POH on board in UK?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I spent this morning flying with a certain flying school, who I personally think are pretty well managed and run, with fairly decent aeroplanes.

One thing that school does is have all of the aircraft manuals, correctly amended, on a shelf accessible to everybody. And, quite rightly, students are encouraged to read them! Usually sat there with a coffee. All, in my opinion, excellent practice.


Now, when I returned from my flight, there was a CAA inspector who'd turned up to ramp (actually paperwork) check a selection of aeroplanes, including the one I'd just flown.

Going through the paperwork, he commented to the manager of the school in my hearing that they were probably routinely illegal, since they weren't flying with the POH on board and accessible to the captain.

Now, I know this is a rule in the USA, but I don't recall it ever being a rule in the UK? So I asked - and was told that since 2008 when EASA took over most of GA, they've taken on foreign flight manuals without any amendment - and so if the FAA manual (e.g. all Pipers and Cessnas) says the manual must be kept within the aircraft, then that is now the law. The CAA chap claimed this was buried in EASA regulations and calmly told me that I'd therefore just flown illegally (in a manner which politely indicated however that because he was such a nice chap, he wasn't going to take action over it).


We then had a healthy argument about the safety benefits of the manual being in the aeroplane, versus the flying school, before he politely told me to clear off and let him get on with his job - which I had to do anyway!



I've just had a look on the CAA's website, where I can find nothing stating this (e.g. the documents section of the safety sense leaflet on airmanship) I then went to my CPL course notes and find that there is a requirement in JAR-Ops-1 to carry the POH. However, JAR-Ops-1 only applies to commercial air transport over 10 tonnes, not to me flying privately or even so far as I know to pretty much any flying training.


So, was he right and I'm flying illegally? If so has anybody actually been telling us this? I *think* I'm more informed than most about GA airworthiness, and it really is the first I've heard of it as a light aircraft legal requirement within the United Kingdom.

G

[S-Works]

My POH lives in the aircraft and I have always been under the understanding it had to be there.

[mykul10]

sounds like you handled the situation well, but if the flight had been commercial (AOC) then you would have been bound by EU-Ops, not JAR-Ops.

Anyway, it was a private flight so go to ANO:-

Article 86 (2) refers to Schedule 10
Article 86(3) States that if a private flight begins and ends at the same aerodrome as does not pass over the territory of any country other than UK, then Flight Manual can be kept at the aerodrome.

When people (CAA inspectors or others) challenge me on regulations, I usually thank them for their advice and politely ask them to point to the appropriate document so that I might read it for myself. If I am wrong or just didn't know, then I have learnt something. If not.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just looked up EU-Ops...

OPS 1.130

Manuals to be carried

An operator shall ensure that:

1. the current parts of the Operations Manual relevant to the duties of the crew are carried on each flight;

2. those parts of the Operations Manual which are required for the conduct of a flight are easily accessible to the crew on
board the aeroplane; and

3. the current Aeroplane Flight Manual is carried in the aeroplane unless the Authority has accepted that the Operations Manual prescribed in OPS 1.1045, Appendix 1, Part B contains relevant information for that aeroplane.

So, assuming that flying school operations (I was getting some instruction) comes under EU ops - which isn't explicitly either stated or denied, presumably the question is whether EU-Ops, or the ANO takes precendent?

As it happens, I also just looked up Appendix 1 part B, and the school have their own student manuals (approved by CAA for CPL training purposes), which contain everything in Appendix 1 Part B. So presumably they only actually need to carry one of those for non-private flights?

G

['India-Mike]

Oooh, Genghis vs CAA flight ops inspector. I'd love to have been in that room:E

[BillieBob]

Anyway, it was a private flight so go to ANO:-Actually, it's probably best to go to an up to date copy of the ANO - 'Documents to be carried' is now dealt with by Article 150.

Article 150(2) states that an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom must, when in flight, carry documents in accordance with Schedule 9. Schedule 9 lists the documents to be carried on a public transport flight, an aerial work flight and a private flight which is international air navigation. Significantly, it does not mention at all a private flight which is not international air navigation, meaning that there is no legal requirement to carry any documents on such a flight.

There are no EASA documents yet in force that relate to either private or aerial work operations. EU-OPS is relevant only to public transport flights and so, in the case of flight instruction, which is aerial work, ANO Article 150 still applies. The documents referred to in Scedule 9 in respect of an aerial work flight do not include the POH/Flight Manual/etc. and so you were acting perfectly legally.

mykul10 gives good advice - in cases such as this, ask the inspector to quote you the appropriate reference. In my experience they will often be unable to do so because they are basing their statements solely on some misunderstood comment they've heard around the corridors of the Belgrano. It would be interesting to know whether this individual was a Flight Operations Inspector, a Licensing Standards Inspector or a Surveyor.

[bookworm]

So, assuming that flying school operations (I was getting some instruction) comes under EU ops - which isn't explicitly either stated or denied, presumably the question is whether EU-Ops, or the ANO takes precendent?

EU-OPS covers commercial air transportation only, not flight training.

As far as the situation on POHs go, it's a fun question.

The ANO Schedule 9 says (in note b):

"An EASA aircraft is required by virtue of Part 21 to carry its certificate of airworthiness or restricted certificate of airworthiness during all flights."

It also says in para 3:

"If the certificate of airworthiness includes the flight manual for the aircraft and with the permission of the CAA, an aircraft [with an ops manual] need not carry the flight manual as part of [the national certificate of airworthiness]."

Certainly in the past, the limitations set out in the flight manual were considered to form part of the C of A, hence the second comment.

But I don't think the EASA C of A incorporates the flight manual, does it? I don't have one to hand. If it did incorporate the flight manual,

Art 16(7) "An aircraft registered in the United Kingdom with an EASA certificate of airworthiness must not fly otherwise than in accordance with any conditions or limitations contained in its flight manual unless otherwise permitted by the CAA."

would not be necessary, would it? But equally, one could argue that Art 16(7) means that if the flight manual says that it must be carried on the aircraft, then it must.

This debate is time-limited in that EASA OPS will take over from the ANO on these requirements from April 2012. The carriage of the flight manual will be an explicit requirement, though there will be, if all goes according to plan, some helpful alleviations.

[B2N2]

Amazing (and funny) how Inspectors from either CAA or FAA are thousands of miles apart but think the same.
The "I've heard it so it must be a rule" attitude.
I usually very politely thank them and ask them to show me the regs they claim to be the gospel. Then we usually get into the discussion where I say "that's not what it says".

[Genghis the Engineer]

As an aside, one of this chap's arguments were that if subjected to a spot-check inspection in France, they would almost certainly impound a (G-registered) EASA aeroplane without the POH on board.

Any truth in that that anybody knows?

G

[bookworm]

The flight manual is an ICAO Annex 6 Part II requirement for international air navigation.

2.4.2.2 Aeroplanes on all flights shall be equipped with:
...
d) the following manuals, charts and information:
1) the flight manual or other documents or information concerning any operating limitations prescribed for the aeroplane by the certificating authority of the State of Registry, required for the application of Chapter 2.3;
...

Chapter 2.3 is AEROPLANE PERFORMANCE OPERATING LIMITATIONS.

Of course that's not the same as saying "they would almost certainly impound a (G-registered) EASA aeroplane without the POH on board".

[hoodie]

Since 1985, the only times I've ever come across "ARROW" have been in FAA-land.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I still find the UK attitude about POH's quite amazing. Since most of the POH emergency checklists also include an expanded section with additional detail, how is a pilot going to be able to consult it during an inflight problem/emergency if it is sitting on the flying club shelf? Also if the aircraft unexpectedly goes to another another airport how can the pilot do any W & B and takeoff/landing calculations with no manual to consult ?

The POH is not some obscure technical reference document, it is the document that the maker provides to tell you how to operate the aircraft. Why on earth would you not require it to be always carried in the aircraft ?

[Human Factor]

But equally, one could argue that Art 16(7) means that if the flight manual says that it must be carried on the aircraft, then it must.

A thousand letters to the CAA requesting an alleviation from the aforementioned article would likely result in a rule change to prevent the 6% profit margin being eroded by overtime payments. :E


Since most of the POH emergency checklists also include an expanded section with additional detail, how is a pilot going to be able to consult it during an inflight problem/emergency if it is sitting on the flying club shelf?

I would suggest that your typical PPL is going to have a lot more on his mind than thumbing through the expanded QRH during single pilot ops when something untoward occurs. Especially in that either an autopilot won't be fitted or whatever is causing the need for the POH will have probably rendered it u/s.

While the theory of the POH on board is perhaps sound, in practice it is less so, particularly in single pilot private ops. In my experience, the only time I will reach for the POH (FCOM in my case) after using the ECAM or QRH is if I have time (as it is not an insignificant tome - neither is it small on a C172) and the other pilot is concentrating on the "Aviate" part.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I still find the UK attitude about POH's quite amazing. Since most of the POH emergency checklists also include an expanded section with additional detail, how is a pilot going to be able to consult it during an inflight problem/emergency if it is sitting on the flying club shelf? Also if the aircraft unexpectedly goes to another another airport how can the pilot do any W & B and takeoff/landing calculations with no manual to consult ?

The POH is not some obscure technical reference document, it is the document that the maker provides to tell you how to operate the aircraft. Why on earth would you not require it to be always carried in the aircraft ?

I don't think that anybody is arguing that sufficient aircraft data shouldn't be kept on board.

My personal issue is with a CAA inspector apparently making up policy on the hoof (or, equally bad, policy changes being so deeply buried in long documents that nobody's quite clear what they should be doing); if this is to be a rule there are perfectly good ways to publish it, then we all know what we should be doing.

I admit, personally I'd rather see the official manuals kept safe inside a dry, non-flying, building. There's a really clever modern device called a "photocopier" that allows an up to date copy to be kept on board the aeroplane, but if it gets scribbled on, rained on, thrown up on, left behind, or eaten by mice - then it can readily be replaced. Given that the average light aircraft manual is updated about every decade, maintaining document control shouldn't be overly difficult either.

I certainly also believe that either the original or a copy should be kept on the shelf in a flying organisation - then it's possible to access it to plan future flights whilst the aeroplane is away.

G

[patowalker]

As an aside, one of this chap's arguments were that if subjected to a spot-check inspection in France, they would almost certainly impound a (G-registered) EASA aeroplane without the POH on board.

Any truth in that that anybody knows?


I doubt the aircraft would be impounded for such an oubli, unless the pilot argued that he did not need to have it on board.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I While the theory of the POH on board is perhaps sound, in practice it is less so, particularly in single pilot private ops. In my experience, the only time I will reach for the POH (FCOM in my case) after using the ECAM or QRH is if I have time (as it is not an insignificant tome - neither is it small on a C172) and the other pilot is concentrating on the "Aviate" part.

Sorry but I could not disagree more. Electrical malfunctions are a perfect exampel where one should consult the POH before doing anything, even in simple aircraft. The C172S POH for example devotes 2 pages in the amplified emergency procedures sections to electric malfunctions. If you bumbling along in cruise and you think you may an electrical problem I would suggest the first thing you should do is the emerg checklist and then consult the POH amplified procedures section to get the whole picture. Sure there are lots of situations when you have more important things to do then read the POH, but time and circumstances permitting the last line on every emerg checklsit should be a POH page reference. I can see now why the Carb Heat thread on the instructors forum is full of such silliness. It is obvious most posters have no idea what their aircraft POH actually says, so I wonder if this is a result of a culture where the priority is keeping the POH safe and prisitine on the shelf, not what it should be .....the well thumbed go to reference for how to operate the aircraft.....

[bookworm]

I still find the UK attitude about POH's quite amazing. ... The POH is not some obscure technical reference document, it is the document that the maker provides to tell you how to operate the aircraft.

I have a certain sympathy for that. However, the devil is in the detail.

In the case of our 1966 Twin Comanche, I have two documents that tell me how to operate the aircraft. One is a 1960s "Owners Manual" provided by Piper, the other a much more recent POH developed by the International Comanche Society. Both are excellent reads, cover to cover.

By contrast, the official Aircraft Flight Manual, which I am (or perhaps, am not?!) required to carry, contains the almost suicidal take-off technique developed to cope with a paper increase in Vmca, tells me in 20-odd pages how to construct an engine out flight path that clears obstacles that don't exist, declares a nominal speed for flight over water that featured in a regulation that disappeared 20 years ago, and reminds me, quite succinctly I must confess, that the minimum crew for the operation of the aircraft is one pilot. It is, to all intents and purposes, an obscure technical document!

[Rod1]

“Electrical malfunctions are a perfect exampel where one should consult the POH before doing anything, even in simple aircraft.”

I would hope that pilots would have made themselves aware of its contents so they could deal with the problem without the book. My POH (is so much as it exists) contains nothing on the electrical system at all, but flying without an idea of the issues would be foolhardy, as would trying to fly VFR using see and avoid with your head in a book!

Rod1

[Human Factor]

....but time and circumstances permitting the last line on every emerg checklsit should be a POH page reference.

I think we're possibly in violent agreement. Where we perhaps disagree are the "circumstances". Simply that in the realms of "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" in an aircraft which is not behaving itself, thumbing through to find Chapter 4, Subsection 6, Paragraph 3 after you have already secured the aircraft from it's failure by carrying out the appropriate QRH drill is going to cause some detriment to the "Aviate" part.

I fully agree with your "circumstances permitting" but I put forward the notion that while an experienced PPL will likely have the judgement to determine whether the circumstances do in fact permit some serious eyes down, an inexperienced PPL or a student may not. If the manual is on board, there may be a point where it can be a useful reference but in the open FIR, IMHO keeping a good lookout and distraction management should be a greater priority than trying to find an obscure paragraph in the POH after you've completed the QRH drill.

[Pilot DAR]

In addition to the foregoing, I will add that for many aircraft I know of (most Cessnas for certain), the Type Certificate Data Sheet specifies the flight manual as required equipment (meaning thou shalt not fly without it aboard). It does not offer that you may carry a copy.

Therefore, without a flight manual, the aircraft does not meet it's type design, and is therefore not legally airworthy.

A multi engined turbine aircraft with which I am associated, is operated by it's operator with substitute documents for the flight manual (hance I could not find the actual flight manual aboard, when it should have been there). The result was that the substitute document omitted an item on the after landing checklist, and thousands of dollars of damage was done to the aircraft because it was left on errantly. Had the pilots refered to the actual flight manual, it would have been turned off.

Flight manual has to be aboard....

[Andy H]

No one seems to have mentioned the impossibility of carrying a large manual in some of the leisure aircraft we see in our sky. Where would you put this tome in a Tiger Moth so it could be accessed and read? Or a Turbulent? Or a microlight?

Some basic common sense needs to be added into the equation

Andy

[Jan Olieslagers]

Flight manual has to be aboard....

... or check if the secretary's Xeroxing license is still valid. Or is Xeroxing a rating on a secretary's license?

[Rod1]

“do folks actually bother to do a valid W&B for the specific aircraft!.”

My W & B graph is mounted on the rear bulkhead, I also have an electronic version on my netbook. In my class of aircraft it is mandatory to have the data on a placard in the cockpit.

Rod1

[asyncio]

how do folks do a correct W&B etc for the specific aircraft

At my local club, they have copied all the W&B figures onto a reference sheet so you've got your own personal copy of the figures for all of the aircraft.

So I guess the question then is, does everyone do this or not?

[Jan Olieslagers]

In PPL ground class I did loads of W&B calcs, though I enjoyed it less than navigation dead reckoning.
When the time came to actually go flying I found the budget insufficient, waited for a couple of years then took up ultralight flying. In three year's time, at three aerodromes, I never saw anybody doing or even mentioning a weight & balance calculation. Neither did my instructors, still less the examinator.
Not sure I'd remember how to do it, today.
But all those Rotax-powered two-seaters are over their legal 450 kgs anyway, with two people aboard and fuel for more than half an hour. THAT was said at all three airfield bars!
Andy H. is quite right: before adding weight to a plane already at the limits of legality, we should make sure it can be of any use.

[Rod1]

“But all those Rotax-powered two-seaters are over their legal 450 kgs anyway, with two people aboard and fuel for more than half an hour. THAT was said at all three airfield bars!”

So tell me are all Rotax powered two seaters limited to 450kg?

Rod1

[Jan Olieslagers]

That is the legal max. gross for 2-seat ultralights in most European countries. An increase to 472,5 kg was allowed by Germany for installation of a BSR*, and several countries have followed suit.

The point is rather moot, because most of these airframes were designed for 500-600 kg gross anyway. And with the upcoming ELSA things will change once again, no doubt.

*or was that a BRS? Well, anyway, an emergency parachute system.

[Maoraigh1]

"The C172S POH for example devotes 2 pages in the amplified emergency procedures sections to electric malfunctions. "
If I had an electrical problem, VFR, solo, in a C172, the last thing I would do is read 2 pages. I fear the last thing I read might be half way down page 1, when aviating came to a sudden end.

[Keef]

I've never bothered to check, but was told by our engineering outfit that the POH is part of the C of A and must therefore always be carried on those flights where the C of A must.

Since I'm a simple soul, everything that might have to be carried on one flight or another lives in the aeroplane. Keeps it simple for me. The POH is in the boot, as is the docs folder with a raft of other paperwork - even spare W&B sheets, takeoff and landing performance graphs, and such.

[172driver]

I always have the POH in the a/c and to hand, i.e. accessible and will not accept a/c w/o it. Has helped in the past.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The C172S POH for example devotes 2 pages in the amplified emergency procedures sections to electric malfunctions.
So, if I'm on my own, the POH is on the RHS where any bumps or upsets could result in it going on the floor and fouling the rudder pedals. Hmm. Two up? - it's on the back seat where neither of us can reach it. Four up? it's in the luggage compartment where nobody can reach it.

Three up? Ah, that works. The only practical scenario, it seems to me, is having someone sitting in the back and the manuals on the other back seat, and the passenger in the back can then find and hand you the right book.

Of course if I knew in advance that it was an electrical problem I was going to meet that day I could have copies of those two pages on my clipboard ... but maybe if I knew in advance that I was going to have an electrical problem I'd just take a different aircraft.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Not a criiticism but obviously a big difference between what is done in the UK compared to what is legally required in the US before every flight where you have to carry a completed W&B and be prepared to produce it on a ramp check.
Without the POH - in addition to creating a W&B etc, you need the POH in order to determine take off distances, time fuel distance to climb etc and documented cruise burns at various temps.
Really, a requirement for every flight?

What about:

"I know that two adults in the front and full fuel leaves plenty to spare, because I did the sums once upon a time. I know the take-off distance is going to be lots less than the 2km of tarmac available, because it is for every possible scenario. I know that full tanks is enough fuel for four or five hours, so it really doesn't matter exactly how much it takes to climb to 2,000' when I'm only going flying for an hour."

?

Every American farmer going for a quick flight from their strip does all that paperwork for every trip do they?

[B2N2]

Yes Gertrude the Wombat it is.
If you allow me to use your own words against you (just this once I promise)

I know that two adults in the front and full fuel leaves plenty to spare, because I did the sums once upon a time. I know the take-off distance is going to be lots less than the 2km of tarmac available, because it is for every possible scenario. I know that full tanks is enough fuel for four or five hours, so it really doesn't matter exactly how much it takes to climb to 2,000' when I'm only going flying for an hour.

The only way that you would have known all of the above is by referencing the POH.
And you'll need the POH to prove you're correct when asked by an FAA Inspector (or CAA your choice).....................:ok:

In addition to the foregoing, I will add that for many aircraft I know of (most Cessnas for certain), the Type Certificate Data Sheet specifies the flight manual as required equipment (meaning thou shalt not fly without it aboard).

Absolutely true, you can find your plane's TCDS here:
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame


Piper Pa28 (all series):

The following placards must be displayed in clear view of the pilot:
In Normal Category Aircraft
"THIS AIRPLANE MUST BE OPERATED AS A NORMAL CATEGORY AIRPLANE IN
COMPLIANCE WITH OPERATING LIMITATIONS STATED IN THE FORM OF PLACARDS,
MARKINGS, AND MANUAL."
In aircraft certificated in both Normal and Utility Categories
"THIS AIRPLANE MUST BE OPERATED AS A NORMAL OR UTILITY CATEGORY AIRPLANE IN
COMPLIANCE WITH OPERATING LIMITATIONS STATED IN THE FORM OF PLACARDS,
MARKINGS, AND MANUALS."
Reference AFM for additional required placards.

You just try to convince me that you can remember all the limitations in flight without referring to the POH/AFM?


Here's the kicker, once again the Pa28 series (yes, all of them):
Page 36:
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulation
(see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification.
In addition, the following documents are required:

MODEL AFM/POH REPORT NO. APPROVED SERIAL EFFECTIVITY
PA-28-140 AFM VB-160 2/14/64 28-20001 through 28-26946, and 28-
7125001
through 28-7125641
AFM VB-339 7/21/71 28-7225001 through 28-7325674
AFM VB-557 5/14/73 28-7425001 through 28-7625275
POH VB-770 6/16/76 28-7725001 through 28-7725290
PA-28-150 AFM VB-166 6/2/61 28-1 through 28-4377
PA-28-151 AFM VB-573 7/25/73 28-7415001 through 28-7615435
POH VB-780 6/18/80 28-7715001 through 28-7715314
PA-28-160 AFM VB-168 10/25/60 28-1 through 28-4377, and 28-1760A
PA-28S-160 AFM VB-177 2/25/63 28-1 through 28-1760, and 28-1760A
PA-28-161 POH VB-880 12/16/76 28-7716001 through 28-8216300
POH VB-1180 7/1/82 28-8316001 through 28-8616057, and
2816001 through 2816119
POH VB-1610 7/12/95 2842001 and up
POH Supp. VB-1546 6/30/92 28-8316001 through 28-8616057, and
2816001 through 2816119 (See NOTE 28)
POH VB-1360 9/9/88 2841001 through 2841365
POH Supp. VB-1545 5/29/92 2841001 through 2841365 (See NOTE 28)
POH VB-1565 7/1/94 2816110 through 2816119
PA-28-180 AFM VB-163 8/3/62 28-671 through 28-5600
AFM VB-210 4/22/69 28-5601 through 28-5859, and 28-
7105001 through 28-7205091
AFM VB-355 9/1/71 28-7205092 through 28-7205318
AFM VB-437 5/22/72 28-7305001 through 28-7305601
and 28-E13
AFM VB-558 5/14/73 28-7405001 through 28-7505260
PA-28S-180 AFM VB-179 5/10/63 28-671 through 28-5859, and
28-7105001 through 28-7105234
PA-28-181 POH VB-760 8/15/75 28-7690001 through 28-7690467
POH VB-790 6/18/76 28-7790001 through 28-7990589
POH VB-1120 7/2/79 28-8090001 through 28-8690056,
28-8690061, 28-8690062, and
2890001 through 2890205
VB-1611 7/12/95 2843001 and up
POH VB-1563 8/19/94 2890206 through 2890231
PA-28R-180 AFM VB-173 6/8/67 28R-30001 through 28R-31270, and
28R-7130001 through 28R-7130013
PA-28R-200 AFM VB-175 1/9/69 28R-35001 through 28R-35820, and
28R-7135001 through 28R-7135229
AFM VB-343 10/14/71 28R-7235001 through 28R-7335446
AFM VB-560 5/14/73 28R-7435001 through 28R-7635545
PA-28R-201 POH VB-870 12/21/76 28R-7737001 through 28R-7837317
POH VB-1365 9/15/88 2837001 through 2837061
POH VB-1612 7/12/95 2844001 and up

and it continues page after page.

For the aircraft to meet it's Type Certificate Data Sheet the POH/AFM is required. If not the airplane is not airworthy.

I rest my case and yes...I take donations.

[Big Pistons Forever]

"The C172S POH for example devotes 2 pages in the amplified emergency procedures sections to electric malfunctions. "
If I had an electrical problem, VFR, solo, in a C172, the last thing I would do is read 2 pages. I fear the last thing I read might be half way down page 1, when aviating came to a sudden end.

I find it discouraging that you feel that with the aircraft in trimmed level cruise flight you would not feel confident enough in your abilty to maintain control of the aircraft, to be able to go to the emergency procedures index, which is always in section 3 in a 1976 or later light aircraft, look up "elecrical power supply malfunction malfunction" and then go to the correct page (3-11) and read 3 paragraphs worth of information that will provide additional context to what has happened so that the decision you make on how to proceed will be an informed one.

I have little patience for those who fly some old/unusual aircraft and say their manual has little usefull information. Obviously in those cases you don't have a choice....but I bet the majority of the folks reading the private pilot form are flying in a 1976 or later Cessna or Piper, all of which have a GAMA standard full POH, which IMO they should be familar enough to know what material is in it and again when appropriate and circumstances permit, should consult when an in flight problem occurs and before flight for those occasions when non standard conditions exist.

The POH is a pilot resource like the Maintainance Engineer, the Met Man etc etc. Most of the information comes from the makers engineering test pilots, so I find it very puzzling why so many posters seems to think the idea of using the POH, especially in flight, so crazy (with the strong understanding that this should never interfere with aviate,navigate,communicate)

[MarcK]

Not a criiticism but obviously a big difference between what is done in the UK compared to what is legally required in the US before every flight where you have to carry a completed W&B and be prepared to produce it on a ramp check.
Not true. What you need is the current "Weight and Balance and Installed Equipment Data sheet" for your airplane. And the loading graph showing the moment arms for each item you might load (front seats, fuel, rear seats, baggage). You do not need to carry a "filled out" W&B form. You could have done the W&B on your calculator, and that's fine.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I never saw anybody doing or even mentioning a weight & balance calculation. Neither did my instructors, still less the examinator.
Not sure I'd remember how to do it, today.Not a criiticism but obviously a big difference between what is done in the UK compared to what is legally required in the USSoCal, just to be clear: I am not in the UK, and I fly (European) ultralights. I do have seen PPL'ers round here doing their W&B sheets.

[Maoraigh1]

"I find it discouraging that you feel that with the aircraft in trimmed level cruise flight you would not feel confident enough in your abilty to maintain control of the aircraft,"
On several of my last C172 flights, there was enough turbulence to need constant hand control. (West Colorado/Utah August/September.) Without an autopilot, reeading 2 pages of tech data seems risky compared to switching off the masters and diverting to a suitable non-radio place to sort things out. (If the electrical problem is not fixable from memory, or cannot just be left)
I usually fly a DR1050, which, if left to its own, does not stay straight and level.

[Johnm]

My PA28 contains a POH and whole load of other guff I once worked out I needed to carry.

I practice I wouldn't refer to the POH in flight as I carry separate copies of the checklists in a little bound book.

The POH also doesn't tell you useful stuff like which way the heater controls work when the placards have worn off:ugh:

As to weight and balance I set up Navbox proplan to do it and carry a full load and normal load version my bag! I'll also use the POH performance graphs and CAA safety sense factors if things look at all marginal. This last bit I strongly recommend and can say from experience that 2 up full fuel in 180 horse PA28 on a 800 metre grass runway can be very marginal in some conditions!

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is, in my opinion, a certain amount of cobblers being written here.

I have to hand here an AA5 POH - using this as an example, what might I ever use in flight or on a landaway?

Section 1 - general. Nope.
Section 2 - limitations. Nope, all this is placarded.
Section 3 - emergencies. I definitely need all this information. That's 17 pages, but strangely I've memorised most of it with an abbreviated version on my checklist.
Section 4 - normal procedures. Nope, the key points are on my checklist, the rest I've learned.
Section 5 - performance. Not in flight, except maybe the landing performance - but certainly for planning on the ground.
Section 6 - W&CG. Nope - if I'm to carry out a W&CG calculation, I need empty weight & CG, fuel, seat and baggage moment arms, CG limits and MTOW. That's 9 numbers, not the 19 pages I have here.
Section 7 - description. Nope.
Section 8 - handling and maintenance. Not in flight or a simple landaway, no.
Section 9 - supplements. I should learn the A/P and if it misbehaves, pull the CB not try and figure it out in flight. I probably should have the 3 pages of CAA amended performance figures. Except that EASA have probably superceded them when I wasn't looking.
Section 10 - safety. Looking through, this is all learning stuff, so no.

So, basically, I need a good checklist, the key performance numbers, and 9 numbers to allow me to do a W&CG calculation.

In other words, pretty much what I used to have in a military checklist, and always fly with now.


And please, let's not claim either that nobody ever does a weight and balance calculation, nor that some people do a calculation absolutely every time they fly. We all know that neither is true - anybody flying an aeroplane they know, 2PoB with mid tanks (or whatever common calculation) knows very well they're in limits. Equally, we all know that for exceptional loadings, or a test - of-course we do calculations.

G

[Rod1]

"There is, in my opinion, a certain amount of cobblers being written here."

Good post:ok::ok::ok:

Rod1

[Pilot DAR]

Did someone say "cobblers"? My mom makes the best peach cobbler! That reminds me, it's been a while since I've visited her....

On my CPL flight test, which I did on my Cessna 150 just a few weeks ago, I was required to demonstrate computation of a W&B - seems an obvious thing to ask a CPL candidate to do! I actually got the first one wrong, it had been so long since I'd done one on my plane! I regularly do them on other larger aircraft I test fly, but I was just too casual about my mount of 2600 hours... The flight manual helped!

So why do we have to carry a flight manual?

I know it is burdonsom. The one I have for the Cessna Grand Caravan I'm test flying in two weeks, measures 3 3/4" thick - and I'm required to be pretty conversant with it's contents.

Most of us (perhaps other than Rod) fly aircraft which are type certified. They have demonstrated compliance with the applicable design requirements. One example of those design requirements is of course FAA CAR 3, which is the basis of certification of most Cessnas and Pipers, among many.

In order for the regulatory authority to certifiy the aircraft type, [he] has to find compliance of the aircraft with the appropriate requirements. One of them is:

3.777 Airplane flight manual
An Airplane Flight Manual shall be furnished with each airplane. The portions of this document listed below shall be verified and approved by the Administrator, and shall be segregated, identified, and clearly distinguished from portions not so approved. Additional items of information having a direct and important bearing on safe operation may be required by the Administrator when unusual design, operating, or handling characteristics so warrant.

Therefore, the regulatory authority has no choice than to require the provision of a flight manual with a new design. Once the requirement to provide the flight manual has been met with an acceptable document, this document will be listed on the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TCDS) for the aircraft, as required equipment, because CAR 3.777 required it.

So, once it's on the TCDS for the aircraft, the pilot is required to operate the aircraft with that equipment (flight manual) available - and operational!

The inspector who ramp checks you is required to satisfy himself that your aircraft carries the required equipment. ...and the loop is closed.

I was ferrying a Lake Amphibian about 1200 miles. I had fuelled up the main tank, and two wing tanks. While enroute, I decided it was time to select the wing tanks, so as to manage my fuel well. I spent quite a time looking for the "main - aux" fuel selector. I could not find it. So, I read the entire flight manual, no mention of how to select the wing tank fuel at all. Hmmm, it would be silly to carry that fuel back to the ground, and look kinda foolish later. I phoned a friend - (if you can do it on the show, you can do it from the cockpit). It turns out that no selection is required, it drains on it's own - How would I know that? The flight manual should have said so.

There are a lot of design "safe guards" put in place by the application of design requirements. One of them is that you are not up in the wild blue yonder, with no way of figuring out what the green knob does....

[BackPacker]

available - and operational

So does this mean that, according to the regulations and the interpretation of the folks on here, the AFM/POH not only needs to be on board, but also needs to be readily accessible by the pilot in-flight?

Most of our club aircraft come with a Samsonite full of paperwork, including the POH, but also a substantial binder containing the airworthiness certificate, insurance certificate, radio approvals, noise certificate and such. We typically dump this suitcase in the baggage compartment and pile the rest of the luggage on top of it.

Now if you're flying with a passenger you can arguably ask him/her to climb over the seats and root around in the baggage compartment to retrieve the manual (not that I would consider that in an emergency though) but when flying solo this is actually impossible. Heck, I don't even know if an autopilot would be able to cope with the massive trim change resulting from the single occupant of the aircraft climbing in the back. But without an autopilot it'll get very interesting very quickly for sure. Never mind the regulation of "one pilot to be at the controls at all times".

[mad_jock]

I am just glad that the CAA is actually doing inspections. Its the first one I have heard about in a long time. Could do with a few engineers doing some spot checks of school aircraft as well.

The ops inspector is proberly a heavy tin guy who hasn't been near a light aircraft in years. No doudt one of his collegues has read this thread if he hasn't himself and the matter has been sorted already.

As for having it on board for UK flights...

I can't see much point in the club enviroment.If the CAA had returned the copy's that it had held for every aircraft in the the UK instead of putting them in a skip. I might be more pro carrying it. They are bloody expensive and a right PITA to get a new one if the old one goes missing or gets damaged.

As for getting it out in anger in flight. Not a chance in hell. I have a 60kg libary on board my work aircraft that gets taken out for flight ops inspections, document checks and a few other outings a year to discuss an issue or look something up. I have never had an issue that couldn't wait until I was on the gound. All required data should be available to the pilot in the cockpit. If expanded checklists are required they should be provided as well without the need to get the book out.

There are aircraft out there with very nice water proof A5 flip binders normally 2 of them. One with a checklist and freq charts and the other with all the rest of the pref and W&B etc and you can use a china graph on them as well. I must admit though I have only ever seen them in home builds where the builder has been a commercial pilot or ex Mil.

[Pilot DAR]

the AFM/POH not only needs to be on board, but also needs to be readily accessible by the pilot in-flight?


The copilot of the operation I used be associated with, was asked by the pilot: "is the flight bag (containing charts, approach plates etc.) aboard?", "Yes, it is". And, with that, they took off. When an instrument approach would obviously be needed at the end of the flight, the pilot asked the copilot to get out the approach plates. "Ummm, they're in the nose baggage compartment".

Yes, those pieces of "required equipment" are required to be accessible to the pilot - in flight!

[Rod1]

“There are aircraft out there with very nice water proof A5 flip binders”

That is what I use. I keep everything needed for an international flight in it so it is one thing less to worry about if I pop over to L2K etc. I would however consider anyone reading a book whilst flying P1 VFR to be grossly irresponsible as there is no way you can be safe with regard to see and avoid. The pilot should be fully up to speed with his aircraft by reading the book on the ground.

Rod1

[mad_jock]

I agree the A5 folder only contains "need to have" available information.

If your aircraft has some wonderful expanded checklist for fixing some crutial bit of equipment it should be in it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Every Cessna I have ever flown has kept the POH in the glove box which cleverly enough the Manual has been sized to fit, or in the pocket behind the right hand front seatback. For my Grumman the POH lives in the sidewall pocket next to my left knee. In both cases they are readily accessable. For those aircraft where it is impracticable to stow/use the POH in the cockpit than Genghis solution is the obvious one. Simply carry the POH emergency section, (copies are fine if they are periodically checked against the real POH for any revisions) and any other inflight relavent sections in a seperate little binder. But in that case Genghis has made my point because he in fact references the POH emeregency section when he looks at those 17 pages he mentioned. The importance of doing that rather than relying on memory or on Flight School folklore when dealing with an emergency, or any other operating question, is the point I was trying make...

[patowalker]

SoCal, just to be clear: I am not in the UK, and I fly (European) ultralights. I do have seen PPL'ers round here doing their W&B sheets.

In the UK, by design, microlights flown within MTOW and baggage limitations, cannot exceed CoG limits. Therefore, no W&B calculations are required.

[Rod1]

“The importance of doing that rahter than relying on memory”

In the UK it is normal to learn all emergency procedures. On a simple aircraft it is far safer to do this than look it up in the air. If you need to look things up, land, then sort it out. In 1000+ hours of flying light aircraft I have never needed to read a book in the air. These are simple devices with simple systems, lets not treat then like an A380.

Rod1

[WestWind1950]

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading here! For me it is standard to have to POH on board... you may actually need to refer it in flight, or perhaps an airfield far from home? Besides it being a part of the minimum equipment requirement here in Germany.... (in the LuftBO somewhere).

My flying club gives every student a copy to use for learning, but the original, up-dated version is on board... always!

[Big Pistons Forever]

“The importance of doing that rahter than relying on memory”

In the UK it is normal to learn all emergency procedures. On a simple aircraft it is far safer to do this than look it up in the air. If you need to look things up, land, then sort it out. In 1000+ hours of flying light aircraft I have never needed to read a book in the air. These are simple devices with simple systems, lets not treat then like an A380.

Rod1

You are of course correct in saying your average Cessna/Piper trainer/tourer is not an especially complicated aircraft and you don't need a book at hand for most normal operations. I however strongly disagree with your implication that because "In the UK it is normal to learn all emergency procedures", all is well. My personal opinion is that your average UK PPL who got his/her license a few years ago and flies 10 hrs a year would not be able to correctly recall the correct actions for every possible emergency in even a simple airplane like a C172 and to know the implications of all the failure modes. Therefore I reiterate my personal opinion that when appropriate it is a good idea to consult the POH when something goes wrong particularly in the cruise flight segment where the aircraft spends the majority of its time. But I guess we will have to aggree to disagree on that one.

As for the average UK pilots general familiarity with the POH I can only marvel at the currently running "carb heat" thread on the Instructors forum. It seems that many if not most of the posters have no idea what the POH actually tells them on how the carb heat control should be used and instead mindlessly use some one size fits all piece of flight school folklore generated "rule" on how the carb heat control is to be used.

[MarcK]

Take Off/Landing Distances
You cannot complete the final action (T) without a W&B.
Absolutely incorrect. But if you want to carry a filled-out paper W&B, that's OK with me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

For most light aeroplanes, on most of their usual runways, you can simply do field performance calculations at MTOW.

If it's okay for the runway length, which it usually will be, then there really is no reason to prove it's okay at any lighter, actual, weight.

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How can you ascertain Take off/Landing distances as required by 91.103 without knowing your gross weight which in turn requires that you have done your W&B which in turn requires that you have access to the POH (which is what this thread is in relation to).
When I'm thinking of using a runway that is sufficiently short that I need to calculate them at all I use the max weight, I'm sure I've more than once seen advice not to take the allowances for being under max weight, head winds and suchlike and to always use the worst case.

[mary meagher]

I'm just as glad I didn't have the original pages of the POH in the back compartment of my cub last summer. As most of the flying we do is on one end of a 180 foot rope, with a glider on the other end, the routine is fairly basic. One day for a jolly I asked a friend to come along for a short flight and the unique thrill of flying on a hot day with both upper door and lower door open. (no glider this time; not approved with pax, of course, as glider towing is one of the more dangerous things you can do with an aeroplane).

My POH was a photocopy, in an old manilla A4 envelope.

Now the most fun flying with the doors open in a Supercub is of course a nice steep turn to the right. You KNOW you are up in the air when there is nothing but nothing underneath you except your nice fat wheel.

We did this a couple of times, and suddenly the old manilla A4 envelope split along its seams and the entire 104 pages of the POH rose up in the rear of the aircraft doing their individual best to escape out the open doors. My passenger in the rear was collecting pages with both arms. I was cackling with laughter, while concentrating on returning safely to the airfield.

When we landed only two pages were missing out of the heap, one was still hanging onto the horizontal tailplane, one was forever gone to visit a farmer. The POH, reassembled, with missing page recopied, now sits in the back compartment in a nice plastic box, underneath a spare towrope and a litre of oil.

In the Supercub, the only place I can stow items I really need in flight is down the front of my shirt.