TK crew did not /forgot to raise the gear ???

[MaxBlow]

A friend sent a mail saying that a TK A319 took off in IST for a domestic flight and did not/forget to raise the gear???:confused:

The airplane climbed to FL230 and had to land half way to refuel.
After that they continued to their original destination (uneventfully).

Might have been a sys failure but why would they continue if they just left the main base?

Fishy story? But also published on a Turkish aviation forum.:\

[LowFareFinder]

Given that the crew decided to re-fuel halfway to their destination, I very much doubt they forgot to raise the gear. More likely is a technical fault requiring the gear to be left down for the transit flight. This could happen for a number of reasons.

A gear left down will consume about 80% more fuel, therefore, and unlike the Dutch 757, one needs to be very careful about fuel consumption and you must not use the FMS for predicting the fuel burn.

[forget]

Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
Post suggests that crew 'forgot' to raise the gear. :ugh:
5 Stars for least professional post of the year - and there's only 11 weeks left.

[Starbear]

Did you mean this German Airbus one:
Hapag-Lloyd Flight 3378 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapag-Lloyd_Flight_3378)


or was there a Dutch 757 as welll

[LowFareFinder]

That's the one I meant Starbear.

[JW411]

Of course, it would be stating the obvious to say that if they forgot to take the gear pins out....................

It wouldn't be the first time such a thing has happened.

[Opsbeatch]

Gotta be pins...someone's gonna have a big red face somewhere...!

OB:ok:

[SKS777FLYER]

Forget Post suggests that crew 'forgot' to raise the gear.
5 Stars for least professional post of the year - and there's only 11 weeks left.

So the poster referred to is a professional poster here? Where do I sign up, I wanna be a professional poster too?!

[Bobbsy]

May a member of the SLF ask a question here?

Even from my point of view, I'd be very sceptical that the gear could ever be "forgotten" by the crew. From back where I have to sit, it's always extremely obvious when the gear is down because of the extra noise and vibration. I know the flight deck is farther away from the main gear (but not the nose gear) but can you tell me if having the gear down is as obvious up where you sit?

I've been very interested to read the various speculations on why they gear may have stayed down (if the rumour is even true) for operational reasons or external mistakes though.

Bob

[zetec2]

Excuse my ignorance only being an ex RAF engine fitter but do they put undercarriage pins in on civilian aircraft & does it generally apply to all/most aircraft ?? Paul H.

[dwshimoda]

zetec2:

Yes, at our place we do. There is also a rack in the FD where they are stowed so you always have a look at that, and one of the pre-start checklist items is:

gear pins............3 stowed

So you have a couple of opportunities to catch out any errant pins - the first and foremost being the walk-around of course....

DW.

[autopilot_off]

I've heard of it being done on go-arounds where workloads high, and the PNF misses the positive climb call, if you don't get the trigger then it's very easy to miss the item completely.
What with desperately trying not to overspeed flaps, monitoring speed/rate of climb/missed app procedure/radio's etc your brain might not register the extra noise I guess.

That being said to reach FL230 and not notice?! I know on my type you certainly wouldn't get the acceleration you'd be expecting, even in the initial climb, with the gear down so you'd start looking around for the cause..

Zetec2 from my experience most civi commercial aircraft have pins fitted but they're normally only put in place when the aircrafts in the hanger or being towed.

[hetfield]

I had two similar occasions on 320/family


- hot break warning after gear retraction
- LGCIU fault

very simple, keep cool:)

[nippysweetie]

They stopped to refuel then completed the journey uneventfully. Was gear retracted on second leg? Just asking...

[Herod]

I've done gear down ferries, although I don't think they're approved (in UK) with passengers aboard. As for having the pins in, that's a no-no. What happens if an engine fails? Better to raise the gear and maybe not be able to lower it again than crash off the end of the runway because of lack of climb performance.

[WindSheer]

Never forget one of our 321's getting off the ground with water in the 'weight on wheel' sensors. Not only would the gear not retract, but the computers went bonkers (as one would imagine given the machine thought it was on terra firma).
Being the nosey git that I am, I had a nose on the FD......the ECAM was full of red....:eek:

Speaking to the pilots, they both said how surprised they were when they selected gear up and the computers had one heck of a 'moment'!!

:p

[hetfield]

ref post #13

LGCIU fault

s... happens

[olympus]

Herod

What about the 146 that (allegedly) got airborne from LGW with a flightdeck full of management/training pilots and found they couldn't get the gear up because the pins were still in?

Rumour had it that one bright spark wanted to continue to Innsbruck before wiser heads prevailed!

[zetec2]

dwshimoda

Thanks for the info re u/c pins, never to old to learn something new, PH.

[Flap40]

Rumour had it that one bright spark wanted to continue to Innsbruck before wiser heads prevailed!

Would that have been the fleet manager and a line trainer over riding the chief pilot? ;)

[IFixPlanes]

When you have not put the gear up until 264 kts you have to leave it out until you slow down again below 260 kts.

[aca-98]

I believe that the max gear retraction speed on the 320 series is 220 kts. Actually this has happened at the airline I fly as contract pilot. A local crew forgot to raise the gear after take off in IST and only caught it on the after T/O checklist above transition altitude. They also forgot to slow down to raise it, causing red faces all around.

[SupaMach]

220kts is correct, 260 is the speed where the gear hydraulics are pressurised..

[djeskine]

It's just impossible for the crew to simply "forget" the gear down and NOT sense any abnormalities in noise increase and abnormal flight behaviour. Unless of course they were both stoned on something????

[IFixPlanes]

220kts is correct, 260 is the speed where the gear hydraulics are pressurised..No, 220 is not correct. At 264 kts the hydraulic pressure will be removed from the extension/retraction system.
I could quote the AMM, but you can check the FCOM 1.32.10 P3 :ok:

[fdr]

possibly but it does happen. remember one crew on a MegaDeath-II who were reportedly complaining of the poor rate of climb of the aircraft at 320KIAS, passing 15,000', when they realised they could hardly hear each other also. Finally pulled gear up at same speed, recall the gear doors didn't like that at all. :ok:

[SupaMach]

No, 220 is not correct. At 264 kts the hydraulic pressure will be removed from the extension/retraction system.
I could quote the AMM, but you can check the FCOM 1.32.10 P3

Sorry, but 220 is correct.

As I said, 260 is the speed for gear hyd pressurisation.
The green hydraulic system actuates all gear and doors. When the aircraft is flying faster than 260 kt, a safety valve automatically cuts off hydraulic supply to the landing gear system. Below 260 kt, the hydraulic supply remains cut off as long as the landing gear lever is up.

However, if you look at Fcom 3.1.20 (operational limitations)
Maximum speed at which the landing gear may be retracted (VLO retraction) 220 kt

So you should slow down to 220kts before retracting the gear.

I agree you could in theory retract below 260 as the system will have pressure though.

[wawkrk]

I remember many moons ago returning from Spain on a Spantax DC8, may have been a Corronado but I seem to remember DC8 if they had any, the Captain was smoking a pipe I remember.I think he wanted to look like ex RAF. Anyway, the landing gear would not retract.He told us SLF with our buckets and spades and stuffed donkeys that he had decided to continue but we had to re-fuel.It did not seem any different from a normal flight, apart from the re-fueling.

[MaxBlow]

I remember a Transair A300 taking off in MAN with the gear pins in (1997), they dumped 15t of fuel and returned to MAN.

Back to the original post, I spoke to a TK crew and they told me that the crew was on their 3rd leg that day. The gear has been left down to cool the brakes. Wx was bad and they had some sort of serious malfunction which required their immediate attention.

This, of course is all second hand info only (rumour) and I knew comments like the one from 'Forget' would rain down on me. But hey, they really seemed to have forgotten the gear while they where extremly busy sorting out the other problem(s).

[411A]

I remember a Transair A300 taking off in MAN with the gear pins in (1997), they dumped 15t of fuel and returned to MAN.


Yes, and I know just from where the FD crew came, and it was definitely not from the USA, Euroland, Canada, etc.:{

[silverstrata]

zetec2:

Yes, at our place we do. There is also a rack in the FD where they are stowed so you always have a look at that, and one of the pre-start checklist items is:

gear pins............3 stowed

DW.


Now that would be a professional airline. With our mob the gear pins are .... ?? ..... anywhere, and useful items in the checklist????

Can gear pins be forgotten? In a word, yes.

[Nubboy]

And don't forget rogue pins from the tug driver's pocket with no flags attatched:ugh::ugh:

3 pins on the flight deck doesn't mean you're safe, as a colleague once found out.

[BOAC]

Wx was bad and they had some sort of serious malfunction which required their immediate attention. - not high fuel consumption and apparent lack of climb performance I hope...................:)

[ballyctid]

Herod.......

"""I've done gear down ferries, although I don't think they're approved (in UK) with passengers aboard. As for having the pins in, that's a no-no. What happens if an engine fails? Better to raise the gear and maybe not be able to lower it again than crash off the end of the runway because of lack of climb performance."""


I've signed many an aircraft off for a gear down ferry back to main base and we always put the pins in, not only that they are wire locked in and flag removed, that's what the manuals say so where the "no-no" bit comes from i'm not sure.

Thats on 145's 146's and Dash's BTW.

[forget]

Remember the RAF VC10 that flew Terry Waite from Beirut to Cyprus, or maybe even from Cyprus to UK? It flew with the right gear stuck down.

[contractor25]

And don't forget rogue pins from the tug driver's pocket with no flags attatched:ugh::ugh:


That would most likely be the lock out pin for the nosewheel steering...not a major problem, you find out as soon as you wish to turn, unless you put a big size 10 on one of the brakes.
Failing that, the nose gear might swivel a tad upon retraction and remodel the nosegear doors a tad:hmm::hmm:

[Teddy Robinson]

correct me if I am wrong ... but unless a performance group A aircraft can leave the second segment by having the gear stowed, it's no longer a performance A aircraft.. fine with all engines working, then comes the day one stops.. unless there is specific performance data for gear down eng out it doesn't sound quite right to be locking the pins into the gearlegs !!

[Nubboy]

Contractor, please re-read my post and accept it for what it says.

It wasn't the steering by pass pin. It was the nose gear retract. It was from a tug driver who had moved the aircraft from one place to the departure stand before the flight crew boarded. It didn't have a flag. There were 3 pins on the flight deck. The nose leg would not retract. It was a VERY experienced colleague.

I thought my previous post was succint and unambiguous:ugh:

[BOAC]

Absolutely, Nubboy - the wise check the pin holes v e e r r r y y y carefully and do not rely on 'flags'.

[contractor25]

Nubboy,

The towcrew should not remove gearpins or install them, that's a techjob.

Only lockout pin should be installed/removed by towcrew. Most airports/airlines operate towcrews who do exactly that.
what would happen if the towcrew took it upon themselves to remove gearpins if the hydraulics are flat?

[BOAC]

"The towcrew should not remove gearpins or install them, that's a techjob.":D:D:D

[alternatelaw]

Hi,
Anybody heard about the Turkish 737 that had a tailstrike on T/O?
Rumour, from good sources, the training Captain was in Command and let an unqualified trainee pilot occupy the right seat and perform the Takeoff on a scheduled flight with the qualified F/O relegated to the the jump seat. Subsequently resulting in a tailstrike.

I wonder if Star Alliance would be happy if its true.
ALB
Alt

[Nubboy]

Contractor, my point exactly. Some tug drivers have been known to be impatient and "help out" . The pin in question was a rogue and traced to it's owner.

As BOAC put it so veeeerrrry very neatly. "A wise man checks the holes", not the pins. I was fortunate and became a little bit wiser due to my colleagues misfortune. I freely confess I would most likely have missed a non flagged pin on this particular type. The nose gear doors are virtually flush with the hole and require a specific look, so easy to miss, in the dark, on earlies, again, in the cold and wet, and you've already seen 3 pins in the flight deck check before you left the warm and dry.

I merely pass it on so other others might not get caught.

[JW411]

I am sure that TK have taken notice of your intention of never, ever flying with them again.

I very much doubt that the possible loss of your future business will have made the slightest difference to THY (or anyone else for that matter).

It certainly would not have made a single bit of difference to my life but please keep on thinking that you are hugely important to the airlines of the world.

[Green Guard]

and you must not use the FMS for predicting the fuel burn.

o really ?

unless you are still occupied by your "occupation", pls tell us why ignore FMS here ?

actuall GS and actuall FF shall be correct and true as much as every other day

[ad-astra]

GG

Not wanting to muddy the waters too much here, but the 737NG NNC for 'Landing Gear will not move up after Takeoff' specifies-

"Note: Do not use FMC fuel predictions"

That is before actioning any of the checklist items!

I suspect it may have some importance!

I know Airbus do things differently (or is it Boeing) but I would wager that there are some common areas where all pilots regardless of caste will come unstuck!

Perhaps LFF was not specific enough.

[Dave's brother]

Three pins isn't enough. Three flags isn't enough. NASA says so. :=

CALLBACK 232 (http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_232.htm)

[ravfooty]

o really ?

unless you are still occupied by your "occupation", pls tell us why ignore FMS here ?

actuall GS and actuall FF shall be correct and true as much as every other day

From FCOM 2.04.25:

LIMITATIONS
– Do not fly into expected icing conditions.
– Ditching with the landing gear down has not been demonstrated.
– Disregard FM fuel predictions. Other predictions should also be disregarded (altitude,
speed and time), except time predictions at waypoints when in cruise.
– Do not use managed speed (except in approach) and CLB and DES autopilot modes.
– ALTITUDE ALERT is not available.
– The APU must run during the whole flight. APU GEN must be available.

[Hussar 54]

TK seem to be having more than their fair share at the moment....

Colleague waiting in BRU today called a couple of hours ago to say he is delayed as one of their A340's had a pod-strike/scrape on landing this morning and pax are waiting for a replacement aircraft.

Too much growth too quickly ???

[Teddy Robinson]

dare I refer that remark to the recent threads on crew experience ? never say never, but fast track crew often learn the hard way (as does everyone involved in this business .. preferrably by reading what happenned to someone else and learning from it !!!)

[lcyboy]

Gear pins are wirelocked into position on gear down ferry flights with flags removed on 146/rj/ dash 8 s ,its stated in mel and amm, ive had to do it and certify it on quite a few occasions , i also seem to recall doing the same on 737-200. Performance limitations are given for flight crew too.

[Prober]

“Do not use FMS fuel predictions”. Quite simple, really - just don’t. However, it does not say that you cannot use the FMS for other information (be assured, if you could not, Mr Boeing most certainly would have said so). Therefore use what information you can get and make your own prediction – after all, most of us (even most Ppruners!) have some brains.
Prober

[alternatelaw]

It will happen, i say this from the inside!! watch this spaces.
Reason:
Lack of communication skill in all areas
Huge lack of English skills, ask any European controller
Lack of training, only box ticking
Lack of knowledge of systems
Huge man and boy attitude.
In some cases total disregard for checklists and SOP's

ALT