vectoring

[l39]

Please excuse my stupid questions....
All answers appreciated no matter what they are.

When the new vector is issued how often you ask the crew “report heading“in order to give them new one, and then “turn right/left” heading...?. What is the point of knowing present heading, so as to be able to vector the traffic to the left/right, if you just can say “turn 15 degrees to the left/right”?
If you want the crew to keep their heading for a short time, are you interested in this heading at all, or just say “maintain heading”? In this situation some pilots would report it without being asked to do so, according to the company policy.

Thanks in advance

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If the controller issues a new heading there is no need to ask the crew to report their new heading. What sometimes happens is when an aircraft is on its own navigation but ATC wishes to vector it, the controller may say "Turn right ten degrees and report your new heading". The controller then knows what radar heading the aircraft is on.

If a controller wants an aircraft to fly a particular heading, that heading then becomes a "radar heading" which the pilot will fly until otherwise instructed. It is essential, particularly in strong wind conditions, that the controller knows what that heading is.

[l39]

Thanks HD.
I know its fundamental knowledge, but some controllers never ask the crew what the present heading is, before giving to them new one. The others do it every time.

I was just asking myself which one is right, taking into account all the factors like spot wind, the position of the A/C which are to be vectored for separation….. for instance.

Anyway, thanks once again.

[Talkdownman]

If vectoring is required for air traffic control reasons (rather than navigational assistance) then normally two or more aircraft are involved. Aircraft may be given specific vectors to fly in order to establish separation. It may be necessary for a controller to know the heading of an aircraft. In the case of matching parallel headings knowledge of the heading is necessary.

Separation can often be established by instructing an aircraft to continue on its existing heading. If an aircraft track is already acceptable then it may be 'locked' on its heading ('Continue present heading') without knowledge of the heading. If knowledge of the heading is necessary 'continue present heading and report that heading'.

The UK definitive reference is CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf) Chapter 5 Page 4

[millerman]

If you are going to give the aircraft more than one turn I would ask for the heading as it sounds more professional saying turn right heading .. rather than turn right 5 degrees, then turn right another 10 degrees! Or if you need to put an aircraft behind on a similar heading I would ask the first aircraft for the heading.
Also if it is a simple conflict and right 5 degrees is enough I wouldn't bother asking for the heading as it just wastes frequency time.
Nowadays, with mode S downlink we have the heading of the aircraft on our screens so we can use that and not bother the crew!!!:ooh:

[Over+Out]

In TC we do not need to ask your heading, we can have a quick look at your mode S readout.

[l39]

Thanks to all the ATCOs sharing their opinions.


Regards
L39

[Talkdownman]

If you are going to give the aircraft more than one turn I would ask for the heading as it sounds more professional saying turn right heading .. rather than turn right 5 degrees, then turn right another 10 degrees
Agreed. The ATCO should be the one doing the maths. Much more professional (and in control...) to specify the compass heading required.

[Tarq57]

When I was an area controller, I used either method, depending on the situation.

If I needed someone to turn, I'd tell them to do that and add "..and report new heading"

If it was probable I'd be vectoring them in the near future, or just needed them to continue their present heading, I'd ask them what it was.

(In either case, the heading assigned was written on the strip.)

Procedures I'd use for vectoring would change quite a bit, situation to situation, especially where large altitude changes were occurring, as most of the routes were N/S, and typically the wind - which could easy be 70kt+ aloft, was from the W.

[chevvron]

If you're handed over to a new controller on an assigned heading, you should report the heading on first contact unless advised otherwise.(eg'callsign only to ...'etc)

[BrATCO]

Amazing how SOPs are the same all over the World !

I've worked in APP and ACC, I do agree with the whole above !
Amazing !


Just for fun, about parallel tracks (and why not use "parallel headings") :

I had once a B738 and a BA46.
Got to turn them on parallel tracks.
Strong Westerly wind.
The B738 (on the left) was given a heading of 075, the BA46 (right) was steering 060 and their tracks were slightly diverging (1 deg measured on the screen).
The co-ordinator passed the message to the next sector : "They're on parallel, converging headings, slightly diverging tracks"...

[ATCO Two]

Also nothing wrong with "fly heading", which avoids turn left/right confusion.
And by the way, in the UK there is no such thing as a "radar heading"...but I would be interested to know what people think the term means.

[BrATCO]

"Radar heading":
As I understand it, "Radar", when said on the frequency, means that the controller uses the radar to provide the clearance.

I don't use "radar heading" because I can't provide a "heading" without a "radar".
However, I happen to say "radar, climb/descend" when the pilot has already received a traffic info, the traffic is still a bit close in regard of my minima and I imply that the traffic has been taken in account in my clearance.
I don't use it often.


As for right/left errors (they happen), I prefer the pilot asks for a confirmation before he makes a 355 deg turn.;)
I've already given a 270 deg left clearance, my message was : "Turn left, I confirm LEFT heading 240, sequencing action : turn LEFT heading 240".
That phraseology was certainly boring... But the pilot turned left.

[JonDyer]

If you're handed over to a new controller on an assigned heading, you should report the heading on first contact unless advised otherwise.(eg'callsign only to ...'etc)

I thought this was because there is no actual requirement to state anything but last assigned altitude on handover making it necessary to explicitly request that pilots state their heading?

[Quintilian]

I do it quite often to get an idea about the wind conditions (all A/C enters my APP-sector inbound a certain point; so by using a quick mouse-gesture on the monitor I'll get the current TRACK of the aircraft. When I get their heading I know the difference between these is the current wind-deviation (at that certain altitude).

[LostThePicture]

Talkdownman said:

Agreed. The ATCO should be the one doing the maths. Much more professional (and in control...) to specify the compass heading required.

Absolutely. "Turn right heading 365". :}