Cheap Pilot III GPS in Jan sales?

[Rusty Cessna]

I am proably hoping for something that ain't going to happen, but is there any chance of picking a Pilot 3 up cheap in the January sales? Being a student I can't one at the mo!

Thanks for any input,
Rusty.

[DOC.400]

GPS?? Get real Rusty!! Get a few hours of dead reckoning under your belt, then an IMC rating so you can use those NDB and VOR thingy's, then, and only then, start to even think about a GPS....

Doubt it on the sales though Rusty. Cheapest I've seen was 425 incl from Harry Mendelsohns.

[Megaton]

If you have military aspirations then I would resist the emotional crux of a GPS. Practice your dead reckoning and when it all turns to rat 5h1t you get a practice pan thrown in as well! :D

[200V AC, 3 Phase, 400 Hz]

Why do people hate GPS?
I think it is great, and yes I can navigate using a map and the stars! ;)

[Rusty Cessna]

Hmm point taken folks, I wasn't going to rely on it, just wanted a new toy I spose ;).

Thanks for the input, best stick with good ole DR!

Rusty.

[Final 3 Greens]

Rusty

There is no harm at all in using a GPS, so long as it is to confirm you DR.

You should get some training from an instructor in how to do this and the potential pitfalls (Irv Lee wrote a couple of good articles in Flyer recently), but subject to this proviso what on earth is wrong with adding an extra tool to you bag?

If anything, you will become better at DR by understanding the factors (such as wind drift and inaccurate flying) that combine to cause your track to go off plan and to estimate corrective action accordingly.

I wouldn't go for a GP3 though, a 92 will do the job very well and is less expensive. ALso, for DR, buy a copy of the GPS book which gives lats and longs for towns and villages, so that you can still fly to line features.

[Mariner9]

Ignore the technology dinosaurs, & go get a GPS Rusty. I'm sure PPRuNe was full of discussions about the dangers of the new-fangled navigation tools like sextants & chronometers in the 18th Century <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It's not a case of being a dinosaur. The trouble with GPS for single pilot VFR is that it tends to keep your eyes inside instead of out. After 20 odd years of eyeball and mapping my way around the UK in vintage VFR types, I recently bought a Pilot 111. It's a great piece of kit - but you've got to be careful not to rely on it too much becuase it's very clever while not being 100 percent reliable. And while you're playing with it you are not looking out. When you are looking for that nav landmark (village, river, whatever), you are by definition looking out.

I have to discipline myself to keep my eyes outside and stop fiddling with the gadget too much. For a newbie, who perhaps hasn't yet fully developed those eyball and map skills, it could be a fatal distraction and may mean that those vital skills never get learned.

GPS is great - just ensure YOU are ITS master, and you don't neglect those basic skills every pilot should have. And most of all - keep a good lookout.

SSD

[poetpilot]

Hi, SSD, I think we discussed this lookout thing in another thread recently. I would agree totally with that aspect, though in fairness a student messing with maps and stuff may be in just the same position as me playing with my new GPS...

I'd back up what others have said about knowing how to navigate without GPS first, therefore wait a bit if you can.... because the technology moves so fast these days, by the time you've qualified there'll either be much cheaper Pilot IIIs, or more advanced toys at the same price.

However, to cut corners, check out the US prices at <a href="http://www.sportys.com." target="_blank">www.sportys.com.</a> Just bear in mind though that you may have to pay VAT & delivery charge to get one into the UK. Unless you can get a friend to bring one over as a gift for you? In which case it work out around £370 - ish rather than £455.

Oh, and it MUST be Atlantic Intnl database (obviously their standard one over there is great for the US but nearly useless for the UK.

[Mariner9]

Personally I find I keep a better lookout since I aquired my GPS. Prior to that, I was spending a lot of time eyes on the map trying to identify landmarks as I pass them. Now a quick glance at the GPS confirms I'm where I thought I was.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Mariner9:

Excellent comments.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people haven't figured out that cross checking your position on the map using a GPS is a lot quicker than trying to find the place you were last at on your map.

As to having your head down to read the GPS, hell thats simple put the damn thing up above the panel where you don't have to look down.

This is the twenty first century, use the tools of the twenty first century.

Seems some of our brethern still think the earth is flat.

------------------

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Rob_L]

Good article by Richard Keech about using Garmin Pilot III in latest Gasco mag. Well worth looking at especially if you're new to it.
PS. Nigel Everett's the new editor, looks like he's turned the magazine around. It's much more readable and practical

[Lew Ton]

Hmmmm, wish I had a pound for every pilot who told me, when asked why they infinged the Little Snodgrass on the Marsh CTR, said 'I don't understand it, I was just following the GPS and. . .'

I'm not knocking it, just be careful out there.

[poetpilot]

....bit extreme there, Mr Cat Driver !!!

I would agree that we should make full use of all the gadgets available to us, but at the end of the day, we cannot/MUST NOT get so reliant on them that we're stuffed when they drop out. And it's all very well having the GPS up on the panel (couldnt put it anywhere else in my cramped little cockpit), but if you're looking it for too long, you're still not looking out the window where it counts....

Yes, I've just bought me a GPS (getting my grubby mitts on a Pilot III later today hopefully), yes, I'll be using it, but not as a sole aid to navigation and hopefully not to the detriment of lookout. But I wouldnt recommend it to a student until they've proved they can get around happily using basic methods.

Technology often has a habit of "dumbing down" people, making 'em lazy and over-reliant on stuff. Wouldnt like to see that in flying (well, maybe we are already seeing it..... good discussion point?)

Anyway, the earth IS flat. And it's held up by four giant elephants. I've read it, so it must be true. Sorry, must dash, I have an Inquisition to go to...
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[Rusty Cessna]

Hi folks,

Just wanted to say thanks for all the input into this. I am aware of the contributing factors and I would like to think I have the discipline, but maybe its worth waiting until ive gotten around a few more routes using the mk 1 eyeball.

Thanks again,
Rusty.

[Mariner9]

Guys,

I am not advocating navigation by GPS alone, without a backup. I wholly agree that technology can lead to "dumbing down". Navigation used to be an art, now even Marine engineers know where we are in the middle of the ocean. I once had some upstart of an 3nd engineer with a GPS telling me my noon sight was 3 miles out. (Like it matters when your 1000 miles from land!) However he could better establish our position despite my 15 years experience of deep sea navigating.

Let's face it, VFR DR nav isn't difficult. If you can pass the ppl Nav writtens & the QXC, you've already demonstrated sufficient skills.

I'm a firm believer in the use of the best tools available. Most merchant ships are now navigated by GPS, even though they have far more time (& professionally trained navigators) to establish their position by other means, than we do.

I'll stick to navigating primarily by GPS. If it falls over en-route (which mine hasn't yet), at least I'll know my last waypoint was spot on, and also have a good idea of actual winds, which will make DR for the rest of the route far easier.

And anyway, how can anyone say that using a single Nav system is risky when we're mostly flying about in 30 odd year old machines with a single engine?

So get real guys, use the best tools to make your flying safer, & more enjoyable.

[Megaton]

All fair points, mariner9, and absolutely valid if your ambitions extend no further than getting around the country on a ppl. Rusty, on the other hand, has expressed a desire to fly in either the RAF or Navy. Neither Service will be particularly impressed by someone who relegates navigation to button-pushing without having mastered the basics first. It may seem arcane to teach people to DR and then stream them to fly jets with INS, TRN, GPS etc but that's what they do. Regardless of how disciplined you intend to be there is only one way to get good at the basics and that is practice.

This is all pure hypocrisy on my part since I use radio-aids and LORAN and haven't DR in years. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks again for all input folks. Did't realise I would spark another debate on teh merits and downfalls of GPS.

Ham, you are right about my desires, but I wan't to assure you that I have no intention of relegating DR and stopping navigating by the normal means. I'd like to know the reasons why you assume I would, and why you would think the military would automatically assume I can't fly using DR?

Thanks again folks.

[Megaton]

I know from experience that if you have a choice between the relatively hard work of DR or sitting back and letting the GPS do it all for you, human nature will always take the easy way out. If you have greater self-control than me you might be sufficiently disciplined enough to only use the GPS as a comfort blanket. The military instructors will expect you to be 100% confident of your ability with a map, stopwatch and compass. So what are you up to now then, RC? have you applied to either the RAF or RN yet?

[Rusty Cessna]

Cheers for replying Ham,

Just re-read my post, I fear I may have come across as a tad arrogant or cocky, which was not intended. I see your point about self discipline, so as I said earlier, it might be wise to wait untill im completely confident with DR and map.

Thanks for asking about my situation, I have applied yes, though if you wouldn't mind, I'd prefer to chat about in e-mail, looking forward to hearing from you maybe.

Thanks again.
Rusty.

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: Rusty Cessna ]</p>

[Teenyweeny ATC Cdt Cpl]

All,
During my PPL I was lent a GPS III Pilot by a good friend of mine for my QXC. Used it nicely for the first leg (to Southend) ... then thought "Sod this, this is boring", put it back in the bag and carried on using "good ole' fashioned" DR. Much more fun!
-7000

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Ham:

I just have to ask you this. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

When these military instructors send an F16 pilot out to demonstrate his DR pilotage, do they give him 8 mile to the inch maps or 16 mile? Will they let him use a digital stop watch or must it be analog? Can he use his mickey mouse wrist compass?

But most important of all is does he become an instructor when he can demonstrate map reading on a five hundred mile trip at low level, at mach 1.5 with his 8 mile to the inch maps? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
.....................

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[Megaton]

You certainly right to question the relevancy of map and stopwatch nav these days but that's what happens in the Royal Flying Corps as we march steadily in to the 20th Century! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi again Ham:

I was only making fun of the whole aviation scene today, to many people get to carried away with relatively unimportant side lines.

So sometimes it helps to make fun of it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Merry Xmas.

.......................

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[GlueBall]

Let's keep in mind that in airline aviation we no longer require the use of a "Navigator" with "Sextant" and "Doppler" and "Loran" to work our way across the pond, eh? Omega/VLF Nav is history too! Today it's double or tripple IRS/INS and GPS coupled to FMS....with enough computer power to spit out more navigation info than anybody knows what to do with.

Just what's the point in learning how to use a slide rule when any hand-held calculator is 1000 times more accurate? Get real.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yeh, Glueball:

It just never ceases to amaze me that these morons who are in charge of flight training are still using the E6B computer to teach navigation!

It is very simple to teach a new student the triangle of velocities using a pencil, paper, protractor and ruler.

Once the student understands this very simple fact of flying ie. the wind will cause either a lower G.S. ,, higher G.S. or most common, drift, then anyone with any I.Q. should go to the electronic calculator to flight plan and to navigate in the air use the most accurate nav. aid. G.P.S.

Of course for VFR flying an up to date Aviation map is a must. Having said that G.P.S. makes flying not only easier but safer.

Wow! they are still teaching flying using the E6B amazing, just simply amazing. I wonder if you crash and need to survive do they still teach starting a fire by rubbing two sticks together?

..................

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)