between the first class galley and the cabin behind it.

[flapsforty]

It's a cabin crew member's JOB!
That entirely depends on the airline´s policies, and on the extent to which their policies match their practice baggersup.

For CC to be willing and able to enforce class-conscious peeing, a few conditions have to be in place:

The airline has a policy mandating it.
CC have been trained on diplomatic yet effective ways of challenging pax bahaviour.
CC know that the company will back them up in case diplomacy doesn´t work and a pap kicks up a written stink after the flight.


Another factor is USA rules regarding toilet use on flights to/from a USA destination. The Captain has to make a pre take-off speech about no group-loitering anywhere on board being allowed, and about people using the lavatory in their own area and class. The CC have to enforce this, while at the same time making sure that the elderly, the infirm and children can use the closest unoccupied lav available.

All said and done, I believe it is entirely reasonable for First and Business class pax to expect toilets for their exclusive use. For exactly the reasons mentioned by baggersup.

We aim to be nice to everybody, but undeniably, some p..s are more equal than others. ;)

[chiquidejesus]

in US flights, pax are not allowed to move from one cabin to another. Hence, the economy pax cant use premium cabin's toilet...

[GayGourmet]

Try spending a night in 11A Club World and having "visitors" clomping past all night back and forth to the toilets (or to steal the food from the Club World kitchen when the cabin crew backs are turned), women smashing you in the arm and head with their huge handbags while you are trying to sleep. That focuses the mind on why people who shouldn't be there need to stay in their own cabins.

11A is a window seat on any aircraft... not sure how these women are smashing you in the head with their handbags, unless of course you are going to LOS where the bags are indeed large and could concievably be hitting both you and the aisle passenger?

GG

[Joao da Silva]

The real problem is not so much people using the loo, as a stream of extra people walking through and adding to the noise experienced.

At the end of the day, an airliner is a public transport vehicle, so one is not going to experience the solitude of a private jet, but if the airline has charged a substantial premium for premium accomodation, then it should use reasonable efforts to deliver that promise.

A word often used by airlines to describe their premium offerings is 'exclusive', which by its very definition means keeping others out.

Bottom line, if the accomodation (i.e. cabin) is sold by class, then it should be mainly restricted to the people who bought that class and the crew should be trained (and performance managed) to discretely enforce this.

I usually travel long haul business and would not dream of using the first class loos (or any other part of that accomodation, out of respect for the premium those pax have paid to enjoy a higher level of service and peace and quiet.)

With respect to Flaps Forty, if a cabin crew member cannot competently influence passenger behaviour in a discrete way, they should not be working in a premium cabin, not least because (sadly) one gets enough awkward characters in there, who can be very difficult to manage.

Sometimes, what should be a relaxing journey, turns into an ordeal because of the behaviour of some business class pax, but that is another matter, for another thread.

One final point, as a J class pax sleeping through the night, I really do appreciate cabin crew who master the art of walking lightly through the cabin and minimising the amount of time the curtain to the galley is open when entering/exiting :ok: This really does make a big difference to quality of sleep.

[Lancastrian]

As a "one time user" of aircraft transportation,I fully understand the annoyance from a "first class" passenger when the premium seat holder invades their space. However, those of us in the world with alimentary systems that would not pass a full MOT,children et al, do not have the luxury of "time" on their side to wait for the appropriate loo vacancy. As Steve McQueen said to Paul Newman in the Towering Inferno..."When you want to build one of these things architect, come and see me first". Its a pity plane designers do not use this maxim for common sense to pravail. Flying with Delta quite a few years ago, their aircraft had quite a goodly number of "loos" at the rear of the aircraft and scattered throughout. The trolley blocking posed little if any inconvenience. I dont suppose anyone is really interested but the outcome of all this is a section of society who now no longer wish to fly. The protracted wait in the terminal, queue,s,security search,walk to boarding and flight duration has now given way to a cruise. It is income wittingly lost to the airlines all because of poor thoughtless design.

[oldbaldeagle]

And, one might add Lancastrian, the lack of loos at pier gates after a 3 mile hike (and perhaps an ill advised last pint in the departure hall).:\

[Justanopinion]

I save up every 2 years to afford the treat of flying long haul in business class with BA. I totally look forward to, and enjoy the whole experience and don't give a fig if some one in economy wants to use the loo i have saved for 2 years to use. Why would i spoil the experience with the distraction of ill feelings, towards some one who needs to relieve themselves?

[Joao da Silva]

Justanopinion

I respect your views as an infrequent flyer in the premium classes and am very pleased that you enjoy this experience, long may it continue to give you pleasure. I am treating my wife and kids to J class at Xmas, they will be thrilled.

The problem for frequent business travellers is that we are normally enroute between meetings or some other event, very tired, sometimes jetlagged and most likely having to go to work when we get off the bus.

It isn't pleasurable, it isn't relaxing and all we want to do is sleep on overnight flights and very often during day flights, too. The more people wandering through the cabin, the less quality of sleep, simples.

Contrary to popular rumour, the frequent business travellers that I know don't see premium classes as making them in some way superior to those in economy, just as a method of surviving another day. There are some prats who probably do think they are superior, but see my comments in my post above.

Hope that gives you some context.

[ozangel]

da Silva.

Agree completely. You're not just paying for a bigger seat and nicer food - you're paying for peace and quiet.

It's something that I always carefully and politely controlled, except in cases of desperation (i.e those that physically cant wait for reasons beyond their actions/control - children, medical, elderly etc) - upon which they were discretely escorted to and from.

For the most part, I found it's usually a case of curiosity on the part of economy pax (how do the other half live?) - they usually do know better!

I was recently travelling on a near 7hour flight aboard a 737-800 - 2hrs prior to landing the senior/cm/cs cleaned and locked off the forward toilet. Despite a queue at top of descent, that reached the exit rows(!), which included premium pax and children (one of whom was crying!), her grumpy response was that 'i've already cleaned it, and i'm not doing it again before landing'.

[Joao da Silva]

Hi Ozangel

I really appreciate your efforts and would never object to anyone in need, in fact, if escorted discretely, I probably would not even be aware :ok:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Baggers, I couldn't give a toss how much you paid for your seat but when this Tesco class pedestrian needs to go he needs to go. I'll find the closest toilet and sequester myself in it for as long as I like.

Your posts are coming across as a bit elitist old chap.

[Marty-Party]

Thread crrep I know, but has anyone else noticed a trend of economy passengers putting their hand baggage in the overhead lockers in business? This seems to be happening more and more as the econ pax fill up the business lockers and before strolling back to econ.

Often the business pax are last on and find all the lockers in their cabin are full. The cabin crew have a nightmare sorting it all out.

Cheeky monkeys at the back just breeze up as they disembarking and collect their bags as they pass by. I suppose they think it's easier than dragging their bags to the bun fight at the back but it's effectively pinching the lockers paid for by the business pax.

The time it makes me smile though is on the rare occasions that we disemabrk from the rear. Tthe econ pax have to wait until all the others have disembarked before they can go against the flow and get their bags back.

[twhite1]

for the airline i work for, i couldnt imagine the flight crew queueing for the toilets in economy, chatting to the stag or hen do about wheres best to go clubbing in ibiza! Flight crew use the fowrard toilet not only to skip the cue but to avoid the majority of passengers to ensure safety so ask a question, why is first/premium cabin at the front of an aircraft and not the rear?

so as safety is an airlines primary concern, lets all stick to the toilets situated in the cabin in which you are sitting hey.

Regards
Ian

[Hartington]

Ian, did you know that in the days of propeller driven aircraft with first class it was at the back because, on a propellor driven aircraft that is usually quieter?

[Joao da Silva]

Baggers, I couldn't give a toss how much you paid for your seat but when this Tesco class pedestrian needs to go he needs to go. I'll find the closest toilet and sequester myself in it for as long as I like.Maybe it's time that airlines started to give 'penalty fares' to posters like the above, for using accomodation they have not paid for?

That aggressive type of posture is really not on.

[brocstar]

I agree wholeheartedly!
I travel by Air seldom - but love it and am fascinated by the engineering and the industry in general.
It is NOT commonplace to me. Recently,when my wife and I emigrated to Greece, as a special surprise 'treat' I booked us 'up the front' to make our trip memorable. We spent 4 hours sitting next to an economy toilet queue with passangers leaning on the back of our seats and causing noise and disturbance that ruined this 'special' flight.
So I would like to take this opportunity to thank all of the airline passangers WHATEVER THEIR TRAVELLING CLASS who seem to think that they and only they matter.
In my opinion, if you use facilities NOT intended for you - you are a THIEF - and a bloody nuisance!

All the best
Brocstar

[Diplome]

I've flown with a few airlines that specifically state that the facilities located in the first/business class cabin are reserved for first/business class patrons.

...as for the likes of Lord Spandex Masher, its hardly elitist. Individuals have paid for a product and expect to receive the benefit of that product, and there are adult undergarments that will help you with your problem.

As for the "takeover" of First/Business class storage space the Cabin Crew on Delta's Manchester/Atlanta flights are wonderful about protecting their premium travelers' space. Smooth as can be, firm but polite "No"s, and directing to the appropriate cabin.

[GayGourmet]

We have totally forgotten about those pax in B zone on a BA 747 who have paid for J but use the F loos. An even bigger crime when B zone is in W config.

The red rope is there for a reason. If only the crew would actually place it across the curtain...

GG

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Maybe it's time that airlines started to give 'penalty fares' to posters like the above, for using accomodation they have not paid for?

That aggressive type of posture is really not on.

Really? So when all the Tesco toilets are full you expect me to 'hold it in' indefinitely? Or shall I just pee in the aisle.

Sorry, but if the loo is free I'll use it, don't care where it is. I won't disturb you by doing so, I do have an awareness of other people. There's nothing aggressive about that.

Diplome,
...as for the likes of Lord Spandex Masher, its hardly elitist. Individuals have paid for a product and expect to receive the benefit of that product, and there are adult undergarments that will help you with your problem.

It is elitist. You've paid for it so I can't use it nah nah naaaah nah nah! You haven't paid for the use of a particular toilet you've paid for your seat and the service you get. When I'm on board an aeroplane I've paid to be on I expect to be able to use the loo as and when I need to.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Someone's house - No, private property, but if I was desperate and there wasn't another one close I'd ask.

Hairdresser - I'd ask if I was desperate, but as it's a seperate entity I wouldn't be in there in the first place.

Tesco toilets full - I'd have to wait. Same as all the toilets in use on board I'd wait but as soon as one becomes free I'm in it.

Now, if Tesco had Clubcard Holders Only toilets and the non-clubcard toilets were full then, yes, I'd use them.

Or, would you like me to just go in the aisle? Or risk a severe medical condition by holding it in for too long?

[Abusing_the_sky]

Why Mr Spandex, you must be a bundle of joy on board an a/c!

I don't know how the toilets "at the back" are, but i'm pretty sure they don't have flowers in them, nor do they have Elemis products for use when you're washing your hands.
If i paid for a CLUB ticket, i expect only pax in CLUB to use the CLUB toilets. It's only fair; you get what you pay for. Why should someone who had not paid for a CW ticket use the stuff i paid for?
What are you going to say next, that if you fancy some more wine you just go help yourself from Club World kitchen?

:suspect:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

But a toilet is a toilet is a toilet. Init? Doesn't matter where it is.

If your business/club/first passenger found himself waiting excessively for the business/club/first loo then I'm sure they'd have no compunction in heading down the back for relief!

[MrWomble]

As I once pointed out to a CSD having a long queue of people waiting to use a toilet while there are others not being used made him and his crew look ineffective and un-caring towards their passengers. He agreed and starting sending people off to use other toilets.

[Cunliffe]

If my memory serves me correctly, business class on El Al 747s in the 70s was restricted to the first 6 rows at the pointy end. This meant that all the toilets were in economy. Am I entitled to a refund for having to pass through the curtain to spend a penny?

[Cool Wavy NG738]

I had it the other day where there was just a single restroom for business class, after I politely asked them to go and use the Economy restrooms, the customer refused and kind of ignored me and went on in after I had explained politely I needed it for business class customers.

No sooner the restroom became occupied by the Y class person, someone from Business got up to use the facility and couldn't, so then had to sit back down and wait 5-10 mins for a washroom in their own cabin area, which would have been empty for them - as said person really took their time.

Isn't that wrong when someone has paid a premium fare? That's my prime reasoning.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Was he too lazy to walk backwards to the next closest loo? Afterall, they are all the same aren't they.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Lawful commands - Lawful penalty.

Silly requests about the loo with the flowery soap - not a lot:E

[flapsforty]

Baggersup, here you go.

The Tokyo Convention applies to crew and passengers on board an aircraft.

It is a sensible document and if more passengers were aware of its ramifications and the extended powers of a captain and his/her crew to ensure good order and discipline on board, there would be a lot less day to day trouble and aggravation for both crews and passengers. And a lot fewer passengers would end up in handcuffs, with thick tie wraps around their ankles trussed up in their seat like Xmas turkeys.


Convention on Offences and Certain Other Acts Committed on Board Aircraft, Tokyo, 14 September 1963 (*)
The Convention applies to offences and other acts prejudicial to good order and discipline on board an aircraft, committed while the aircraft is in flight or on the surface of the high seas or of any other area outside the territory of any State. It does not apply to State aircraft, for example, aircraft used in military, customs and police services.

The purpose of the Tokyo Convention is to protect the safety of the aircraft and of the persons or property thereon and to maintain good order and discipline on board. The aircraft commander, members of the crew and, in specific circumstances, even passengers on board, are empowered to prevent the commission of such acts and to disembark the person concerned. The aircraft commander may also disembark the offender or, if the offence is serious, deliver him to the competent authorities of a Contracting State when the aircraft lands. The Convention protects the aircraft commander and any crew member or passenger assisting him in imposing the measures he finds necessary from any proceedings in respect of actions taken by them.

(*) Summary courtesy of ICAO

[Hipennine]

Aside from Y pax just being deliberately awkward (a trait not unique to Y), shouldn't the beef be with the airlines who fail to provide adequate facilities in Y, not the Y pax who need to go ?

The loo to seat ratio on LH Y is a disgrace, (and also have a thought for the unfortunate Y's who get stuck with a seat near the loos). Not only is it uncomfortable for those queueing or sat near the loos, but the level of use on an 8 hour plus flight leads to a very unpleasant/potentially unhygenic situation. Moreover, everytime there is a turbulence incident reported here on Pprune, there is a race to attack the idiots not wearing their seatbelts, only to be followed by more objective comments that the level of injuries equates to the number of people who would normally be queueing for the loo at that time of the flight.

As a generally rule compliant individual, if I was in Y needing to go, and there was a 20min Q for the Y loos, on safety grounds alone I would consider it appropriate that I have access to the J loo to minimise the turbulence risk, never mind the biological one!

[Joao da Silva]

Aside from Y pax just being deliberately awkward (a trait not unique to Y), shouldn't the beef be with the airlines who fail to provide adequate facilities in Y, not the Y pax who need to go ?

I agree with you. An earlier poster asked if a business class pax would use the Y loo and I would generally try not to, for this very reason. It isn't fair to the people who have less facilities to share.

As I said earlier, it is not the loo access that worries me, so much as the disruption to my attempts to sleep, when I have paid a substantial premium for more comfortable accomodation.

I took an intra Europe flight, in Y, this week and watched a stream of pax walk from the Y cabin into the C. I was not one of them, but if I'd been in C, I would have been disappointed to suffer habitual distrubance.

[Sober Lark]

Interesting, an aircraft toilet becomes a study in the establishment of dominance hierarchy.

After a motion, the individual probably believes each class has their own septic holding tank to receive the body waste and that it isn't allowed to mix with the lower orders. When eventually he does get off to an undisturbed sleep he probably dreams of his 'blue ice' dropping on the heads of lesser mortals far below and wakes up feeling totally refreshed.

[ShyTorque]

I've found an answer. Just pee down the business class curtain........ :E

[beamender99]

I've found an answer. Just pee down the business class curtainI seem to recall that James Hunt the racing driver did that but from first class

[MIDLGW]

Part of the whole congestion issue in Y is due to some people going to the loo much more often than what they'd do at home. It could be boredom, I suppose, as you get a chance to sit and think about ablutions and suchlike.

I've seen it plenty of times. 90 mins flight time, several people using the toilet 3 times, sometimes more. These were adults in their 20's and 30's. I obviously don't know whether all these people have bladder problems, but I do think it's boredom.

Now, if it wasn't for "everyone" going to the loo as soon as the meal service is done (LH), there wouldn't be so much congestion either. Yes, go when you need to, but just be quick in there when there's a queue.

I'm one of the "evil" ;) ones that send the passenger back to Y unless there's someone with a mobility problem or medical issue. Hate me if you like, I don't mind, but my Club passengers usually thank me for it.

[wowzz]

It's not boredom - it's too long in the bar prior to the flight!

[Matt101]

But a toilet is a toilet is a toilet. Init?


No. It isn't.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/Etihad/Etihad-first-toilet.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/Emirates%20shower%20flyertalk.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_cYYIjMZbEQA/SYwfg75662I/AAAAAAAABcw/W3VqXVpWeyY/s800/IMG_9711reformat2.jpg

The first two are not private jets but those found in premium cabins aboard two airlines in the Gulf. The extra space required for these bigger bogs, and the expensive products within them are paid for via higher fares for premium pax - just like their seats and catering.

No reasonable crew member would expect you to pee yourself, but as with the queue at the mall - if you are that close - ask to go in front or failing that go earlier, the other cabin is a last resort, fine, but it is not the god given right you seem to allude to.

If your argument was more reasonable, you may find those of us working in the industry become more reasonable too however.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Nice pictures.

Am I to understand, then, that having paid for a Tesco class seat but being lucky enough to be upgraded to Business class you would expect me to use the Tesco bog? I only paid for that afterall.

By the way at no point have I alluded to a god given right to use the posh loo. But I have a reasonable expectation to use any loo should I require it.

I also work in the industry so, therefore, there are some people who do work in this industry that are already reasonable!

[Matt101]

It's the "I have a reasonable expectation to use any loo should I require" , that puts I and perhaps others on an anti stance though.

If you are that desperate then yes goodness, I'm not expecting you to pee yourself - when I was in the cabin I ushered many an elderly person or child up to a free bathroom, but what you are saying smacks a bit of "I'm coming through and blow the rest of you and what you think".

And if you work in the industry shirley you realise that airlines sell premium products with the expectation that the products are not mixed, otherwise the point of paying more is somewhat lost.

As for an upgrade - if you get one bloody well enjoy it sir.

[Piltdown Man]

Let's get elitist... Those who pay the extra for Business/First/Upper - call it what you will, might reasonably expect to fully enjoy the privileges that go with that class of ticket. For the majority of airlines the product offered includes access to premium lounges, priority boarding, a larger seat pitch, better food and drink and less people around you. So looking at this from a premium passenger's point of view - If I needed to use the loo I would really be hacked off if I had to queue behind someone from the "cheap seats." I would also be miffed if the loos were forever being used by everyone else, if for no other reason that the more the loo is used, the dirtier it gets. A constant trail of people through "my space" would also get on my tits. I would also be annoyed if some bugger nicked my luggage space. But it's up to the cabin crew to look after those who pay their wages: those in the premium seats. Failure to do this will drive away the premium passengers to an airline that will look after them.

And for those you who can't control your bladders, may I suggest that flying is for not for you.

PM

[cookie4152]

Easily fixed! When I see this I relocate the bag to an economy overhead locker. The hapless offender panicks when they walk through business, to find their bag missing. I am unable (farewelling at the forward door) to assist in locating the bag until all pax have disembarked.
The pax is unlikely to reoffend.

[Lancastrian]

Piltdown Man...agree on all points. As I said when this thread opened, until someone takes note of the fact that there is an increasing number in society that will no longer fly because...... We expect to pay a decent rate on ticket procurement and for that expect a decent seat,adequate toilets and a degree of comfort. The last time I flew showed limited toilet facilities, a continual "trolley" parade blocking the aisle and seats that were made for a neanderthal skeletons rse not a humans, and leg space fit only for a midget. Lets be realistic, cc have my sympathy as indeed many users leave a lot to be desired. I have sat too many times amid the "families from hell" or the geezer who thinks swilling a gut full of ale is acceptable before flying. Accordingly, invaders of first class space is not acceptable. I have just returned via Southampton from my latest venture abroad. Transfer to ship...one hour and thirty minutes. Car taken by valet parking...hassle over. Toilet facilities at the pier head/embarkation hall. On return car keys brought onto the ship and home to Suffolk in four and a half hours. I did,nt have to bed down in a terminal, or stand out in the cold in London waiting for a train journey. Dont get me wrong, I would love to fly again but, until aircraft design and carriers underpin my needs....like many others....NO.

[gchangflyer]

This is a very interesting topic.

It is quite understandable that passengers and crew in the premium cabin would not welcome pax from economy using their facilities-after all the fare price difference is vast and is so for a reason (better ratio of pax to cabin crew and facilities,peace and quiet etc)...on the other hand, sometimes the toilet facilities in the economy cabin are abysmally inadequate, especially at peak times.I agree that 'discreetly escorting' those pax who appear in a degree of discomfort is the best course of action in such instances.:ok:

What I would like to raise, on a related topic,is what do cabin crew think about pax who are seated in economy class coming up into premium class for short periods during flight if they have colleagues or relatives seated in premium?

I shall relate an incident that happened on a Gulf carrier en route to Bahrein four years ago...I was seated in economy,while my elderly parents were seated in Business class, as theirs had been the last two premium tickets available when we booked our trip. I have flown that segment of airway before (as cockpit crewfor a different operator) and know the landmarks well.We were approaching Zanzibar.We had recently been on holiday there and I wanted to point the island out to my father. It was about 3pm, there was no meal service on at the time and the whole aircraft was fairly quiet.I discreetly made my way into premium class and in a hushed voice, pointed the sight out to my father. I was engaged in a very discreet conversation when a young and extremely cocky flight attendant approached me and told me to remove myself from the premium cabin at once. I was both infuriated and disgusted.The matter was quickly sorted out when I demanded the ICFA be summoned and the extremely forceful attendant was made to apologise by the ICFA, but I was wondering what the general consensus is on such situations?

(As a footnote, my father, a senior figure in the travel industry, had been invited by the very airline i am referring to to, to sample their service in order to possibly send his passengers via BAH to europe and the Far East...needless to say her heavy handed approach did nothing to endear him to the airline in question and I'm not sure they got any further business out of him) (As a post-footnote, the ICFA, a charming lady, was just smashing in how she handled the situation.)

[TightSlot]

They clearly failed to fully appreciate what Special Treatment you and your family deserve.

[gchangflyer]

You clearly have it in for me Tightslot. Your behaviour is extremely childish.Please tell me, what exactly is it about that post that you dislike? Please...enlighten me.

Perhaps you should read your own "Moderators Forum Rules" in the "Forum FAQ & useful links" at the top of the thread list, which say,in case you need refreshing,:

"Personal attacks on others are not allowed. If you cannot counter an argument without attacking the person, then do not post here. Play the ball, not the player"...

So, Tightslot, are you going to play by your own rules then? It doesn't look like you are...:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

[G-BPED]

I discreetly made my way into premium class and in a hushed voice, pointed the sight out to my father. I was engaged in a very discreet conversation when a young and extremely cocky flight attendant approached me and told me to remove myself from the premium cabin at once. I was both infuriated and disgusted.The matter was quickly sorted out when I demanded the ICFA be summoned and the extremely forceful attendant be made to apologise, but I was wondering what the general consensus is on such situations?

(As a footnote, my father, a senior figure in the travel industry, had been invited by the very airline i am referring to to, to sample their service in order to possibly send his passengers via BAH to europe and the Far East...needless to say her heavy handed approach did nothing to endear him to the airline in question and I'm not sure they got any further business out of him) (As a post-footnote, the ICFA, a charming lady, was just smashing in how she handled the situation.)


Whilst I would not condone a "heavy handed" approach as you suggest the CC used. I would have thought that you should have asked to enter the Premium Cabin and not "made your way" into that cabin. If you had taken that approach then you would not have had any confrontation to deal with!

Regards,

G-BPED

[Piltdown Man]

gchangflyer - you have probably failed to grasp an important piece of etiquette when flying as a passenger - it's not your aircraft. So when you want to "cross a boundary" you should ask first. It doesn't matter who you are are who you were speaking to, the cabin crew who spoke you was doing their job and you still fail to realise that. It is very disappointing to think that you might actually fly an aircraft for a living - dealing with people like you who can be so quickly offended for such little things makes everybody's lives more difficult than they need to be.

Please tell me I've misunderstood.

PM

[Wheezyjet]

"The matter was quickly sorted out when I demanded the ICFA be summoned and the extremely forceful attendant be made to apologise"

I think this may be the cause of the adverse reaction to your post. Whether you like it or not, the cabin crew member was doing their job, albeit with a rather less than diplomatic touch. To summon their boss and make the person concerned apologise was pompous and unnecessary. A discreet apology from the senior crew member would have been fine, but to insist on the humiliation of the junior member was not an action you should be proud of.

[Diplome]

gchangflyer:

As a passenger I can see some obvious problems with your conduct and your approach to the situation you described.

The most obvious is that you entered the Premium cabin without requesting permission from Cabin Crew...simply inappropriate.

Secondly, you seem to have forgotten that the other passengers who paid for premium service (and part of that service includes peace) may not appreciate your presence in their cabin.

Your fathers' status (or yours) means nothing. The individual seated across the aisle from your parents who may have been annoyed by your intrusion may also represent a significant number of bookings.*

You may have received an "apology" from the Cabin Crew member, but I have a suspicion that it was done for the purpose of getting an irritating passenger under control and the situation over.

As much as I agree that rudeness is always unfortunate your complaint reads as another one of the "I know there are rules but they shouldn't have applied to me in this instance" stories I'm getting quite used to reading on this forum.

*And the number of bookings represented by any individual is actually irrelevant to the actual flight. An individual who was flying Premium for the first and only time is still entitled to the full Premium product on the flight they have booked. I'm sure in retrospect you can understand the error of your actions though the juvenile multiple waving of the finger posts should leave me in doubt.

[gchangflyer]

Valid point...I would have asked permission but the CC in Economy were all in their crew rest area/absent and not visible, as, when I went to the galley there was just one lady, snoozing, on a plastic crate.I wasn't going to wake her for that .Now the galley in Premium was at the FRONT of their cabin, so to ask would have meant entering in the first place.I understand the reasoning though.

Oh, and just to add clarity... I asked the (very loud) junior CC to please CALL her ICFA as I was not prepared to enter a loud debate with her in the aisle...when the ICFA came and I explained, it was the ICFA who made the junior apologise...I certainly didn't ask for that at all, I wanted just to point out the landmark then go back to my seat.

[grounded27]

Actually from a regulatory standpoint an aircraft must have one lav minimum for every 50 pax. On a narrow body with a dozen business class seats legally the fwd lav should be available to all pax. A lav is not a luxury item but a necessity of operation.

[Diplome]

grounded27: I've been strolling across the internet looking for references and did not see that specific requirement for flights originating in the U.K..

Though if we are speaking of a narrow body with a premium class of only 12 its short haul and the issue is not that dramatic if I'm not mistaken.

Any reference to regulations for specific aircraft and flight duration would be of interest. Amazing what our minds get to thinking about.

As for a lav not being a luxury, that is true in some cases, but not everyone books Ryanair.

[VS-LHRCSA]

The ATR72 has one lav for up to 72 pax.

[Capetonian]

If I am in a taxi I do not expect other people to jump in and hitch a free ride. Isn't this a rather similar analogy?

If I've paid a premium fare, and for me it's about space and comfort rather than caviar and champagne, I don't expect someone from steerage to come and encroach on the space I've paid for, nor for that matter to come and eat my caviar (disgusting stuff, I'd gladly give it to them!).

[Mr Optimistic]

Well, reading this thread has been an education ! I hadn't realised the class tensions prevalent in the cabin. All a foreign country to me. It does remind me of an incident I witnessed in the unlamented UK Railtrack company some years ago. This legacy of British Rail came with a hand-cart of custom and practice (some of them Spanish) and stiff upper lip attitudes. The ex British Rail staff still got their complementary travel which in this case included first class travel, and concessions for your family and servants :rolleyes:.

One day, a senior manager came into the office exuberant that an inspector had got on and flushed the oikes out of first class where they had no right to be. They were there because the train was 'full and standing'. So this comedian was jubilant that his customers had been denied access to the area which he ungraciously got for nothing. So it is still 'four legs good, two legs better'.

[Kin_El]

I've had a good chuckle reading this thread. A fair smattering of elitism and entrenched attitudes seem evident.

Most of my flying these day is confined to European destinations where premium accommodation, whatever it might be termed by the individual operator, is usually delimited by no more than a moveable curtain and where the seats and fwd loo are exactly the same as in cattle class.

I always book a C aisle seat as far forward as possible and sit out the rush so am nearly always nearly last on board and therefore have no compunction whatsoever in stowing my bag in the 1st bin with available space which invariably will be in the premium section. To suggest that I am 'stealing' something by doing so is preposterous.

Neither do I have any qualms about using the the fwd loo in preference to fighting my way back 20 odd rows and through the service trolleys and/or other pax moving about or queuing for the rear loos.

Furthermore, as disturbance seems to be quoted as a major factor, I can assure you that I am always very careful not to disturb anyone unnecessarily on any flight (no matter where they are on the plane) and would suggest that the noise and disturbance of an attendant trying to persuade me to go aft would certainly be many times worse than any I could or would personally create if left alone.

That all said, wherever possible I always make sure that I use the loo before I board and I reckon the number of times I actually need to use one inflight is no more than about 1 in 10, I wish I could say the same for fellow pax seated in A & B !

[100brian]

gchangflyer,

as you say, . I have flown that segment of airway before (as cockpit crewfor a different operator)
why did you not just pick up the in seat phone and ring your father at is seat, you would have know this was the best option if like you say you are air crew.:confused:

[gchangflyer]

One problem genius...no phone at my seat in economy:D