Flybe pay Talks

[Old Nigel]

Pay talks continue 15/oct .2% or 2%

[FL370 Officeboy]

What.......?

[Coffin Corner]

But the word on the street is 2% on top of our increments, which is more than the 2% including the increments.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Still pretty cack though. At least 5% would be more reasonable no? Or are you all just going to take it up the backside again?

[Old Nigel]

Maybe all spare profit used for directors payrise (22%) and intrest free loan !

[Old Nigel]

Flybe did make a profit . The directors can now enjoy thier 20% plus payrise.!!

[Calmcavok]

According to the accounts:

"The aggregate emolutents of the highest paid director were £0.6m (2009: £0.5m) and company pension contributions of £0.1m (2009: £0.1m) were made to a personal pension scheme on his behalf.""

Looks like a £100k rise to me.

[six-sixty]

I don't think anyone begrudges the directors doing well for themselves, after all they have steered the company through dangerous times where others have floundered. You can't compare our skillset to theirs, and the talents needed to lead an airline successfully these days are way rarer than those operating an airliner, however a significant part of Flybe's success is not so much down to leadership genius as just old fashioned keeping their feet on our throats and making sure we're the among the lowest paid and worst t's&c's in the industry.

Effective paycuts and broken promises on remedying harsh lifestyle issues aren't tenable anymore.

[assymetricdrift]

2% would be an extra £500 a year for me - I might be able to put my credit card down a little bit, but it still means that I can't afford that house that I want. Worst of all, I struggle to afford anything more than 1 tank of petrol a month at the moment.

0.2% just isn't worth considering - I don't even want to think of how little that would be.

And... may I be the devils advocate here:

I would wager a significant amount of money (more than our payrise is going to be!) that the financial results are hiding the impact of the Olympic deal, which was apparently at one stage giving us £2.8 million a month...

[Kiltie]

six-sixty...well said.:D

Time and again we hear pilots slagging directors for their perceived ill-deserved wealth. The fact remains it is the directors that chose a career in taking big risks so to my mind they deserve the largest spoils of success. The laughably blinkered view still exists that "this airline wouldn't survive without its pilots", as if those in Operations, Accounts, PR, Engineering, Sales etc. have an insignificant influence on the business.

...and if I read one more thread describing "...the crew are all a great, fantastic, lovely, hard working bunch of people who are fabulous and great and wonderful to work with, but the management are a bunch of shysters who have no idea what it's like in the real world blah blah...." I think I might shoot myself.:ugh:

If I wanted to be a rich man I would not have become a pilot. I would have stuck in at my Business Studies. For heaven's sake, us pilots are EMPLOYEES and just as expendable as the tea lady. Get over it or change your job; or better still, set up your own airline.....

[G SXTY]

And if I was motivated solely by money, I wouldn't have changed careers – nobody is suggestion we should all get the same as the CEO.

What angers me – and a lot of other people – is the company's attitude to 'negotiation' (if that's the right word) over everything from pay and the scheduling agreement to smart pensions. Given the spectacular lack of progress on rostering, I find it very difficult to accept assurances that "we are negotiating in good faith." Earlies to lates was a problem well before I joined the company, and I'm sure it will continue to be an issue long after I've gone. Continents move quicker than the company when it comes to improving terms and conditions.

Couple that with the stream of missives from Exeter, patting us on the head for 'going the extra mile' during snow, ash clouds, plagues of frogs etc, and I'm feeling more than a little patronised. The airline relies on an awful lot of goodwill, and mine is being used up very quickly.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Are you lot still negotiating, or not, for 2010 pay rise?

Shouldn't that be all finalised by now? Shouldn't you be lookng at next years pay rise? Where's Balpa in all of this and what have they been doing?

Rostering issues - How long did it take Balpa to take action on the Virgin dispute?! Why can't they do it for Flybe? No teeth?!

[judge11]

Gentlemen (and ladies), your only decision is which Monday morning none of you report for duty.

Until such time as that happens, you will achieve nothing against what is clearly an intransigent, exploitative (in the current climate) management.

And until you grasp the nettle and take on these people, who appear to have every interest in feathering their own nests (if the report of your CEO's grotesque pay-rise is true) while doing their level best to do nothing to improve your pay and working conditions, please refrain from bleating.

[Dr Eckener]

It's amazing G SXTY your change of attitude from posting threads on becoming an airline pilot to moaning on the same forum about said career, all within two years.

Try a couple of redundancies for size if you really want something to complain about. Do you even have a full ATPL yet? You are not in a bad position for someone of low experience, and I expect you still have time to run on your bond. I suggest you knuckle down, quit moaning, work off your bond, and then leave should be still be unhappy with your current employer. Flybe gave you your break. You should be a little more grateful.

[Coffin Corner]

Kiltie

What the hell are you on about? And what is your point? I don't get it.
The directors are at the sticky end, but their salaries already reflect this. If we all had a 2% payrise, including them then they would have a substantial amount more than us "in their hand" because they are already getting paid alot. They got 28%, we only want a miserly share of the profits. 28%, by anyone's standards, is bloody absurd when the rest of the workforce has had nothing.
Also by your theory of "we shouldn't have become pilots if we wanted to become rich" works the other way too. If you can't handle the heat as a director, then don't enter the kitchen, and just for your information, the directors are just expendable assets as well, we all are.
One last thing, we do work with a great bunch of people at Flybe. On behalf of myself and them, please feel free to shoot yourself. Cheers.

please refrain from bleating

This is a public forum, we can bleat all we want. BALPA (for what they are worth, and right now not alot) are in consultation with the management, we are standing by as a workforce to react as and when they (and we) see fit. We have as much right to bleat on here as anyone.

Have a nice day.

CC

[Lord Spandex Masher]

CC, good speech.

Are your colleagues feeling the same as you? Do you think they'll all step up to the plate this time and not back down?

Balpa should be asking for 15% minimum for all of you. That'll be a good starting point. What have they asked for?

[Hypo Thalamus]

Expect a 12 quid Marks & Spencer voucher for XMAS!

A healthy 20% pay-rise by my calculations.

[Coffin Corner]

Lord Spandex

The vast majority of the workforce do feel undermined, that is certainly the feeling I am getting, and the feeling I am getting from my base is that the workforce is standing united this time. Only time will deliver the verdict on that one though.
If I remember rightly the figure BALPA asked for is 6.1% for TP guys, and 5.1% for the jet guys plus some other "improvements".
One of the biggest things for me is the "lates to earlies" issue. More money is nice but if they just sorted out the lates to earlies that would be a big improvement in lifestyle. Also if they viewed FTLs as a limit rather than a target that would be nice too but hey.
If BALPA fail to deliver this time then I am cancelling my ridiculously overpriced subscription for good, as will alot of others.

Hypo Thalamus

£12? I always thought it was £10 ;)

[Hypo Thalamus]

Coffin Corner

Your 10 pound M&S voucher in 2000 will now cost you 12.80 quid.

You're now behind 28% on that little thank you from the company.. but who's counting eh.

[Old Nigel]

The longer this goes on the more flybe are saving .:hmm:

[choppercopper 99]

Well whatever % is agreed at the end of this process will be back dated to the start of this financial year. However Flybe will be saving the interest on that sum of money, and the way things are going we will already be in the next financial year.:ugh:

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well maybe you could suggest to Balpa that you've lost so much interest and that they should attempt to recover it from Flybe. See how much backbone Balpa have got.

[Calmcavok]

Now at stage 3 of the failure to agree process regarding pay.

[Rob82]

Given the fact that the directors got 28.5%, i think we should be asking for more than 6.1%/5.1%. I'm not talking 28.5%, although that would be nice, maybe 10-15%, as well as a rise in FDP, disruptiuon payments etc.

The company made good profits during the worst recession since the company was formed, not to mention all the de-icing last xmas and volcanic ash. The business model obviously works, who knows how much profit we will make this year but i would bet it will be a good amount.

At the end of the day they just need to get the books looking as good as they can so they can retire rich men/women when the time comes to float. But how much is the company worth when the workforce is threatening strike action etc.

As for the xmas voucher. Remember they will give it to cancer research (and probably claim tax back on it) if you don't fill the form in and return it by tomorrow saying you want your £10.

[Too Little too late]

Turnover maintained at £570.5 million (2008/09 £572.4 million).
One of only three European major airlines to report profits throughout the global recession, with profit before tax* of £6.8 million (2008/09: £12.8 million). Profit before tax, after exceptional, integration and restructuring items, of £5.7 million (2008/09 £0.1 million).
EBITDAR** up 4.7% to £93.8 million (2008/09: £89.6 million) and EBITDAR margin increased to 16.4% (2008/09: 15.7%).
Ancillary revenues per passenger increased by 15.9% to £11.98 per passenger (2008/09 £10.34)
Operating cash inflow before restructuring of £50.9 million generated in the year (2008/09: £31.4 million).
Net debt more than halved to £21.0 million (2008/09: £49.8 million).

So, in addition to a profit of £5.7m, there was enough other "non-profit, profit" to pay off £29m of debt! Doesn't sound like a business that's on it's arse and can't afford a reasonable payrise for it's employees.

If they would just treat us and our elected representatives with some respect it would be a start. Perhaps from there we could negotiate like professionals and avoid the need for embarrassing industrial action.

I'm glad to see that finally pilots have woken up and smelt the coffee. There is real anger in the crewrooms now. Time for Jim and co to wake up to the new mood.

[assymetricdrift]

... Maybe somebody can confirm this one too...

Haven't the Cabin Crew agreed with Untie that their pay deal will equal the pilots pay deal if it is more than they were offered?

Could it possibly be that maybe, this 5.1%/6.1% increase will have a reprecussion across the entire of the Flight Crew of the company?

Holding on for the 5.1%/6.1% increase is the right course of action. We, as flight crew, for this airline, are very underpaid.

As someone I knows girlfriend says: "A hairdresser earns more than you do".

I'm glad to see that it has got to Stage 3 - this is also about showing the company that we are prepared to fight for any future changes in T&Cs.

[clanger32]

Too little too late,
First up, I tend to agree that if the directors have given themselves a 20%+ pay rise, then they really, really should be addressing what is very poor pay for the crews, even in current circumstances. That's just straight unforgivable.

However, with respect, your analysis of their financial results is very naive. Using a £5.9m pre tax profit as evidence of why they should give a big payrise (paragraph 1 not withstanding) is absolutely green.
A) 5.9m as a % of 570m turnover is just over 1% (assuming reported figures are accurate). That is NOT the profit margin of a company that is absolutely tickety boo, it's the profit margin of a company that is barely staying alive. It's indicative of how bad the industry is at the moment that this one of only three that made a profit at all.

B) Nice Mr Taxman will be coming along and asking for a slice of that £5.9m

C) I don't know how many flight crew BE employ, but pay rises across an entire employee class gets very expensive, very quickly. [That said, if BE have 500 crew, it's a fair bet that the directors increases alone would fund a £1000 pa rise - and on BE salaries, that would be very worth having i'd think!]

[Lord Spandex Masher]

There are, I believe, about 700 pilots at Flybe.

Average salary is roughly 45,000.

D8 f/o - 25,000
D8 Capt - 54,000
195 f/o- 38,000
195 Capt - 60,000

Basic salaries there or thereabouts.

10% pay rise is roughly a total of £3,100,000
5% - about £1,600,000
2% - £630,000
0.2% - £63,000

The 0.2% is a disgusting joke, the 2% aint much better.

I'm sure somebody could easily work out the total pay rises (28%) of the directors for comparison.

[fly-dj]

Correct me if I am wrong, but that 28% pay rise the directors gave themselves was from the same year everybody else in the company had to take a pay freeze because there was no money in the pot?? They really are taking the piss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[clanger32]

5rings
I think you've totally misunderstood what i was saying. The results posted are remarkable given the economic climate. However the point i was making is that [remarkable as it is to have made ANY profit] it is not the kind of profit where the company can just say "right, 25% across the board it is then"

That said, it IS very wrong (IMHO) that the directors have found another 25% or whatever for themselves, whilst everyone else is on poor pay for the industry.

That said, I have no doubt FlyBE remains one of the most stable and financially secure companies in aviation to work for.

[PaulJ1957]

A few key points on the accounts to help the debate along (2010 refers to the year to March 2010: 2009 to the year to March 2009)

Turnover (ie sales) was broadly the same at £570.5m (2009 : £572.4m)
There are various ways that accountants and analysts look at profit. I summarise the 3 most relevant ones which give the best picture of how the co has performed
Operating profit from continuing operations is shown in the accounts at £8.2m (2009: £6.1m ) – a 34% increase. In fairness however this isn’t a true picture as 2009 had some very big “exceptional” costs relating to integration, aircraft impairment costs which reduced that years profit – which thus somewhat flatters 2010
However most airline businesses use a measure called EBITDAR (earnings before interest, tax, depreciation , amortisation and aircraft rents payable – excluding exceptional items). This gives by far the best view of underlying performance In the flybe press release of 20th September 2010 this EBITDAR figure is quoted as being up 4.7% to £93.8m (2009 :: £89.6m). This indicates a very creditable performance in a difficult market BUT I really think it’s been calculated incorrectly (see below)
Without wanting to get too much into accounting speak, I think the calculation of the “amortisation” bit has been cocked up for 2009. I reckon that the 2010 EBITDAR is c£93m, but that the 2009 EBITDAR is actually only £72m. If so this represents a fairly whopping 29% increase in underlying profit. I may be wrong on this: but I really really don’t think so.
This increase in (the correctly calculated) EBITDAR is absolutely supported by the cash inflow from operations which is £50.9m compared to £31.4m in 2009. Cash is king and this in conjunction with EBITDAR is the best measure of what a good year flybe had.
I suspect undoubtedly that the performance has been boosted by the Greek tie up, but details of the profit aren’t given.
Total Directors pay went up by 28.5% (from £1.4m to £1.8m) on an unchanged Board off Directors (is it a coincidence that this is about the same % as the increase in the EBITDAR if my views on its calculation is correct?). Highest paid Directors pay went up from £0.5m to £0.6m – 20% increase.
Average pay of all staff (note 7) went up 0.3% . This actually includes the Directors and if they’re taken out I reckon the average pay per person actually went down by c 3% (clearly people come and go – but it’s a clue

Hope this helps guys. Sorry if it’s a bit “accounting” but in summary 2010 was a much much better year than is apparent from a first view of the figures ! Also remember what a positive outlook was given in the press release for 2010-11

Best of luck in your "negotiations"

[SEAMASTER]

Hi Guys and Girls

Sorry hav'nt really been reading all this thread so tell me to shut up if it has already been mentioned but have you considered a pay rise in your sector pay or adding a flight pay per sector payment. This saves the company N.I. payments and an increase in pension contributions based on your salary. Take home pay vastly increases but other items ie company pension contributions, LOL, death in service remains the same. Just a thought.

Cheers.

[Too Little too late]

Clanger32,

perhaps you'd like to read my post again before giving me the "naive" and "green" labels.

I can work out percentages quite nicely, ta.

I was referring to the fact that the company has generated enough cash to pay off a huge amount of debt. If it were to perform as well next year nearly £50m of debt would have been cleared in 2 years and the profit next year would be even greater. Imagine the profit the following year having cleared all the debts. My point is that £5.9m or whatever is not the story here. It's the bigger picture that needs to be seen - not just the headline profit that they've decided to put out.

I realise that cash can be generated in other ways than sales revenue, but if the "family" could have gotten their money back by offloading assets I'm sure they would have done this earlier.

[Old Nigel]

good point fly-dj !!!
How much have the directors awarded themselves this year,after making a profit.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So out of curiosity what is the general feeling if the company come back with a 3% or 4% offer?

Roll over...again and accept the standard line of "we can't afford anymore than that...honest!"

Push for 5% only, or go for more than that?

Bearing in mind that JF was able to give himself a 25% rise because everyone else took a pay freeze.

It's time to turn the screws even further is it not?

[Otto Throttle]

For those wishing to emulate the directors' pay, be very careful what you wish for. Last year, when we were on a pay freeze, the directors took a double-digit pay cut. Seems to have slipped everybody's attention.

If you want to volunteer for a double digit pay cut on your miserly pay, carry on fools. For those whining that they can't afford to live on their current wage, imagine how much worse it would be with a 14% pay cut before taking into account the effect of inflation making it worse.

And as for all the guff about not paying market rate, might I suggest a basic economics lesson. Market rate is determined by supply and demand, and as the company is not struggling to obtain a healthy supply of pilots, it doesn't need to improve the price. Tough but true.

Until this changes, JF and his team will not be putting up the price. Whinging costs the company nothing, and until the moany workforce finally put their money where their mouths are, nothing will change, and even then the company will play it out to the last possible moment to minimise their costs.

Rather than moan about the management, why not moan about your ineffectual BALPA reps. You voted for them, and continue to keep them as your reps, so if they aren't delivering, do something about it. Changing your BALPA rep is something you can influence, and it may finally pay you dividends.

[Coffin Corner]

Funny Otto

Maybe on Planet Zorg where you come from you can see someone suggesting a 28% pay increase for pilots, but I can't see it anywhere.

I do agree with you about BALPA though, maybe we need to look closer to home as to why we're getting nowhere with this pay deal. They keep spouting about how we have new people on the committee and it's a fresh start etc, but the same person is running the chocolate factory. Herein could lie the problem. My subscription is ready to leave BALPA's bank account so fast they won't even get a glimpse of it on the way out.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Guys take another look at the figures in post 34.

Flybe are mocking you, openly, blatantly and without remorse.

With those figures in mind it is NOT unreasonable to be asking for at least 10%.

I don't know if any of you have bothered to work it out but if only half of the pilot work force at Flybe are paying Balpa 1% of the average salary (about 45K) that works out at over ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN THOUSAND POUNDS. And what, exactly, have Balpa done to deserve that? It is time to make them work for you, right now.

Guys, do not lie back and think of England this time. Flybe are in rude financial health no doubt about that. It's time to take your piece of the profit for a change, and it's about time.

[assymetricdrift]

I have faith in the BALPA reps on this issue.

The main problem with FlyBE would be that in the past, the company traditionally has had a rapid turnaround of pilots. The result is that for every Captain or FO who leaves the company, there would be a non-stop stream of pilots on tap from the flight schools and FOs ready for the upgrade from within the ranks.

This recession has effectively blighted the entire issue now though - for the last 2 1/2 years, the work force has remained more or less the same, and as a result, people are not progressing through the payscales at the rate that the company intended. So we have a situation whereby a lot of pilots, who either would have moved on, gone onto the jet, got commands etc... have been stuck in rank. As a result, all that has really happened is that we have crawled rather slowly up the ranks of the payscale... Now, as FlyBE has always had that rapid form of pilot recruitment in its mind, it now faces a problem with a largely discontented workforce, who cannot move anywhere (Turboprop hours not counting, no other airlines recruiting etc...). As a result, it's high time the company addressed this issue.

As a pilot, I do enjoy the work for the airline. The routes are varied, the crews are good fun, and the Dash is a tart to fly. I'm sure most of the other crews feel the same about this. FlyBE has the potential to be a great career airline for those that want it. But at the moment, it is very much stuck in the regional UK mentality.

The results that PaulJ1957 posted are incredibly interesting. It does show a company that are performing ahead of all expectations throughout the recession. The money made in Greece is clearly tied up in the complicated terms, with the hope that it will be overlooked. But with the analysis there, it can be seen that actually, if the pre-tax profit is only £5.7 million, there is probably quite a lot more locked up in and hidden away in EBITDAR.

Just my two cents on this... It will be interesting to see what BALPA do about it.