when should i file vfr flight plan?

[cessna310]

Hi,

When should/must i file vfr flight plan while flying in UK?What are the advantage?Do i need to open it after airborne?

regards

[Jan Olieslagers]

1) whenever planning to cross a national border
2) whenever planning to enter controlled airspace

Didn't they tell you in ground school?

The main advantage being you'll be legally OK. As was recently discussed in another thread, there seem little advantages to it in the UK, but if you have to then you have to.

[x933]

I believe it is also when you are crossing an FIR Boundary.

[Maoraigh1]

London to Scottish??

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Cessna310,

Jan has told you when you are required to submit a flight plan by law.

However, there are other situations in which, although perhaps not a legal requirement, submitting a flight plan is just a damn good idea.

These are when your cross-country route takes you, over potentially hazardous terrain, (such as the West Highlands of Scotland,) or across a wide stretch of water, (such as crossing from Liverpool to the Isle of Man). So that definitely includes various parts of the UK.

The reason for submitting a flight plan is so that in the event that you should go missing and no Mayday call is received, at least the authorities know you are missing, they know your route and your likely time of arrival at various points along that route, so that they can then initiate an emergency search and know where to start that search.

Broomstick.

[Genghis the Engineer]

And no, you don't need to do so when crossing from London to Scottish. You do however flying to the Island of Ireland.

G

[reportyourlevel]

Taken from the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1:

10.5 A pilot may file a flight plan for any flight.

10.6 A pilot is required to file a flight plan:
a) for all flights within controlled airspace, which are conducted in accordance with IFR;
b) for flights within Class C and D airspace conducted in accordance with VFR;
c) when he wishes to receive an ATAS (Class F airspace);
d) for all flights which will cross a UK international FIR boundary;
e) for any flight where the destination is more than 40 km from the aerodrome of departure and the aircraft’s maximum total weight authorised exceeds 5700 kg.

10.7 A pilot is advised to file a flight plan:
a) if his flight involves flying over the sea more than 10 miles from the UK coast or flying over sparsely populated areas where SAR operations would be difficult; or
b) if he intends to fly into an area in which SAR operations are in progress. The flight plan should include the expected times of entering and leaving the area and the details must also be passed to the parent ACC. The ACC is to notify the ARCC concerned.

[BossEyed]

There are flight plans and Flight Plans.

Submission of an ICAO FP ( eg CAA Form CA48) is legally required when crossing an International FIR boundary, as stated. The full submission is not necessary when entering Controlled Airspace - for example, entry into Class D is commonly achieved by gaining permission following an RT request.

[stickandrudderman]

Didn't they tell you in ground school?

That, Sir, is what's known as a counter-productive remark and not condusive to open discussion.

[Fuji Abound]

Depending on what you consider comprises the UK you are only required by law to file a FP when flying to Ireland and the CIs - that means no FP is required to or from Scotland, Wales, the I of W, the Scillies, or any of the other out lying islands.

There are possibly only two good reasons for filing when not required to do so by law.

1. In the event you do not arrive at your destination an overdue action will / should be initiated. There are some problems with the theory. Some FPs are lost - I have come back from Europe on a number of occasions and there has apparently been no record of my FP, but I know it was filed, not least because the tower at the departure airport confirmed the FP had been promulgated to them. By definition if VFR you may well deviate from your planned route. Therefore even though a FP was filed it might be difficult to find you in time. For most of the UK the chances are a Mayday (assuming you have time to get a MAyday away) will be heard. For all these reasons combined with some of us placing trusted in loved ones to initiate S and R if we are overdue after a long x-country most pilots dont bother.

2. You will often heard it said by filing a FP it gives you greater hope of securing VFR transits through class D airspace. Personally I can find no evidence this is true but there are a few that think otherwise. Even if it does improve your chances the improvement is marginal and therefore I would discount its worth.

Strictly you are required to file a FP if the flight will go beyond the UK's territorial waters so in theory even though it does not cross a FIR a flight to the middle of the north sea and back again might require a FP. I think that is correct anyway?

[cessna310]

Thanks to all.

[Bushfiva]

The quality of questions sometimes beggars belief

So you would prefer they weren't asked?

[Johnm]

Having recently completed an IR I can sympathise with the questionner. The course teaches almost nothing useful about operational aspects while boring you silly with stuff that might have been useful to the navigator in a York.

The missing bit alluded to in various posts is the concept of filing an airborne flight plan. That's what you do when you ask for a service from an ATSU and give the standard details in response to the ATCO's (or FISO's) request.

So if you anticipate chatting to ATSUs en route then a paper VFR flight plan is almost entirely pointless unless crossing FIR and/or country boundaries outside mainland Britain. If you plan to wander over Snowdonia none radio then you might be wise to file a paper or AFPEX plan in case it all goes horribly wrong.

[IO540]

OTOH if you "wonder" over Snowdonia, and crash, the FP will be of little use because you will be nowhere near your planned route ;)

The OP puts his location as N Hemisphere which could be more or less anywhere, so it is a fair question about the UK. I believe Kathmandu is in the N Hemisphere, for example.

[mad_jock]

I sympathise as well.

Its not really cover at all in pro training. Presumption you have an ops deptment doing that stuff?

Its is a mild PITA in the UK where as in the US its very easy to do via the telephone wx brief.

And as for west highlands of scotland I wouldn't bother unless your none radio. Just make sure you contact scottish info and tell them what your intentions are. And have the contact number to tell them you are on the ground if you land anywhere without a tower or you can't get them before you land.

I have tried to motivate myself to get students to do vfr flight plans but the fundemental fact that they are as much use as tits on a bull in the UK means I have failed.

Yes I admit they will tell the emergency services what your planned route is.

But will they even know you have a FP?
Have you stayed on your route?

I reckon if you speak to your local info service tell them what you are really doing with a decent ETA at destination it is better than a FP which disappears into cyberspace and most of the time never gets looked at.

[cessnapete]

Even filing IFR can seemingly be a bit hit and miss.
Recently filed IFR from Eire to Cambridge in a SE turbine. En route on airways at F170 I re- routed and received a new clearance to Fairoaks due Cambridge weather.
About an hour and a half after landing Fairoaks, I received a mobile call from the Distress/121.5 cell at Swanick asking if I was ok, as Cambridge had called them due my overdue /non-arrival there.
I assumed that an IFR plan would be closed on landing, but it seems if you divert your original destination is not advised by the ATC system.

[IO540]

it seems if you divert your original destination is not advised by the ATC system

I am really suprised that Eurocontrol doesn't do that.

The other week I diverted, on a flight from Sardinia, from the filed destination in France to one in the UK, and nothing happened.

My guess was that the French sent a message to the French airfield telling them to not expect me...

[BackPacker]

The full submission is not necessary when entering Controlled Airspace

That is a dangerous sweeping statement. There are several airfields in the Netherlands for instance which require that a flight plan is somehow in the system if you want to enter their CTR - even if it's just for crossing.

Didn't they tell you in ground school?

Actually, no, they didn't. They told me that each countries regulations were different and that the requirements for filing a flight plan differ from country to country. So you really have to look it up in the AIP of that country.

In general, yes, a flight plan is required for crossing a national border, for an IFR flight and for some classes of controlled airspace. But there are many, many exceptions to this.

For the UK, the definitive text can be found here:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-8358F0376E8FB13824E9539A5C289ABF/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/ENR/EG_ENR_1_10_en_2010-08-26.pdf

1.3 When to File a FPL
1.3.1 A FPL may be filed for any flight.
1.3.1.1 A FPL must be filed in the following circumstances:

All flights within Class A Airspace
All flights within any Controlled Airspace in IMC or at night (including those operating IFR under SVFR)
All flights within any Controlled Airspace, if the flight is to be conducted in accordance with IFR
All flights within Class B, C and D Controlled Airspace irrespective of weather conditions
Any flight from an aerodrome in the United Kingdom, being a flight whose destination is more than 40 km from the aerodrome of departure and the aircraft Maximum Total Weight Authorised exceeds 5700 kg
All flights to or from the United Kingdom which will cross the United Kingdom FIR Boundary
Any flight in Class F Airspace wishing to participate in the Air Traffic Advisory Service

1.3.2 It is advisable to file a VFR or IFR FPL if the flight involves flying:
(a) Over the sea, more than 10 nm from the UK coastline;
(b) over sparsely populated areas where Search and Rescue operations would be difficult;
(c) into an area in which search and rescue operations are in progress. The flight plan should include the expected times of
entering and leaving the area and the details must also be passed to the appropriate ACC. The ACC will notify Kinloss
ARCC.

[douglas.lindsay]

Jan's right that you have to file when you enter CAS, and Johnm is right that it can simply be filed over the radio for eg zone transits through class D.

However I had a chat with Glasgow ATC a couple of months back, after they installed their new electronic systems. The (very helpful) gent on the phone told me that, although they would do their best to accommodate a plan filed over the radio, it makes life a whole lot easier for them now if a GA pilot files a full plan.

I operate out of Prestwick, so keeping Glasgow sweet is rather important to me - they've been great in the past (never been denied a transit, were even happy to let me in for a low approach & go around on a busy evening during my night training). So I'll be filing from here on whenever I can...

Which brings me to a question ... how much notice is actually required for a full flight plan? I can't always be sure of the reg I'll be flying before I get to the FBO; what's the best course of action if I have to change plane at preflight time?

[mad_jock]

IFR

In theory its 30mins within your countrys FIR and 1 hour if its an international flight.

In practise if its submitted directly to Eurocontrol electronically it can be a matter of seconds.

I think the reg is one of the few things you can't put a change message through about. Sneaky suspicion you have to cancel and refile if you change the reg. Which is one of the reasons why most commercial flights use call signs so you can swap airframes about without having to muck about with the flight plans.

[bookworm]

About an hour and a half after landing Fairoaks, I received a mobile call from the Distress/121.5 cell at Swanick asking if I was ok, as Cambridge had called them due my overdue /non-arrival there.
I assumed that an IFR plan would be closed on landing, but it seems if you divert your original destination is not advised by the ATC system.

It's up to the ATS at the aerodrome you land at (or you, if there isn't one!) to send an ARRival message, telling the interested parties that you've arrived safely at a different airport than planned. Sometimes, they don't know, or forget, that it's a diversion. Better to prompt them.

[Fuji Abound]

In general, yes, a flight plan is required for crossing a national border, for an IFR flight and for some classes of controlled airspace


Backpacker

A FP is NOT required for an IFR flight OCAS in the UK.

I was not aware that a FP is required between some Schengen countries either.

[IO540]

AIUI a FP is always required when crossing borders.

[BossEyed]

The full submission is not necessary when entering Controlled Airspace
That is a dangerous sweeping statement.

BackPacker, you're quoting me, and it is not.

My response was to the question specifically asked:

When should/must i file vfr flight plan while flying in UK?

What is, or is not, required in The Netherlands is entirely irrelevant to his/her query.

A couple of other points:

douglas.lindsay's report that Glasgow have requested online FP filing for CAS transit is absolutely right - but this was reported by them (via NOTAM)as being a temporary measure only whilst new systems bed in. I don't think this has changed - has it? In any event, it is currently local to them only.

A number of people on this thread have mentioned that a FPL is useful if you go missing en-route. Yes, but all should be aware that overdue action will only be initiated in the UK if a "responsible person" triggers it. If you are flying to/from many (the majority) of the smaller fields and strips in the UK, that responsible person may need to be somebody you explicitly nominate and task with undertaking that the warning role. Unlike elsewhere in the World, overdue action may well NOT be triggered just because you are late, and you need to understand this if you intend to make use of a Flight Plan as SAR insurance.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Sorry - but this question from somebody with a frozen ATP and 1200 hours total time?
Is Euro training so poor that
a) this type of question really has to be asked and
b) more importantly seemingly not knowing where to go to find the answer without having to ask in the first place?
:ugh:

The quality of questions sometimes beggars belief.SoCal, it may sound like provincialism to you, looking on from a distance, but could you kindly replace "Euro training" by "UK training"?

Further comments restrained to avoid counter-productivity.

[cessnapete]

Thanks, didn't know that. I always assumed that having had a re-clearance from the Airways system they would inform your orginal FP destination.
Pete

[bookworm]

Thanks, didn't know that. I always assumed that having had a re-clearance from the Airways system they would inform your orginal FP destination.

I found out a few years ago when on a flight from Cambridge I'd diverted into Maastricht trying to get to Spa. Cambridge called me on my mobile, saying that Brussels was asking what had happened to me. I too found it a bit odd, as the diversion had required a reclearance from Brussels Control.

[codemonkey]

a couple of the above posts seem to contradict on the subject of entry to class D airspace. on one hand the letter of the regulations seems to require a flight plan for VFR flights "within class B, C & D airspace". on the other hand it's been suggested that clearances for this will be given in flight, no flight plan required. is there a difference between flight "within class D" and "through class D" or is this a situation where practise has actually diverged from the rules?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

is there a difference between flight "within class D" and "through class D" or is this a situation where practise has actually diverged from the rules?
No.

What you have missed is that "clearances given in flight" are, whether they look like them or not, flight plans.

[Genghis the Engineer]

And no, you don't need to do so when crossing from London to Scottish. You do however flying to the Island of Ireland.

G

Correction to this post - Republic of Ireland you need to file a flight plan, Northern Ireland you don't (but do need special branch clearance).

G

[douglas.lindsay]

douglas.lindsay's report that Glasgow have requested online FP filing for CAS transit is absolutely right - but this was reported by them (via NOTAM)as being a temporary measure

My information might be out of date. I'll try to confirm tomorrow and come back here with the updated story.

[douglas.lindsay]

douglas.lindsay's report that Glasgow have requested online FP filing for CAS transit is absolutely right - but this was reported by them (via NOTAM)as being a temporary measure
My information might be out of date. I'll try to confirm tomorrow and come back here with the updated story.
Spoke to Glasgow ATC today - they're still asking for a full FP if you want a zone transit.

[BossEyed]

Thanks for taking the trouble to enquire, Douglas. Did they indicate whether they now consider this to be a permanent standing request?

This thread (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63906), from Flyer, describes and discusses the situation as understood when this request first arose back in June.