Passengers in the Cockpit/Doors locked.

[HighTow]

Quick question. What are the current EU regulations on passengers in the cockpit with regard to charter flights? Also related, I thought that pilots were not allowed to leave the door open/unlocked during flight?

[PAXboy]

Any commercial flight in European airspace = no visitors on the flight deck until after a/c stopped on arrival, doors open and systems shut down. No exceptions.

[SloppyJoe]

if you need the loo then you have to open the door. If you want food or drink then again open the door. Sometimes gets left open for a minute or two but with someone standing nearby. Have cameras to watch galley area behind door and a light to see if toilet is occupied and not meant to open it if someone is in the loo or galley other than crew. Unlike airport security most of us have brains and if an 80 year old woman has just gone into the loo we would still open the door to leave if we wanted to or open it to get drinks/food.

[One Outsider]

Care to provide documentation to support that rather bold statement, Paxboy?

[Hotel Tango]

Yes PAXboy, I'm very interested too.

[jackieofalltrades]

Any commercial flight in European airspace = no visitors on the flight deck until after a/c stopped on arrival, doors open and systems shut down. No exceptions.
Complete and utter rubbish. As an ATCO I and my colleagues have taken several famil flights where we sit in the cockpit for the entire duration of the flight. This being in European airspace. And thus by definition I am a visitor in the cockpit.

[PAXboy]

Ah, OK, it was late at night and by 'visitor' I was referring to us, the great unwashed freight. Not all those gorgeous and clean people that provide airline services. :ooh:

[Hotel Tango]

Wrong again I'm afraid PAXboy. On some airlines even the great unwashed get to visit up front (unless they pong of course). Do not base your comments purely on US and UK practices. A great deal of the rest of the world think differently and still allow Captains discretion re FD visits in flight.

[PAXboy]

Well there you go. I suppose that one can class this as:

Some European countries ignore the massive threat of attacks on FD staff
Some European countries take a realistic view of the the threat to ...
Some European countries ignore the rules/reccomendations blah blah!
Hey - whaddayikno? :8

[TightSlot]

As a general rule, access is not permitted at all, except by operating crew. Access for ATCO's and some others (CAA inspectors etc.) is permitted by prior formal arrangement only, not on an ad-hoc basis.

There is no doubt that some countries and their airlines outside the EU and USA (we won't name them here) may operate different procedures that are less stringent, involving 'Captains' discretion'. Your desire to visit the Flight Deck is understandable, but to present such a policy as being some kind of return to common-sense is absurd.

[Sobelena]

My company, a major EU carrier, continues to give Captains a certain amount of discretion on FD visits with the exception of flights in and out of the UK and USA!

[Orvilles dad]

Not sure about the universal implementation of EU rules, Tightslot.

Some EU carriers do allow a 'Captain's Discretion". My son is an FO on such a Euro Carrier and often flies with passengers in the cockpit - Captain's girlfriends, girls the Captain wished were his girlfriend, winner of the "Guess the weight of the Aircraft" competition and, most importantly, the FO's parents!:ok:

OD

[Big Bad D]

In answer to the original question...

EU OPS 1.735
"An operator shall not operate an aeroplane unless the following equipment is installed:
(a) In an aeroplane with a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, a door between the passenger compartment and the flight deck compartment with a placard ‘crew only’ and a locking means to prevent passengers from opening it without the permission of a member of the flight crew"

UK CAA FODCOM 21/10
"For Commercial Air Transport and Public Transport operations being conducted under EU-OPS, JAR-OPS 3 or the ANO, no person may be carried on the flight deck except a crew member assigned to the flight as an operating crew member, or a passenger permitted to occupy a flight deck seat in accordance with instructions in the operator’s operations manual."

[TightSlot]

Not sure about the universal implementation of EU rules, Tightslot.
That's pretty much the whole problem with EU rules - Weary Sigh!

I'll leave you to judge how smart, or not, it is to take the more relaxed view: I know where I stand, but there's always somebody with a different view - I'll give you even money that the airlines involved are flagged out of the 'usual suspect' nations within the EU


:E

[rmac]

Well T-S, one of the benefits of a Captain using his (or her) discretion, is that they can actually profile the person about to enter their domain.

Unless the FO is an immigrant from a particularly militant region of North Pakistan or insert your own high risk area here it seems highly unlikely that the parents are suddenly about to take the jet down (perhaps same odds as getting hit by a meteorite while in mid cruise), and even in the case that said FO originated from a troubled area, more likely that if he/she had been turned, would do the job alone rather than bring their parents in to it...On the other hand if they were inviting their younger (potentially hot headed) brother.....well you get the point

And before the pedants start flaming the example, its designed to be a provocative one, as there are potentially millions of different combinations, many with nothing to do with terrorism, where risk is profiled and measured in individual cases on a day to day basis, by educated people.

You cannot eliminate risk, only reduce it, if you try to eliminate it completely the only result is you end up in wonderland, living next door to Alice (Alice, who the **** is Alice ? :-)

[TightSlot]

I think there is a possibility that the Captain may be performing tasks associated with the safe operation of the aircraft rather than 'profiling' potential visitors. On balance, my preference remains for the locked door/no visitor protocol. To me, it makes sense


:)

[77]

Quite surprised to read this thread. I thought it was a no discussion item. Nobody on the flight deck apart from operating crew except flight crew or cabin crew in uniform could use a flight deck jump seat positioning to/from duty.
Not even Captains wife allowed.

[vctenderness]

Not even Captains wife allowed.

Would that be Captains first, second or third wife?:E

[77]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77
Not even Captains wife allowed.

Would that be Captains first, second or third wife?


Sorry to be boring but still on first !!!!

[dwshimoda]

I'm normally 100% behind you on all your posts, but on this one...


Why couldn't we use our discretion to allow our, or your, parents / partner on the flight deck? I'd tell them to shut up and enjoy the ride - no distraction.

Surely common sense has to prevail and the Captain / FO / SCCM can be trusted to make decisions about close friends and family?

DW.

[TightSlot]

Well - You may be right. I'm certainly not knowledgeable enough about security matters accurately to make that call. My gut feeling, my preference, is for the locked door/no visitors policy, but I can't be absolutely certain that this is the best way. It would take somebody with established security credentials and experience to make the case for or against effectively - This probably (but not definitely) removes most if not all PPRuNe users from the debate.


:)

[PPRuNe Pop]

dwshimoda

Just to add to Tightslot's well put reasoning, there was some very hard thinking done to establish the rule that visitors would no longer be allowed on the flight deck. I know of several requests being made on behalf of a Captain's wife or girlfriend, son or daughter or colleague from another airline - make your own list, as you have partly done.

The rule is based upon the blanket type. There are just a few exceptions, as there MUST be. CAA Inspectors, line check Captains, Chief Pilot and a few more but each airline has its own rules and applies them rigidly. There have been 'favours' but it always gets back to the company and in a couple of cases I know about the Captain was dismissed. He cannot afford to take that chance.

In oh so many ways it is a pity but a simple better safe than sorry principle works and as long as there are threats it will stay.

[dwshimoda]

I understand the rules, I just don't agree with them.

I don't want to start another discussion about the rights / wrongs of it - there have been enough threads already so wont debate the hard thinking(!).

My main response was to point out that someone sat in the jumpseat keeping their mouth shut is no distraction at all. We regularly fly with Engineers on board - the last phase of flight is so busy that you forget they are there, hence they are no distraction.

DW.

[Piltdown Man]

And, the same FODCOM carries this section:

1.3 For larger aircraft, the National Aviation Security Programme controls access to the flight deck. This FODCOM only applies where that Programme does not prohibit the carriage of passengers on the flight deck.

And there are some enlightened EU governments and operators (I think the majority) who allow common sense and the judgement of the crew to to prevail and control access. The idiots are the ones who create blanket rules without fully thinking through the repercussions of their legislation.

Please, don't misinterpret my comment above and believe that I'm against security. Far from it. But what I won't put up with the clap-trap and ridiculous rules designed by the numpties in DfT and enforced locally by the brainless morons at airports. Yet again we have seen how pointless our internal systems are as it takes a tip-off and two searches before we unload a "viable device" from one aircraft, put it on another and eventually load it on an helicopter. This is a clear case of the lunatics running the asylum. Whatever happens next, short of changing foreign policy, won't make anything safer anywhere.

My recommendation, get some earplugs - we'll need them.

PM

[nath9091]

I personally have been into a cockpit since 9/11. It was around 2004 in a KLM passenger plane between Amsterdam Schilpol and Singapore Changi somewhere over the Middle East. I was about 14 at the time. During the sleeping period one of the stewardesses came and asked if I would like to visit the cockpit so I said yes. Didn't stay for very long, but did go and have a few pictures of myself in a cockpit with the cockpit crew. I was flying with my parents, but they weren't asked so I went alone.

So, I would probably say that it still happens that passengers are invited to visit the cockpit just it might be a lot rarer since 9/11. Not sure about the regulations involved, but it's an amazing experience and really livened up that trip.