Engine Problems - Forced landing Video [Archive]

frontlefthamster

11th Oct 2010, 19:14

well done to the pilot!!! great skills

Sadly, perhaps, no.

Looks to me as though the forced landing was not well executed, the aircraft was too fast when the pilot polled it towards his chosen field, and he was left landing in his overshoot field.

Interesting that the AAIB report makes no mention of the execution of the forced landing. It would have been a simple matter to determine the facts, but the investigator either didn't know of the video or didn't bother to research it...

vee-tail-1

11th Oct 2010, 19:52

Well he kept his cool, avoided the mountains, and walked away from the wreckage. Seems OK to me. :)

Contacttower

11th Oct 2010, 19:58

Fantastic video, although I am quite puzzled about his choice of field. Surely wouldn't the main field next to the farm be better instead of attempting to limp over the wall?

I think that is what frontlefthamster was referring to, it appears that he initially was going for that field but was too fast and ended up having to go for the next one.

He got the aircraft on the ground though under control, in a level attitude and in a location that made a forced landing survivable...which in principle is all one ever has to do...certainly I wouldn't criticise his execution of it.

waldopepper42

11th Oct 2010, 20:12

He did enough in a very high stress situation to walk away unharmed from the aeroplane. Furthermore no-one else got hurt either.

That's good enough for me.

Y'know, it sometimes worries me that I'm not a professional pilot, not a skygod, just an ordinary amateur PPL.

One day, God forbid, if something goes wrong and I react in anything but the perfect way, and I pull off anything but the perfect landing in a field next to a pub, it will be my turn to get criticised, in public, in detail!

Have a heart guys!

Mark1234

11th Oct 2010, 20:37

True, the chances of any of us getting it 100% right are slim.. but on the other hand, it's worth being objective; no point in lauding the attempt and holding it up as an example *if* it wasn't particularly good one! As for the AAIB 'report', it isn't - it's just a pilot report to the AAIB.

Lots of questions though: How come the prop is windmilling if the engine is 'seized', did he attempt to lower the wheels, and did he clip the wall on the entry to the second field?

On a more philosophical note I was pondering: 20something miles away from a runway with zero oil pressure, do you a) climb, and hope you can get within gliding range before it all breaks, or b) decide you haven't got a hope, and attempt to make a more controlled field selection/landing with the aid of power.

dublinpilot

11th Oct 2010, 21:24

Mark1234,

The pilot involved (or possibly someone posing as him) posted on the flyer forum.

He explained that the engine seized and this broke the gear reduction gearbox, which allowed the prop to 'freewheel' windmill. ie, it was no longer connected to the engine via the gearbox.

Someone over there (perhaps the pilot, I've now forgotten) stated that it is a big no no in a Yak to drop the gear for a forced field landing. I think they stated that it posted too high a risk of the aircraft flipping over adn potential danger to the pilot because of the position of the cockpit. Field landings in a YAK are supposed to be gear up.

I've no idea how true either of these comments are...just passing them on, as they seem to tally with the video.

dp

douglas.lindsay

11th Oct 2010, 21:51

The gearbox break explains the windmilling - I was puzzled by that at first.

FWIW, I think the pilot did really well & I'm glad he's made the video available. After viewing it, I think I'd be heading for a field straight away - but that's only because I've been able to watch somebody else go through it.

It also makes me think that a FREDA check every 10 minutes probably isn't enough - need to at least scan the engine gauges every couple of mins I think.

Mark1234

11th Oct 2010, 22:05

Both the gearbox and leaving the wheels hidden make a lot of sense.. hadn't considered it would have a reduction drive, but I was wondering if it was a deliberate decision to leave the wheels, or if the wall had 'removed' them. Probably merit in leaving them hidden on most types unless you know the surface is 'good'.

Does prompt some thought tho. Not sure I'd post my efforts to be taken apart by us lot :)

Gertrude the Wombat

11th Oct 2010, 22:30

On a more philosophical note I was pondering: 20something miles away from a runway with zero oil pressure, do you ...
Would that depend at all on whether you know you've got zero oil pressure or you only know the oil pressure gauge us reading zero? Do oil pressure gauges ever fail? - shame to write off an aircraft and hurt the inhabitants for a gauge failure.

OK, the oil on the windscreen and the engine behaviour made it clear in due course in this case, but if it was, to start with at least, just a gauge indication?

Big Pistons Forever

12th Oct 2010, 01:47

This was a forced landing. The entire total criteria for success is "Did the pilot (and passengers if applicable) walk away ?" If the answer is yes than IMO you have fully accomplished the aim of the exercise.

Frontlefthampster. Have you executed a for real forced approach after a total engine failure ? If you have and you did better than this guy than I think it is appropriate to post critical comments regarding the handling skills of the YAK pilot.....If you have not been there than maybe you should think twice before posting......

Re the pilot decision making: He pointed the aircraft at what I believe was the nearest airport and alerted ATC. He modified his routing to keep the aircraft over landable terrrain and when the engine failed he set up the succesfull forced approach. I find it hard to see how he can have done much better

Re the gear up: Both the YAK and Nanchang pilot manuals specify a gear up landing because if the aircraft flips over the pilot will almost certainly be killed as the front cockpit is crushed into his head.

Bottom line: He kept his cool and flew the aircraft......a Good job in my opinion..... and yes I have personally experienced ( in a single engined aircraft) a total oil pressure loss which resulted in a forced approach.

frontlefthamster

12th Oct 2010, 06:30

Big Pistons, thank you for asking, yes I have. And as a glider pilot I've had my fair share of field landings too.

There are significantly different expectations here. On the very rare occasions I fly SEP these days, I do so with the firm intention that if the engine fails, I will endeavour to land the aircraft undamaged in a field from which it can later be flown. I fly very defensively, to achieve this aim. I don't fly low in SEPs, I don't fly over built-up areas, and I don't fly over unlandable terrain. I accept the chance that a field which looks fine from height may turn out not to be, and some damage may result, but any worse than that and I was in the wrong place...

I'm more critical here of hsuman's comment. If he thinks that the video shows 'great skills', then his expectations need to be re-datumed...

I presume that the pilot concerned permitted his video to be posted on the web. That makes him fair game for any open-forum critique that comes his way, in my opinion.

Mark1234, the AAIB can, should, and sometimes do, investigate these things properly. And then sometimes they don't...

Perhaps we've all forgotten that years ago, engine failures were routine. In some areas of sport aviation, they still are. If the early aviators had had the approach to engine failure discussed in other posts here ('walk away is OK'), there wouldn't be any vintage aircraft...

mrpinks

12th Oct 2010, 07:39

Have any of you experts criticising this gentleman actually carefully watched and listened to this video. He experienced oil pressure loss overhead Keswick in the Lake District. Mountain terrain, Carlisle airport 23 miles away. He rapidly and very calmly makes a series of decisions adjusts his plans and force lands in the very best place he can find. Look at the size of the fields as he comes up to them and the speed of approach. Look at the field he ends up in as he videos getting out and walking away, Flat, green then go back watch the clip again and look at the the terrain he had available for most of the clip. I would say outstanding decision making superbly handled from beginning to end and I would far rather fly with this gentleman than some of the experts present here. I might want to buy his mechanic some lockwire first though. (But he should have landed in that field not this one!-pathetic )
Dave

Mark1234

12th Oct 2010, 08:54

Would that depend at all on whether you know you've got zero oil pressure or you only know the oil pressure gauge us reading zero? Do oil pressure gauges ever fail? - shame to write off an aircraft and hurt the inhabitants for a gauge failure.

OK, the oil on the windscreen and the engine behaviour made it clear in due course in this case, but if it was, to start with at least, just a gauge indication?

Absolutely. Let's say there was also an oil temperature gauge - If that stayed put, i'd be inclined to believe the pressure gauge has failed, and act accordingly. I can see many resons for not attempting a 'controlled' landing before the engine fails, for instance it could go at a critical point when you have no options; It was a straight question - No irony nor asked to support a particular point of view, though I appreciate that's not always the case.

I'm afraid I'm with frontlefthamster however, Yes, he did a good job, all ended well, tough situation - I suspect a yak glides like a brick. Many things done well, and to be learned from/tucked away for future use, kudos to the guy. But that doesn't mean it's the perfect example, and that there aren't other things to be considered.

FullyFlapped

12th Oct 2010, 10:17

He walked away, so in my book he wins - well done as far as I'm concerned.

Also (although I think the Yak has quite a low power-off stall speed), it makes me very glad that I fly something with flaps !

FF :ok:

Contacttower

12th Oct 2010, 11:34

Perhaps we've all forgotten that years ago, engine failures were routine. In some areas of sport aviation, they still are. If the early aviators had had the approach to engine failure discussed in other posts here ('walk away is OK'), there wouldn't be any vintage aircraft...

There is some truth in that, although I very much doubt if every forced landing that happened in the day resulted in no damage to the aircraft. One was also often dealing with much lighter aircraft, which carried a lot less inertia and had fixed gear. I would like to think that if that had happened to me in Cub for example I could have got it down without much damage but that's very different I think from something bigger and heavier like a Yak 50.

Considering that he was correctly landing with the gear up the aircraft was always going to be badly damaged and the deceleration was inevitably pretty brutal as it dug into the ground. It's not clear from the video whether he actually strikes the wall or not but I doubt if doing anything differently would have changed the outcome much. I still think overall he did a pretty good job. :cool:

Dark Star

12th Oct 2010, 19:37

Having flown the YAK-50 myself I think the Pilot did very well and would also like to thank him for putting that video into the public domain. One can get instruction, read manuals and so on but to see a real situation unfold is very informative and thought provoking.

As mentioned above, standard procedure is to leave the gear up when making a forced landing to mitigate risk of nosing over. Looking at the video the aircraft did float a long way at the end. With the gear up there would have been less drag than normal, which could have been a factor. We dont get to practice that bit !.

J.A.F.O.

12th Oct 2010, 21:45

I'd like to echo what Dark Star said - thanks to the pilot for allowing the film to be used, it just might help one of us to walk away, too.

Also, I think (barring engine failures) I'd be happy to spend the rest of my days over the Lakes in a Yak, it's may years since I've flown up that way and I must get back up there as soon as I can.

Molesworth 1

13th Oct 2010, 14:03

It's not unfair criticism to point out that the aircraft was too high for the chosen field - it's just obvious and something from which to learn. As it happened a safe landing was made in any case - and with lots of fields around that's hardly surprising.

Perhaps the pilot was afraid of undershooting the field- in which case he (?) would have hit the road.

Big Pistons Forever

13th Oct 2010, 17:22

The YAK has a power off glide ratio close to that of a greased brick...further worsened in this case by the enormous drag of the windmilling prop. I think it is instructive to look at how quickly the ground rushes up in the final part of the video. The video recording does not IMO give a true sense of how steep the descent was. The temptation is to unconciously raise the nose in these circumstances which is why so many for real forced approaches result in a stall/spin short of the field. A bit too fast is always better than a bit too slow in the last stages of a forced approach.

chris-h

13th Oct 2010, 21:15

Well done to that pilot, I hope if i was in the same situation id stay as calm and profesional as he did.. Oh and walk away from the scene with my video tape still in tact :)

FleetFlyer

14th Oct 2010, 14:45

Many thanks to the pilot who posted the video. Its obvious that your actions throughout are a lesson to all of us on the handling of an EF.

I used to live in the Lakes and know that had you continued to fly North to Carlisle, you would have had another 10+ miles of very uneven terrain to fly over with few choices of landing field anwhere near civilisation (ie emergency services access to you by road). The flexible planning approach, altering plans as better alternatives are decided upon is something that pilots should always be ready to do. I'm sure many other pilots would have continued to try to make Carlisle and killed themselves somewhere near Ullswater in the process.

Re the landing, it looks like it was stalled in from about 6-8 feet up. Given the choice, having slightly misjudged the approach and coming in a little hot, knowing that I would be going through a dry stone wall at possibly 50kts I may well have opted to do the same and stretch the glide over the top.