BA Open Skies – Open Cockpit door damaged by unsecure cart during landing.

[Niall Toibin II]

British Airways are involved in a new investigation into Open Skies after damage happen to an open flight deck door of a Boeing 757 during a landing in Paris.

The aircraft was returning from an eight day charter when an unsecured serving cart escaped from the rear galley, ran along the cabin and smashed into the side of the open flight deck door during the landing. The cart hit with such force that the door frame was moved by 5 centimeters out of alignment. The cart was stopped by the door frame and only partly entered the flight deck.

The aircraft was taken out of service, flown to Heathrow for major door and frame repairs reported in the company to cost €32,000 in addition to loss of service and ferry flight cost.

The flight deck and cabin crew were not suspended and remain flying.

The investigation continues. :ugh:

[hetfield]

We all gonna die.

[763 jock]

So are you suggesting that they should be sacked?

[STN Ramp Rat]

I am always having carts bashed into my seat row whilst they are under the control of the cabin crew. Getting a cart to run from the rear galley to the front galley without hitting one of the seat rows and without any assistance on the way down seems to be quite a feat,

[411A]

:ugh:So are you suggesting that they should be sacked?



CC in charge at the specific location where the cart came adrift certainly should be...after all that is part of their assigned duties, securing serving carts.
Plenty of warm bodies available to take their place, make no mistake.
...after damage happen to an open flight deck door of a Boeing 757 during a landing in Paris.



Also, what exactly was the FD door open for, during landing?
In this case, the CC supervisor should be shown the door, as well.

CC can't do assigned duties, show them the sack, pronto.:D

NB.
And, what about the 'cabin secure' message from said CC?
Was it given, and was the cabin really secure?
It would appear not....with a cart rolling down the aisle like a bowling alley.:=:ugh:

[hetfield]

Well, superior pilot, obviously you never made a mistake in your flying career.

[411A]

Well, superior pilot, obviously you never made a mistake in your flying career.
These weren't pilots, the concerned were trolly dollies.
Dime a dozen.:rolleyes:

[jetset lady]

Also, what exactly was the FD door open for, during landing?
In this case, the CC supervisor should be shown the door, as well.

The cabin supervisor? If the door was indeed open when it shouldn't have been, then I'd have thought the flight crew should have held some of that responsibility.

And, what about the 'cabin secure' message from said CC?
Was it given, and was the cabin really secure?

Obviously, no it wasn't really secure. But as a purser, I receive the checks from the crew at the back. If they tell me that the rear galley is secure, I believe them. Or do you suggest I go and check on every flight? Maybe I should check that the doors are in automatic when appropriate too. And of course, manual. Or maybe, just maybe, I can trust that we are all adults onboard and therefore should be capable of doing our jobs.

Unfortunately, in this instance, a mistake was made. A damned big mistake but still a mistake! In my view, the crew should have been suspended pending investigation and then the appropriate action taken, whether that be a warning, retraining or something more serious. You can bet your life none of the crew involved will ever forget to secure a cart again!

You can talk about the "what if's" till the cows come home, probably concerning incidents on both sides of the door, but thankfully in this instance, only the door was damaged.

I am always having carts bashed into my seat row whilst they are under the control of the cabin crew

Sorry STN Ramp Rat. I'm convinced that the carts are made by the same people that make shopping trolleys. One set of wheels will be happy to go down the aisle while the other set will want to look out of the window. We do try to keep them in a straight line, honest!

[411A]

Also, what exactly was the FD door open for, during landing?

If the door was indeed open when it shouldn't have been, then I'd have thought the flight crew should have held some of that responsibility.


During landing?
Seems to me that the pilots are strapped in for said landing, not getting up to close the FD door.:rolleyes:
But as a purser, I receive the checks from the crew at the back. If they tell me that the rear galley is secure, I believe them. Or do you suggest I go and check on every flight?
Perhaps you should, as ours do.
Open Skies does long haul, as we do, not some low cost airline doing multiple sectors per day, with minimal CC numbers.
You can bet your life none of the crew involved will ever forget to secure a cart again!


One would certainly hope not.

Now, there may be a reasonable excuse...poor cart restraint, or a malfunction of same.
In this case, we look to the cabin maintenance folks, and ascertain why this was so.

[BOAC]

Time perhaps for another breath for some posters?

This has happened a few times before in several airlines, BA on one occasion in a jumbo. I cannot recall if that was an empty flight or not, but a former airline had one with a pos flight with no crew and that was poor flight deck checks. On both flights the door was closed but practically removed from its hinges.

Do we know if it was a pax carrying flight? If positioning, is it actually wrong to have an open door (through which we readily admit the very same cabin crew during the flight) for landing?

[Maurice Chavez]

Do we know if it was a pax carrying flight? If positioning, is it actually wrong to have an open door (through which we readily admit the very same cabin crew during the flight) for landing?With the Fun Police dictating airlines on what to do (IATA/IOSA), I don't think that door should have been open. As BA is an IATA carrier and without doubt has passed its IOSA audit, BA would have a closed cockpit door policy in place. That policy stays in effect even when operating on charters or when ferrying. Both Flight Deck and Cabin crew carry responsibility in this "incident".

[Piltdown Man]

Does all the IATA/IOSA security nonsense apply to non-revenue flights? I think not. Also, when ferrying an empty aircraft, I always have the flighty deck door open. With no cabin crew I want to keep an eye on what is going on behind me. And while we are discussing cabin crew, some scumbags do treat them as "Dime-a-dozen." The same people probably beat up their wives for leaving the kitchen lights on unnecessarily. And just to make it clear, sacking people is neither a mature, civilised nor European thing to do. Firing someone for a single mistake just smacks of third-worldism and is also hardly conducive to a "Just Culture." Redneck justice like "shooting the perp." NEVER guarantees that the same offence won't be committed by another.

PM

[411A]

This entire episode smacks of the usual BA (or, BA affiliated company) attitude, that...'we can do no wrong.'
Time and again this is proven quite incorrect...BA stuffs it up with some regularity, it appears...next thing you know, they will be called the 'new' AirFrance.:yuk::yuk:

[jetset lady]

I wondered how long that would take. I have to say, you weren't as quick off the mark as usual, 411A. :rolleyes:

Please do tell. Who is this oh so perfect airline that you fly for?

This entire episode smacks of the usual BA (or, BA affiliated company) attitude, that...'we can do no wrong.'

You appear to have missed a small part of my earlier post so I shall repost it for you.

Unfortunately, in this instance, a mistake was made. A damned big mistake but still a mistake! In my view, the crew should have been suspended pending investigation and then the appropriate action taken, whether that be a warning, retraining or something more serious.

[Airclues]

Should there be a requirement, on ferry flights, to carry at least one cabin crew member to check the cabin security prior to landing?

[BOAC]

NO. It is clearly laid down in most OMs that it is a flight crew responsibility. It is not that difficult!

[jetset lady]

It is not that difficult!

Now if we could just get you pilots to master the putting of the teapot under the brewer before switching it on when we aren't there, all would be perfect! ;)

[Piltdown Man]

I'll have you know that not only can I make tea (with and and without a teapot) but can also work the oven (and coffee brewer, if fitted). Yes, I am also a smug git.

PM

[BOAC]

master the putting of the teapot under the brewer - I was referring to simple tasks...................

[lowcostdolly]

Well it's been a while since I have been on here as am not flying at present.

I see the respect you have for the other half of the airborne team 411A is still as undisputable as ever......you must be a joy to fly with in the eyes of your "dime a dozen" CC :ugh:

I think JSL has more than answered your points and what's more she was big enough to admit a mistake was made on our flag carrier.....her employer actually. Have you ever heard of the phrase "there but for the grace of God go I" ?

Lets hope BA adopt a more forward thinking approach than you and investigate why this happened and address the appropriate findings in an open and constructive way. That way crew on both sides of the flight deck door who do hold responsibility here might actually learn something...... across the board in all companies as incidents of this nature could happen anywhere. They might even happen in yours 411A :oh:

We will never know though would we as you didn't answer JSL's question. The name of that infallible airline who employs equally infallible people that you work for is?

Procedures are only as good as the people who implement and follow them and people make mistakes at times for a variety of reasons......you might be one of them one day.

[411A]

...you must be a joy to fly with in the eyes of your "dime a dozen" CC


Oddly enough, the company has this opinion as well, if the CC don't tow the line, they are terminated, forthwith.
No backtalk allowed.
No strikes/slow-downs/crew discontent allowed...they either do the job in the way it is expected, or...they are shown the HR door, and told not to let it slap them on their backside on the way out.
Are many CC terminated?
A very few, because...their's is a valued position, jobwise, so, they behave themselves accordingly, and the ship seems to run very well.
Our CC have not lost sight of the fact that not only are they there for safety, but to actually serve our passengers in a professional manner, and not bit*h and moan about it.

[lowcostdolly]

Well good for you and your company 411A......you are on the same page apparently re how you view your CC :ugh:

We would still like to know who this enlightened company you work for is though but you don't seem to want to divulge......why would that be if you are all so proud of your company "HR" (your quote) stratedgy :confused:

[411A]

We would still like to know who this enlightened company you work for is though but you don't seem to want to divulge.

Two companies, actually...all ad-hoc charter contract flying.
Do a search, as it's been mentioned before, several times.:rolleyes:

[lowcostdolly]

411A I really can't be bothered to search your 8000 + posts to see which company you work for now.....you personally are so not that important despite your inflated ego :ugh:

Your company's approach to flight crew/CC relations is of interest though on this forum......over this side of the pond it's called CRM.

I'm sure there are many CC who would avoid working for a company whose Captain's view them with the same disdain you seem to and apparently you are supported by your HR dept??

We all know how highly (not) the beancounters in some company's view their CC but I personally have never seen this infiltrate the flight deck in all my years flying. That's a fundemental safety concern and I personally would not like to fly with that airline either as crew or a customer.

So please now tell 411A...which company do you represent so I can avoid flying with them as a customer?

[wiggy]

lowcostdolly....

..which company do you represent so I can avoid flying with them as a customer


Fear not, just stay away from anyone operating L-1011s and you'll be fine......(aka the Tristar on this side of the pond)