Flight Training in Brazil [Archive]

adavis2088

14th Oct 2010, 03:30

i've been working hard to learn Portuguese. but i don't think i will be very good at it until i live in brazil. I want to do my flight training in brazil. my only problem is i can't write Portuguese. I was wondering does anybody know where i can do flight training in brazil with a english speaking flight instructor. i know that i will have to learn to speak Portuguese and write it better. but i want to continue my flight training while i'm doing this. Dose anybody know where they have english speaking flight instructors. i'm child in brazil so i do have permanent residency . i just want to know if somebody can let me know where i can find english speaking flight instructor in Rio de Janeiro so i can flight train . and go to school and learn to speak and write Portuguese better.

varigflier

14th Oct 2010, 15:28

If I were you I'd do my flight training in the US. Cheaper and better quality of training. As for learning to speak Portuguese, I agree with you, it's better to do it in Brazil.

VF

TOFFAIR

14th Oct 2010, 19:31

Were are you from? Why do you want to do your training in Brazil, and what are your intentions flying here, private or comercial. As VF stated its cheaper and of a higher quality to do it in the US, if youre in TX like your profile shows, then you have one of the best training environements around you already. Get your license there and convert it here when youre done, despite, you cant rent a plane to do time over here and i guess you dont own a plane, do you?
If you want to learn portuguese dont try to learn with books or teachers from Portugal, Brazilian Portuguese is a litle bit different and this can confuse you until you get proficient. You ll find close to Rio Jacarepagua or Marica Aeroclubs, who might by a chance happen to have someone who speaks English, but CFIs nowadays arent staying long instructing due to an improved hiring environement.
Good luck though!

adavis2088

17th Oct 2010, 17:15

I live in texas. and I'm having my first child in brazil. and the teacher I was talking too said it only cost 1,300 reals per month to train at his school. compared to me paying $200 for 1 hour of training. and yes my intentions is to go commercial. all the way through CFI. and i will be going through the naturalization process because i want a career with a Brazilian airline. so i would like to start living there now to get familiar with the language and start the naturalization process . So that is why i want to do my training there

varigflier

17th Oct 2010, 19:54

R$1300 a month? How many hours would you be doing? The going rate for a seneca is around R$1000 per hour. Be careful what you wish for........

flyingswiss

18th Oct 2010, 01:05

A CPL+CFI is cheaper in Brazil then in the US, you won`t have the same amount of hours, but if you are looking to work as a CFI it does not really matter if you have 50-80 more hours.

The training in Brazil is poor as far as aeronautical knowledge (every school does what they want and there is no control by ANAC on the training material and here you may have problems with English, since not many places have English teachers for gorundschool) and the CFI training does not teach you much to improve your CPL knowledge. The IFR flying in the CPL is made of about 10 approaches (and maybe 20 in a 25 years old ATC simulaor), in the US you can do several approaches in one flight, in Brazil NO (and most of the time you will have to fly a X-country to find something different then a NDB)!, most of the time you will be on a 10 DME course reversal or holding while ATC lets the 3rd ATR land straight in ahead of you. I have been to 4 schools and none of them allow intentional IMC flying or let you take off below mins even if there is radar.

The nice thing is that there are a lot of tailwheel planes still used, which will improve your stick and rudder.

Multi Engine training is pretty poor too, some schools write down the hours required but in the reality you only do 7-8 (I think the min is 15), I won`t mention any names but it`s a pretty big school in the Rio area. VMC??? never saw one, single engine with the engine OFF not a Zero thrust (there is a huge difference) never saw one, most planes here don`t have accumulators and I guess the MEIs are not trained well enough to use a starter in flight without breaking it.

English speaking CFIs? you won`t find many because they are probably working for an airline, the ones in Marcia (EDP and QNE) have all been picked up by WebJet.
In Juiz the Fora MG there are 3 of them. ACdoB in Jacrepagua has only one (none that fly the twin) and the Acro CFI also speaks English there.

Ground school?? I went to SkyLab, these peoples are crazy, 3 days to learn how to use an E6B??? a week about Weight and balance (what about one day of it but then every time you fly you actually do it)??? weather was like a month of class????? Some teacher even tell you wrong things, I had a 737 capt telling me that DA and DH are the same thing in term of numbers????

If you want my advice stay in the US! go to a 141 school, get everything done in 8-10 months (CPL ME SE IR CFI), start teaching in the US and then if you still want to go to Brazil go and convert.

flyingswiss

18th Oct 2010, 01:35

where do you live in Texas, I know the Aviation in the Houston and Austin area pretty well, and now it`s the right time to start training up there.

200$$$/hour????

Not even flight safety charges this much....

The average FBO in Texas will have a C172P for less then 100 dollars/hour and 20-30 more dollars for an S or SP model or a PA28-161/181 , CFI you can find some for 25 other for 40-50 dollars/hour. But if you want to get it done fast go to a 141 school.

if you live in the North east of the state, try to look at places in kansas you can get really cheap training there, look at this place Star Bright Aviation (http://starbrightaviation.com/programs.html) Star Bright Aviation (http://starbrightaviation.com/services.html)

TheBP

18th Oct 2010, 10:51

I'm going to have to chime in here, basically to echo what others have already written: Investigate/think extremely carefully before proceeding with the idea.

I thought extremely seriously about it, given that I had permanent residency and entitlement to naturalize. But have you thought about the fact naturalization might take many years? I used to think the bureaucracy in the UK could be frustrating, but in Brazil it's just taken to a whole new level. Expect to be given different answers by different people.

Combine that with the fact that once I visited a school and the instructor couldn't even explain a basic theoretical concept. For the sake of my own personal respect and desire to be as good aviator as possible - it was game over for me by that stage.

Brazil from the outside is a beautiful country and it does have some great people, but despite the growth/future potential - First World it surely isn't yet. Of all the pilots I've spoke to there, they all thought I was insane to even consider leaving Europe. Literally. I had one laughing. My conclusion is they were right.

Check out some of the posts about working schedules too if you want to see your child grow up..

Certainly $200/hour is crazy and you need to shop around as you'll find way better deals.

In your situation I'd stay in the US without hesitation. Perhaps if you haven't started training already Brazil might not appear so bad.

This post appears awfully negative, but I feel an obligation to be truthful. If however you do decide to go for it - boa sorte.

flyingswiss

18th Oct 2010, 14:16

TheBP: this is the way I feel too about Brazil, most Brazilian will not admit it because they have never been outside, but all the Brazilian pilots I met that work or worked abroad told I was crazy to move here and try to get a job flying.

There is a lot of talking about how things are going great in Aviation here, I think most of them are lies, the fact is that getting a job now it`s the same thing then it was 10-20-30 years ago. Now there are more jobs but there are also more pilots that can afford flight training.

I don`t know who has the fault, ANAC, the govt, the pilots,....but things don`t work! for a country that on a daily bases brags on how they are becoming a world economic power. There are a lot of good peoples with really good ideas, but there are a lot of peoples involved in aviation with a huge attitude, companies think they are so special they don`t need to answer e-mails.

I`m still trying to make it here...but for not much longer

KRUGERFLAP

19th Oct 2010, 02:48

I agree that work as pilot nowadays in Brasil is a stupidity even for brazilians,because of the pay scale and the conditions ,but there is no country like BRASIL to live and ,i miss that a lot being a expat t for almost 4 years.Brasil is a country that accepts everybody,that people are happy by nature,and if you live in Rio de Janeiro you will be bless with the most beautifull city and people in the world.

By the way wellcome to my City and Enjoy!

MORANTE

19th Oct 2010, 02:56

I´ve just readen what some of you have posted here and the only thing I can feel is sadness. It is not truth, that CFI´s in Brazil have no knowledge, it is not truth that you won´t have the opportunity to learn how to fly right here, though is also not truth that you won´t have a chance to get a job in aviation. I´m european, and got my private pilot license there, but I live in Brazil since the last year, when I decided to become a commercial pilot. I made here the complete course to obtain my CPL IFR MLTE license, and nearly all I can say is good from people, schools and things that I´ve learned.

I marriaged a brazilian girl 10 years ago and I´m about to get my "nationalization", since it is a must if you want to work here in aviation, at least legally.

For sure you will find better schools in the States, with better and newer planes, and probably better CFI´s, but I can assure you that you will also find the right people here in Brazil. I´ve learned a lot, flown lots of different planes, in intense weather conditions and the in best ones, and I´m very proud of the people that have helped me to become what I am now.

Pilots here know how to fly, of course in real IFR conditions, because in many cases the planes are old (60´s, 70´s, 80,s), specially in the schools, and
that´s something that improves their skills, needing to deal with more difficulties.

About the theoretical teaching, the programs meets ICAO´s requirements and you get a good aknowledege to get the tests passed.

Of course, living in Brazil is a step down in terms of life quality, security, health services, education and most of the good things what we are acostumed in our first world countries.

Sadly, to have a good friend when you need it is still the best way to get where you need or want, that´s how things works here.

Sorry for the people that is unable to find a job, it is not so difficult, it is more a question of determination. Obviously you have to work hard and do things that you don´t expected to do, and fly "things" that can scare you, but it is the way to achieve your objectives.

Good luck for all of you!

flyingswiss

19th Oct 2010, 13:39

I'm sure there is good places to fly in Brazil, good schools (maybe in SP or RS), but everything I saw so far, in RJ and MG, it's really low and bad standards. Lots of schools have instructors with 170-200 hours, the CFI course is a total joke, have you ever looked at the INVA book?????? single engine commercial maneuvers???

I us to work for Flight Safety, and we use to train lots of Brazilian pilots coming to the US to get a FAA license, most of the time to fly then a king Air or a CE back to Brazil. Before flying they would have to take a written test, which was pretty much a copy of an ATPL written test and an oral with an ATP CFI, most pilots would not pass the written test and have huge weakness in basic knowledge (examples compass errors, how an attitude indicator works,....) , they would do fine in the Sim, in the plane and they piloting skills were good.

The FAA, unless you have a PLA won't convert your Brazilian pilot license, they give you a PPL (restricted to Day), but you have to take the ME, IR, ME-IR-CPL and if you want it the SE-CPL, and all written tests (you also need an high score in a TOEFL if you go to a 141 school) guess why is that??? We had some students with Australian CPL and all they had to do was an IFR part 61 ride and a ck to get the multi or single add on, not all ICAO is good.

I know and met some really nice pilots, and most pilots do have good skills, like you said by flying old planes and stuff like that.

I'm 100% sure that 10-20 years ago things were a lot better.

The military Aviation in Brazil is really good, and there are some nice standards there, at Flight Safety we use to do UTR training to FAB pilots, they were all really good!!!!!!!

have you tried to get a job in Brazil???

I can bring you the example of my gf, she is Brazilian and American, has over 300TT120ME (120 not 12), has most FAA endorsements, FAA and Brazilian CPL, more then 100 hours in technically advanced planes, is fluent in 4 languages, English level 6, graduate from the best flight school in the US with high grades. She has applied to about 30 companies all over Brazil and went in person to talk to the CP of most taxi aereo in our area. Her dad was a former Varig 747 capt and got her some contacts, but result NO JOB, what does it takes to get hired then??

flyingswiss

19th Oct 2010, 13:46

and do things that you don´t expected to do, and fly "things" that can scare you, but it is the way to achieve your objectives.

this is why things suck here, for attitudes like this, and things won't change until peoples stop flying like this....CRM!!!!!!!!!!

Soave_Pilot

19th Oct 2010, 17:30

Why the in the world would you rather train in Brazil? You are out of your mind man.:ugh:

Do it in the US. I am a Brasilian and I did mine over there, way better training and you will end up with a FAA ticket in your wallet, much more respect when it comes to the airline bizz.

flyingswiss

19th Oct 2010, 18:54

If you do your training in the US and then convert in Brazil, it will still take you less then do all the ratings in Brazil.

If you know how things work and get help from somebody that already did the conversion in Brazil it will go faster.

I did my FAA ME CPL in about 8 months and I was lazy, saw peoples doing it in 6 and be a CFI in a total of 8.

in one year from now you could be sitting in Copacabana with your Brazilian CPL, the CFI you will have to get it there, you don`t need to take ground school, it`s really easy the test, INVA part is a joke, then some aeronautical knowledge and a boero test, after that you fly 20 something hours and you get the "CFI".

MORANTE

19th Oct 2010, 20:35

Hi, I´m not defending any part, I´m only relating my own experience. If you want to compare, there is nothing to compare, as I told in my last email the best of aviation is in the USA.

If you want to hear personal experience, I will tell you that I´ve lived in Spain the first 35 years of my life, I´m Economist, graduated by the University of Granada, worked some years in banks and became, first glider pilot, and then private pilot several years ago. When I came to Brazil my decision was to do what I always wanted to do, that is to fly, and finished my course obtaining the CPL-IFR-MLTE ratings.

Refering to your words, when you said that you have to take all the written test and checkride there to obtain the FAA license, there was nothing new. If you, a fellow with an FAA license, would try to convert your license to a JAA´s one, would have to do also the complete written test and checkride.

Licenses, most of the cases are valid in your country or area (like the european union), and if you want to fly in another country need to make the conversion.

I´m very happy with the knowledge that I have after doing the course in Brazil, nothing quite different than in other country. As you know, JAA requirements to obtain a license are quite higher than FAA´s, and I have the private pilot JAA license, and really, don´t think that the level is really far than in other countries.

Pilots that you say you trained, maybe are "old" pilots that forgot most of things, or it is just a question of "individuals". I like what I do and I paid a lot of attention to get the maximum that I could.

In terms of quality in the flying skills, nothing to claim, I´ve learned a lot with several planes and today, I can say that I could fly most of single´s and lots of multi-engine planes with no problem.

To get a job is not so difficult as you say, I was flying without paying before finishing my hours, and now I´m about to get my first job in a Seneca, with only 220 hours on my log book. What I always had in mind is that if you want to work in aviation, you cannot sit in front of your computer sending CV´s in the hope of somebody hire you to fly a 737, the only way is the active way, and you must be able to fly the first thing that appears, call it a C152 or a Baron 58.

Why would I wanted to have a FAA license? I plan to live and work in Brazil, and for me is good enough the license that I have.

Cheers

chileno 777

20th Oct 2010, 00:27

I can bring you the example of my gf, she is Brazilian and American, has over 300TT120ME (120 not 12), has most FAA endorsements, FAA and Brazilian CPL, more then 100 hours in technically advanced planes, is fluent in 4 languages, English level 6, graduate from the best flight school in the US with high grades. She has applied to about 30 companies all over Brazil and went in person to talk to the CP of most taxi aereo in our area. Her dad was a former Varig 747 capt and got her some contacts, but result NO JOB, what does it takes to get hired then??

Probably more TT or having the right (psychological) profile.

It is true that pilot job market is improving in Brazil but honestly speaking think that 300 hrs are still very low. Has she tried as a CFI?

Could you pls name what is the “best flight school of US’”? Who appointed it? Do not remember any official institution making a ranking of US flight schools.

BTW “high grades” usually (and unfortunately) do not make any difference to find a job in aviation. Most of the time is the TT & knowing the right people.

flyingswiss

20th Oct 2010, 00:55

I flew and took tests under JAA and FAA, the training syllabus is a lot different, the idea of training is a lot different too. In Europe it`s mostly knowledge based, you really fly little and do 1/3 of most performance maneuvers there are for single engine and multi engines, in the US training is done the same way it was in WWI, a single engine CPL is done the same way, and some maneuvers you have to perform are based on combat situations (eights on pylons). Knowledge in the US is what you need to fly and nothing more, in Europe you need to know a bunch of crap you will never need.

a JAR PPL is up to the country you take it in, even the requirements for a frozen ATPL are a lot different depending on the country. As far as doing a conversion from a FAA license, the actual JAR regulation only requires you to take 12 of the 14 written subjects and there is no minimum solo PIC time like in the UK, this is the base then every country does what they want, some just follow the UK system. Even the medical, you get a JAR FCL, but the test and requirements are a lot different depending on the country you take it.
I did my JAR training under the airforce and it was tailored to this type of needs and was really similar to what I learned later on under FAA.

FAA is a fair system, they have a PTS, while in Europe and especially Brazil all the rides are subjective.

To fail a ck ride in Europe needs a talent, in the ride you will do the same flight you did 20 times in the training, so if you got signed up and you failed then it`s your CFIs fault.

In Brazil you don`t get tested on things because most of the ck airmans them self can`t do them. I know somebody that had an emergency on a CP ME IR ride out of Juiz de Fora, and the Ck airman was not able to handle it and the CFI had to jump up front in the plane and save everybody on board, was summer, single engine and the SE absolute ceiling was just 1000` over airport elevation...it ended up with an emergency landing.

In the US, everything can happen, the PTS lets the ck airman to pick a task out of the common.

One thing I really like about training in the US is the emphasis on training emergencies.

We own a Seneca II, what insurance company in Brazil allows a 220 TT pilot to act PIC? please tell me so that I can get a quote since they asked me to have 50 hours on type or a PLA? you said it`s a company what about RBHA 135 minimums? do you meet them with 220, or are you one of those pilots that are flying outside the rules and the operators takes this as advantage to pay you peanuts?

I`m sure there is jobs, if you work for cruzerios or even for free.

What flight school did you went to in Brazil?

abraco

flyingswiss

20th Oct 2010, 01:10

Chileno: the fligth school is Flight Safety Academy, why is it the best?

Lufthansa trains there, Swiss trains there, Air Berlin trains there, FAB sends pilots there, Air China trains there, Saudia Arabia trains there, Nigerian and Ghana Air force train there, the US Army trains there, cargo Lux trains there, Asiana and Korean trains there,.....

In the past most US regionals use to send their pilot there.

facility: ERJ145, Saab 2000, BE C90, CE510 simulators, over 100 airplanes: PA28, PA44, PA34, C172 glass cockpit, Extra and a citation CJ2.

pass rate is 80% not 70% like the FAA requires you.

the part 62 ck airman at FSA was a former Air force one pilot.

ground instructors are all ATP CFI, IGI, AGI and have more then 20K hours flying from the Vietnam to 747s all over the world.

In order to have the certification they have they have to keep a 80% pass rate on the first attempt of a ck ride, this means that the training has to be of the highest level. FSA is also ISO 9001.

Not to mention Flight Safety Academy is part of Flight Safety international.

FlightSafety International is the world’s premier professional aviation training company and supplier of flight simulators, visual systems and displays to commercial, government and military organizations. The company provides more than a million hours of training each year to pilots, technicians and other aviation professionals from 154 countries and independent territories. FlightSafety operates the world’s largest fleet of advanced full flight simulators at Learning Centers and training locations in the United States, Canada, France, Japan, South Africa and the United Kingdom.

chileno 777

20th Oct 2010, 01:30

Do not doubt that Flight Safety has excellent facilities, good instructors and many international airlines send their pilots to undergo the type rating over there… but to state that it is THE BEST flight school of US frankly think it’s too exaggerated. Also your judgment is based exclusively on your beliefs (not any official poll/market research exists regarding the best flight school) and hence it is absolutely subjective.

There are many good schools in USA and you should have said that FS is one of the best (and more expensive) flight schools in America.

As you probably know most of the time one can find a good and more individual tailored training going to a small school rather than a big fancy (sausage factory) school. Sometimes the training is even better than in the larger academy.

Do agree with you that US is the best place to obtain the CPL/ATPL in the world.

TOFFAIR

20th Oct 2010, 02:30

Lots of things said, personally, having experience and license in Europe US and Brazil I would recomend you, as you re local in the US do your license there!
Honestly, it will be the fastest way to obtain the license!
It will be probably the cheapest, at least the best value (what you get for the paid).
It will be easiest due to language (it is better to gain the knowledge of the theory in your mother language and then just have to learn the new vocabulary in Brazil. Many pilots here might have a good knowledge of aviation English, but I guess few will be fit enough to explain you more complex isssues.
Another thing is you can still do something for living there while you be taking lessons, in Brazil Parttime jobs are nearly inexistant, and most jobs want cover your expenses or leave you time enough to learn approprietely, and remember in Brazil, due to infrastructural weaknesses you may loose a looooot of time in traffic.
As said before, training environement here is bad, places to train IFR are mostly already congested busy airports, and often facilities have failures that last for a long time, like Belo Horizontes Confins airport is now with ILS inoperative for more then 2 month and it is Brazils 3rd biggest city!!!
If your heading to commercial aviation you need serious basics, flying some fancy old planes is something nice (for dreamers like me!!!), but this will not bring you up to the skills required in a eficient and economical manner.
Another point mentioned is school, unless you go to an expensive private school here, your education will be very very limited. For this reason and aditionally to the before also mentioned poor aviation courses required to pass Anacs exams, most companies are now preferably hiring copilots who attended some sort of academic courses, like ciencias aeronauticas from PUC in Porto Alegre or Fumec in BH and so on.. BUT on the other hand training in USA in schools like Flight Safety, Embry Riddle are very highly esteemed.
Next thing is still getting the job, dont think if you got the license in your hand the job will immediately be available, it took me 5 years of waiting, begging, door to door seeking until I got the opportunity (times were thougher then too!). But ususaly it takes a lot of patience and some steps have to be taken in the meantime which usualy means flying for food, and maybe taking some risks...

Dont want to be negative, there are plenty of opportunities still here. Flying in Brazil is also unique, especially in places like SDU, MAO, CWB, IGU, etc
Still, doing the training abroad is the better choice!

Good Luck!

flyingswiss

20th Oct 2010, 03:19

chileno:

you are right training at places like FSA is factory style, I did some part 61 training on a privately owned airplane with a dedicated CFI, I loved it but for somebody that needs to go fro 0 to hero a 141 school is the best, you can always get some endorsements at the local field in part 61, an other good thing about a 141 school are ck-rides, they are in-house, so you won't be waiting long to get them done, maybe one or two days, while to schedule with a DPE it can take more then a week and will also cost you a lot more (some charge 300$), if you fail a 141 ck ride it won't appear on any records. The best way to go, is SE PPL part 61 with private CFI or FBO and then ME PPL- ME IFR (so that you get some multi time) - ME CPL (if he is planning to go to Brazil no need for a SE CPL) in a 141 school.

If he wants to Instruct in the US, a 141 school is also an open door for an employment, if the market is good, 99% you will get hired by the school that trained you, you can build easy 80-90 hours a month, while this won't happen teaching part 61.

One more thing that can't beat training in the US, you go places!!! you fly to an airport, you go to an FBO and they will give you a car for free, you can drive to town for a bite or just cruise around, even with a small piston you will always be treated with respect, like any other pilot and you will NEVER, NEVER pay a $ for this services.

pdub20s

6th Nov 2010, 04:33

I talked to a taxi driver rescently here in Rio and he said that the lifted the ban on "gringo" pilots. This true? I dont believe it.

alemaobaiano

6th Nov 2010, 09:58

I talked to a taxi driver rescently here in Rio and he said that the lifted the ban on "gringo" pilots. This true? I dont believe it.

It`s under discussion, but no decision has been taken AFAIK. Not much is likely to happen during the transition to the new administration, the project still hasn't been through the Senate, and would depend on Presidential approval as well.

One factor is that it is "hidden" in a project that would increase the allowed limit of foreign financial control of Brazilian airlines, something that the new President is unlikely to approve given her stance on foreign ownership during the election campaign. It's an all-or-nothing situation, the parts of the project cannot be decided individually.

There is naturally a lot of opposition to the joint proposals, and apparently very little support. There are a number of counter proposals being put forward and if the LAN-TAM tie-up is seen as a success, within the current regulations, there isn't a lot of incentive to change. No change on the ownership rules means no change on pilot rules.

There was a project to allow foreign companies to operate airports here, but that seems to have died a slow death. Even if this proposal is passed it would require changes to the law, something that takes a very long time here.

TTFN

pdub20s

7th Nov 2010, 01:13

I dont understand the thinking here in Brasil. Im living here now and nothing is made simple for the people here. The processes everyone has to go through just to get an apartment let alone a bank account is just ridiculous. It took my 4 hours to resolve my FCPF issue because nobody but the Reciet Federal knew that a gringo could obtain a CPF let alone that the card is to be sent in the mail.

And the fact they wont allow foreign ownership of anything or participation is just ridiculous. It seems to me that there are powers that want to keep their feet on the neck of the people living here and not want to create more oportunity. And I watched the campaign commercials here and they talk like Washington is the Devil. Brasil is a wonderful country and the people here are awesome. But if the gov't wants to get rid of that "3rd world country" tag from under its name..then things need to change.

varigflier

7th Nov 2010, 01:53

It's a great country for vacation but living there is a nightmare...

alemaobaiano

7th Nov 2010, 08:44

And the fact they wont allow foreign ownership of anything or participation is just ridiculous.

Foreign participation is allowed up to 30%, the proposal is to increase that to 49%. Personally I can only see that as beneficial to Brazil, but then I'm not a politician.

As varigflier says, vacations here are one thing, living here is very different :ugh:

TTFN

flyingswiss

7th Nov 2010, 20:11

What you guys think about this:

CARTA ABERTA DOS AERONAUTAS S AUTORIDADES BRASILEIRAS Petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/caeron1/petition.html)

@pdub20s: where do you live? I`m also a gringo pilot living in Brazil, I live in Rio.

pdub20s

8th Nov 2010, 00:05

Niteroi, you?

flyingswiss

8th Nov 2010, 00:40

well I guess not far from you, I live in Icarai.

luisf4

15th Nov 2010, 15:11

question ....
im not a gringo piltot however ive been living abroad for 8 years working in emirates airlines and in the states too... i graduated in nevada for the aeronautics degree and i really dont think is a real problem to find a job for people like "us" here ...... i do agree that the trainning there in the us is a lot better but come on here is not bad as well... i say that because i ve been in daytona and i loved it it was my dream to be in embry riddle how ever i couldn't afford it ..... them many years later i sse my self walking into a flight school in brasil that has a cirrus and g1000 for initial training ?????
ok they use c 152's as well ..... as the infra-structure in brazil goes .... yeah it does bad ... it sucks ... however still better than dubai belive me .....
i still feel there are a lot o opportunities here you just have to look for it ......

flyingswiss

16th Nov 2010, 17:32

I can't evn imagine how much they charge for that cirrus....I heard that some school got a DA40....

TOFFAIR

16th Nov 2010, 21:46

I suppose youre talking about EJ, famous for schemes and training the 30K pilots...

Soave_Pilot

17th Nov 2010, 18:40

school in brasil that has a cirrus and g1000 for initial training ?????

You can learn to fly in whatever machine you want I guess, even in a King air... as long as you can afford it.

flyingswiss

17th Nov 2010, 21:49

Well ANA cadets in California do their first solo in A36 Bonanza, instrument and commercial in a B58 Baron...

As far as learning how to fly I think the Cirrus is a terrible plane to start on, it will not do most maneuvers the way a student needs to see them....even the school that uses them, have them as a marketing tool..

I do really hope that if any school here in Brazil trains in a Cirrus, uses FIST,SBT and a TAA syllabus to teach, unless it will just create a bunch of fly that will eventually hit something...

Junker-13

18th Nov 2010, 00:57

Did the training in Brasil change in the past 20 years?
Did the quality of training go down with ANAC?
Just curious.

flyingswiss

18th Nov 2010, 16:33

I can`t speak of how it was 20 years ago, as far as the quality of training I doubt anything changed, I mean the same airplanes used 20 years ago are still here, the manuals and the syllabus of each school is probably still the same...I think there is a huge potential for improvement....

What is really missing in Brazil is standardization of CFIs and the use of Practical Test Standards.

What I don`t get is how easy is to get a rating, at most flight schools the Ck Airman is either a former student or a friend of the clube. It also amazes me how you can become a ck airman without having any experience.

The training is not safety focused and everybody takes advantage of the fact that you will not tested on some subject to not study them. An other problem is the CFI rating, the INVA is a joke, the Fundamnetal of Instructing are not taught properly.

there is the need for CRM and ADM training even at the primary level.

Junker-13

18th Nov 2010, 17:15

What I don`t get is how easy is to get a rating, at most flight schools the Ck Airman is either a former student or a friend of the clube. It also amazes me how you can become a ck airman without having any experience.

That’s the main problem.

varigflier

18th Nov 2010, 17:17

My thoughts exactly. It's a joke. No wonder most captains feel they are God's gift to aviation. And these same people wouldn't even pass the instrument checkride in the US or Europe.

Junker-13

18th Nov 2010, 19:29

I did my Glider and Private Pilot in the south 20 years ago. I don't think it was that bad back then. I think I did get a good training.

The DAC “Private Pilot” syllabus did lack some things compare with the FAA syllabus. No night flying. No 3 T.O. & Land at controlled airport. No hood/instrument training. No familiarization with VOR/NDB/ILS in the airplane.

The FAA written test was much easier to pass. Twenty years ago it was not easy to get a Private Pilot license in Brazil. The DAC written test had a very high failure rate back then. We did not have a "bank of questions" to memorize for the test.

Junker

flyingswiss

18th Nov 2010, 20:06

Well I think even right now things are a lot better in RS then in the rest of Brazil.

@Junker did you flew for Rio Sul?

Well most FAA rides are easy if you get proper training, this is what the FAA is all about, quality standardized training, no instructor will sign you up if you don`t meet the PTS standards, if you meet them it will be really hard to fail a ck ride.

The training in the US is safety focused, while in Brazil is all about stick and rudder and how nice you can land the plane, all starts with the attitude of most pilots, you can go to any Aeroclube and their students will tell you about formation flights they did or how low they flew on top of a road, TOP GUN mindset (just look at most accident reports down here, most of them are CFIT!!)....most maneuvers are not practiced because they just don`t see the benefits behind them, I know most are boring but on the long run the transfer of knowledge will make you a safer pilot. I don`t care if one of my students makes a smooth landing when then he does not put wind correction in the ailerons on the roll, it`s all this little things that add up and make the training being poor.

How do ANAC and the Aeroclubes keep the Sky safe? by putting limitations on IFR operations, night flights and practice of emergencies...what they don`t get is this makes pilots even less safe, because they won`t develop skills that will grow their ADM.

Junker-13

18th Nov 2010, 20:50

@Junker did you flew for Rio Sul?

No, I did not fly for Rio Sul.
I left Brazil after I received my private.

students will tell you about formation flights they did or how low they flew on top of a road, TOP GUN mindset.

That's bad.

all starts with the attitude of most pilots

You’re right, good attitude is everything.

CFM-56NG

20th Nov 2010, 14:13

I DO AGREE WITH THAT HOWEVER HERE IS NOT THE ONLY PLACE WERE
THEY "STUDENTS/CFI" DO SOME CRAZY STUFF ........
I PERSONALLY DONT SEE A REAL USE OF P56 IN FLIGHT INSTRUCTION OTHER THAN WOOD FOR FIRE........ SOMEBODY GOT IT RIGHT UP THERE....
ITS NOT HOW SMOOTH YOU LAND BUT HOW TECHNICAL IS YOUR LANDING.... IF YOU WANT TO GET GOOD "STICK AND RUDDER" FLIGHT HELO'S....... THEY ARE INCREDIBLE SENSITIVE...... :ok::ok:
safety is a culture were you have to teach from scratch to the new pilots but the problem is how are you going to teach a newbie how to fly safe if the insctructor is a dumb ass in most cases?????? somehow we have to "break the circle " for the good of safety and better learning in the brazilian flight schools....
yes ej has the cirrus and de c172 g1000 for training ...... ive been there i i liked the place however the price is a shot in you balls !! for the same you can train anywhere else in the globe !!!!!!!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

flyingswiss

21st Nov 2010, 23:42

Flying a P56 will actually make you a better pilot, most pilots that have only flown a PA28 or a 172 probably don't even know what coordinated flight means, peoples with P56 or glider background know it petty well. It won't make a huge difference on a daily base, but as a flight Instructor I can tell you that learning on a tailwheel plane is good for other future tasks, like flying a multi with a failed engine, probably 90% of the 152-172 trained only will have an hard time learning how to keep coordination during VMC, while for a tailwheel pilot it will be more natural. other good transfer of knowledge is precision during landings, most tailwheel landings are done engine idle so you will develop a better sense for change in glide, this will be really helpful when you start flying heavier planes. The downside of training on a P56 is that you won't develop other skills and you will be really limited in learning navigation techniques (most pilots in Brazil learn how to use a VOR when they start IFR). The best compromise is do have side programs, like an UTR or something where you can develop your stick skills.

I agree on the instructors most i flew with, showed up late and did not cared too much about the flight.

Unfortunately the Macho culture and the lack of Crew Coordination is deep in the Brazilian aviation culture, just look at the fact that even in civil life Captains are called Comandante. This guy I contacted for regulation classes made it a big deal to be called comandante, when I go to get classes he shows up in a Barcelona soccer jersey, shorts and flip flops,....professionalism????????

varigflier

22nd Nov 2010, 02:42

Flyingswiss brings up a good point. Captains want and expect others to call them "comandante" and then their name. It's like they were born with the title. I have seen many times these so called comandantes treat F/Os or F/As bad because they didn't say comandante first. It's so pathetic. They expect this even when outside of aviation.

alemaobaiano

22nd Nov 2010, 07:54

They expect this even when outside of aviation.

So very true, and in many respects so very sad.

TTFN

TOFFAIR

25th Nov 2010, 20:54

I think some of the arguments you re bringing might be applicable seeing aviation as whole, not specifically to comercial aviation. I had a friend, Captain and instructor from Web jumpsitting the other day and he told me about the hard time he had trying to give instruction to a guy with 3000+ hours who flew Crop-dusters (tailwheel), not in terms of adapting to IFR, airline management but wasnt able to do a reasonable approach and landing (Webs destination have the best infrastructure as you dont do inicial trainning at SDU).
I think what you still dont have in Brazil, unlike other places I know, is a training specifically tailored to a future airline pilot!

flyingswiss

26th Nov 2010, 09:59

Well that makes sense, if you do your IFR training and then you work as a crop duster pilot, you won't see any instrument condition at all, you get rusty and even forget things...when I was instructing I went one year without flying IMC in a real plane, just FTD, when I went back to it I was probably not that good at it, it took me several hours to get back where I was before.

What you are saying about airline pilot oriented training will be needed here. just look at Europe, pilots get hired with really low time so there was the need to set up a specific way of teaching so that they could adapt to the MC environment easier. All the European Airline programs for their Cadets and Professional Pilot programs are based on flying crew, they have even adapted ck lists to look like an airliner flow, in some places the instructor even flies in the back at the last training stages.

Between 2006-2008 when US regional carriers started hiring 250TT pilots, they would send the new hired back to flight school, even pilots with 800-1000 would have to do the same (I saw a guy with 3500TT having to do this, probably he flew SE before). At flight school they would start an intense crew oriented FTD, flight training (on a light twin, flying profiles like the airlines do...) and simulator orientation (my school had an ERJ 145 for that)...

I think this would be a valid option for Brazil, if the industry keep growing there will be more and more low timers stepping into jet airliners....but will be the airlines willing to pay for it?

varigflier

26th Nov 2010, 12:05

It doesn't matter what type of training students do. As long as it's done in Brasil, things won't change. Students fly 20-30% of their logged hours. I had one guy came up to me and he was taking his commercial checkride with a little over 1000 hours logged. Later he said he only flew about 85 hours. So these students then get their first job flying a King Air or a Seneca as an F/O(what a joke, F/O on a Seneca) and the vicious cycle starts. The top gun captain won't allow the F/O to fly so he'll just talk on the radio. Then he goes to an airline and he'll fly with more top gun captains who won't let him fly and the company has lots of restrictions on F/Os flying. He will only get to fly once he upgrades to captain and by then he won't have enough experience and it shows on a daily basis during the flight. They don't feel confortable flying with hundreds of people in adverse weather, landing on short runways even when it's dry etc. By the time you occupy the left seat of an airliner, flying is the last thing you should worry about.