Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Posted on the Wannabe Forum

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Posted on the Wannabe Forum

Old 13th Oct 2010, 23:33
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Posted on the Wannabe Forum

Why I knocked back Cathay... Finally one of them gets it.

"Over the last few weeks I have been harrassed by my mates as to why I turned my back on working for what is suspposed to be one of the worlds best airlines, so thought I would share my experience to anybody interested so that perhaps any other starry-eyed low-time pilots such as myself can avoid the Cathay trap.

Was I stupid? arrogant? drunk? did I fail?? No on all counts and let me set the record straight as to why.

After a series of interviews, medicals etc and all that good stuff, I was given the nod to join the Cathay cadet program. This involves spending over a year in Adelaide at a private flying college sponsored by Cathay, after which I would have a commerical license signed off for Hong Kong, and would then go straight into the (back)seat of a heavy jet. Sounds too good to be true right?, well wait theres more.

Thankfully I have a few friends in Cathay, both First Officers and very senior Captains (ex management in fact), all level headed blokes with no axe to grind, and the overriding impression I received from them, and from a few other experienced guys in other airlines (Emirates, ANA, VA), whom I spoke in the lead up to this decision was basically this: dont do it, but if you do, make sure you have a very good sense of humor.

Cathay fly to some great destinations, but as it was pointed out, I would have zero chance of enjoying them, ever, because the time spent at destination is less than 24 hours, usually 18 hours, and apparently after a flight, you have to sleep straight away because you usually arrive after not having slept all night, and then you have to get presleep for the following nights flight. All the crew go straight to bed (called "slam-clickers"!), and even if you wanted to have a drink with one of the flight attendants (which as a single guy I always thought was part of the job description in any airline!), well the cabin crew will just stay in their rooms because they have to save their overnight allowances to compensate for their low salary. And besides apparently, most of them are quite difficult to communicate with.
So essentially you turn up to work 70 minutes before a flight, then go straight to the aircraft where after takeoff you usually go to sleep for the first half of the flight, and "work" for the second half of the flight.
Work basically involves checking off flight times on a fight plan, doing fuel checks, following the route on maps, and talking to ATC. This is not hands on flying, but "flight management".
As a second officer, you arent allowed to takeoff or land. So basically you are locked in the flight deck or the bunk, for 12-16hours, and then you spend an hour on a bus to a 3 star hotel in the middle of nowhere, where you sleep and cant go out because the hotel is usually in an industrial or outskirts area, and then you do it all in reverse again back to Hong Kong.

It will then take you a few days to get over your jet lag, which apparently is not very good for your long term health. And speaking of health, if the job doesnt kill you then the pollution will apparently. The government even has official "stay indoors" days! because it can get quite thick.

Rinse, repeat, for four years, the average time spent as a second officer.
And just in case you were thinking of leaving Cathay to fly elsewhere, the rating Cathay give is a "P2X" which is not a full conversion and is Hong Kong specific, so other airlines will not accept your Airbus or Boeing qualifications.

Then when you finally go right hand seat as First Officer, it only lasts 2 years maximum as you will then become a "Relief Pilot" which is another term they invented to save costs to save having 2 captains on a flight. What this means is that you will spend your time doing the same job as.. guess what..? Yes a Second Officer again! So great, you do relief pilot work for probably 5 to 10 years until your command. And they have just extended the retirement age, so you will have to wait even longer for upgrade to Captain.

And even better, when you are a first officer and a Captain, you will be working your ring off. The working hours are apaprently ****e. I personally dont mind working hard but these guys say that their efforts are beyond resonable definitions. They told me about a loophole the compnay uses called "split duty" where you fly to a destination at night, spend 40 minutes on a bus to a crappy hotel where you sleep for around 5 hours, then bus back to the airport and fly back to Hong Kong, which I guess would be ok once in awhile but they do it all the time. Sounds like the Hong Kong regulator turns a bit of a blind eye over there which is not very reassuring.

And then every year Cathay will introduce a new route or destination where they will make guys fly really hard, wait until the regulator tells them to use more pilots on the route or rest more, which they will do for a short time, but then they will go back to the previous roster to see how long they can try it on for. Which sounded to me like some backyard GA outfits in Oz you read about.

So surely all this sounds a little backward as far as employee relations go I asked them? "Exactly" was the response, which is why Cathay is always in court. They recently hired first officers directly over second officers who were ready for upgrade, which in my book sounds a bit dissapointing. The second officers actually took the comany to court over it. And the cabin crew are always on the brink of striking too.

Oh and if you complain? Well they mark your comments in your file, then basically tell you to leave and work elsewhere.. Hmmm.

So what about the cool aircraft you guys fly? Well they say that after a few years it doesnt really matter if its a 380 or a 180, the flying becomes just a job, which I guess I can understand.

So whats it really like being a 2nd officer in Cathay? I enthusiastically asked my potentially fellow aviation brethren, looking for some kind of bone here..well not good news here either Im afraid. The unofficial line is that you are treated with a subtle mix of indifference and resentment, and if you join as a cadet you are basically considered as incompetent also, and a poor substitute for the higher paid Captain who would otherwise be sitting there were it not for managements constant drive to keep cutting costs. Plenty of jokes about second officers being known as "sandwich eaters", because thats all they do. Sounds pretty depressing to me. They make you do a simulator every 2 months (other pilots only do simulator exercises every 6 months).
And eventually, and I do mean eventually, in around 15 years, when you come up for command, there is a very large failure rate amongst cadets. Basically this is they say because the cadets dont have any real aviation experience to fall back on. And once you fail a command upgrade twice, then they either sack you or keep you as a first officer for ever. This deal keeps on getting worse by the minute!

Finally, the M question. Money.
So great, now Im back in Hong Kong and its time to live it up right? After all Ive made it to the top and can kick back a little in my huge pad and German car? Hong Kong with its low tax and company subsidised housing sounds like a pretty sweet deal? Well err not quite.
I was in for a shock - take home buying power for a First Officer is below Jetstar! Hard to believe but true. Food, gas, and most importantly beer, and well even more importantly a place to live, cost an absolute fortune. With a newly minted salary, I did some checking because I didnt believe what the guys were saying, and even if I spend two thirds of my take-home dollars, I would still be living in a classic highrise smaller than the size of my garage, complete with washing hanging out the windows (plenty of property websites to check for yourself). And thats just to rent, because to own a house up there now is apaprently impossible because of the rising prices.
Previously the pilots received a housing subsidy, but now management has introduced a "C" scale package which is just basic salary (there were A and B scale packages before, each better than the last).
And if you try and send money home back to Australia, what you can buy with your salary is pretty minimal. It would take me 20 years to save for a small house in Doncaster, a fairly average Aussie suburb, which is where my family is.
And dont fall into the trap that the comany will keep wages to match inflation as they wont.

So just to reconvince myself that this is the best decision I never made, just let me recap:

salary - less than any Australian airline..crap
accommodation - living in an apartment with refugee camp dimensions?..crap
lifestyle - not being able to go jogging because of the pollution, and having any family exposed to that kind of smog?..crap
fellow pilots - sorry boys, nothing personal but not exactly a cosy family
cabin crew - nothing on a Virgin girl! (call me shallow)
career prospects - this airline seems to always slot in other pilots ahead of others on the list..the rating then is crap
flying - playing seat warmer for 4 years..crap
how hard I have to work...I believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work, but from what I hear its like slave labour.
Bottom line..40 years of that? Tell them theyre dreaming!

Hope this little synopsis doesnt appear too negative, after all I did a lot of research and tried to be objective the whole way through, after all I even committed to the entire interview process, but frankly it just plainly doesnt stack up, that to leave Australia to work for those kind of people would mean that there would have to be something wromg with me.

I encourage anybody else out there considering Cathay to really do their homework too and make up their own mind - dont take it from me.But I would be suprised if you come to any other conclusion. I was suprised at how appealing the lcoal creer options really are, and that the grass was not greener. It seems that the good old days at Cathay are exactly that.

Also BTW the decision to say no to Cathay was perhaps a little easier than just saying no, as I was not the only one, as a few applicants I have kept in touch with have done the same - apologies if I sounded like the first!.

I personally think its better to get some solid command and multi hours before I go for an airline, if only for the self reassurance of having some experience for my later command days. So right now Im taking a solid GA path instead with some multi turboprop hours on the horizon, and then in a year or two will look at Virgin or Jetstar, or one of the nearby airlines (Brunei etc).

But have still got the name on the file for Qantas as a backup just in case"
cxorcist is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 01:30
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Miffed at being an online internet comedy ....
Age: 69
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Good for you young fella you're obviously a wise young lad and I applaud your decision.

There's a reason they call it a "cockpit" because it's a place where guys like me hang out .... sucking the life and soul out of the airline, ruining morale and treating their fellow aviators like second class citizens to feed their ego.
Capt Toss Parker is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 01:36
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Possibly one of the best thought out and presented posts on FH for a long time. So the good guys stop coming, what are we left with.
treboryelk is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 02:01
  #4 (permalink)  
crwjerk
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
We'll be left with those who will be sick of hearing ..." WE TOLD YOU SO...!"
 
Old 14th Oct 2010, 02:55
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HK
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Very well written and it shows that you obviously have done your homework , good for you mate! Best of luck with your career choice I think you have made a very smart and well informed choice.
pasa001 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 05:36
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: U.S.
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Beautiful post! Bravo! I love to see someone REALLY think out a decision before going through with it! I can only hope that other hopefuls will read your post for what it is, and open their own eyes. I am happy at CX, but if I had to join on what is being offered now, there is no way I would consider coming here. Good on you, you have made a wise decision!

box
boxjockey is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 05:36
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sunny Shores...
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Shallow - maybe.

Spot on - definitely!!

Good luck for the future...
kulchashock is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 06:10
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 1,849
Received 46 Likes on 19 Posts
A very sad indictment on what, two decades ago, was a world-beating airline; world beating in new routes, passenger service and cockpit crew morale.

Now, when (or if) you do make captain, management is still appalling, the hotels are still 3-star, still in crappy areas (but convenient to Chinatown) and the overnight patterns just get worse and worse.

On a personal note, there is one good side: luckily for my marriage, the cabin crew are 'Olympic torches'; they travel the world and never go out!

Last edited by Captain Dart; 14th Oct 2010 at 22:00.
Captain Dart is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 06:29
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Your decision is wise. I've recently done a fleet forum in which we were told that we are not ruling out hiring direct entry FOs and CAs if crewing becomes more of a problem.

So get your time and then apply as direct entry. You will receive housing and not have to spend a day as SO.
Sqwak7700 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 15:28
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
well written, but I would like to correct you on one thing. we stay in 1 star hotels, not 3 star as you have mentioned
Humber10 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 18:21
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Uk
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CXORCIST...whilst I do agree with a lot of what you say, and you certainly say it very eloquently, I have to say that the replies reflect the weight of negativity that prevails on this forum. The proportion of this on fragrant harbour I have to tell you isn't the same proportion that prevails at CX in general.

I admire your decision to pursue other paths to an airline job many of which will provide you with a a far better grounding than the CX cadet route, but some misinformation has led you to a number of your mis-givings about the job at CX....I'll try to address them in turn

SALARY........true ..without the housing, the pay is crap.....FOR AN AIRLINE PILOTS JOB, but how much worse would be the equivalent GA salary be with a freshly issued CPL.

ACCOMMODATION....I agree..you wont be able to get too much for the 3 or 4 years you are an S/O.... Down route though, the quality of accommodation is variable....tops that I know are the Shangrila Dubai and the Hyatt in Frankfurt.....bottom the Hilton Milan and the Park in london....but they're certainly not 1, or even 3 star...night stops are generally comfortable and fun and not the slumber ridden nightmare you describe and fatigue is always going to be part of any long haul airline pilots job

LIFESTYLE...... one of the major plus points about being an S/O...most of the guys I fly with whilst keen to upgrade and do a bit of regional flying are very reluctant to give up their 15-19 days off a month and all the swanning around Asia that allows....Its a similar lifestyle as a based relief F/O although changing a bit now, but make no mistake ..life as an S/O is cushy

FELLOW PILOTS.....apart from a lot of the militant whingers you'll find on this forum, they're as good and bad as you'll find in any other Airline

CABIN CREW...Agree..nothing on a virgin girl...non existent social contact on night stops

CAREER PROSPECTS....in a word slow!...but no lower than any other national Airline...and certainly not the potential 5+ years as an S/O that I hear Qantas can be
...you will be upgraded though....and there are 747-400 passenger Captains now who joined CX 10 years ago

FLYING.....not good as an S/O, Relief..1 or 2 landings a month.....same or a bit less as a senior bloke at BA...but doing long haul only what can you expect. But if you upgrade onto the 777 as an F/O based in HK then you'll get a good balance of short haul and long haul

HOW HARD I HAVE TO WORK....as an S/O.... not very, as a based F/O....not very, as a HK based 330 F/O or Capt...very!

BOTTOM LINE...dont listen to everything everyone tells you...there are a lot of problems at Cathay, but maybe not as many as some would have you believe..I was warned away from joining by some at my last company who hadn't the first clue about anything...they were just regurgitating what they'd heard from others ...It sounds like you've done some research but heard a very biased view of things ,which is mostly what you'll get from this forum.

I wish you all the best and am sure that eventually you will arrive in the job you are looking for
sorvad is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 20:52
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: At Home
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow, I am a relatively positive person, but even I can't help but mention that your post is 100% spot-on accurate for what the current and future pilots will be seeing in the Fragrant Harbor International Airline.
I'mbatman is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 22:25
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
100% accurate assessment of current CX conditions.

One thing to consider however for zero time pilots - take the cadetship, get the CPL & Frozen ATPL, get the P2X and do some trips on CX, BUT find another job and tell CX to stick it.

Under HKG law an employee can't be bonded (regardless of what CX might try and tell you).

So, take the Aussi training and then find yourself a job working for a good airline.
cxlinedriver is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2010, 23:28
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Fragrant Harbour
Age: 49
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I disagree, about most of the points, but i really hope in ten years when you are struggling still to earn even a basic living in GA beacue the aviation industry has slowed completely trapping you in a Navajo doing night freight that you dont regret this decision.

I dont know many second offecers complaining about there job and the lifestyle it gives them.

Yes the housing part of the deal sucks but in 10 years time you will be so far better of than doing the GA bit.
flyingkiwi is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 01:29
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: A Happy Place
Age: 51
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I agree with cxlinedriver. The International Cadet program has its place if you are willing to move around a bit. The free training and experience is almost unparalleled in the industry. If you are a young guy, take the training and experience and go where you will be payed what you are worth. Treat it like a 6 or 7 year contract.
Loiter1 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 03:04
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: In your mind.
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hey flying kiwi, maybe if you asked an SO what they thought you would know. A good chunk I know are contemplating a move.
Rook is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 03:09
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: canada
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Airlines are like girlfriends. You'll always complain about them but you need to find one that work best for you.

CX is not a perfect job but is sure beats flying fish in an overloaded C-206 in icing conditions. If you can put aside the bulls*^%t which will be at EVERY company, get yourself a shiny big jet endorsement with a little time on type, you'll be sitting sweet for any airline job in the future. Believe it or not but CX on a resume is actually not a bad thing when searching for work.

You obviously did your home work but one thing to keep in mind. Their problems are not always your problems so keep an open mind and make your own decisions based on your experiences/risk comfort not solely based on someone else.

Good luck in your future endeavors.
grind king is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 03:52
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: U.S.
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Let me first say that I am very happy with my job here at CX, there is nowhere I would go from here. Now, those of you who are posting positive points, good on you, but I think you fail to grasp the gravity of trying to live in Hong Kong on NO HOUSING ALLOWANCE!! How far do you really think the starting SO salary will go without housing assistance? Come on guys, be honest!! Now, as some other have said, if you have 0 experience or licensing, then give it a go. At least you can get your training paid for, and see how things are going when you complete. For the pilots who are already licensed and experienced, it just doesn't make any sense. You will be an SO for at least 3.5 years, the numbers support this. The rating you receive is worthless, and so is the time you log. On SO salary with no housing, you will live like a pauper, this is not an exaggeration. I just don't understand why someone with previous experience would even consider coming here under the new terms. You could find a job in your home country nearly anywhere in the world, and your total quality of life would be better than coming to Hong Kong. I guess I just don't get it.....

box
boxjockey is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 04:03
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hong kong
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Under HKG law an employee can't be bonded

Sorry CXD but you are wrong. I've heard this so many time so I checked it out. An employee in HK can bond. In fact, I heard from a recently joined cadet that he has signed a bond agreement.
AnAmusedReader is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2010, 07:59
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Moved beyond
Posts: 1,169
Received 83 Likes on 48 Posts
I don't disagree with the sentiments expressed in the original post, however, perhaps we should bear in mind the following:

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent"
BuzzBox is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.