Posted on the Wannabe Forum

[cxorcist]

Why I knocked back Cathay... :D:D:D Finally one of them gets it.

"Over the last few weeks I have been harrassed by my mates as to why I turned my back on working for what is suspposed to be one of the worlds best airlines, so thought I would share my experience to anybody interested so that perhaps any other starry-eyed low-time pilots such as myself can avoid the Cathay trap.

Was I stupid? arrogant? drunk? did I fail?? No on all counts and let me set the record straight as to why.

After a series of interviews, medicals etc and all that good stuff, I was given the nod to join the Cathay cadet program. This involves spending over a year in Adelaide at a private flying college sponsored by Cathay, after which I would have a commerical license signed off for Hong Kong, and would then go straight into the (back)seat of a heavy jet. Sounds too good to be true right?, well wait theres more.

Thankfully I have a few friends in Cathay, both First Officers and very senior Captains (ex management in fact), all level headed blokes with no axe to grind, and the overriding impression I received from them, and from a few other experienced guys in other airlines (Emirates, ANA, VA), whom I spoke in the lead up to this decision was basically this: dont do it, but if you do, make sure you have a very good sense of humor.

Cathay fly to some great destinations, but as it was pointed out, I would have zero chance of enjoying them, ever, because the time spent at destination is less than 24 hours, usually 18 hours, and apparently after a flight, you have to sleep straight away because you usually arrive after not having slept all night, and then you have to get presleep for the following nights flight. All the crew go straight to bed (called "slam-clickers"!), and even if you wanted to have a drink with one of the flight attendants (which as a single guy I always thought was part of the job description in any airline!), well the cabin crew will just stay in their rooms because they have to save their overnight allowances to compensate for their low salary. And besides apparently, most of them are quite difficult to communicate with.
So essentially you turn up to work 70 minutes before a flight, then go straight to the aircraft where after takeoff you usually go to sleep for the first half of the flight, and "work" for the second half of the flight.
Work basically involves checking off flight times on a fight plan, doing fuel checks, following the route on maps, and talking to ATC. This is not hands on flying, but "flight management".
As a second officer, you arent allowed to takeoff or land. So basically you are locked in the flight deck or the bunk, for 12-16hours, and then you spend an hour on a bus to a 3 star hotel in the middle of nowhere, where you sleep and cant go out because the hotel is usually in an industrial or outskirts area, and then you do it all in reverse again back to Hong Kong.

It will then take you a few days to get over your jet lag, which apparently is not very good for your long term health. And speaking of health, if the job doesnt kill you then the pollution will apparently. The government even has official "stay indoors" days! because it can get quite thick.

Rinse, repeat, for four years, the average time spent as a second officer.
And just in case you were thinking of leaving Cathay to fly elsewhere, the rating Cathay give is a "P2X" which is not a full conversion and is Hong Kong specific, so other airlines will not accept your Airbus or Boeing qualifications.

Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.

And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.

And then every year Cathay will introduce a new route or destination where they will make guys fly really hard, wait until the regulator tells them to use more pilots on the route or rest more, which they will do for a short time, but then they will go back to the previous roster to see how long they can try it on for. Which sounded to me like some backyard GA outfits in Oz you read about.

So surely all this sounds a little backward as far as employee relations go I asked them? "Exactly" was the response, which is why Cathay is always in court. They recently hired first officers directly over second officers who were ready for upgrade, which in my book sounds a bit dissapointing. The second officers actually took the comany to court over it. And the cabin crew are always on the brink of striking too.

Oh and if you complain? Well they mark your comments in your file, then basically tell you to leave and work elsewhere.. Hmmm.

So what about the cool aircraft you guys fly? Well they say that after a few years it doesnt really matter if its a 380 or a 180, the flying becomes just a job, which I guess I can understand.

So whats it really like being a 2nd officer in Cathay? I enthusiastically asked my potentially fellow aviation brethren, looking for some kind of bone here..well not good news here either Im afraid. The unofficial line is that you are treated with a subtle mix of indifference and resentment, and if you join as a cadet you are basically considered as incompetent also, and a poor substitute for the higher paid Captain who would otherwise be sitting there were it not for managements constant drive to keep cutting costs. Plenty of jokes about second officers being known as "sandwich eaters", because thats all they do. Sounds pretty depressing to me. They make you do a simulator every 2 months (other pilots only do simulator exercises every 6 months).
And eventually, and I do mean eventually, in around 15 years, when you come up for command, there is a very large failure rate amongst cadets. Basically this is they say because the cadets dont have any real aviation experience to fall back on. And once you fail a command upgrade twice, then they either sack you or keep you as a first officer for ever. This deal keeps on getting worse by the minute!

Finally, the M question. Money.
So great, now Im back in Hong Kong and its time to live it up right? After all Ive made it to the top and can kick back a little in my huge pad and German car? Hong Kong with its low tax and company subsidised housing sounds like a pretty sweet deal? Well err not quite.
I was in for a shock - take home buying power for a First Officer is below Jetstar! Hard to believe but true. Food, gas, and most importantly beer, and well even more importantly a place to live, cost an absolute fortune. With a newly minted salary, I did some checking because I didnt believe what the guys were saying, and even if I spend two thirds of my take-home dollars, I would still be living in a classic highrise smaller than the size of my garage, complete with washing hanging out the windows (plenty of property websites to check for yourself). And thats just to rent, because to own a house up there now is apaprently impossible because of the rising prices.
Previously the pilots received a housing subsidy, but now management has introduced a "C" scale package which is just basic salary (there were A and B scale packages before, each better than the last).
And if you try and send money home back to Australia, what you can buy with your salary is pretty minimal. It would take me 20 years to save for a small house in Doncaster, a fairly average Aussie suburb, which is where my family is.
And dont fall into the trap that the comany will keep wages to match inflation as they wont.

So just to reconvince myself that this is the best decision I never made, just let me recap:

salary - less than any Australian airline..crap
accommodation - living in an apartment with refugee camp dimensions?..crap
lifestyle - not being able to go jogging because of the pollution, and having any family exposed to that kind of smog?..crap
fellow pilots - sorry boys, nothing personal but not exactly a cosy family
cabin crew - nothing on a Virgin girl! (call me shallow)
career prospects - this airline seems to always slot in other pilots ahead of others on the list..the rating then is crap
flying - playing seat warmer for 4 years..crap
how hard I have to work...I believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work, but from what I hear its like slave labour.
Bottom line..40 years of that? Tell them theyre dreaming!

Hope this little synopsis doesnt appear too negative, after all I did a lot of research and tried to be objective the whole way through, after all I even committed to the entire interview process, but frankly it just plainly doesnt stack up, that to leave Australia to work for those kind of people would mean that there would have to be something wromg with me.

I encourage anybody else out there considering Cathay to really do their homework too and make up their own mind - dont take it from me.But I would be suprised if you come to any other conclusion. I was suprised at how appealing the lcoal creer options really are, and that the grass was not greener. It seems that the good old days at Cathay are exactly that.

Also BTW the decision to say no to Cathay was perhaps a little easier than just saying no, as I was not the only one, as a few applicants I have kept in touch with have done the same - apologies if I sounded like the first!.

I personally think its better to get some solid command and multi hours before I go for an airline, if only for the self reassurance of having some experience for my later command days. So right now Im taking a solid GA path instead with some multi turboprop hours on the horizon, and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar, or one of the nearby airlines (Brunei etc).

But have still got the name on the file for Qantas as a backup just in casehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif"

[Capt Toss Parker]

Good for you young fella you're obviously a wise young lad and I applaud your decision.

There's a reason they call it a "cockpit" because it's a place where guys like me hang out .... sucking the life and soul out of the airline, ruining morale and treating their fellow aviators like second class citizens to feed their ego.

[treboryelk]

Possibly one of the best thought out and presented posts on FH for a long time. So the good guys stop coming, what are we left with.

[crwjerk]

We'll be left with those who will be sick of hearing ..." WE TOLD YOU SO...!"

[pasa001]

Very well written and it shows that you obviously have done your homework , good for you mate! Best of luck with your career choice I think you have made a very smart and well informed choice.

[boxjockey]

Beautiful post! Bravo! I love to see someone REALLY think out a decision before going through with it! I can only hope that other hopefuls will read your post for what it is, and open their own eyes. I am happy at CX, but if I had to join on what is being offered now, there is no way I would consider coming here. Good on you, you have made a wise decision!

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[kulchashock]

Shallow - maybe.

Spot on - definitely!!

Good luck for the future...

[Captain Dart]

A very sad indictment on what, two decades ago, was a world-beating airline; world beating in new routes, passenger service and cockpit crew morale.

Now, when (or if) you do make captain, management is still appalling, the hotels are still 3-star, still in crappy areas (but convenient to Chinatown) and the overnight patterns just get worse and worse.

On a personal note, there is one good side: luckily for my marriage, the cabin crew are 'Olympic torches'; they travel the world and never go out!

[Sqwak7700]

Your decision is wise. I've recently done a fleet forum in which we were told that we are not ruling out hiring direct entry FOs and CAs if crewing becomes more of a problem.

So get your time and then apply as direct entry. You will receive housing and not have to spend a day as SO. :ok:

[Humber10]

well written, but I would like to correct you on one thing. we stay in 1 star hotels, not 3 star as you have mentioned :{

[sorvad]

CXORCIST...whilst I do agree with a lot of what you say, and you certainly say it very eloquently, I have to say that the replies reflect the weight of negativity that prevails on this forum. The proportion of this on fragrant harbour I have to tell you isn't the same proportion that prevails at CX in general.

I admire your decision to pursue other paths to an airline job many of which will provide you with a a far better grounding than the CX cadet route, but some misinformation has led you to a number of your mis-givings about the job at CX....I'll try to address them in turn

SALARY........true ..without the housing, the pay is crap.....FOR AN AIRLINE PILOTS JOB, but how much worse would be the equivalent GA salary be with a freshly issued CPL.

ACCOMMODATION....I agree..you wont be able to get too much for the 3 or 4 years you are an S/O.... Down route though, the quality of accommodation is variable....tops that I know are the Shangrila Dubai and the Hyatt in Frankfurt.....bottom the Hilton Milan and the Park in london....but they're certainly not 1, or even 3 star...night stops are generally comfortable and fun and not the slumber ridden nightmare you describe and fatigue is always going to be part of any long haul airline pilots job

LIFESTYLE...... one of the major plus points about being an S/O...most of the guys I fly with whilst keen to upgrade and do a bit of regional flying are very reluctant to give up their 15-19 days off a month and all the swanning around Asia that allows....Its a similar lifestyle as a based relief F/O although changing a bit now, but make no mistake ..life as an S/O is cushy

FELLOW PILOTS.....apart from a lot of the militant whingers you'll find on this forum, they're as good and bad as you'll find in any other Airline

CABIN CREW...Agree..nothing on a virgin girl...non existent social contact on night stops

CAREER PROSPECTS....in a word slow!...but no lower than any other national Airline...and certainly not the potential 5+ years as an S/O that I hear Qantas can be
...you will be upgraded though....and there are 747-400 passenger Captains now who joined CX 10 years ago

FLYING.....not good as an S/O, Relief..1 or 2 landings a month.....same or a bit less as a senior bloke at BA...but doing long haul only what can you expect. But if you upgrade onto the 777 as an F/O based in HK then you'll get a good balance of short haul and long haul

HOW HARD I HAVE TO WORK....as an S/O.... not very, as a based F/O....not very, as a HK based 330 F/O or Capt...very!

BOTTOM LINE...dont listen to everything everyone tells you...there are a lot of problems at Cathay, but maybe not as many as some would have you believe..I was warned away from joining by some at my last company who hadn't the first clue about anything...they were just regurgitating what they'd heard from others ...It sounds like you've done some research but heard a very biased view of things ,which is mostly what you'll get from this forum.

I wish you all the best and am sure that eventually you will arrive in the job you are looking for

[I'mbatman]

Wow, I am a relatively positive person, but even I can't help but mention that your post is 100% spot-on accurate for what the current and future pilots will be seeing in the Fragrant Harbor International Airline.

[cxlinedriver]

100% accurate assessment of current CX conditions.

One thing to consider however for zero time pilots - take the cadetship, get the CPL & Frozen ATPL, get the P2X and do some trips on CX, BUT find another job and tell CX to stick it.

Under HKG law an employee can't be bonded (regardless of what CX might try and tell you).

So, take the Aussi training and then find yourself a job working for a good airline.

[flyingkiwi]

I disagree, about most of the points, but i really hope in ten years when you are struggling still to earn even a basic living in GA beacue the aviation industry has slowed completely trapping you in a Navajo doing night freight that you dont regret this decision.

I dont know many second offecers complaining about there job and the lifestyle it gives them.

Yes the housing part of the deal sucks but in 10 years time you will be so far better of than doing the GA bit.

[Loiter1]

I agree with cxlinedriver. The International Cadet program has its place if you are willing to move around a bit. The free training and experience is almost unparalleled in the industry. If you are a young guy, take the training and experience and go where you will be payed what you are worth. Treat it like a 6 or 7 year contract.

[Rook]

Hey flying kiwi, maybe if you asked an SO what they thought you would know. A good chunk I know are contemplating a move.

[grind king]

Airlines are like girlfriends. You'll always complain about them but you need to find one that work best for you.

CX is not a perfect job but is sure beats flying fish in an overloaded C-206 in icing conditions. If you can put aside the bulls*^%t which will be at EVERY company, get yourself a shiny big jet endorsement with a little time on type, you'll be sitting sweet for any airline job in the future. Believe it or not but CX on a resume is actually not a bad thing when searching for work.

You obviously did your home work but one thing to keep in mind. Their problems are not always your problems so keep an open mind and make your own decisions based on your experiences/risk comfort not solely based on someone else.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

[boxjockey]

Let me first say that I am very happy with my job here at CX, there is nowhere I would go from here. Now, those of you who are posting positive points, good on you, but I think you fail to grasp the gravity of trying to live in Hong Kong on NO HOUSING ALLOWANCE!! How far do you really think the starting SO salary will go without housing assistance? Come on guys, be honest!! Now, as some other have said, if you have 0 experience or licensing, then give it a go. At least you can get your training paid for, and see how things are going when you complete. For the pilots who are already licensed and experienced, it just doesn't make any sense. You will be an SO for at least 3.5 years, the numbers support this. The rating you receive is worthless, and so is the time you log. On SO salary with no housing, you will live like a pauper, this is not an exaggeration. I just don't understand why someone with previous experience would even consider coming here under the new terms. You could find a job in your home country nearly anywhere in the world, and your total quality of life would be better than coming to Hong Kong. I guess I just don't get it.....

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[AnAmusedReader]

Sorry CXD but you are wrong. I've heard this so many time so I checked it out. An employee in HK can bond. In fact, I heard from a recently joined cadet that he has signed a bond agreement.

[BuzzBox]

I don't disagree with the sentiments expressed in the original post, however, perhaps we should bear in mind the following:

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent"

[Cedar Tree]

My lifestyle and quality of living was much higher when I was 19 years old (vs in HK on housing package) flying small GA aircraft in northern Canada. 3 bedroom stylish condo which I owned, good car, fridge was full of normal food, room to breath, air was fresh...

ANYONE considering this opportunity should take a very serious look at quality of living and costs in Hong Kong. They might just drop aviation all together and apply to return to university. Think LONG term people! Life is short.

Given the option, it makes no financial sense to move to HK from a western standard of living for $26k, it'll be starvation in every way.

Good luck to this business, looks like the jigs are hitting bottom. At least in GA it takes actual flying skills to succeed, can't get away with automation dependence that is so evident today in commercial airlines.

We may see a reversal of the tide. Insurance companies in Canada have set minimum experience levels (which are in excess of 5000 hour pic in some cases) for clients of GA aircraft on certain contracts. But here at one of the world's leading airlines, we can employ pilots with ZERO experience. These pilots CAN sit at the controls of these 400+ passenger jets ALONE while the real pilot is in the toilet or galley chatting up the crew. Does the CAD really exist? I find it very difficult to comprehend why the authorities allow so much inexperience to enter at this level of aviation? The money the company is saving is almost a non-factor in this very capital-intensive, low yielding game.

Point is, those jobs that actually require skills and real experience are seeing an improvement in wages, along with index increases. On top of that, a lot of these jobs are quite enjoyable. These cadets miss the big picture if they give that up, most of us got into flying to really FLY, an S/O position at CX doesn't offer that.

[Pinayfokker]

Hear hear.
A well researched and thought out decision from one so young. Well done young fella you're spot on. Good luck with your future endeavours.

[crewsunite]

That's only for true locals
Come as a Cadet & not only will you be shafted by CX and not get housing, you'll get done by the Gov aswell.
Since you will be paying taxes which will go towards the real locals (some of them earning more than you doing a lessor job than you) for them to get subsidies on housing which you will not be able to receive as you are a foreigner.

(Not too mention double taxation which will becoming soon, IE paying taxes here & in your home country, leaving you with even less)

You can never Win!

My advice remain a expat, get another flying job. Then come as a D S/O or D F/O is you have too.

The pilots here are about to be a "work to rule" at CX.
Guess what CX will not budge! Many will get more upset and leave or get fired. This at a time when capacity is about to improve greatly here and all over the world.

CX will start hiring again in a big way! Sit on you hands & see.
But don't become a CADET!

CX will continue to lie to you & me, and not give much improved conditions, that you may or may not be able to live with. But certainly coming here with no housing will be major disaster!

Don't think you can up and away. Your time here counts as nothing elsewhere. No body does things like CX i.e. P2X is worthless.
(and is rapidly getting worse and the training value in your modules is getting cut all the time to save money)

You may as well set up Flight Sim 2010 and stay with Mom & Dad for 5 yrs then apply for a Job elsewhere. (Ya right! well same same)

Don't forget Airlines are Seniority based. You waste 5+ yrs here, you'll be lucky to start at the bottom elsewhere.

My real advice is stay well clear of being a pilot altogether!

Let me ask you one question:

Why do guys like I bother to right this post?
1) As I'm wanting to warn you about what really goes on here etc ?
or
2) To scare you away thus hopefully limiting the supply of pilots and hopefully giving us some bargaining power to increase our benefits etc.
(Do u see lawyer or banker whom pocket $mil lobbying like this- NO!)

Say what you want.

The reason is BOTH! Because I and others & their families are desperately concerned about the future, but we are stuck in this seniority system and find it hard to move on and start elsewhere.

Starting at the bottom is not an option. It would be better off if we started totally new careers, which also takes time effort & family support.

All of which are very difficult to do when our skills have no bearing in the real world.

We are quickly turning into a miserable & depressed bunch of people becoming more & more under the thumb of powerful bankers & accountants. We have no power over our future, yet are in charge of 300+ peoples lives.

This is very hard to swallow!

Do you really want to be apart of this?

My advice is bugger off go to uni & became a banker or a accountant or a lawyer. And be my boss sooner than you become an F/O.

[crewsunite]

Either way ur dream is screwed!
GA or Airlines it does not matter, being a pilot is a dull underpaid job for a bright person full of potential in many other areas.

If you have some brains stay well clear of this profession all together!
I meant that!

Bottom line is if you are really passionate about flying, work hard at uni don't mess about. Get a good qualification and a feel for your strengths. Go and build a solid career one that you can amend where you see fit.

In your spare time do a Paragliding course that is real flying, later on when u have enough money buy a microlight or a home built or a light Cessna.

Then you set, and have full control on your life and get to fly when the weather is nice with whom ever you want on your J/S.

Think out the box guys! The accountants are destroying this career and milking it dry. It is very hard to change course once you committed to this career.

So plan your life correctly 1st time! Think loooonnng term..

But in the near future we piloys may be in for slight improvement, but it want last long since the next doom & gloom won't be far off. Ready for the bankers to coin it again & tighten the noose once again.

Can't beat them join them! But stay away if you can.

[crewsunite]

Paragliding & flying light aircraft is far more fun on ave to fly than a big shinny jet. (Sure Jets are one hell of a thrill to land & take one off nicely but that is where it ends, and even then after some time that too becomes a bit like clock work. )

Flying with the wind in your face and ever changing elements is something that cannot be described unless you try it.

Anyway modern airline flying is so monitored now & SOP are followed to the T. That there is little passion in my vanes while at the controls.

Sadly this approach is very necessary, as many a pilot has not even got the confidence to do a visual approach.

Now who's fault is that? The accountants again, they sucked the blood out of extra training & Sim rides due to costs?

How many V1 Cuts do you do today compared to 10+ years ago in the Sim?

Anyway I'm not in a mood to argue these points anymore.

Only that it not such a passion anymore, sure I still love flying.
But it is certainly is not what it seems when you start out.

If I had to go repeat my life, I would have chosen a different path to aviate and have better control over my life.

Think of those furlough pilots in the US whose lives are still effected by 9/11 almost 10years latter. On the other hand how many bankers do you know how are out of a job since the recent financial crisis. Many are raking in millions as I type!

ITS SICK! :ugh: Enough said, make your own bed Guys but be warned.
Stay in control of your lives at all costs (Develop real skills that can be used in every day life) this world in going to become more & more bumpy once this current good phase has passed.

[Bye Bye Baby]

Big night out on the sauce hey crewsunite?

[cxlinedriver]

CX do get Cadets to sign a Bonding document, but it is NOT legally binding - they want to Cadet to think it is. One can not contract out of the Basic Law.

It could also be argued that one is signing the 'bonding' agreement under duress - sign or no job and without having received independent legal advice.

[dRAGON hEAD]

Nicely put and factual. However, clearly the essay is written by an insider and not by a wannabe as implied. Someone with lots of time on hand. The wannabe should be thankful for the truth and effort.

[MilPilot]

GA and Cadet schemes are not the only way to get into flying !!!!

Join the military - I guarantee the flying part will be a lot more fun than the previous two put together. You can always join the Airlines when you are 40. By then they will probably have raised the retirement age to 70, so you will still have a good 30 years to sit and observe the automated flight.

On top of that you will actually know how you will react under real pressure (And No, you will never be able to create that feeling in a SIM)

I have absolutely loved every day I went to work in the Air Force.

[Capt Toss Parker]

I have always maintained that the military produces the best pilots.

Years of exceptional training ingrain a pilot with valuable tools such as ... awareness, tenacity, big picture thinking, handling skills, management techniques and the ability to pick up any woman that walks into a room .... especially your first officers wife when he falls asleep after dinner.

If you want to be a success story in aviation the military is one of the most highly regarded avenues you could take.

Fast cars, Fender Guitars and copy watches from Bangkok Bars the world is your oyster!

[FR8R H8R]

My meager salary says this was not posted by a wannabe. Must be someone on the inside.

Still, a lovely effort though.

[MilPilot]

there is a chance that one day some baddie might be doing their best to increase the number of parts your soft warm little body is made up of and this can turn quite a lot of folk off the job.

You are totally missing the point. Half the fun is that you get to do exactly that to the bad guys :p

[betpump5]

I am willing to bet my Housing allowance and 5 years' salary that the post was NOT written by Wannabe.

The sad thing is that one of the naysayers here spent probably an hour writting that post and for what?

Pathetic

[anothernewbie]

Great betpump5! Will IM you my bank account details.

BTW, looking at your previous posts, I am willing to bet you the price of a Baron endorsement that you work in Cathay management! Shall we go double or nothing? :O
When management of an airline cruise the posts of PPrune to shoot down the rumours then I know that definately made the right decision.

Best of luck.

[Black Cloud]

Ahhhhhh! A man after my own heart. Now how do I repair these tears in my anus from all these years of abuse??

[missingblade]

awareness, tenacity, big picture thinking, handling skills, management techniques and the ability to pick up any woman that walks into a room .... especially your first officers wife

Cpt Toss - as always spot on - however may I suggest you correct the above to the more correct ' pick up your Second Officers wife' seeing that most FO's (and by definition their wives) are now so old - due lack of upgrades - that you prob won't be interested in them anymore.

[VforVENDETTA]

Yeah, do that to the wrong motherf'er and go for an eternal swim in the marina. :ok:

[Mopar]

If the Army is so good why are you inquiring about Jetstar?????:D

[MilPilot]

Mopar - While I don't know ITWs reasons I am sure they are probably similar to my reasons for wanting to join CX.

Diversity - I spent half my professional career in the Air Force and would now like to do something different. Doing 40+ years in the Air Force or in the Airlines simply does not appeal to me.

[Varg Vikernes]

I think I get the point mopar is trying to make. There are a number of us who are xmil but we don't feel the need to constantly crap on about it through anonymous Internet forums....

[MilPilot]

Personally I "crap on about it" because I have had an awesome time in the military and wouldn't want a young guy getting into flying, not consider that option also. Of course it is not for everybody, but I am sure it beats making sandwiches :}

[capt_einz11]

milpilot now you are going too far! you've mixed up two important things!
It's making the bunks and eating the sandwiches, not making the sandwiches...

On a more serious note.. what are you doing now? still trying to be a DEFO in CX?

[MilPilot]

On a more serious note.. what are you doing now? still trying to be a DEFO in CX?
Swimming - if there is still a pool :o) Everybody will have to reinterview anyway if they ever decide to hire again, so it doesn't really matter if there is a pool or not.

I can afford to wait - Just mean I will be making twice the money a little bit longer ;)

Then again - Who knows what kind of terms they will come up with if they ever hire DEFO again.

[crwjerk]

If you're making twice the money now, you should really seek Psychological help before coming here.

[MilPilot]

Money has hardly ever been my main motivation for doing stuff, but yes you are probably right :E

[Fly747]

Please don't come here, it is going to be a nightmare having to listen to you telling everyone every sector about how much you used to earn. You will then go on and on about how unfair it is that you don't get housing or education.

[MilPilot]

Who is moaning? I was looking at the positives in not getting hired as DEFO right now :confused: Besides I don't do sectors :}

[Fly747]

Don't argue or answer back either, you really are not going to like it here!

[Duff]

I have asked this question on another thread but I'll repeat it here.

There has been talk of a housing allowance of some type being offered to cadets. Has there been any progress on this front?

[Harbour Dweller]

Duff,

Short answer is NO.

There is NO Housing for cadets & there is very little chance of this changing in the future.

Do not fall for any promises made by CX unless you have it in writing prior to starting.

Currently, DEFO's are resigning from CX as they have finally become aware that the promises made during recruitment will never happen.

Don't learn the hard way.

[moosp]

As 400 J points out, the Second Officer remuneration is totally inadequate as an expatriate package in Hong Kong.

It was never designed to be so. The salary and benefits were designed for local Chinese pilots who had been taken on as cadets, trained at initially Prestwick and then Adelaide, and integrated into the company. CX paid the training, so the salary and benefits were and are low.

Cadets were chosen for a variety of parameters, but single and childless was an unwritten rule of application. It was assumed that they would live at home with their parents. Such is industrial arrogance.

So to arrive with three children and a wife as a second officer is bound to be difficult. Even a partner is a problem as the immigration and labour laws preclude most unions. (Pprune passim.)

I note that a pilot has written to this thread asking about the job with 200 hours. That was the level of experience that the second officer remuneration scheme was designed for. If you have more experience, you are selling yourself short.

[Bye Bye Baby]

Cadets WILL NOT be offered any sort of housing untill it is proven that the current crop of icadets/adl instructors will not accept it ie leave so at a guess I would suggest at least another 12months but probably longer.
If CX is offering expats, local terms and people keep applying, why would they suddenly say they will double your wage.
Please don't accept an offer on the basis that you expect housing in the future, you are selling yourselves very short.

[Green T2]

Coming to HK without a housing allowance will be the worst aviation career move you ever make. DONT say you were not warned.

[badairsucker]

To the guys who are saying that there will be No house assistance....Think again.

Massive lack of numbers for the cadet courses so there will be a move to increase the package. There will be approx 10K per month for S/O increasing with promotion to JF/O...F/O etc.

[hongkongfooey]

Coming to HK without a housing allowance will be the worst aviation career move you ever make. DONT say you were not warned

Utter crap !

Coming to HKG period, will be the worst move you'll ever make ;)

[Coffee Mug]

re: quote: For Kindergarten Cathay pay just 50% of the school fees only! Most schools add admin fees, school dinner fees which is around $2-4K a term. Do Cathay pay those? haha NO!

We have 3 kids and this is a breakdown of what we pay...



Appreciate your info. I am in a similar situation. Had been considering interviewing for the current Second Officer position, but understand now that it is actually a cadet entry type position.

Could you also give me an idea what you are paying for a mortgage? I have no idea what it actually costs to live in HKG.

I am currently on par with a US regional captain, making US$80,000 per year with 15 days off per month and living comfortably. But I have the itch to get international and heavy experience.

If all of you guys do not recommend CX, then where should I go?

I haven't found anything better!

Thanks for all of the info you guys have put on this website. May have prevented me from making a huge mistake!

[Mooseflyer]

If you're "currently on par with a US regional captain", it may be assumed that......you're a US regional captain. As such, it will not be breaking news to you that the US age 60-65 retirement setback will have run its course in December of this year. Consequently FedEx, SW, Delta, etc will have to hire sooner than later to varying degrees. As you may or may not know, the retirement age at CX was raised from 55-65 something like 4 years ago?? Upgrade times have gotten very long. Personally, I see no reason that a regional captain would move to HK to take a job as an SO. JMO.

[Coffee Mug]

Fair enough, but would someone with kids please answer my specific question regarding cost of living?

Are you limited to living in HKG or can you catch a train from the airport and live in the suburbs as a SO?

What could I use for a rough number to plan things financhially? ie: in the US a regional captain makes about $80,000US. I pay $1,000/month for a mortgage, $500/month for groceries, and $0 for schooling our children. If a SO at CX makes around $330,000HKD what percentage of that goes to rent/mortgage, food, and schooling?

From 400 Jockey's quote I have the information I need for one of these questions:

So to review:

1. Can I expect to be have the option to live outside HKG? Do any CX pilots live in the "suburbs"?

2. What could I expect to pay for housing to fit 2 adults and 3 children/month?

3. What could I expect to pay for groceries for 2 adults and 3 children?

4. I understand from 400 Jockey that I can expect to pay around HK$10,000 for 3 kids schooling after the CX assistance. Thank You for that info!



I would really appreciate another parents response as opposed to career advice. Thank You gentlemen.

[iceman50]

Coffee Mug

Look at the numbers yourself, you are earning 80,000US, the figure you quoted for SO is about HALF of what you are earning now! From the figure you quoted that would be roughly 30,000HK / month

1. There is NO real living in the "burbs".
2. 20,000 if you are lucky with associated travel costs.
3. 8-10000, if you are careful.
4. Add in you education of 10,000 and you are at -10,000 / month.

Do not even think about it unless you are looking to break up your family!

Mortgage, if you can raise the 30% deposit, try your salary + + per month!:uhoh:

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Current SO's with family n kids have to be very careful and that's on B scale!!!

It's a none starter. You'll need everything going for you when you come to Hong Kong and living on the bread line is going to put ridiculous pressure on a young pilot with a family in tow. You've been warned. This town is very expensive. Please don't complain to me that you can't afford it. We did warn you......

Good luck!

[ETOPS240]

the figure you quoted for SO is about HALF of what you are earning now! From the figure you quoted that would be roughly 30,000HK / month

I'm not for one minute suggesting your advice doesn't stand, or that it isn't a terrible idea to bring a family of 5 to HK on an SO salary, but lets not forget that the SO package, while not as good as the B-scale, certainly took a step in the right direction.

Pay, with the raise and new allowance will make the basic pay a shade under US$80k, which after tax and equivalent retirement contributions makes for larger monetary amount.

I'm not for a moment suggesting that your lifestyles will be the same, they won't. I'd go so far as to say it would be nigh-on impossible to balance it. But, lets not make the package sound worse than it is. Like everywhere else, it is simple supply and demand.

Wait out for the likes of FedEx/UPS, sir. That would be my advice if you want to fly heavies around (at night:}). The SO programme is intended for folk with far lower experience levels - instructors and the like. Despite the naysayers, it does come with a good career bolted on to it. That said, you're in the ballpark for a Direct Entry FO position, which sadly doesn't seem to be on the cards for a little while. Although... Give it time.

Good Luck!

[jed_thrust]

Coffee Mug...

Put simply: you would be are halving your salary and doubling your costs.

Clear as mud?

PS There are no suburbs in HKG. Perhaps the nearest area with the style of living that you have in mind is south Lantau. I live in Sai kung so I cannot comment on the school situation there, but you can certainly catch a bus to and from work.

[tyson744]

Etops 240, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[ETOPS240]

Very substantial post.
Care to fill in the blanks, please?

Care to tell me what the new monthly pay with raise & allowance will be? Care to then tell me what the take home will be? The tax break of having a wife and 3 children? Then maybe we can compare that to the take-home in the US. That's also after retirement contributions, not mentioning the fact that at Cx your retirement pot is significantly greater than at any US regional.

Or was I wrong about telling our friend to stay put and wait it out in the US/wait for DEFO?

You tell me.

[lost&found]

ETOPS - you are not going to get the answer you are so desperate to see... HK is rated 3rd in the worlds most exspensive cities to live Top 10 Most Expensive Cities to Rent an Apartment in Asia ? PropGoLuxury - Property News (http://www.propgoluxury.com/EN/PropertyNews/Tokyo/1591-Top-10-Most-Expensive-Cities-Rent.html)

Take the advice of people that already live and work here... you have every resource available to you to research how this place works, you have countless numbers of people on this site warning you off - how stupid must you be to continue asking the same question!

[ETOPS240]

With all due respect, I think you missed the point of my post.

I'm not desperate to find anything. I've been here a while. I'm on old terms. Supply & demand dictated them. I'm intimately familiar with the heavy financial burden of living in HK. I'd be happy to share my experiences here, some wonderful, some less so.

I thought I was reasonably explicit that the lifestyle change on a given salary would be huge. I went on to explain that the SO path (cadet or otherwise) is a great opportunity for the low experienced, with a good solid career prospect ahead (at least compared to elsewhere), despite the naysayers who are a cockpit minority. I also, fairly clearly, said that our friend here (coffee mug) was not in the general experience demographic; rather better suited to the now absent DEFO programme.

What I was asking of Tyson 744, was to prove me wrong with regard to SO pay. With the new deal, SO pay is akin to a US regional captain at an average carrier. Does it buy you the same lifestyle? No, not even close. That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was just nullifying the notion of coffee mug taking a 50% pay cut. He wouldn't. His net income would be higher. It would also have a higher ceiling.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just being objective. HK is expensive, we have established that. I can give coffee mug my cost breakdown, too, if he likes (I have no kids, so it won't be too valid).

In short, coffee mug; similar pay, much higher cost of living. US$1000 won't get you more than 550sqft 45 minutes out.

Like I said, hold out for DEFO. SO is a great opportunity for some, but you'd be selling yourself short. If DEFO doesn't happen for a while, FedEx, UPS, etc will. SWA have already opened up the floodgates, too.

I wish you the best. Feel free to PM me for any more info.

[Coffee Mug]

Gentlemen,

I sincerely want to thank my comrades on the other side of the pond who made this decision so much easier.

To pay it forward, I will duplicate the answers I received in a simple format that is valid in March of 2011:

A brief comparison of a US pilot to a Hong Kong pilot:

If the average US regional airline pilot makes $80,000 US per year, then he makes $6,666/ month.

If he has a family and he lives in an average town then his expenses would be something like:

1. mortgage, $1,000 or 15% of gross income
2. groceries, $500 or 7.5% of gross income
3. school costs for children, $0 or 0% of gross income
4. IRS, state, and local taxes, $2,000 or 30%
5. Percent of monthly income left for other expenses: 55%

If that US regional airline pilot were then to get lucky and get a job with Cathay Pacific as a DEFO (which I understand isn’t really an option for the time being….) then let’s say he made the same amount as he did back in the states. According to the conversion rate in March of 2011 his new salary is HK $623,184 per year, or $51,932/month. I understand this isn't an exact figure on the A scale, B scale, or C scale (whatever those are), I'm just trying to give us Americans from a different culture a reference point....

Assuming the above is still true, here is how those same expenses break down now that he is now living in Hong Kong:

1. rent (owning not feasible) HK $25,000 or 48%
2. groceries HK $10,000 or 19%
3. school costs for children (after help from CX) HK $10,000 or 19%
4. HK and US taxes HK $10,386 or 20%
5. Percent of monthly income left for other expenses: -6%. (Just by meeting the basic necessities you are already in debt.)

I hope this summary helps other Americans out there understand why these blokes are so “down” on the current hiring scheme.


DEFO is the only option for me if I can stand a chance at keeping my financial and family health.

[Aviates01]

US Regional Average 80k per year? How do you figure that?

[Some How I'm Tired]

Good work coffee mug. Despite the lack of help from anyone, I'd say you pretty well hit the nail on the head.

There are more hidden expenses than you think. Just having 2 mobile phones in the family can really add up. Plus cable TV equivalent. Plus public transport. Plus a house of any decent standing is more like 40k per month. The list goes on!

One might say that your figures were quite conservative, and it would actually be worse off than your predictions!!

[Sqwak7700]

As far as cost of living, it is not hard for potential new-hires to estimate it themselves. Want to know cost of food? Take your supermarket shopping list for the week and get on the link below to compute. There are several expat markets like 360, Taste, or ParknShop or City Super.

Here is ParknShop, one of the cheaper ones with some expat brands:

PARKnSHOP.com (http://www1.parknshop.com/WebShop/Home.do)

Housing? Same thing, just click on the link below, I've already entered the parameters, but you can adjust yourself if you plan to pay out of pocket or if you want to buy. Funny thing (well, sad really, not funny at all) - on the rent slider, 10K is the lowest setting, you can't select any lower. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. When you click on the property, it will also bring up a map and you can see where it is located (you can compare to MTR routes for your commute)

Hong Kong Square Foot:

Property Search - Square Foot (http://www.squarefoot.com.hk/search/?type=rent&area=&district=&rent_min=0&rent_max=10000&size_min=&size_max=&bedroom=&floor_zone=&layout=&keyword=&x=32&y=8)

Finally, here is a link that ranks cities by cost for the top 50. The only US city is New York, all other cities are compared to it. So, if you are American, you know the cost of living in your city so you can compare it to NY. Then calculate that NYC is 27th on the list and HKG is 8th. This list takes all the variables into account like food and housing, especially for expatriates, so it is very appropriate for our purposes.

Try this site:

Global/Worldwide Cost of Living Survey Rankings 2010/2011, Cities, International, Europe, Asia, America, US, American, Americas, United States, Africa, Australia, USA, Asian, Canada, Expensive, Cheap, : Finfacts Ireland (http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm)

So you can't complain that you did not know what you were getting yourself into. Here is all the information you need except education, but I think you get the point and will be able to judge education costs on your own. Just look for international schools and then e-mail them for costs if it is not on their websites.

And ETOPS240, your only positive for accepting a career in CPA is built on false premises. You said (emphasis added by me):

... the SO path (cadet or otherwise) is a great opportunity for the low experienced, with a good solid career prospect ahead (at least compared to elsewhere)

Good solid career prospect? Respectfully, under what rock do you live my friend? Here are just some of the career killers we have experienced recently, feel free to rebuttal them or at least post the positives:

- Countless seniority breaches - DEFOs and DECs with perfectly suitable candidates waiting in turn.
- Dismissal by HKG courts of by-pass pay protection - what is supposed to stop (or at least make it financially harder for) the company to violate promotions in seniority.
- Raising retirement age from 55 to 65 - and simultaneously forcing those who do stay past 55 onto lower conditions of service.
- Violation of scope clause - with regards to allowing subsidiaries like AHK to fly wide-body freighters (744BCFs) when it was specifically agreed they would not operate wide-body aircraft.
- Removal of expatriate benefits to new hire SOs, with the ridiculous offer of 10K per month, which is not even a fifth of the current (SO2 and above) rate and has no tie to the economy (housing index fluctuations).

So I really don't understand what career you are talking about. Current SOs waiting for upgrades are going on year 5 (beyond the pay-scale so no yearly increments) and they were told 18 months upgrade to FO when they were hired.

So buyer beware. This part of the world is very different to where you come from. There is no respect to contracts (if you are the employee, not so for the employer), so anything you get in writing is written in invisible ink as far as the courts are concerned. Don't say you were not warned, all the information is out there in the open, it rests solely on your shoulders if you make a decision and later regret it!

[Arfur Dent]

7700 - Well said - required reading for all new applicants. Excellent!:ok:
Sad - but true that modern Corporate Culture (sic) always seems to strive for getting the workforce to do as much as possible for the smallest rewards - that's the stated aim - 'Duty to shareholders' etc etc. When even applicants desperate for a job refuse an offer of one, the Board meets and slightly improves the package (watch this space). Not because of any respect for the future 'team member' - just because they have to fill slots.
And all that 'Thanks for making this a record year' stuff seems slightly hollow................

[Flap10]

Good solid career prospect? Respectfully, under what rock do you live my friend? Here are just some of the career killers we have experienced recently

I agree with your comments, and financial numbers aside, most of the other airlines in this part of the world have the same management tactics, Emirates, Qatar, etc. are no different, so hard to factor in pilot treatment when a wannabe is looking for employment with an airline. My advice to a wannabe is don't get into this profession from the start, it's not what it used to be, in fact I don't even consider it a profession anymore. :(

[Flaps10]

Sqwak77000

If you haven't already, please blanket the threads in the wannabes forum with your post. I would do it but I can't possibly take credit for something so well written.

If these guys would hold off on saying yes to a job offer they will see much better terms offered in the NEAR future and everyone will benefit.
:ugh:

[Humber10]

I hope all you newbies all take note of c'mugs research and comments from those like sqwak, they are spot on.

working for a large company in this part of the world, you are just a number and are treated as such. large companies have their PR machines going non-stop with self gratifying dribble, dont be fooled, they may win awards for being such great employers etc but they are far from it.

[Frogman1484]

I have an apartment for rent. It is 571 sq feet. The current rent is $13000 per month. It is in an old block and out of the way. The rent is probably one of the cheaper ones around.

As you can see the $10000 Cx is offering for you accommodation will not even rent you a 2 bedroom box. If you do pay in the difference and move in you will be living in this box until you are a senior FO which is probably 6-7 years.
After that you housing will move to $14000 which basically means you will still live in the box for a few more years.

Once you get to Captain rank you then can move into a 3 bedroom apartment of about 1100 sq feet ( slightly bigger box).

The one catch is that you will have to wait about 15 years before you can live in a big enough place.

While you wait for the better accommodation to happen, you will be bonded by CX with their cash offer. All this means that while you are going backwards financially you will not be able to leave for 6 years.

What this means is that CX knows that this is a **** offer and the only way they can stop you from going somewhere better is by bonding you. If they did not bond you they know that everyone would come and get the rating and leave to better paying and lifestyle places.

All I can say is that you need to be very careful as once you move, you will not be able to leave...sounds like slave labour to me.

[IFB]

I tend not to post here too much as IMO I feel that many of the comments are rather polarised and often at the more extreme ends of the majority view. HOWEVER, for those of you thinking this new housing and forgivable loan sounds good enough to accept. BE IN NO DOUBT the previous posts deriding this deal are totally unbiased in their analysis. A rare occurrence on this forum. Accept it at your folly.

[tyson744]

Totally agree. The offer is very wrong. Particularly if you already have a family.

[seventy-seven]

Mate what you have stated is generally quite true about CX.A lot of SO's in CX either love it or hate it! Not getting any flying for possibly four or even five years is a real turn off plus living in a virtual dog box takes character especially if you are married. Thats another issue stay single and dont take your girlfriend to HKG. Ninety per cent of white women HATE HKG.There are better options for the likes of someone of your obvious intelligence and CX will be poorer for it.
Good Luck for the future.

[crwjerk]

Coffee Mug, not far off the "money".
You can also add another couple of thousand for taxis and your octopus card.
One or two thousand for your house cleaner.
Phone , TV, Internet could add up to a couple of thousand also.
There's a quick 6000 to add to your -6%.

[crwjerk]

Indeed, thanks!

[Clear_sky]

crwjerk -
If you join on the new deal you ain't getting a house cleaner anytime soon. The air con bills as stated above will take care of that cash.

[Harbour Dweller]

Who needs a maid for 400 sq ft of apartment anyway.

There is no space for even the dust to sit :p

[The Wraith]

It is genuinely sad that CX have sunk to this level....a once Career airline who EVERYONE wanted to join. Now it will attract the desperate and ill informed, those who will convince themselves that they CAN survive in HKG on this "package". Tyler and Co will go down in history as the people who finally engineered the end of a once proud airline. Sure, they are too arrogant and out of touch, and will be too busy counting their "Bonuses" to care, but they will be judged nevertheless.
It is a sad time in the Airline's history, and it's founders would cringe, but that is the caliber of the "modern" manager. :{

[crwjerk]

crwjerk -
If you join on the new deal you ain't getting a house cleaner anytime soon. The air con bills as stated above will take care of that cash.

As I was trying to tell him.........;)

[flyinryan76]

So I posted the following questions below on the wannabe's forum but never received a response. I am simply trying to find out the FACTS! There are a lot of people bemoaning CX (and I'm sure there are some good reasons) but there are only a few people giving specific numbers and reasons. Could someone please provide me with answers to the questions below so that I could make my own decision in relation with my specific circumstances. Thanks!


hey guys,

Been following this thread for a bit and had a few questions. I was offered a stage 1 interview in SFO next month and would like to have a better idea of what the T&C's are for this job. I realize I could probably read through all 119 pages to find the answer but I don't have that kind of time! :) So....

1) What is the basic pay for those who are hired as a SO in the cadet program fast track? I have my ATP and 3,000 hours... not sure if that makes a difference in the pay stucture.

2) Commuting possible? Some of my family lives in Taiwan and am wondering if it would be possible to live there and fly to HKG?

thanks for the help!

[crwjerk]

1. Around 65K USD total. Pay structure is the same whatever your experience, only the training time varies.

2. Yes, should be quite easy to commute on an S/O roster. Many have done before and Taiwan is very accessible from HK as you know.

[Mooseflyer]

If you have an interview in SFO, it may be assumed that you are probably used to commuting by pitching up at the gate, flashing your ID and medical, and getting on the jumpseat of just about any carrier you want to get to work. Just be warned, that's not the case at CX. There are ID90, ZED, etc travel benefits, but travel is not free as you're likely used to. Probably not a huge deal from TPE, but from North America it would likely be a big challenge. I don't have too many specifics as I don't commute - perhaps someone who does will chime in.....

[flyinryan76]

Thanks crwjerk! Does this include the 10,000 housing allowance or is this basic salary?

[crwjerk]

Yes I included the allowance. Ballpark figures though.

[Voiceofreason]

Actually, I think it's closer to USD 75k with the 10k housing and HDP, and about USD 140k for FO year 1. Not too shabby. Course, no telling how long to wait until you get to FO.

[broadband circuit]

Not too shabby

Whatever you're on man, cut the dose!

Although your location says Hong Kong Voiceofreason, the fact that you're referencing the package in US$, plus your lack of understanding of the cost of living in HK for expats, I wonder if you really are in HK.....

[Voiceofreason]

the fact that you're referencing the package in US$

Was replying to crwjerk's quoted figure of US$65k

your lack of understanding of the cost of living in HK for expats, I wonder if you really are in HK

I am, and have been for most of my life. Although I'm not Chinese, I'm also not an expat, and therefore admittedly have no reference point "back home" to compare cost of living, although I did live in the UK for a while - talk about expensive!

I'm managing ok right now with a mortgage of just over HK$12k for a 1400sqft apartment - not too much difference when I look at prices in Sydney or Vancouver (I stand to be corrected) - and more than made up for by the massive difference in tax rates.

My big qualifier is that I don't really know what a "back home" quality of life is. But for some (like me) Hong Kong is a pretty good place to be.

Sorry for the outburst of optimism! I know, it's unseemly on this forum.

[lost&found]

mortgage of just over HK$12k for a 1400sqft apartment


lamma, Tung Chung or New Territories?

[Voiceofreason]

lamma, Tung Chung or New Territories?

None of those, but does it matter?

[lost&found]

does it matter?


depends on the standard/ type of lifestyle you want....

does a young SO, new to HK, want to live out of town, amongst the local communities of HK, away from the great attraction to HK - its social scene...? if so maybe you could point out where you live, Voiceofreason...

or

does this young SO want to be in the heart of the atmosphere, close to his/her social scenes...? Most people that come to HK are leaving families and friends, the first thing they are going to look for is a social network and accesibility to it.

im not sure you can find a rental apartment the size you are in (1400sqft) for anywhere below 30,000HKD, close to town. However, if im wrong i, and most people on this forum, would love to know where you got such a great bargain!

[Voiceofreason]

I guess one of the great things about Hong Kong is that many places are not that far from town. I live less than 45 minutes from SoHo etc. which is a reasonable trip in any city. In fact, I would compare it to a choice between living in, say, central London or Sydney and living the high life, but paying for it, and living out in the 'burbs and having more space but less enjoyment. Perhaps this isn't the right analogy though - as I say, I've never really spent a significant part of my life anywhere else.

Also, that young SO may well want to spend his first few years in the heart of town, but he may not. Depends if he's married or not I guess (and with or without girlfriend...!)

I'd agree that on the Island, that size would be tricky to get for anything less than $30k in mortgage - except maybe South Horizons I guess.

All I'm saying is, I'm managing it, enjoying it, and others I know do too. I'm married with a kid on the way, and with these new allowances, I'll be doing pretty well. Certainly it's expensive here, but the tax helps - on the flip side, I just can't see how GA or regional pay rates get you anywhere in Oz/Canada/US with 40+% marginal rates.

[lost&found]

I live less than 45 minutes from SoHo etc. which is a reasonable trip in any city.


yes it is a reasonable trip... i think the chinese border is less than 45 minutes away.

Its an exspensive beer with your mates when you do choose to come into central though!

we have drifted off the post a little...

[Voiceofreason]

Its an exspensive beer with your mates when you do choose to come into central though!

Again, when I lived in the UK, it cost me at least GBP10 to get into town and back followed by GBP4.50 for a pint. Just saying...

we have drifted off the post a little...

I thought we were talking about the Wannabes and what they might face in choosing the iCadet package? Seems to me the price of beer is pretty relevant!

[crwjerk]

Sorry to start a currency war, I was merely quoting in his home currency for ease of understanding. :ok:

[flyinryan76]

Thanks to all who have contributed... I'm finding the information very helpful. A few more questions/comments....

In regards to the person who mentioned commuting.... I currently do not commute and am thankful for that! Are you saying that there are zero ID90 tickets to travel to and from work? You mean I am paying for a ZED fair which basically means I will be paying for the taxes? No doubt this is something to consider but I would imagine that this would still be relatively cheap as Taiwan is quite close. At any rate, it is something to definetly consider!

Living costs in HK...
To be honest, the idea of living in the city is somewhat of a turn off to me. I would much prefer to be 45 min to 1 hour outside and commute in. Am I to assume that voiceofreasons 12k for 1400 Sq. Ft. is a reasonable price if you live outside the main city?

Finally, taxes! Living within HK I am to assume everything is taxed at 15%?

[Voiceofreason]

Are you saying that there are zero ID90 tickets to travel to and from work? You mean I am paying for a ZED fair which basically means I will be paying for the taxes?

You can commute on ID90 fares, and many do - provided you find someone decent enough to grant you his jumpseat.

To be honest, the idea of living in the city is somewhat of a turn off to me. I would much prefer to be 45 min to 1 hour outside and commute in. Am I to assume that voiceofreasons 12k for 1400 Sq. Ft. is a reasonable price if you live outside the main city?

I tend to agree with you. As I said, though, my 12k is based on a 70% mortgage, and I/the bank paid HK$6.3m to get that 1400 sqft place. To rent it would probably be double that.

Finally, taxes! Living within HK I am to assume everything is taxed at 15%?

Salary is taxed on a variable scale, depending on how much you can deduct due to dependants/kids etc. Last year I think I paid just over 10% (although you will have to pay provisional tax - kind of a system of next year's tax in advance - a b!tch when you first arrive). Budgeting for 12% is probably fair until you start making your way up the ranks, but it's capped at 15% in any event.

[Cpt. Underpants]

In case you haven't been paying attention, HKG Govt now require 25% down on all properties < HKD6 million, 50% on properties over HKD6 million. It's meant to curb speculation by mainlanders. All it's done is shut locals out of the market entirely.

ID90 (zone fare) HKG-TPE HKD564 return (economy). Flights always full, many commuting cabin crew. You'll be lucky to get on. I would suggest that unless you want to plan on coming back a few days ahead of your rostered (scheduled) flight, you'll need a full fare ticket - USD200 each way.

IF you can find a 1400 sq ft place for HKD6.3 million, rentals will be north of HKD23K per month exclusive of taxes and "management fees".

You are taxed on income, discretionary bonus, other bonuses, education allowance and rental assistance. 15% is the cap on salary, but my tax bill frequently exceeds 20% of gross income. It may only take 20 minutes to complete a tax return, but by G*d, they get their money.

If you're a US citizen, remember that you have to file for Uncle Sam as well, and he'll want his share after USD70 or USD80K (or thereabouts) too.

NO taxation agreements between HKG and Canada at present, the guys and girls are being taxed by both countries on their after tax income. Punitive right now. It's under appeal, but pay first, debate later.

[T-Mass]

Thanks Capt.Under for the pointers.

I believe Uncle Sam wants his share on income above $91,500, and IIRC you may use housing as deductible if you pay $30,000/yr or more. In any case, not a "good deal" which ever way you want to spin it.

[raven11]

It's not a good deal... which is what people have been trying to convey.

For 20 years the benefits package has deteriorated due to a glut of pilots on the market. The bean counters have had a field day...

To continue with paying a low wage they are trying to entice pilots (with little to no flying experience) with a "joiners" loan. Just so they can continue to pay a low wage.

Why not pay pilots like they used to? Market forces....if you pay them they will come.

[Sqwak7700]

The funny thing is, that some people will leap at this "joining bonus", but not enough to meet the demand. So eventually, the company will restore the package to where it should be and the people who leapt at the loan will have wished that they had held out for better conditions.

Don't be fooled by the bow on the turd! It might be a really pretty bow but you are still getting shat on.