Pilot employment chances in "civvy" street

[rogerk]

Who ranks top of the list for getting a reasonable job after leaving the
services ?

IMHO - Rotary top FJ bottom ??

:ok::ok:

[Bob Viking]

You must have been a great guy to have on squadron.
You're great for morale!
BV:yuk:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Why place RW above the ME folks?

[rogerk]

What's your problem ??
A reasonable question I thought ??

[Bob Viking]

The way I see it, you're a bloke who clearly doesn't need to worry about such things right now (if your profile information is to be believed) and you appear to be stirring things up at a time when guys are feeling a little bit jaded.
You may not be wanting to kick the Harrier guys in the b@lls but that's the way it came across to me.
Or am I just being a little precious?!
BV:hmm:

[jayteeto]

Not only good for morale, but totally out of touch with reality in the civil RW world :sad:

[Trim Stab]

Why place RW above the ME folks?


I'm a civ pilot and TRI and so see a lot of ex-mil CVs. The ex RW guys do occasionally have an advantage over ME in that they generally have plenty of P1 time, plus multi-crew time. Some of the ex-ME guys have a lot of multi-crew hours, but sometimes hardly enough P1 time to hold a CPL.

But as I pointed out in another thread, these days unless you also have a type-rating (preferably A330 or 777), and are happy to relocate to China or Vietnam, there are very few jobs for anybody.

[rogerk]

Yes my profile is accurate - and no I don't have to worry about such things any more.
I was not trying to kick anyone in the balls - it was a genuine question.
If you look at other postings you will find an awfull lot of duff info
"Don't worry mate plenty of jobs at virgin/ba" what for a Chinook pilot- rubbish !!
... and for "jayteeto" I might be out of touch but as you seem to be employed in civilian RW instead of slagging me off you might give a bit of advise to those who might be looking for a job ??
:ok:

[dctyke]

Hey guys, it's not only aircrew who will be on their way:ugh: At least you 'should' be a lot better off than the guys who supported you!

[jayteeto]

Advice? OK, do everything you can to stay in and collect your pay for as long as possible.
I saw this coming, jumped ship from the Police ASU I had spent 6 happy years at and got a job with the air ambulance. 6 months later, jobs are like rocking horse poo and there are soon to be a number of experienced, type rated EC135 pilots looking for jobs when these cuts kick in. I have an ATPL(A) as well, I am considering using it to supplement the toilet roll upstairs, because believe me, it is very lean out here. I met an ex naval squadron commander recently who was paying for his own type rating in the hope of getting his cv above others in the company piles.
When I left the RAF in 2003, I took an 18 grand pay cut, but collected an 11 grand pension. Wages have not risen that much.
Things will pick up as they reduce this deficit and jobs are always available if you are prepared to travel and work for buttons. You need to know someone who has influence in a company, the old days of having a mate who is a pilot there have gone. Even bloody McDonalds are not recruiting!!

[Easy Street]

Many mil pilots find it hard to see a civvy career beyond flying airliners. I think more of us, especially retiring Sqn Ldrs / Wg Cdrs, should aim for executive positions with large firms instead - especially now that the airline industry is beset by virtually-bankrupt "pay to fly" wannabes begging for jobs. As military officers we all have proven leadership, ability to work under pressure, strong work ethic, communication skills etc etc... these are all highly valued in the corporate world and many companies actively seek ex-military people. Army officers have long taken this path and there is no reason why more pilots should not.

[airborne_artist]

Army officers have long taken this path and there is no reason why more pilots should not.I know of several Navs/WSOs/Lookers who did well in the City - they were decisive, numerate and good communicators who could lead/work in a team.

Think beyond the poling skills. Time was when many of John Lewis's senior management were ex-Forces officers - the current chairman went to RMAS and served in the Scots Guards. Has to be better than working for O'Leary.

[Airborne Aircrew]

As military officers we all have proven leadership, ability to work under pressure, strong work ethic, communication skills etc etc...Well... I know "inflating" your CV is common but you're taking a few liberties there... :E

[Trim Stab]

know of several Navs/WSOs/Lookers who did well in the City - they were decisive, numerate and good communicators who could lead/work in a team.




How long ago was that?

It is a lot tougher nowadays in any profession. Company recruiters tend not to look at long term potential of a recruit and concentrate more on the bottom line - what revenue will this person bring to the company tomorrow? Unless you can show that you are immediately productive in a carefully defined role, then you don't get a look in.

[airborne_artist]

How long ago was that? There's a PPruNer, Cobalt Frog, a fully-paid up member of the two-winged master race (dark-blue), who joined a large bank in the last 18 months.

It is a lot tougher nowadays in any profession. Company recruiters tend not to look at long term potential of a recruit and concentrate more on the bottom line - what revenue will this person bring to the company tomorrow? Unless you can show that you are immediately productive in a carefully defined role, then you don't get a look in.

Indeed - so plan ahead - don't wait for the axe to fall. Network, do a part-time MBA, or if all else fails, marry an heiress.

[airborne_artist]

'...better than working for O'Leary'. I actually work for O'Leary. I have a very good lifestyle and get paid very well. Check your facts first.

I wrote:

the current chairman went to RMAS and served in the Scots Guards. Has to be better than working for O'Leary.

The Chairman of John Lewis earns about £850,000 (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23814391-pound-151m-staff-bonus-bonanza-as-john-lewis-profits-soar.do) - do you? Just checking facts :}

[Junglydaz]

"Hey guys, it's not only aircrew who will be on their way:ugh: At least you 'should' be a lot better off than the guys who supported you! "

Here here. How soon they forget the "little people".....!:ugh:;)

[OCCWMF]

Especially ones for whom the difference between here and hear are, apparently, irrelevant. Though I here what you're saying, I'm not sure hear is the place for us to here your grievances, y'here?
:E
Ps - Fully agree with RW at the top...

[FFP]

Never mind the RW / FJ / ME racking and stacking. How bout throwing RPA operators into that mix (or are they not pilots this week :E)

[Farfrompuken]

When you look at the fact that 'cadets' with 200hrs and frozen ATPLs are getting employment, then the chances are going to be good for the FJ and RW chaps with sufficient hours. The ME boys with 2500+ hrs will have a far better chance of LH flying.

That's all very well, but its getting the right pay scale that's the key; that is where the differential will lie.

Poster here are right; there will no doubt be far better better renumeration packages in management than operations; people are going to have to be flexible in their approach to future employment.

Sadly interesting times.

[Trim Stab]

When you look at the fact that 'cadets' with 200hrs and frozen ATPLs are getting employment


Only because they are paying for the experience, in the hope that it in the long term they will have enough flying years ahead of them to pay off their six figure debts.

[wiggy]

When you look at the fact that 'cadets' with 200hrs and frozen ATPLs are getting employment, then the chances are going to be good for the FJ and RW chaps with sufficient hours

I really hope so, but it still comes down to the fact that in the current environment airlines can specify that they want someone who either

1. Has a valid type rating.
or
2. Is willing to pay for a type rating...

( Why? Because it saves or makes them money).

[Army Mover]

Fact of life outside now ladies & gentlemen is that companies are still recruiting, but prospective employers are looking for the cheapest possible version of those people who have ticks in the right boxes, those boxes will be qualifications, experience and what they will bring to the business over and above anybody else competing for that role; I suspect this will be common across most areas.

As an ex-serviceman, I go out of my way to at least interview any ex-serviceman who applies for a role in my company; I'm not unique in industry with this attitude. We do have a lot of success with ex-servicemen, so take heart guys, you do have a lot of attributes that make you attractive to potential employers, but you do need to consider my opening paragraph.

My advice to those in the redundancy zones is to make the most of the resettlement organisation and to understand that you need to start looking out for yourselves. I wish all of you the best of luck in your new careers. :ok:

[Wander00]

And as I used to say in resettlement presentations to Ex-Service people in 94-95, and as relevant now, LUCK is a very significant factor. Every day offers an opportunity, may be on the bus or tube, at a social event, or just because you took your application/CV to a prospective employer rather than posted it, and wore a suit rather than jeans and a tee-shirt. Took me two goes after leaving the RAF, and ended up in a fantastic job for 12 years. Turned out the GOQ was being an Old Cranwellian! Funny old world. Good luck all of you - AND "network, network, network"!

[cornish-stormrider]

Damn right. you might not end up dring from airport A to airport B or wherever but you will get a fair crack.

I will always interview any ex serviceman. (unless they are totally unsuited for the role AND have not written a letter as to why I should employ them instead).

Smartness and confidence counts for a lot. especially when you turn up and the interviewer knows you'd fit in.

Above all do your homework and expect an unhappy time till you get employed


:]

[wiggy]

"I will always interview any ex serviceman"

Army Mover/ Cornish-stormrider - Good to hear that some can cut though the automated approach to recruiting.

I think the major problem with even getting as far as having your application looked at by some of the bigger Companies, let alone getting an interview, is getting past "the computer says "no"" stage.

[BEagle]

These days, the best way to stand out from the pile is to have someone on the inside able to broker your case. Or 'networking' as some call it.

Having the ear of a recruiter, or knowing someone who does and who is also prepared to suggest that the recruiter keeps an eye out for your application, is invaluable. Otherwise you'd probably just be one of many, sad to say.

With the increasing level of interest in drones, surely an ex-MPA sensor operator would be a valuable person to employ in such a role?

Anyway, best of luck to all those who now find their future looking rather shaky.

[It's Not Working]

There is an interesting discussion running on a Linked-In group at the moment on whether recruitment agencies are worth their money and the simplistic conclusion is 'no'. It is encouraging that Cornish always interviews ex-servicemen but I wonder if, outside of the Defence industry, there is a reluctance of companies to employ them? The general populous is now so removed from the armed forces that their only understanding of the Services is what they see on the nightly news.

Wiggy is right that half the battle is getting past the ‘computer says “no” stage.’ Two recent experiences; ECDL on my list of qualifications but agency says I don’t meet the criteria because I have no Microsoft experience and similarly with IOSH – I’ve no H&S experience!

It’s a hard world out here, being an ex-serviceman over 55 doesn’t help. Anyway, I'm not a pilot (PPL but that doesn't count) so sorry to have jumped onto your thread - a sincere good luck.

[just another jocky]

Wiggy is right that half the battle is getting past the ‘computer says “no” stage.’ Two recent experiences; ECDL on my list of qualifications but agency says I don’t meet the criteria because I have no Microsoft experience and similarly with IOSH – I’ve no H&S experience!

What would be the minimum qualifications 'outside'? I guess I need to start some courses. :eek:

[It's Not Working]

JAJ

The mistake I made in my last 5 or so years was chasing a BSc and not chasing professional civilian qualifications in my speciality. My last 10 years were in a niche subject that the public sector has just woken up to and unfortunately letters after your name count for a lot. I have been out of the market for 18-months and my past experience is now so dated as to be worthless.

Think very carefully where you want to go then look at the background of those who are already there.

[just another jocky]

Think very carefully where you want to go then look at the background of those who are already there.

INW, I'd always hoped for FTRS until I recently discovered that if you join straight from leaving the regular service, you basically lose all your EDP. :eek:

So, in all honesty, right now I don't know where I would be looking. Scary stuff indeed. :\

[Pizza Express]

As a ex mil jocks I think you are at the bottom of the pile for jet airline jobs in the uk. My employer will not employ you because they will not make any money out of you and we have about 200 jets to crew. BA/Virgin will crew from the vast pool of Airbus/Boeing pilots who have several 1000's hours on type and want to go LH. Ryanair may take you but you will need to pitch up with a 737 ticket 25k ish pus a bit more to get you buy. I can not see any mil jock getting any UK airline job for less thank £30K up front after CPL issue and then going on to a B or C scale flexi contract.

a 500 hour flexi first officer with 300 hours on an airbus has 300 more airbus hours than a FJ jock what you have done before your rating these days is of no intrest at all.

sad but true

[Army Mover]

Some general advice; Beagle is dead right with regards to contacts, you can never have to many and don't be ashamed to use them.

You can be competing with lots of other people for one job, so your CV needs to stand out and your covering letter really needs to convey the fact that you meet all the requirements they are looking for and are available; that will help get you past the first cull. It doesn't hurt to convey the fact that you are an ex-servicemen somewhere in the covering letter, but don't labour on the fact.

If you have qualifications, make sure you let the prospective employer know, avoid using military jargon; they don't know what an NBC instructor is. If you have letters after your name or things like chartered status, use them; anything that will make you different to the other guy is important.

If you are a specialist, it may well be useful to contact one of the specialist recruiting agencies, but do not under any circumstances pay them anything up-front.

[cornish-stormrider]

What I look for most is a CV that takes my eye. First spooling mistoke and it's binned.

Appearance, proof read it. have a blinding hook paragraph, 2 pages no more and tailor it to fit the job. If there is a form to fill in - fill the damn thing out fully - don;t be lazy and write see CV.

I don't care if you are the professor of recondrite achitecture and oragami map folding in your spare time.

I want to skills, experiences and ability to make my firm a profit.

You get about 15 seconds to sell it - tops.

If you send a CV electronically then trial test it and make sure it comes out correctly when it's been sent. Don't assume -

Also one phone call or email about 2 weeks after you have sent might be ok for some jobs, it might piss the employer off.....Don't be hassly

Learn about the role you are going for, the company etc. If you are asked a diffucult moral question - I'd be honest and go with the integrity route.

You have got to make a solid professional positive all round attitude come across.

I will not look at who I can employ for the cheapest - I look at who will make the best fit.

Every company I have worked for have said - we like having Military experience - but you need to get across what it is....


did I say to do your homework.....

[It's Not Working]

Cornish

Lots of good advice there, thanks for sharing it. One question if I may? You sayEvery company I have worked for have said - we like having Military experience - but you need to get across what it is....


But are those specific companies in the Defence environment or are they totally divorced from what we do? I guess what I am trying to do is confirm, or have denied, my feelings that an HM Forces background counts against you when trying to get a foot in the door outside of the Defence industry.

[sarboy w****r]

I got an extremely well-paid job in an investment bank (arguably the world's premier IB, too) immediately after leaving the RAF, with no prior financial experience. Experience or qualifications are extremely useful, but they're not the be-all-and-end-all. I'd far rather hire someone friendly, keen to learn and willing to work his ar*e off than a pr*ck with a series of nugatory qualifications after his name.

Key points:

1. Network, network, network. Your CV passed on by a contact to the right person with the right word counts for far more than going through an agency or submitting applications online. You may not like it, but it's often not what you know but who you know, so if you don't know enough people then work out how to fix the problem and then make it happen: this is what you should have learned from your time in the military. Ask yourself: "who do I know that does the job I want to do? Or who do I know that might know such a person and when can they arrange for me to meet up with them?" Remember, a CV is just a ticket to an interview - you get a job offer on the strength of your performance in the interview, not the words on a piece of paper, so sell yourself when you meet them. Life doesn't owe you a living, so if you have a chip on your shoulder then dump it, fast, and be positive, friendly and helpful when you meet potential employers or contacts, and be appropriately dressed when you meet them. If you can't write proper English then for God's sake get your CV/letters/emails properly proof-read. Companies can lose vast sums of money if small details are overlooked, and if you can't be bothered to spell a person's name correctly or proof-read your work then what are you going to be like if they take you on in a position of responsibility or what will it make them look like to customers if they let you contact clients?

2. Don't start looking at what you'd like to do outside the military as you are coming up to leaving. You need to have a plan B when you're still serving. Remember when you were going through leadership exercises and things didn't work out for you and you had to think on your feet and put plan B into action? You do have a plan B, don't you? And if not, why not? What was your plan if you lost your med cat etc...? Put as much time and effort into preparing for finding a new job as you did for getting through pilot selection - I spent more months than I care to remember working towards the OASC interview etc. No change here. Coming up with a plan when you're starting resettlement leave is too late, and you're going to have to play catchup.

3. Treat looking for work as a full-time occupation in itself. If you're already working then it means you will just have to treat the job-search as taking on a second job. Are you starting at 1030 and knocking off at 1500, or are you starting to send emails/write letters/ring people/research at 0800 and finishing late? Just firing off one or two applications a week are the actions of the long-term unemployed. If you're not filling in application forms then you need to be writing emails, sending letters, ringing people or just plain researching the company or position. And did I say networking? You should have learned from the military that you train hard, fight easy: i.e. you need to put the work in if you want to be rewarded. Civvy street is no different, and life doesn't owe you a living, no matter what job you did in the military.

4. Have realistic expectations. If the job advert says they need TRI with ATPL and type rating and 5000+ hours on type then don't waste your time and their's if you've only just got your licence and 250 hours R22. That said, most qualification lists are a list of the desirable not essential, so if you're close to the minima then write a decent covering letter setting out why you should be considered. Remember, you've got to be in it to win it.

5. If you're struggling, don't forget to ask for help. If you ask for a job in a speculative letter then the employer is most likely to say no if they don't have one available. If there is any sort of military connection (and even if there isn't then try anyway) then don't be afraid of simply asking their advice, and ask whether they would mind meeting up for a coffee and a chat about what they would look for in terms of experience etc in a potential employee and their best advice for getting into the industry. Personally, I will always give an ex-mil person some of my time by phone or in person if they ask. And once they know your name and who you are (and if you make a good impression, c.f. parts of para 1 above!), then they will think of you when they do end up having a job come available... it all comes down to networking. You must ALWAYS look after your mates in the military, and then they will look after you - most people who have already moved on to civvy street will remember this lesson and will be able to offer support and advice if you ask for it.

6. If you did well in the military, you will have learned that succeeding is all about drive, determination and courage in adversity. No different here - dry your eyes and crack on. The last word belongs to George Bernard Shaw:

People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and if they can't find them, make them.

[wiggy]

sarboy - That post should be a "sticky".

Having banged on about the big airline/big aircraft outfits being somewhat automated in the early stages of their recruiting process, I wonder if the bizjet community might be more flexible and responsive to networking?

Any thoughts from those in the know?

[Trim Stab]

I wonder if the bizjet community might be more flexible and responsive to networking?


The sector is also very depressed at the moment. It is very hard, if not impossible, to get even an interview without a type-rating, prior experience on type, and a local address. You also need to be able to show that you can work without an ops department backing you up.

However, networking is very important. Bizjet pilots often fly together all the time as a team (as opposed to random crews with airlines) so captains tend to pick friends as their copilots. A friend of mine recently got his wife a job as his copilot, and the employer paid for her type-rating too.

The flying is a lot of fun though - we fly to a huge variety of destinations, from Heathrow to tiny VFR aerodromes in Africa, often have no idea where we will end up at night. We fly Mexican approaches whenever we can, and only revert to German approaches if we know we will go down to minimums and have pax onboard.

It is very useful to hold an FI rating in GA, as it makes you doubly useful to a small company as you can quickly qualify as a TRI/TRE/SRI.

[cornish-stormrider]

In BIG red letters for the hard of thinking.

Looking for a job - read what Sarboy says in 3 posts above.
Now go do it.....

[miles magistrate]

Well said Sarboy – all good stuff.

A couple of points from me, aimed at those who think it will/may be an easy transition. It is not and for the non flyers and for flyers who want “Exec” roles please take particular note:

1. If you are sending out a CV make sure you send as “read only”. You would be surprised at the number of CV’s that I see that show “Track Changes” when we check. Frankly that can cause some embarrassment to the applicant and huge amusement to us. Best option is to convert to pdf before sending. Do not lie on your CV – we always cross check with old mates who will know you, and cut the crap, we know that very few of you actually control budgets worth millions or command 100’s of people.

2. Be realistic on salary expectations. We expect you to generate between 5 and 10 x annual salary for the business unless of course you are in job such as flying – even then your skills are being used to generate income. Business is all about money, they only want to give you a job if you are capable of adding to the bottom line – not deducting from it. The number of people that come armed with a long list of T&C’s and really expect that we will pay £80K+ with shares, car, pension etc is quite amazing. Be prepared to settle for a lot less. Just look in the National press and you will see what the level of pay is for senior roles.

3. The idea that as ex military you are better than a pure civvy is a myth. You know very little about how to do business, nothing about Corporate Culture, Governance or even the language we speak. We reckon you are pretty useless for 12 – 24 months unless you are exceptional.

4. Sad but true, but the only reason we like ex military is not what you know but who you know i.e. what doors can you open. Remember your list of useful contacts tends to go cold after about 2 years.

I have no wish to depress anybody especially now, but the best advice I can give after 25 years + Mil Aircrew and 14 years Civvy business. is be realistic and as you have seen in previous posts “Network”. A very high number of appointments are filled by Mates!!

Finally for those that want to fly. Irrespective of what licence you have be prepared for serious pain, expense and disappointment. I am still in the industry and can confirm the job market is far from good, despite what others say. I am very close to this, we have not taken on 1 ex mil pilot (FW or RW) in the last 2 years!!

[The Old Fat One]

Sarboy chap good post.


3. The idea that as ex military you are better than a pure civvy is a myth. You know very little about how to do business, nothing about Corporate Culture, Governance or even the language we speak. We reckon you are pretty useless for 12 – 24 months unless you are exceptional.


To back up MM post - a high level recruiter (head of big public sector jobs agency) who is a very successful lady and a close personal friend, once told me that the most unemployable bunch she had come across were high ranking military officers with MBAs - for pretty much identical reasons that MM articulates. Her advice to them was "if you are networked (that word again) head for the defence sector, they've always got wads of dosh to waste."

Apart from the great vision of some general being kissed off by a career girl half his age, there is wider point of value to those seeking new careers - especially in the private (profit driven) sector.

The ability to work with everyone and anyone is essential. Humility, good management skills, team skills are in. Arrogance, sarcasm and hard-edged banter are out. Dial up the soft, helpful approach to management, dial down the hard-hitting "is to", "are to" approach.

One final item of advice. Aircrew are often effective outside their comfort zone, which is a common trait of effective sales people. You may have a latent sales talent that you do not know about. If you have and you discover it..run with it. An effective sales person is never out of work and a really exceptional sales person writes his/her own pay cheques. You can return to aviation when you buy your first light aircraft.

[airborne_artist]

Pere Artist had plenty of reasons to head for the defence sales sector (1*, plenty of comms/EW experience), but he refused to be a tart.

He found himself a job as an HR director - despite having no formal HR experience, nor even having been a pusser. The job was good, and he did well. So well that when there was a vacancy for the Sales Director role the CEO asked him to apply. He did well in that too, and held that job til he retired. He was the only ex-Services guy in the place, and when he died I had a fistful of letters from employees who'd thoroughly enjoyed working for him.

He had plenty going for him, mostly that he wasn't a pompous @rse, despite having had drivers, stewards etc., and he hadn't forgotten that his grand-father had been a mill foreman less than ten miles from his new office in Manchester.

A little humility will get you a long way.

[clunckdriver]

May I, as one who has hired many aircrew from the military make a few observations? Firstly, let me point out that I am ex military, compleated a short service commision and bailed out of the mob when it became clear that the Air Force was turning into a shadow of it previous self, I hadnt joined to push paper around or sit behind a scope so with great trepidation I pulled the pin. Jobs were thin upon the ground, but during my time in the service I had messed around with light aircraft and as a result of making a few contacts managed to scrape by delivering aircraft and doing a bit of ag work, all due to the fact that I had made contacts OUTSIDE of the service during my time in the mob. Without boring you with the details, from then on things fell into place, retired at the very top of the airline heap, started our own charter and flight school outfits {since sold} took Summer LOAs to fire bomb and spray , still fly corporate and charity flights when able, and use the aircraft to train deserving kids, giving them real world training and paying them a living wage at the same time, so what factors caused me to have such a great time while other poor sods finished up selling insurance? most of these guys are by the way a lot smarter and better educated than myself. Let me give you my take on it. To fit in to a small civilian company the first thing to remember is there are no officers and other ranks, only fellow employees, the person who pumps the Blue water out of the aircraft can has just the same status as you, and if he/she aint around ,you do the job, that goes for de iceing the aircraft and cleaning the windshields, toping up the oil, pre heating and all the other tasks that make a five AM start such joy! If you are not willing to do this stuff then expect to get paid a lot less, as when you cover all these tasks then payroll is a lot smaller, thus more for you! one of the best illustrations of this is to watch the CAF launch a Herc at Trenton, a cast of dozens to get it going, then go to Yellowknife and watch First Air go, Buddy Whatshisname and Two Other Fellas,{ You can Google this } load, de ice and launch in half the time . Some of the very best ex military we hired were NCO crewman who obtained their civvy papers and then came to work for us, willing, great tech know how and leaders, in fact I just recieved an e mail from one who is in the left seat of a turbo prop and loves what he is doing. Many who left the service over here did so with a pension, you will not be popular if you bring this up and offer to work for less, most new hires from civvy street are still paying a training debt and dont want to hear this.If you do obtain a civvy flying job, go easy on the war stories, many of the kids flying single pilot IFR have had a few adventures themselves so untill you demonstrate that you can do the job as well as them its best to remain mum about you dareing do. Dont just look to the airlines for a seat, over here GA has far more positions than the sked outfits, Fling Wing pilots have a vast field to try for, things are a bit quiet at this time but will be picking up as the survey buisiness gets back into gear,make your contacts now, dont wait for things to pick up before getting those bits of paper, if you do you will be out of phase with the hiring, remember for a company in aviation, long range planing is tomorows breakfast!I hope nobody will get bent out of shape by my obsevations, I had been in uniform since fourteen years old, well do I remember the difficulty of adjusting to civilian life and flying, no mess to go to, no circle of like minded folks, having to plan ones finances, pension,even aranging acomodation in some Crappy town at short notice,but most of all the change in culture came as a real shock. Looking back Ive done two very smart things in my life, joining the RCAF, and leaving the RCAF! Hope my rambling observations havnt offended anyone!

[EngAl]

Just to reinforce some of the excellent advice below, particularly about networking. When I did my resettlement courses we were told 60% of jobs were never advertised!

[VinRouge]

For all those that are currently in but looking to leave in the next few years, a few pointers:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/425507-emirates-pilot-recruitment-roadshows-uk.html

Emirates are sucking up a LOT of people with experience and type ratings right now. Unfortunately, I hear they arent recruiting mil aircrew, however, they still be recruiting UK experience, ahead of the big UK carriers picking up recruitment.

That will hopefully suck up capacity for the next snag the airlines have, namely, this:

http://anmblog.typepad.com/this_is_money_blog/images/2007/12/12/uk_population_3.gif

Its no secret the recent contracts that many airlines have drawn up to prevent pilots paying 50% tax, that they have a demographics issue which is about to rear its head as the boomers approach retirement, combined with a globally expanding airline industry. The FT are expecting global pilot numbers to double over the next 15 years.

I have a number of years left to go. I will be preparing for both airline based and corporate work.

[clunckdriver]

For another view of Emirates have a look at the thread on the Canada section, ignoring the obvious" plants "placed there by Emirates themselves.

[VinRouge]

Its a job, it pays the bills.

Its not stopping people go over there and working for them is it? Which was my original point.

[clunckdriver]

Vin Rouge, How does a sugestion that there is good info on the Canada thread get transformed into your last beligerent post? Having spent a fair bit of time in the ME and able to get by in the local lingo my advice is read all one can and get all sides before you go, no recruiter is going to give all views on the situation, their job is to recruit, not get into discusions on the various merits of the job, thats the function of the likes of PPrune, a great site may I add!

[VinRouge]

Sorry mate, thought you were slagging the Emirates for trying to wangle landing slots in Canada, which something our maple syrup eating cousins arent too happy about at the mo! :eek: That certainly isnt going to stop brit pilots working for them, especially when you look at their per diem rate tax free.

We have to face facts, the airline industry is truly global and if you want to secure a job, looking abroad has to be considered an option these days imho. I would also say this includes the corporate jobs market; its plain to see that the US/UK is in the descendant at the moment and the tiger economies are where its going to be at in the second decade of this century. You only need to see their capital reserves to figure that one out.

[clunckdriver]

Not at all Vin Rouge, belive me I as an ex company owner am fully aware of the Global shift taking place, in the case of the Emirates it wont I fear have the legs of say China or India, those going there should plan and put aside for a possible crash, indeed without some outside help recently to salvage their building industry it would be a very different story by now.As for the Emirates tying landing rights to other non relevent issues, its just an example of the gulf {no pun intended} between our two societies, I recently gave a talk to some headed over and was amazed as to how little the average Canadian grasps this point, the Brits having been involved with the ME for some time seem to be under no illusions in this regard. The hiring is starting to pick up with a vengence in Canada these days, wonder how many having put aside some funds will be returning to Canada? I know of at least two of my ex employees who are on the way back across the pond, {Just in time for Winter} As to the original subject, that is ex military pilots getting jobs, in Canada they are looked upon as very good types to hire, just cant figure the mindset of those who treat them as not the right material, my experience has been anything but this.

[larssnowpharter]

Great post SARBOY!

As one who decided to leave in the mid 90s cull, I also try to give ex military guuys a chance and have had no failures so far. However, I have interviewed guys who really do have a 'superiority attitude'.

One word of advice; flying aircraft - or even being around them - is NOT the be all and end all of life. Flying aircraft in 'civvy' street is not the same. It is not 'fun' it is a bloody tough way of making a living. Think about re-skilling and taking a totally different direction.

I did and currently earn more than a BA captain and probably have more fun. For those in List 1 trades in the RAF with a bent for chemistry, the oil and petrochem world is crying out for good instrument technicians. For others, don't dismiss training in the corporate world. Most of us did some in the military and most of us were bloody good at it.

In any case; good luck to all.:ok:

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

I agree strongly about the need for ex-mil folk to go "networking". It's also important to keep totally flexible in outlook and to retain an air of confidence whilst trying to be humble (I know the latter can be a problem for some ;) ).

Having left the military almost seventeen years ago, I have been lucky enough to be in full-time aviation employment ever since, in four different jobs. I only had to reply to an advert for one of them. My present employer came asking for me, on a recommendation.

[st nicholas]

I work for a LCC based in UK and have done so for the last 11 years. When I joined I had 2200 hrs light rotary experience. "The panel" consisted of 3. 1 ex FAA , 1 ex RAF and 1 HR civilian. I was extremely lucky and spent most of the interview being slagged off for being an ex pongo etc etc. At least there was common ground.

Now we recruit through training organizations , CTC and the like , who have a product that is known, cheap and prepared to work for peanuts. The regulators- CAA and Union- BALPA are not prepared to address this exploitation of naive individuals who are prepared to risk all financially to fly a shiny jet and pop the ray bans on.

So with regard to civil aviation the ex military candidate is almost unheard of. Some Base Captains and Trainers are ex CTC cadets themselves and as with the rest of the civil sector they view military people as a strange breed with whom they have very little in common.

Good luck to all

[indie cent]

Blimey! I'm beginning to realise a strong argument for stepping aside from aviation. The sands are shifting! I guess time will tell if the well trodden path of Military to Civilian pilot as was; is resurrected or dies a death.

The affect of CTC et al should not to be underestimated. The problems facing the military pilot re-inventing themselves are only just beginning to surface. How many mil guys/gals will consider paying for their own type rating for the right-hand seat of a 2-bit loco...?

The ever-declining number of hours leavers have is massively disadvantageous in the dog-eat-dog outside market. Meanwhile, Emirates do not recognize military hours and BA/Virgin are looking to place only type-rated (largely non-mil I suggest) on the yawning-chasm that the legacy seniority list has become. Recognition for military skills and experience amongst the outside aviation community is one thing, but it is the beancounters and insurers that pull the strings in business.

Not meaning to be alarmist, but it's probably worth taking a healthy dose of realism at this stage, especially given that we're on the cusp of voluntary/compulsary redundancy. Natural wastage is probably enough to cause concern for many nearing exit points right now.

Ironically, as there relatively so few of us, everything may be okay...!

Hopefully.

[big v]

There’s a fair bit of talk about there being a future outside of the cockpit. There definitely is.
After nearly 3 decades as a nav, I received plenty of helpful banter on the resettlement “do you want fries with that” lines when I was coming up to go (my choice incidentally). I attended the resettlement course, which apart from the CV stuff and interview technique wasn’t brilliant. The so-called resettlement advisors seemed to be in receipt of a bonus for every new teacher they recruited and I was never going to do that.
I networked my little socks off, then went off on a gap year. I grew a pony tail and beard and the networking paid off. Happily by interview time, I’d lost the pony tail and beard! A job in a defence technology company was duly offered. Since then I’ve had a couple of promotions, survived the culls and had a thoroughly good time. Oh and I got paid as well.
Your skills are transferable, both directly and indirectly. OK, it goes without saying that you should be able to communicate effectively, have some grasp of a number of areas of technology and be an excellent team player. However, the stuff you found out doing the Myers-Briggs test should work in your favour. Having learnt to stay calm when everything is going wrong in the cockpit is also a very useful tool. You’ll be amazed to see how people can spool up under pressure, even over fairly trivial stuff.
Team building is completely different, you can’t order someone to do something. At least, not if you want it doing properly. Building bridges with your team members and getting them to buy into what you’re doing is so different from the military way, but so rewarding. For me, that was the best bit about leaving.
Come on in the water’s lovely.