Doors opening in flight.

[graciefields]

Hi all. I'm a student pilot with not many hours in a Cessna 152.
Three times now in a week the door has popped open.
I know I'm strapped in and the plane still flies but is this a danger?
Seems a bit like slack work by the mechanics or am I wrong? The plane is a 1968 model.
Not sure I can trust the school if this keeps up.

[Gyro Drift]

graciefields,

It used to happen to me during my PPL training in the C152. Nothing to worry about, it was usually due to me not quite closing the door as firmly as I should. Happenned to my instructor on a few occasions as well:).

GD

[graciefields]

Thanks for that. Started to wonder if it was me being a nervous nelly or more of an issue with the aircraft itself.
Still not used to it though. haha

[Unusual Attitude]

Happend to me quite a bit in rental aircraft over the years, in fact on my third of fourth lesson the instructors door popped open just as we lifted off, he just told me to carry on flying whilst he took 4 or 5 attempts to slam the door shut.

Another flying club which I wont name had a C152 rental which was flying for a number of weeks with the passenger door held shut with packing tape.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

The one time it happened to me - and as a result of my own neglicence - my instructor tapped a nice lesson out of it: he first let me struggle the door against the wind, while steering the plane and gently asking who would be doing that if I were solo. When I began to get frustrated, he calmly told me to leave off, then put the plane in a rather pronounced side-slip and presto! the door shut all of its own.
This was in an FK-9, much like a C152 in appearance.

I have since learned that side-slipping can also be tried in case of engine fire - but I hope I need never try it.

[graciefields]

I was starting to think that I should be looking fot a newer aircraft to train in.
Got to admit that after a few hours I'm getting addicted to banking and turning. I'd better find some sticky tape then!
Thanks mate.

Yes, I've been reading up on getting into a yaw? and letting the air pressure do the rest.
I'm a rookie so I'd better find out for sure. Supposing I'm solo and it's the passenger door... Get longer arms! lol

[Jan Olieslagers]

"Newer"? Enough if you find one "in proper state of maintenance". Less easy, though, to judge by what I read here.

[willisp]

This happened to me on my second solo in a 152. I certainly paid more attention to shutting the door more firmly after that.

[IO540]

Slack mechanics?

Nooo, never heard of any such thing :) :) :) :) Cannot happen. All the companies have CAA approvals. Impossible!

This is pretty normal. I had a door problem in a PA28; it was just left. One of the two locks would sometimes jam...

[graciefields]

Got to admit that the absence of a Pilots door in a Piper Warrier had me concerned. It's got a whole new attraction now. Nice safety blanket! ;)

[Dan Winterland]

A very common problem with the Cessena. I've flown them with the doors removed. A bit draughty and makes map reading difficult, but it keeps you cool!

[mad_jock]

All the C150/152's that the door has popped open on me have had twisted airframes due to years of abuse in flying schools.

I used to brief students on the tendency of doors to pop open and also what they should do if it happened on the takeoff roll.

Although proberly not suitable in the UK due to the climate, about the only time C150's are none smelly and quite pleasant is when the doors are taken off. FAA land thats a couple of pins and very little paper work in the UK I presume it would be a complete pain in the backside.

[graciefields]

You're right there!
They do collect the water, in fact I was amazed by the instructor tipping the plane backwards and draining it out. hmm. Reminds me of my first car. That was a rust bucket too.

[Jan Olieslagers]

the passenger door held shut with packing tape.....
Right. Confirmed at the source of all wisdom:
Freefall 00874 November 10, 2003 (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff900/fv00874.htm)

[mad_jock]

Thats condensation from the students sweating :D

[graciefields]

I don't normally sweat from that low down.:eek: .... but I'm getting better!;)

[IO540]

When I was learning in Tomahawks, one used to find up to half an inch of water on the floor. So the plane stunk like public phone boxes used to before everybody got mobile phones.

It might have been sweat from students doing circuits ;)

Then one would drain anything up to a pint of water from the tanks before any avgas would start coming out. That was due to perished filler cap seals.

The best bit was a wire under the cowling which came out of a connector. I told them about it and their reply was: it only goes to the landing light; don't switch on the landing light...

But hey the operator had a CAA AOC for public transport so it was all completely safe.

[mad_jock]

Aye the joys.Well sweat is pee in undiluted form.

Our tommys have rather nice covers which are worth there weight in gold and arn't a PITA to get on and off. Ripping the carpets out and replacing with rubber floor matting helps heaps as well. Also if any aircraft is getting run for 5 hours a day it helps.

The wire off was proberly done by the owner to stop the bulbs going quite a common practise in schools its easier than swaping the bulb for a dud one.

To bew honest the schools that have there own maint on site are usually the worst for running snags and horrible barely legal aircraft. With Genghis thread on him getting ramped checked I really hope the CAA is actually going to start going round and not only doing ops inspections but also engineering ramp inspections as well.

[graciefields]

Thanks for the advice guys.
It's good to get some real views, instead of the Used car salesman routine.

[mad_jock]

Just to make sure your clear.

Usually they pop open when you rotate and the airframe flex's

You actions if this occurs is absolutely nothing.

You continue to fly as you would have done if it hadn't opened.
Then once your away from the ground and comfy in the cruise then think about shutting it.

If it pops on the takeoff roll its up to you but I would suggest if you are inexperence abort the departure get off the runway. Sort it out then have a quick 30secs to yourself and calm down then go off again.

[dkatwa]

passenger door opened on my QXC and luckily the map, on the right hand seat, did not fly out!:eek:

[graciefields]

Thanks Jock.
Last time it did pop on roation so I climbed to about 400 before trying to close it. Thought that would give me enough height to sort it out. Finally did but by then my tracking was all over the place.
At least I'll be ready next time.

You're right there. Must be a bit extreme if you're dropping parachutes.
being a rookie thought I'd check with real pilots about what is normal and what is not. Some flying schools seem to be more like Used Car salesmen than anything else.
I'm getting used to it.
Thanks.

[mad_jock]

400ft is way to low. Anyway if your engine stops you won't have to worry about popping the door before you plant it in a field.

Get your self sorted out, on track at altitude with a FREDA check out the way and then start fannying about trying to get it shut.

[Ty-Fry-Typhoon]

Never flown a Cessna before instructing, all Robins, PA28's & 38's so there I am on my first trial lesson and I say to the punter
"Would you like me to take your picture whilst your flying?"
"Sure" he says, and passes me the camera, So I get the snap with a view from the front, then the picture from over his shoulder, now its time for the side on snap, ah not enough room, not to worry after all Ive become something of an expert of taking these kind of pics of friends over the years, ill just lean back a tad and get as much room as I can, next thing the bloomin doors opening!
It happend again on rotation yesterday on another trial lesson, went to try and close it for about 2 seconds and just thought "Screw it, fly the **** heap and sort it once level"
Must remember to add gaffa tape to my flight bag!:ok:

[Contacttower]

I know I'm strapped in and the plane is still going to fly but is this normal? Wondered if the mechanics might be a bit slack or if I should choose another school?

In about 30hrs on the C152 in aircraft in three different countries I don't think I have ever had the door open in flight, shut properly and well maintained the doors should not be opening! So no I would not say that the number of times it's happened to you is normal.

Although on its own it doesn't matter that much it may be indicative of the general attitude of the school to maintenance.

[Ty-Fry-Typhoon]

SNS3Guppy (http://www.pprune.org/members/121895-sns3guppy) Thats the kind of post I like!
Ill try it out, after the first one I have to admit I was going for the "slam it hard" method, ill try out yours now, if it fails Ive got the gaffer tape on standby!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Door came open on a 152 when I was taking my first ever passenger for a ride.

As this had happened during training it didn't surprise or upset me, I just made sure he didn't drop anything out of the aircraft and explained that the seat belt was what stopped him falling out, the door was just to keep the draught off.

[trident3A]

I've had this happen several times, and also the seat slide back which is even worse. Once you're aware it can happen its not a problem

[Pitts2112]

Had it happen to me twice in training, once surprising, once embarrassing.

The first time was in the cruise, I think (it was nearly 20 years ago and old cranial hard drive ain't what it used to be). The door popped open and surprised me, but what nearly scared me to death was my instructor, a fun lass, shouting with glee right next to me! She was delighted that I'd had that distraction to contend with, as it was such a good training experience, and went on at length as to how she wished the 152 was equipped with some kind of mechanism for instructor-initiated door openings!

The second time was on my first cross country with said instructor, at first away-airport, taxying out to the hold, when not only did the door pop open but the chart made its bid for freedom and flung itself out the door and made a run for it aided by the slipstream. Great! Now what? I looked over at her and she smiled and said "Well, you better go get it then!". We were already stopped, she held the brakes, I unstrapped, nipped out the already-open door and trotted back about 100 feet behind the airplane to get the chart. All of this visible from the tower and nearby restaurant. Felt a bit of a prat, I did!

Still, happy days and managed to get my license despite self-opening doors.

Oh, yeah, and I keep my chart stuffed under my leg now when I'm not actively looking at it!

[Pilot DAR]

Guppy gave good information. Try to always open the window, to get a firm grip on the door frame itself. That little handle inside is not as tough as it looks.

Playing with the rudder will ease the effort, but considerable co-ordination is required. When I flew jump 182/185, the upward swinging door could be very precisely opened and closed with the rudder pedals.

[Mike Cross]

152 is the only aircraft I've had it happen to me on and I wouldn't describe it as abnormal. As others have said, don't try to close it until you are at a safe height. It doesn't affect handling and it doesn't open that far either.

Of more concern is the seat rolling back or the seat back failing. I used to fly a Robin DR400. That has a sliding canopy. When you get in the position of the top of the screen means you can only just about stand upright without falling over backwards. Sitting down requires you to support yourself with your arms. Too many people put a hand on the seat back to take their weight as they slide down. After parking one day I leaned back in the seat to release the canopy latch and bang - I was flat on my back. The seat back joint had snapped due to fatigue. If that happened shortly after take-off the results could be fatal, as they have been where the seat has rolled back.

[austerwobbler]

I had it happen in a 152 whilst on a lesson , i had my map, knee board, ruler pens and stopwatch "all usual student paraphernalia between the door and my leg and nearly lost the bl***dy lot ! :eek: I learned from that !

Austerwobbler :ok:

[graciefields]

Thanks guys. I'll put it down to experience and concentrate on flying the thing.

[AdamFrisch]

Popped open for me on my recent UK flight as well. I was scudding under a cloud and was in a descent when it happened - startled me quite a bit. Luckily, it doesn't go far when in the yellow arc. Same flight also lost vacuum pump and had gusting to 30 knots crosswind on landing, so it was all rather exciting.

Landing was so ungraceful I briefly considered revoking my own license.:)

[SNS3Guppy]

A windshield failed in a Cessna 421 I was flying, last year. It blew out under pressure. It took the top of the glareshield and instrument panel with it (as well as some of the interior). On the glareshield was the checklist...so no checklist.

The cabin door on Seneca's is notoriously weak. The upper latch particularly has a habit on some airplanes of popping open. I flew a Seneca II doing ambulance work on a large Indian reservation, and had to pick up an infant from a remote field. The infant was in an isolette, and the airplane needed to be kept quite warm. The pickup was in the middle of winter. Enroute with the patient and mother, the door popped open.

The door has low pressure surrounding it's surface, particularly the upper radius, and it was drawing the warm air out...which the tempermental Janitrol heater had trouble replacing. We landed at an unattended airstrip, and I attempted to make a repair to the latch, which had failed. We took off, and the latch failed again.

I attempted to seal off the open edges using medical tape, but after several minutes, the tape was sucked out with a bang. The door opened a little more. I tried using sectional charts to block the open space. These stayed up simply by placing the chart over the opening, while the suction held them in place. This worked fine, using about a dozen charts, until the door opened more with a bang and all my charts were gone. As a last resort (nowhere to land now, over snow covered mountains and in and out of weather) I removed my coat and used that to seal the opening, when the door failed and out went the coat. I managed to retain one sleeve and pull the coat back into the airplane, where I used it to place over the infant isolette to shield it from the cold.

On the slamming door; I've seen door's completely broken on 150's and 152's from closing them too focefully. they tend to crack internally, diagonally across the door. They're not exactly overbuilt. Use caution with them, and remember that a door opening in flight isn't really the end of the world...think of it like a realistic distraction that your instructor may have used during your flight training, and nothing more.

If you're doing instrument work, bear in mind that the open door can alter your instrument readings, especially if you're using an alternate static source.

[wannabepilot18]

at least piper warriors dont have that problem. it can only occur if you dont lock the door properly........

[Pilot DAR]

piper warriors dont have that problem

Well, yes, though if you do have a low wing Piper door pop open, it will be very much more difficult to get it closed in flight than the Cessna door.

[Tasslehoff]

Maybe the 152 was just dreaming of being a skydiving plane...:rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

I leave the top lock open sometimes on purpose in a PA38.

[baldwinm]

I've had a top lock open on a nearly new Cirrus. Couldn't close it in flight - diverted to shut it on the ground (was an alignment problem I think). I recall someone in the U.S had a door open in IMC shortly after takeoff - became disorientated (probably through fiddling with the door) and ended up pulling the chute.

Had a similar thing in an Archer - followed the "procedure" - opened the Clear vision panel, reduced airspeed etc but still couldn't get the darned thing shut until back on the ground.

Neither was a big issue - just a nuisance.

[Maoraigh1]

"I leave the top lock open sometimes on purpose in a PA38."
I'm intrigued. Any reason?

[Lister Noble]

I learned to fly in a PA28 and the top lock is not easy to secure from the pilots seat.
I had it pop open on my first or second solo and carried on flying,CFI said I should have landed at once,I thought the slipstream would keep it shut,but apparently the Bernoulli (spelling?) effect can make it open.

[mad_jock]

I'm intrigued. Any reason?

It can get like a sauna in the thing even in the middle of winter if the sun is out. Flying in the highlands dress to survive and all that.

If you have the vents full on you can still be sweating. If you leave the top open there is more air flow through the vents because of the venture effect through the top.

[Pilot DAR]

and ended up pulling the chute.

Oh yeah... the "I give up, I don't want to be a pilot any more" handle.

[dypen]

In the checklist on PA-28 there is a guide for how to close the door in the air, the first point is to reduce speed!

I do not know how it is on the C152 to close the door in the air, must the speed reduced ?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I do not know how it is on the C152 to close the door in the air, must the speed reduced ?
Just shut the door is my recollection.

[asyncio]

I do not know how it is on the C152 to close the door in the air, must the speed reduced ? The POH says...

Accidental opening of a cabin door in flight due to improper closing does not constitute a need to land the airplane. The best procedure is to set up the plane in a trimmed condition at approximately 65 KIAS, momentarily shove the door outward slightly, and forcefully close the door. Although the only time I've had it happen it was with an instructor in the RHS, and he just stuck his hand out the window and slammed it shut again, at normal cruise speed.

[rich_g85]

I seem to recall that the procedure for closing an open door in the PA-28 is to slow to 68 knots, open the storm window and then shut the door.

[mad_jock]

How the hell do you manage to get the door open in a PA28 by accident?

[Windy Militant]

How the hell do you manage to get the door open in a PA28 by accident?
Dunno how but it happened to me and a mate on a jolly out of Wellesbourne. A quick circuit, land, onto the taxiway check the latches reshut the door and off to go again. Probably hadn't got the latch properly engaged first time round.
I seem to recall that you can steer a C150 by opening and closing the doors and you can use the windows on some as an ASI by seeing how far up they hang in the airflow when opened.
Once at old Sarum I was about to go up for a revalidation flight in a C150 when I was informed there would be a slight delay as the student before me had pulled the door jetison lever instead of the handle. Wait one for a large magnet to find the safety spring clip in the grass! :hmm:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I seem to recall that you can steer a C150 by opening and closing the doors
Well, it's in the book for steering a floatplane when going backwards on the water, but I've not heard it recommended as a standard technique for steering whilst in the air.

[Pilot DAR]

Quote:
I seem to recall that you can steer a C150 by opening and closing the doors
Well, it's in the book for steering a floatplane when going backwards on the water, but I've not heard it recommended as a standard technique for steering whilst in the air.


Well... Yes. I had weighed the plusses and minusses of presenting that whole concept, as it has no real use in flight, other than as a learning exercise in aerodynamics. There is some potential for damaging a door, and I would rather not take responsibility for that.

That having been said, as I happen to own a C-150 door, which is convenienly attached to an airworthy C-150, I can attest that gently opening the left door about 6 inches, at cruise speed, will cause the airplane to gently bank to the right. Readers are welcome to postulate as to why right rather than left, without overstressing another C-150 door, (or instructor).

As for on the water, yes, but again, very limited use. It's one of those things where if you really need to do it, things are probably beyond the point where it will help anyway....