Air India Near Death Incident

[jstars2]

Just been sent this by an old fiend and colleague from Air India days. Must say, I'm not surprised and glad I left some time ago. I know the personalities involved and I am certain of both the truthfulness and accuracy of the narrative.

I am writing this for two reasons:

1. To absolve myself of the professional duty to report an Incident. I feel it will do much more good to send this to you all than send it to Air India Management. They will just deny that it ever happened, accuse me of somehow exaggerating the event, or fire me for my insolence in bringing it up at all.

2. I also fear for my safety in country. Jail in India? Hospitalization? I don’t think so!


Recent Air India B777-200LR Flight, DEL - JFK.

It was late at night. 0025L. I was Second in Command (P-2: expats are never in command if there is an Indian commander present). We were very heavy weight and the temperature was hot. No Assumed Temperature thrust reduction was used and we requested RWY 29 for departure to avail ourselves of the extra ground run.

Takeoff was normal except for the fact that our lift-off speed was well above V2 and we had a low altitude “hold down” of 1,700’ (not even 1000’ above the airport elevation of 777 feet). The aircraft climbed rapidly as the nose was pulled to a higher than normal attitude to bleed off the extra airspeed and the autopilot was engaged rapidly after takeoff at approximately 200’ AGL.

The aircraft automation captured the altitude set in the Altitude Window immediately and started the automatic level off maneuver. Since the throttles were at a high power setting (no Assumed Temperature setting) and since the flaps were still set at 15 from takeoff, the aircraft Autothrottles retarded the engine power to idle to protect against flap overspeed (I think it was trying to limit the speed to below 230 knots).

At the same time that the throttles were retarding to idle, Air Traffic Control (ATC) directed a large left hand turn followed shortly thereafter with a separate radio call directing us to climb to 2800’ (only a 1,100’ foot change in altitude). The First Officer was preoccupied with the radio calls and missed the next crucial event.

Just prior to beginning the turn the Captain disconnected the Autothrottles because he didn’t know why they had reduced the thrust to idle. He thought they were malfuntioning. He then commenced the turn with the Heading Select knob as directed by ATC and forgot about the throttles being at idle. The airspeed continued to bleed off.

When the next altitude change was given by ATC, it was dialled in by the First Officer (while the aircraft was in a turn) even though the autopilot was engaged and this Mode Control Panel (MCP) change should have been executed by the Captain (the Pilot Flying). At this point I am not sure if Flt Level Change was selected or if it was still in VNAV, but the aircraft began a climb while still in the turn.

I was preoccupied with watching the airspeed which was rapidly decreasing. I was sitting in the left jump seat (located just between the Captain and First Officer) and started announcing loudly “Airspeed!”, “Airspeed!” as the speed decreased below 200 knots. When there was no appropriate response and as the airspeed decreased below V2 I yelled as loud as I could “Lower the Nose!” “Maximum Power!”, “Maximum Power!” I undid my seat belt and was leaning forward to push the throttles to the firewall when the Commander beat me to it and fire-walled the throttles as he disconnected the autopilot and lowered the nose of the aircraft. The First Officer had placed her hand behind the throttles as they were moved forward but did not touch them. TOGA was NOT pushed. We were at V2 minus 15 knots and the stick shaker had activated along with stall buffet onset by the time the engines spooled.

We were in an undeveloped, (but rapidly developing) heavyweight takeoff stall. Had it been one more nanosecond, we would have been way too far behind the power curve to recover. There was no altitude to exchange for airspeed. The aircraft’s 110,000 lb. thrust engines spooled to full power and thankfully we accelerated (slowly at first) to a safe airspeed.

The flaps were oversped during the recovery (since there was no Autothrottle protection). The flaps were retracted by the Captain during the recovery (NOT by the First Officer). The First Officer called for “Autothrottles” and they were reengaged. The throttles went from maximum thrust to climb power as expected. Another altitude change was given and we continued the climb to cruise altitude in VNAV.


Some lessons:

a. Brief a low altitude hold down and how you are going to accomplish it - especially if you have a new First Officer in the right seat. Low altitude hold-downs are often screwed up. This was almost fatal! I like to hand fly hold-downs and let the First Officer use the airspeed bug for acceleration. That means the First Officer has to be able to operate the MCP along with the radios.

b. ‘Autopilot – ON’ with ‘Auto Throttles – OFF’ = bad Juju!

c. Autopilot ON at 200’ AGL after EVERY takeoff on EVERY flight = no pilot proficiency.

d. First Officer changing the Altitude Window or any other item on the MCP when the autopilot is on and changes are supposed to be Pilot Flying responsibility = more bad Juju.

e. Once this crew was out of their normal ‘habit pattern’ they were lost as to what to do about regaining control of the aircraft. MAINTAIN AIRCRAFT CONTROL

f. Air India needs more experienced ex-pats to avoid future fatalities.

The dilemma:

a. I told the Commander it was his obligation to report the event. He almost killed 300 people. What is my obligation to report this? If I report, I am fired for sure – or found dead in my hotel room in Delhi. I am sure he is politically well connected.

b. I think the ‘voice recorder’ data is gone. It was a 15+ hour flight. I don’t know how long the flight recorder data stays in the system. It would have the most information regarding this event.

c. I do not know if the aircraft reports the event automatically by ACARS or other means.

[PJ2]

jstars2;

Can you ask your friend:

Does Air India maintain and use a flight data analysis program on the B777 fleet or any fleet?

Does Air India maintain a system of Air Safety Reports which can provide for anonymous input if so desired?

Does Air India have a Safety Reporting Policy which holds harmless anyone who experiences an incident and self-reports?

Does Air India practise SMS?

Is the fear of being fired or of "death in a hotel room" for reporting a serious incident a distinct possibility at Air India which one must guard him/herself against?

These are standard approaches to flight safety that are in place at most major carriers. Flight data analysis programs are used to examine this very kind of event.

I am well aware of the criticisms of some aspects of aviation in India and that cultural issues can be a factor in CRM and open safety reporting but none of this negates the requirement to have in place these minimum safety tools.

PJ2

[fesmokie]

Sounds like the Captain should have been found in the Hotel Room :E It's quite sad that it took an observer or a jumpseater to save the day. After all that's the job of the Captain.

Another reason to have Professional Flight Engineers, :ok:

[fullforward]

Should that ended up on a big smoking hole the Times Of India headline news would include "...another tragedy caused by an expat captain..." :ugh:

[Nikon744]

Notwithstanding, of course, the stupid low first stop altitude in the first place. Another example of daft Indian ATC procedures.

Well done for reporting on this forum though. It clearly would not get reported by that corrupt country's authorities.

[Phantom Driver]

I like to hand fly hold-downs and let the First Officer use the airspeed bug for acceleration. That means the First Officer has to be able to operate the MCP along with the radios.

b. ‘Autopilot – ON’ with ‘Auto Throttles – OFF’ = bad Juju!

c. Autopilot ON at 200’ AGL after EVERY takeoff on EVERY flight = no pilot proficiency.

d. First Officer changing the Altitude Window or any other item on the MCP when the autopilot is on and changes are supposed to be Pilot Flying responsibility = more bad Juju.


Seems like some contradictions in your "wish list" here; there is a time and place for manual flying (discussed ad nauseam on this forum). A better understanding/appreciation of automation might have prevented this near catastrophe. 777 is a great airplane, but there are lots of things waiting to bite you.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Jesus christ.....

Not sure what else to say to this really. Is India really that bad in terms of corruption and lack of any CRM?

I'm amazed that as a flag carrier there's no incident reporting system that can be used without fear of finding a razor blade in your Bhuna!

Frightening and sad that in this day and age we're not beyond situations that could so easily have turned into a very large smoking hole.

Very well done for the expat guy jumping in though. Shame the other 2 muppets in the front seats needed prompting to firewall the throttles when the airspeed bled below 200kts in the turn. :ugh:

[INNflight]

...but it seems that the Autopilot Cowboys just won't learn. Same goes for the incident in Ireland with the Indian G-IV (V?) who were too busy following lines and playing with the FMS to notice they were just about to fly into terrain - thank God for the alert ATCO.

FLY the aircraft, deal with anything else later. No f^~$&% use of being on the right heading with the right autopilot setting when you hit the ground is there?

Sadly there's pilots out there who see raw data / FD AP-off flying as something unnecessary - but then again most airlines don't really recommend aviating anymore do they. :ugh:

I for one will continue to fly raw-data departures and arrivals as often as possible, because I am certain it will save my butt one unfortunate day. :yuk:

[kbrockman]

Well this would have been where the Bus might have been more useful than the Boeing , Alpha floor would have been nice to have in these circumstances.

Still pretty poor piloting though, lucky your friend was there.

[fullforward]

Sorry for disagree with you: decades of research and advance on electronic/software/systems have proven that the automatic devices we have on modern aircraft have been much more saving buts than burning them.

The fact that a poorly trained crew that don't understand the basics of the aircraft systems they are operating cannot be used to validate the argument that technology is in any way 'bad'.

This was a gross and unnaceptable lack of basic airmanship. The pilot who did this report lost a golden chance to get things on track if he requested FAA (he could do that in conditions of annonimity) do download the CVR upon landing at JFK. Lots of eyebrows will be rising and maybe some corrective measures would be taken more quickly and effectively.

May I humbly suggest you to use the automatic devices of your ship AT THE MAXIMUM extent. They are there to help you, and will much more likely save your day than burn your butt.


KBROCKMAN: OH NO!:eek: You will spare us of another BORING Abs x Boeing thread, for God sake!

[kbrockman]

KBROCKMAN: OH NO! You will spare us of another BORING Abs x Boeing thread, for God sake!

Okay, maybe that remark was not really contributing much to this thread but that was the first thing that went through my mind, but you're right this has more to do with poor airmanship ,and also poor communication in the cockpit.
Also some pretty weird ATC demands ,1700ft MSL at a 777ft Airport with a plane close to or at MTOW on a hot day , what's up with that ?
That's only a little over 500 ft above second segment climb, talk about unnecessary flight-deck stress.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

flaps were oversped during the recovery (since there was no Autothrottle protection).

Are you sure?

[fullforward]

"Also some pretty weird ATC demands ,1700ft MSL at a 777ft Airport with a plane close to or at MTOW on a hot day , what's up with that ?
That's only a little over 500 ft above second segment climb, talk about unnecessary flight-deck stress."

Fully agree.

[d105]

remarks: - I understand this person is a 777 commander since he states he is second in command. However he has not the common sense to pull the CVR breaker so it halts recording and maintains the incident recording. - This commander does not know if his aircraft is fitted with OFDM. - This crew reduced thrust on their aircraft, while configured with flaps, to IDLE while below 1000 ft. AGL. with automation engaged. - The flight was continued to JFK while all crew were aware that their aircraft went out of the flight envelope during takeoff with possible inherent structural damage due to a flap overspeed. While I have heard of difference in standards between EU/USA/AUS carriers and the rest, this is beyond me...

[p51guy]

Innflight is correct. Expecting automation to be better than handflying is not what a pilot should be. The pilot should be better than automation. A pilot has the ability to use judgement on what is happening at the moment. He can annalyze what is a possible problem on his approach such as windwhear and other factors. I always assume an autoland approach will throw me the airplane in a bank and have me recover at low altitude as it has happened to me and I have to recover. Human intervention fixed it.

[fullforward]

105

"The flight was continued to JFK while all crew were aware that their aircraft went out of the flight envelope during takeoff with possible inherent structural damage due to a flap overspeed. While I have heard of difference in standards between EU/USA/AUS carriers and the rest, this is beyond me...".

It's very likely a status/eicas msg woul be triggered and the operating crew would notice it.
Regarding a damage due to flap overspeed again if real it would trigger a warning and a very clear eicas message. A proper checklist would call for immediate actions.
A CVR download by the FAA at JFK would be very effective.

P51

Mate: there's probably thousands of lines here debating hand flight x automation. I don't know your backgrounds, but there's a lot of wrong assumptions on your statements. Do you have a built in windshear predictions device? Or have you ever tried a CAT II or CAT III approach on a windy and rainny night?
The botom line is: it's SAFER to operate a modern aircraft using the automatic features as we can manage more effectively our flight. On the other hand, it's our job to constantly monitor them and if it screw up immediately take over!
Furthermore, it's against of the SOPs on majority of the airlines to go manual at will. Though I think is a good idea, from time to time, to turn off all automation on a clear day, low traffic and go as a Cessna 150.
We need to be proficient both on managing the electronics and flying by the seat of the pants.

[d105]

I am not familiar with the 777 so I'm relating the incident to my own aircraft (737)

[bleeds off]

I have a few questions for my general culture (I'm a TP driver and have never used autothrottle):

1.
The automation reduced the power to idle so as not to exceed the max flaps speed.
They were levelled at 1700ft.
In this particular situation and without human intervention, what speed would the automation have flown ? and is there a way for the PF to know or see that speed somewhere so as to be sure it is safe ?

2.
On this type of a/c is it normally an acceptable reflex to disconnect only the autothrottles while keeping autopilot engaged like he did. That sounds a bit odd to me from the persepective of a pilot needing to actually feel what's his a/c doin', specially while suspecting that somthing's wrong at such a low altitude... just a thought...

thanx

[PJ2]

bleeds off;
The automation reduced the power to idle so as not to exceed the max flaps speed.
While the "report" mentions the possibility, the B777 autothrust does not reduce to prevent "overspeed" of the flaps - in fact no transport's autothrust I have flown does this. There is a load relief function which will accomplish this however. Autothrust is targeted for the FMS or selected speed. On the Airbus, (and I agree, it is a waste of bandwidth to turn this into an A vs B commentary), but the autothrust also targets "over and underspeed" flight circumstances.
On this type of a/c is it normally an acceptable reflex to disconnect only the autothrottles while keeping autopilot engaged like he did. Although not actually stated in any FCOM/AOM I've used, it is nevertheless a serious operational error to disconnect the autothrust and leave the autopilot engaged. The reverse, (autopilot disengaged, autothrust engaged) is normal. Notwithstanding the poor navigation constraints on the departure, they are no excuse for not handling the aircraft correctly - the takeoff briefing should cover this and make expectations clear to everyone on the deck before the thrust levers are advanced.

Lot of folks setting their hair on fire here but we still have no information on the questions I asked at the start of the thread regarding the safety processes which are in place and used at Air India.

PJ2

[faheel]

ACARS would have captured this for sure,certainly in my airline anyway.

In an IDEAL world he should have dumped fuel and gone back if he thought there was damage to the flaps,but he was not in command.

Anyway he is sharing information here and I can tell you things happen VERY rapidly when you have a low altitude level off followed by a turn and I am not going to criticise him on this forum,just learn from it.

I am about to retire from my present airline and briefly flirted with the idea of flying for AI for a year or two now I am glad I did not,too old to have to deal with an operation like this.

[bleeds off]

cheers for that PJ2 :ok:

Would have been interesting to know what actually was the automation target speed during that early level off and what exactly made the capt doubt about the validity of the autothrottle reaction.

[PJ2]

faheel;

For my part I fully comprehend the rapidity with which these operations can occur. That's why the departure briefing is critical and the full use of the automation is required. I gave up hand-flying London departures years ago simply because the autoflight system did it better and more accurately. There is a time for manual flight and departing Heathrow is most definitely not one of them. While not quite the silliness of the DEL SID, the Compton departure off 23R often levels at 6000ft - a trap for young players or a crew that isn't on top of the game as that is also the transition altitude and one must remember to set standard pressure immediately upon being cleared higher. It can be even much busier elsewhere and I know you'll have experienced exactly that.

The fact that this pilot is having to resort to sharing information here on an anonymous aviation forum is not good, it is shameful and a condemnation of Air India's flight safety system and operational culture. I still have no responses to the questions I have asked and that, at this stage of the thread where it is certain that people in the know would have the answers but haven't said anything, is revealing.

PJ2

[Intruder]

While the "report" mentions the possibility, the B777 autothrust does not reduce to prevent "overspeed" of the flaps - in fact no transport's autothrust I have flown does this. There is a load relief function which will accomplish this however. Autothrust is targeted for the FMS or selected speed. On the Airbus, (and I agree, it is a waste of bandwidth to turn this into an A vs B commentary), but the autothrust also targets "over and underspeed" flight circumstances.
The 744, in normal takeoff/climb modes, will prevent flap overspeed. Normally TO/GA is the selected pitch and autothrottle mode, and V2 is set in the MCP. When the autopilot/FD transitions from TO/GA to VNAV, the MCP speed window closes, and speed is controlled by pitch (either by the autopilot if engaged, or manually following guidance from the Flight Director). The current flap limit speed is set by the FMS as the limit speed, so flap overspeed protection IS provided.

HOWEVER, I have no experience in using the autopilot with such a low level-off altitude. I do not know for sure how well the 744 would handle it, so I tend to fly those manually at least until the airplane is stable at the level-off altitude. There are those in the 744 community who would recommend going directly to FLCH after 400' AGL in similar situations -- especially if VNAV ALT was not captured) to reduce the rate of climb and ensure the Autopilot/FD and autothrottles exit TO/GA. I would not disagree with that technique.

Frankly, in that situation the flap limit speed would be among the LEAST of my worries. Keeping above V2 and VERY close to the target altitude would be my primary concerns. ACARS WOULD immediately report the flap overspeed.

A couple hundred people were VERY lucky that there was a 3rd pair of eyes AND a 3rd brain at work on this flight.

In the US we at least have the NASA ASRS reporting program to use without fear of retribution. Many airlines have the ASAP program as well, but it's not confidential like ASRS is. It's too bad the situation is so bad over there in India...

[PJ2]

The current flap limit speed is set by the FMS as the limit speed, so flap overspeed protection IS provided.Thank you Intruder. Am I correct in understanding that the autothrust does not "see", on its own, the flap limiting speeds and will exceed flap speeds should the constraints not be in the FMS. I suspect that in FLCH, the flap speed would be exceeded, or do I have this wrong? The situation you describe is a good one, (Flap speeds in the FMS), however, I suspect the speed is controlled by pitch, not thrust, (which can be a problem in such an early capture) in terms of aircraft stability.

Such an early capture brings up another latent problem: The "Alt*" (altitude capture) characteristic, which, while first demonstrated tragically by the A330 at Toulouse, applies equally to Boeing. I wonder if this is what occurred here?

It depends upon how much the flap speed was exceeded by and what flap setting was out. I suspect more than a few here have exceeded flap speeds by a few knots for a few seconds. While not good for the slats/flaps and mainly for the flap support structure, a catastrophic failure of the flap system is not normally the result. In other words, such infrequent excursions aren't likely to damage them and in my view such an excursion wouldn't necessarily result in a decision to dump fuel and return to the airport. However, only the on-board crew can make that call, especially if the overspeed was substantial or for an extended period of time.

Anyway, all this is beside the point and off-topic. The main point here is very clear to all - a possible loss-of-control almost-certainly fatal accident avoided due to quick thinking. Now what?

PJ2

[Huck]

While I now fly the 777 and am in awe of the control/thrust/autopilot systems, this crew did something a DC-8 or B-727 crew would never had done.

They didn't control airspeed. Plain and simple. It's happening with increasing frequency these days - as our MD-10 in the high holding pattern showed a few years ago.

Open the speed edit box, set it at 200 knots, let the damn thing stabilize, see what you can do about cleaning up. Fly the damn airplane.

[BOAC]

A salutory tale.

It seems we are off on a few incorrect tangents, however?

1) Reading 'Lesson f' suggests the Captain was not an ex-pat, so some of the comments here may not be applicable

2) It does indeed sound like the 'alt*' event which I know from the 737 well. A low-level level off is by no means unusual and needs to be carefully briefed due to this. It can be common in Tel Aviv. It is easily handled as a crew.

3) The 'CVR download' in JFK would be a waste of time unless our poster had pulled the CB which would, it seems, have been a death sentence.

4) The intitial reaction of the Captain in disconnecting the A/T is understandable but not excusable. The Captain should have expected, briefed and known what would happen. It is "Lesson 1" in how to deal with automation - if it appears to be malfunctioning turn it off and revert to basic flying skills The latter part did not happen.

The demonstrable existence of such fear of reporting is of serous concern. Surely an FDR would be fitted and that could have been downloaded? If we are in yet another 'culture/status' driven area of operations then some international body needs to wake up.

[Three Wire]

What actually happened here is that the AFDS captured the low leveloff very early (evidence FMA VNAV ALT). The AFDS sub-mode (not displayed on modern Boeings or Airbusses) is V/S. In this sub-mode the AFDS tries to follow a parabolic arc to level off at the captured altitude using pitch control. The A/THR has speed but is respecting only the low speed limit. VFE is ignored in this submode.
As suggested, the best way (but not the only way) to handle a low level off with automation is revert to FLCH. This puts the A/THR back in charge of the speed, not guarding it.
I too have been given the low level off at DEL. I rejected it and sat on the runway until I was given a more reasonable level off.
Like PJ2 I wonder about the SMS at AI.
:*

[BOAC]

3-wire - do not fly to Nice - you'd be there all day waiting on 04:ugh:

[INNflight]

I am not saying all automation is bad, quite the contrary, it is great to have, however it seems that a lot of crew simply slip 'out of the loop' accidently with the fixed mindset of letting the AP fly - especially near the ground.

What happened to hand flying to 10000ft, or at least the initial portion of the SID?

Maybe it's just me, but in a two-man flt deck there should be plenty of capacity for one the hand-fly and the other to run checklists and radios.

I am not saying people should hand-fly in crap weather conditions for the sake of it, but they should certainly be prepared to do so at any time. If both get preoccupied with checklists or the autopilot, none is monitoring the actual flying.

Think about it this way... we'd have probably read about this in the papers wouldn't it have been for the SIC on the jump. :ouch:

[Intruder]

What actually happened here is that the AFDS captured the low leveloff very early (evidence FMA VNAV ALT). The AFDS sub-mode (not displayed on modern Boeings or Airbusses) is V/S. In this sub-mode the AFDS tries to follow a parabolic arc to level off at the captured altitude using pitch control. The A/THR has speed but is respecting only the low speed limit. VFE is ignored in this submode.
You may be correct for the 777, but not for the 744, according to the books I have. VNAV ALT is a VNAV mode, not a V/S mode, and the autothrottles go to SPD mode when VNAV ALT is captured. Target speed would be MCP speed if the window is open, or FMS commanded speed (could be V2+10 or accelerating, depending on altitude) if the window is closed. The FMS still provides high- and low-speed protection when the MCP speed window is closed.


PJ2:

The autothrottles don't "see" anything on their own. They are controlled and limited by the FMC.

In FLCH the speed is controlled by the MCP window, since it opens automatically when FLCH is selected. IIRC, flap limit speeds are not honored when the MCP speed window is open.

[coco-nuts]

Few years back, i was on descent into Mumbai and cleared to 11000ft. Indian Airlines Airbus was cleared to climb to 9000. To cut the story short, he climbed through it and hell broke loose. Hard RA and we climbed out of the way. Whew!
I filed a report and rang the chief pilot, who begged me not to file the report. Something about having an ace up the sleeve, next time the authorities did an audit on the compay.
I resigned and had left India within the week!
When i left India, the number was up to 35 near misses a year. I sometimes wonder how many WERENT reported!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<the Compton departure off 23R often levels at 6000ft >>

Now there's a man who hasn't been to Heathrow for 50 years as 23R simply does not exist. "Often levels at 6000ft"?? If I recall correctly all except one of the the Heathrow SIDs level at 6000ft and that has been the case for donkeys years.

[B777Heavy]

Im gonna deviate abit....

ITS been a coupla years since i flew the big bird, but I vaguely remember that the B777 A/Ts are never really off...and at Vls(low speed) they kick in just enough to maintain speed at or slightly above Low speed Buffett irrespective of their posn ie off or armed....any to clarify?

[Gretchenfrage]

if it appears to be malfunctioning turn it off and revert to basic flying skills The latter part did not happen.

same applies to if you do no longer understand what it does. With all the automation and its submodes this happens faster and more often than we all like. The one pilot who pretends this has never happened or will never happen to him, due to his superior system knowledge is simply a liar.

Concerning reverting to basic skills, now there's a thing that scares me most. I've seen too much absence of such skills recently as to believe in coincidence.

We will never have automatics that are fool proof, we will never completely and continuously be aware of all modes and features of automation. We should, at least for the foreseeable future, still be able to revert to basics and reengage automatics once stabilised. This beeing neglected in basic and enhanced training, and thus lost forever, will lead to such incidents happen more often.

The perpetuous call for even more protections and automatics will always only cure some symptoms, but not aviations malaise -> lack of skill and experience.

[4Greens]

If the airline doesn't have Flight Data Analysis (FOQA) don't fly with it or on it.

[flybywired]

Having flown the 777 for the company involved I can believe something like this could have happened, however some things need clearing up in regard to 777 operations. After T/O after acceleration height, FMA changes from TOGA to THR REF/LNAV/VNAV SPD ie. A/Ts set reference thrust on the engines, LNAV captures and VNAV speed is maintained by pitch attitude through the A/P or F/D which at this point is 230 knots (flaps 5 speed minus 5 knots) this speed is indicated as the target airspeed above the ASI (speed window is closed). If at this point FLCH is selected, again THR REF and LNAV unchanged, and FLCH is engaged, speed window opens indicating a target airpseed of 250 knots (below 10,000') and A/P or F/D maintains airspeed throught pictch angle.
There is no need to hand fly low level hold downs, the A/P has logic to anticipate this in FLCH or VNAV, and in fact at heavy weights close to the ground automation makes sense (even more so in that part of the world where manual proficiency is not maintained).
The 777 does have low speed protection even with the A/Ts selected off, and they would have enagaged automatically to prevent speed decreasing to near Vs (which even at heavy weights would be closer to 100 knots than 200 knots with flaps 15 still set). When the aircraft was accelerated using manual thrust and still climbing in FLCH the A/P would have mainted 250 during the climb, and any overspped condition would have been prevented by the load relief system.
To suggest pulling a CVR CB at the begginng of a 15hr flight is probably not prudent, as anything could happen after this point that could need to be recorded (ie. incident on approach), and the FDR would record all the parameters and selections anyway.
A valuable lesson learned hopefully for the crew involved, and I would expect that someone would notify the airline so that they can prevent it happening again.

[RoyHudd]

Just a thought, but shouldn't the best and more experienced crews be those selected for operations such as B777 Delhi-JFK? The report suggests a combination of incompetence and inexperience in the front 2 seats of this particular near-disaster. With a consequent cover-up to boot.

I fear that nepotism over-rules ability-based qualification for "good" jobs in many countries like India and in many airlines similar to Air India. I am being direct and politically incorrect here, but am by no means having a pop at AI specifically. I just believe that the democratic systems in place in major US/North European/Antipodean carriers have little or no place for nepotism. Their safety records reflect this.

[411A]

"Often levels at 6000ft"?? If I recall correctly all except one of the the Heathrow SIDs level at 6000ft and that has been the case for donkeys years.
Yup, that is what I recall as well...and we normally did just that, nearly every time, hand flown did not present a particular problem....even the First Officer could do this quite well, so....what's the beef?

DEL, on the other hand, is obtuse in the extreme with ATC demands...expect the unexpected.
Par for the course.

[fox niner]

On a B777 you can not pull the CVR circuit breaker.

It is not located in the cockpit, the CB is in the electronics bay below the cockpit. You need to open a hatch in the floor at door 1L and don't forget to bring your portable oxygen when you go in there during flight.

Frankly I don't understand WHY the CVR CB is located THERE. beats me. Ask Boeing.

[GlueBall]

Furthermore, it's against of the SOPs on majority of the airlines to go manual at will.

The SOPs at most carriers are a guide for safe flight under normal circumstances and do not constrain common sense.

There are situations, as described in this low altitude level-off, in-a-turn, fast-moving scenario, where the automatics may not have been set properly, or for whatever reason may not deliver the required profile. A common mistake I have noticed by many new pilots is their obvious hesitation in disconnecting the automatics and going manual. Their first impulse is always an attempt to correct the flight profile with more automatics.

After the THY B738 stall and crash at AMS, Boeing has clearly stated: "When the automatic systems do not perform as expected, the PF should reduce the level of automation to ensure that proper control of the airplane is maintained. The PF should not attempt to restore higher levels of automation until after aircraft control is assured."

Practical reality suggests that pilots should not be trained to have an aversion of hand flying the machine at will. :ooh:

[Coireall]

"Alpha floor to protect against stupidity ???
Well this would have been where the Bus might have been more useful than the Boeing , Alpha floor would have been nice to have in these circumstances."
The B777 autothrottle will wake up provided the A/T arming switches are left in the ARM position.

[A37575]

Though I think is a good idea, from time to time, to turn off all automation on a clear day, low traffic and go as a Cessna 150.

Reading the above I swore I would not get involved in the never-ending debate between pilots and automatic pilot status monitors. Clear day - low traffic? Stone the bloody crows chum - are you that blindly dependant on the crutch of automation that you need a CAVOk condition to (shudder in fright) turn off the automatics and actually take control of the aeroplane and fly it.

Can't you see the obvious? It is because blind reliance on automation at all costs degrades pure airmanship and flying ability that these pilots are incompetent to seamlessly switch from automation to manual flying when the circumstances demand. And you say that even more automation is safer? I don't think so.

[A37575]

if it appears to be malfunctioning turn it off and revert to basic flying skills

Which few airline pilots seem to have nowadays judging by incidents and accidents over the past 20 years or so of superb automation systems...

[7x7]

Reading the above I swore I would not get involved in the never-ending debate between pilots and automatic pilot status monitors. Clear day - low traffic? Stone the bloody crows chum - are you that blindly dependant on the crutch of automation that you need a CAVOk condition to (shudder in fright) turn off the automatics and actually take control of the aeroplane and fly it.

Can't you see the obvious? It is because blind reliance on automation at all costs degrades pure airmanship and flying ability that these pilots are incompetent to seamlessly switch from automation to manual flying when the circumstances demand. And you say that even more automation is safer? I don't think so.There are major airlines out there, based not too far away from India, which have SOPS demanding that pilots use maximum levels of automation available at all times on the line. There are some among that airline's line pilots who do see the obvious you refer to, (and have said so), but not a one among the management who have brought in that rule (some years ago now).

[PENKO]

b. I think the ‘voice recorder’ data is gone. It was a 15+ hour flight. I don’t know how long the flight recorder data stays in the system. It would have the most information regarding this event.

c. I do not know if the aircraft reports the event automatically by ACARS or other means.

Maybe it's something I don't understand about non-Western airlines, but surely as a captain or a pilot for Air India, you would know if your flight information was recorded and downloaded by ACARS/datalink/QAR? Or is there no such thing in India?

[DozyWannabe]

There are major airlines out there, based not too far away from India, which have SOPS demanding that pilots use maximum levels of automation available at all times on the line.
Then there is a serious problem with those airlines. I don't know how many times one can repeat that automation was developed as a back-stop to allow flight crew to manage the flight more effectively - *not* as a substitute for airmanship period!

Even Bernard Ziegler in full flow never said "See? the aircraft is flying herself. Now you don't even have to monitor the instruments or maintain the situational awareness!".

Huck - 727 crews had serious problems with airspeed in the early days of the type. In that situation, had the monitoring come unglued as it appeared to here, the 727 would have ended up a smoking hole in the ground as the engines would not have been able to produce the required thrust in time.

[leftseatview]

this "story" doesnt ring true...at least in as far as the projected consequences of reporting said "incident"
Delhi elevation is 777' and the lowest level that is cleared after Take-Off is 2600'.(ie 1900agl)
Though i drive the bus,i dont beleive the the 777 cant meet this requirement by simple use of the automation.
Assuming the crew made a complete hash of things(and 777 drivrers seem to imply that the A/T would have saved the day even if it was off)their actions can be very easily verified by the DVDR(the CVR would not be the primary source of info)
Air India(and other indian operaters) are audited by IATA, and definatly have a FOCA prog.( 100% DVDR monitering and, definetly preserved if reported)
Both the airline and the regulator(DGCA) have annonomous reporting systems.
There has been no instance of any expat(or Indian national)being harmed as a result of reporting any incident.
This old friend of Jetstars2 sounds rather alarmist...with a rather crude agenda of promoting "manual" vs "automation" in flying as also the "expats" vs "indians" debate.
He might have reason to complain if he reported the matter and was ignored,but not to bother even an anonomous report and use this forum instead dosent exactly project good professionalism

[jstars2]

Just received email replies from India:

PJ2

Q. Does Air India maintain and use a flight data analysis program on the B777 fleet or any fleet?

A. Random sampling of QAR data takes place. Data link/ACARS real time download of engine/flight data is thought to be implemented but the resource to process fleet wide data is not available. Also of interest is that neither CPDLC or EFB is used on the B777 – separate issues but indicative, perhaps, of a particular corporate mindset.

Q. Does Air India maintain a system of Air Safety Reports which can provide for anonymous input if so desired?

A. There is one but not at all trusted as the established procedure is: identify culprit, rigorously interview, belittle, apportion full blame, excoriate, punish.

Q. Does Air India have a Safety Reporting Policy which holds harmless anyone who experiences an incident and self-reports?

A. You’re kidding, right? You’d then never have a suitable culprit to be punished

Q. Is the fear of being fired or of "death in a hotel room" for reporting a serious incident a distinct possibility at Air India which one must guard him/herself against?

A. Being fired at any time for a small transgression is a distinct possibility at Air India. Second point concerning "death in a hotel room" – anything can happen in India, especially in “Maximum City” (BOM).

Nikon744

Just before I left, nearly a year ago, I do recall insane low altitude clearances at DEL off new runway 29/11, despite there being perfectly reasonable SIDs published. My friends tell me these idiotic clearances continue and that the cover-up of this incident contributes to their continuance. From memory the easily flown published SID north/westbound off R/W11 calls for a right turn at altitude 1,700 feet, climbing to altitude 3,600 feet. Off R/W29 it is a left turn, heading 170 and climbing to, I think, FL60 (Transition 4,000 feet, MSA 2,600 feet). I will, of course, stand corrected, as memory is a tricky thing. The point is that I am told that these SIDs are still not in use as of this date and, hence, life is made a lot more difficult as a result (indeed, as events appear to have shown).

From information passed to me, the AI noise abate SOP out of DEL is to select Page 2 of Takeoff in the FMC and insert Accel Ht - 1,500 (altitude 2,277 feet) and Thrust Reduction - Flap1.

My information is that the Auto Throttle Arming Switches were turned off by the handling pilot (aircraft commander).

[TopTup]

For those of you WITHOUT experience of aviation in India, namely Air India...

Can't believe CRM is as bad as that? Trust me, it is and worse. "Commanders" render themselves God-like characters and FO's are submissive "yes men/women" who fear the Commander's wrath.

Not long after I left AI the latest 777 First Officer recruits had between 175-250 hrs total aeronautical experience. Yes. C152 one day, B777 the next. Twin training / knowledge? Don't make me laugh! Question asked of me from a B777 FO: "What exactly is V1?" (See other thread on the Sth E Asia forum on twin engine credentials many of the AI FO's do not have or need to gain employment via the illustrious DGCA and AI system).

Reporting system? Despicably corrupt and humiliating to witness the cheapness of safety, let alone life. For a long time they were fixated on heavy landings. True story: Expat Capt gives FO the landing. Automatic reporting indicated a heavy landing. Expat Capt called into Safety Dept to be abused, belittled, yelled at by between 2 and 4 "managers". "Who are you do 'give flying' to FO's!??

Some here question what they cannot believe because they are privileged to never experience such a disgrace as is AI. I saw Capts (not only FO's) unable to fly straight & level with AP and FD's off, let alone fly a raw data ILS with 15 kt xwind. They were passed / checked to line. When I failed someone for doing the same I was called into the Safety Dept and ordered to change the fail to a pass. I refused. I resigned. Said Capt was given a line flight to DXB soon after and checked to line by his "batch-mate".

That airline is a disgrace and if the ICAO, FAA or least of all the corrupt as all hell DGCA had any spine that airline would be grounded. They do not WANT to look for what those of us who experienced it saw and see day in and day out. Blood on their hands in my opinion.

Go back and read the thread on the Mangalore Crash again. Lessons leant?Hell no.

AI survives on luck, not safety, but for the remotely few truly professional airmen there (both local and expat).

[PJ2]

Heathrow Director,

Thanks for the correction. I can't believe I got it wrong after having done it for so long, but there it is, wrong. Memory is the second thing to go after retirement...

jstars2;

Thanks for getting back on my questions. On Q.3, no, I'm not kidding. Sometimes these things need saying even though we suspect what the answer will be. Your comments on flight data analysis and safety reporting don't surprise me at all.

PJ2

[fdr]

remarks: - I understand this person is a 777 commander since he states he is second in command. However he has not the common sense to pull the CVR breaker so it halts recording and maintains the incident recording. - d105

Before bitching about his knowledge, suggest you refer to the location of the CVR Cb on a B777, which is fully in compliance with the criteria of FAR25, CS25, in that it is remote to the flight deck.

[jstars2]

PJ2

Gets better. A few months back, another expat captain was riding as P2 (of a double crewed Ultra LH flight) on the jump seat for TO, on the daily Air India BOM-JFK (16+ hours flight). TOGA was selected to begin the TO run on R/W 27 but Auto Throttle (A/T) did not engage so instead of setting thrust manually, the commander as PF selected A/T on the MCP as he rolled down the runway. Only thing was, he inadvertently selected Autopilot, which duly engaged (the industry was going through a spate of these events at the time) and as both he and the 250 hour ace in the RH seat failed to check their FMAs, the Max AUW aircraft, with 112 tons of gas on board, now thundered down the runway with no means of rotating and hence getting safely airborne.

Expat captain had noticed the above events as they unfolded (easily done from the jump seat) and had started out conversationally pointing the situation out. On getting no response, his cries became louder (and shriller) to the effect that Autopilot should be disengaged until in the end, in mortal peril, he found himself shouting at the top of his voice to disengage the Autopilot and un-strapping to reach over and do the damned thing himself. Commander then seemed to wake up, hastily disengaged the Autopilot and snatch rotated near the end of the runway, narrowly avoiding smashing through the boundary fence as a flaming fireball, carving across the traffic choked main road and exploding amidst the dense residential housing beyond.

During the subsequent uneventful cruise, an extremely shaken expat captain eventually pointed out that an Incident Report had to be filed so that the airline and the industry could learn the lessons available but the commander remained evasive and non-committal, presumably not wishing to go through an upcoming Safety Department session of “identify culprit, rigorously interview, belittle, apportion full blame, excoriate, punish”. In the event no report was made but the expat captain reportedly made a confidential FAA/NASA submission back in the US.

I think that we can all draw our own conclusions on the current AI Safety philosophy.

[fdr]

JStars:

If your friend is able to avoid operating to India, I would think that he has two choices available.

1. Do nothing further, you have vented his complaint in this forum

or

2. Raise the matter with DGCA-I. I think without having the data to support your allegation that the authorities would not act further, and if they did a white wash would be in order form the DGCA and AI anyway.

Suggest he thoroughly enjoys life in a different location, and forgets the past.

As to the issues of a low alt level off, I have investigated at least one wide body accident where the events you indicate resulted in a hull loss. Interestingly, the manufacturer of that particular airframe modified the ATR logic about 9 months after the accident, to mitigate the effects of a capture of an altitude at a ROC of climb that exceeded the steady state energy available to the aircraft.

To the concerns in relation to safety programs, I would think that they are well founded. In my case, I reported a serious event to a major world leader in safety, to be personally threatened by their management. I departed and reported at the same time. In a later company, I reported as a foreigner a serious safety matter, which eventually was responded to as a serious matter by the management, but of course left subsequently. As a contract pilot, foreigner, Ferringhi/Gaijin/Weikukin etc, you ned to be prepared to move if your conscience and the law dictate that you report an issue. Wish the world was different. Equally, placing faith in the oversight and integrity of the safety institutions to retain confidentiality, or even to do their own legislated duty is potentially harmful to you as the reporter. In the first case, having had data for 120 days on relation to the event, and having analysed the same and come to the same conclusions on the risks, when questioned by their ministry as to any knowledge of such events the safety investigating agency replied "NO". Subsequently, having passed back the additional data of 8 further events in their own envelope (which remains sealed) they found "no events had occurred" which is at variance to the companies own findings of the time. Someday, that envelope, contents, and the audiotapes are going into the public domain...

Don't get me wrong, I believe in reporting, but I also would be surprised to find any organisation which doesn't take retributive action directly or indirectly to you for doing so. Relying on the integrity of the safety oversight institution is additionally questionable. At the end of the day, you have a duty of care to discharge, that will place you in conflict with the system frequently. Even the good ones. The final choice you have is to vote with your feet.

good luck.

PS: there is a large and growing group of people that have been treated this way by the systems, which stand in mute testimony to the stated code of conduct of the companies and the safety oversight institutions. IOSA audit and other compliance programs habitually ignore the evidence of inconsistency between policy and practice, or the failure to implement the same. It is not difficult to identify the discrepancy, yet it fails to be reported as a non compliance, so the rubber stamping continues.

FDR

[Rananim]

"Pilots" are a dying breed mark my words.Ironically,this FDM/QAR has quite a bit to do with it.Not only do SOPS prohibit manual flying but the pilots are afraid to operate manually in case the FDM lands them in trouble.I wont play the race card but I am quite certain that many pilots will kill everyone on board if automation fails/tricks them.Youd have to have been an expat to know this although its fair to say that automation-reliance infects the whole industry.I find it ironic that one of the first comments was to mention Airbus alpha floor NOT that the pilot didnt know how to fly his aircraft.Thats kinda like saying "Damn,we know pilots cant actually fly the thing-put more protection in instead of train the pilot".Like that Turkish crash..all that convoluted discussion about which radalt fed the AT computer and Boeing was a bad boy for not warning the pilot of subtle RA failure.My God,they even forced a company like Boeing to issue a reminder to all pilots about how important it is to monitor AS during approach.

So it doesnt surprise me..pilots in the true sense of the word are dying out rapidly and a new breed is taking over.One that can program the FMS,engage automation at 500' and sit back and watch.Trained monkeys.No joke,you could train a chimp to do same.Its trained and encouraged world-wide.FDM,actually a safety tool but being misused,enforces it.

Why would a Captain of big heavy metal accept an initial clearance of 1000' anyways?Relates to airmanship,another thing of bygone days.Today you have SOP's,blind automation reliance and big brother.Anyone wanting to be a pilot today must be nuts.

[Huck]

It's not like that everywhere.

We are required to keep up our hand-flying skills. And demonstrate them regularly. Our philosophy has swung back from the other side.

[FoxHunter]

Huck
It's not like that everywhere.

We are required to keep up our hand-flying skills. And demonstrate them regularly. Our philosophy has swung back from the other side.

And it was about time!!:ok:

[qsyenroute]

"Notwithstanding, of course, the stupid low first stop altitude in the first place. Another example of daft Indian ATC procedures"


Another example: Tripoli/Afriqiyah Airways, Airbus A330, fine technology aircraft low-tech ATC/Navigation infrastructure – result pointless deaths.

In this latest and similar incident - had Indian ATC benefited from decent equipment/training all of this high tech equipment could fly safely and it is intended to do so. The controller would or should not have to issue ludicrously unsafe clearances that compromise the safe operation of transport aircraft.

There is a huge disconnect in the ATM/Aviation system and so pointless. Pilots - you need to make this disconnect better known and/or refuse to accept dangerous departure clearances. The word to ATC is “unable”

[GlueBall]

"...thundered down the runway with no means of rotating and hence getting safely airborne."

Question from non 777 jock: Wouldn't pulling the stick override the engaged autopilot...? :confused:

[troff]

Glueball: Yes, the autopilot would disengage.

[jstars2]

Glueball

Very difficult to know if the PF could have been able to exert enough force to disengage the autopilot and then quickly reduce the applied force to make an acceptable rotation in the time/runway space available.

The expat P2 captain maintains that the takeoff would not have been possible without autopilot disconnection. He was very badly shocked by the event.

From the Wall Street Journal 17 March 2010:

By ANDY PASZTOR

Air-safety regulators are ordering U.S. airlines to install new software on Boeing 777s to keep the jetliners from possibly running off the end of runways, a mandate that could ultimately affect more than 800 planes world-wide.

In a safety directive released Tuesday, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered the fix to prevent problems when the autopilot system is inadvertently on while a Boeing 777 aircraft is rolling down the runway just before takeoff.

When pilots try to climb under such circumstances without realizing the autopilot is engaged, they encounter greater than usual resistance in raising the aircraft's nose. As a result, the FAA said, the pilots decide to halt the takeoff at a dangerously high speed.

The order comes in the wake of two Boeing 777 incidents in January in which pilots inadvertently engaged the autopilot before starting to take off. When the crews felt unusually strong resistance from their flight controls as they were trying to overcome the autopilot, they opted to stop at a speed that was too high for such a maneuver. Both planes remained on their runways, Boeing Co. said.

Since 1995, the FAA and Boeing have identified a total of nine similar incidents.

U.S. airlines operate nearly 150 Boeing 777s. Boeing and the FAA said that if, as expected, the agency's order is accepted by foreign regulators, it would affect more than 800 planes.

A Boeing spokeswoman said that since 1995, when the Boeing twin-engine 777 was introduced, the planes have made a total of 4.8 million flights without any injuries or accidents attributed to such autopilot issues.

The FAA's airworthiness directive also calls for other software changes to ensure that Boeing 777s can climb steeply enough to avoid obstacles if one engine fails on takeoff. The FAA said Boeing found during simulator testing that after some 777 takeoffs with only one engine operating, the plane could fail to climb steeply enough on autopilot during the initial phase of flight.

The FAA said that if the autopilots aren't modified, more takeoffs could be halted by pilots just as the front wheels of a Boeing 777 lift off the runway. It is particularly hard for pilots to slow down at that point.

The results include "possible overrun of the runway," the agency said.

Around the time of the January incidents, Boeing issued a service bulletin alerting airlines to install new autopilot software making it impossible for pilots to engage autopilots before takeoffs. Compliance with such bulletins is voluntary. Boeing called for the software changes to be completed within a year.

The FAA decided the matter was more urgent, and that it would require airlines to comply with its order within 90 days after it becomes final.

Corrections & Amplifications
An earlier version of this article inaccurately described a potential problem that could result if a Boeing 777's autopilot is inadvertently engaged during takeoff.

[BOAC]

We need to focus the complaint at the root cause. It is not THAT difficult to fly a low level off after take-off - more difficult than just plugging in the A/P at 400' and unfolding the 'Delhi Times', yes, but not THAT hard! Indeed, a way of life at Nice and sometimes Tel Aviv.

It is the way the crew appeared to have mis-handled the event that should be our concern. It is probably always going to happen at sometime in every pilot's life. Of course it is not ideal, but let's not blame ATC, eh?

[strella]

I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).

I doubt the accuracy of the above story.

[Capt Turbo]

I can only confirm that since we started ops on 29/11, the standard departure clearance has been "RWY heading to 1700`, turn left (right) to heading ... and climb to 2600`, further by radar." Despite being totally unimpressed by Indian ATC I have never heard of such a low level off. Could AI have misread the clearance (it comes late, of course).

"All aircraft: Maintain your current altitude and hold at present position"- Yes. "Increase your rate of descent (while below the G/S)" - Yes, but not "Climb and maintain 1700`in the turn", so something does not hold water....

As for the reporting system here: Veery goood on paper, for IOSA audits, for obtaining route permissions, not so good for "learning by (other´s) mistakes". My first (and only) report directly to DGCA - when I was very new to India - taught me it was the no-no way to do things in India. You report stuff to your closest superior, who will file it in the appropriate manner (vertically), and he will thank you for your contribution to Flight Safety. On a good day he will send out a memo to everybody saying that you will be severy punished if deviating from SOPs :ugh:.

FAA was right; it is ultimately the responsibility of DCGA to ensure a safe operation of Indian aircraft. By letting DGCA put wool in their eyes, even FAA guys have failed.

The fact remains that insisting on a First World flight safety standard or training standard would be the same as closing shop tomorrow in Indian civil aviation, and NOBODY -in India or abroad - is interested in that.
So keep your fingers crossed and NEVER lock the door behind you if you are out for a pee (the recent 22.000`plunge of AI may happen again):D.

[TopTup]

While none of us can categorically prove that the said clearance was or was not given it cannot be in the realms of "unbelievable" whenever we are discussing "Incredible India"! Pilots yelled at / abused by ATC, ATC being yelled at / abused by pilots are all part of the norm. Cracked me up every time I requested verification of a clearances due the uncomprehensionable RT from ATC......."I am telling you!!!!"

You doubting Thomas' still don't believe us, eh? See below:

ATC asks pilot to 'shut up', triggers mid-air spat (http://broadbandforum.in/humor/39016-atc-asks-pilot-shut-up/)

Recently (if my memory is correct) a Capt of an AIE aircraft told BOM SFC to "f$&k off!" when she was given a delayed slot clearance / expected taxi time. (See Sth East Asia forum for where I saw this.....)

Capt Turbo: expecting 1st World standards in aviation of a 3rd World airline entering 1st World airspace is not a desire, it is a necessity.

We keep making excuses for these fools of aviation. The body in charge (DGCA) is known by all to be as corrupt as all hell. Don't tell me the FAA, JAA or ICAO play Sergeant Schultz..."I know nothing! I see nothing! I hear nothing!"

So why did this event (supposedly) occur anyway? A complete lack of [Aircraft] Situational Awareness, flying skills and aircraft knowledge perhaps? Argue what you will about automation, who's manhood is bigger, but the fact remains that this goes on and the body responsible does nothing about it. [For the record, I believe it did happen. You can't have experienced Scair India and not find it all too plausible].

[highcirrus]

strella

In what precise way do you "doubt the accuracy of the above story"?

If you are suggesting that the whole thing has been made up by the expat captain involved, what on earth could be his possible motivation?

[ZimmerFly]

I think the supposition in your first paragraph is most likely. Similar misunderstandings have happened before.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Boeing%20737-800,%20TC-JGR%2011-07.pdf

[PJ2]

Capt Turbo;
Veery goood on paper, for IOSA audits
You mention an IOSA Audit. Can you, (or anyone) confirm that AI has passed an IOSA audit and when?

Thanks.

PJ2

[PT6A]

I have an internal report from Boeing, who flew with Air India to try and help them "'improve'"

I am more than happy to share it, I will just find a way of extracting the data from the report and post it on here.

In short, many safety issues were raised from the Boeing Factory pilots about the way Air India conducts it's operations.

PT6A

[EMIT]

Quote from Strella
I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).
I doubt the accuracy of the above story.

Quote from Capt Turbo
I can only confirm that since we started ops on 29/11, the standard departure clearance has been "RWY heading to 1700`, turn left (right) to heading ... and climb to 2600`, further by radar." Despite being totally unimpressed by Indian ATC I have never heard of such a low level off. Could AI have misread the clearance (it comes late, of course).


Strella - so perhaps the initial CLIMB clearance was to 2.600 ft, the 1.700 ft only being the passing through altitude at which to start the turn? Just as reading text can give so many surprisingly different interpretations, so can a piece of verbal instruction, as short as the line from Capt Turbo's post, conjure up different views as to what ATC expects the crew to do.

As to the reported, at 200 ft, engage autopilot, my gosh, don't pilots enjoy flying anymore?

[jstars2]

Turns out that the PF (aircraft commander) and First Officer interpreted the ATC Clearance such that they dialled in 1700 feet on the MCP before takeoff. Situation was exacerbated by the Air India SOP that precludes pre-selection of ATC Clearance heading with a requirement to takeoff with runway heading selected.

Satisfactory FAA audit of Air India completed in early 2010.

[casper63]

Top tub
I somehow have started enjoying your mad ranting about Indian aviation. Your dislike for Air India is all too obvious in your last 100 posts. Take my advice pick up a job, have a drink and move ON in life buddy or you will soon have a heart attack and again you will graciously give the credit to Indian aviation for it;)

[PJ2]

jstars2;
Satisfactory FAA audit of Air India completed in early 2010.
Thank you. That led me to do some research on the 'net.

IATA Safety Audit AI, 2006 (http://www.talkingtarmac.com/issues/airindia-safety.asp),
FAA Audit (http://avindia.********.com/2009/06/dgca-to-comply-with-icao-and-faas.html) June 2009,
FAA Audit 2 (http://avindia.********.com/2009/09/dgca-in-compliance-with-faas-safety.html) September 2009
FAA approves IOSA Audits (http://www.iata.org/pressroom/pr/Pages/2004-07-05-02.aspx)

I'm trying to square certain comments here with these recent reports. I'm not doubting comments on ATC as I've flown enough in India to have experienced their ATC's anomalies (and on-air arguments, one in which an aircraft argued that it was assigned its altitude first and wouldn't descend to avoid a traffic conflict - that "conflict" was us!). But I can't square characterizations which depict a horrendous safety culture at AI with some of the documents linked to above.

I'm not disputing some of the claims here regarding punishment for reporting a safety issue, absence of safety monitoring programs and the effects of corruption. There are logically only a couple of explanations in the accounting. So far, what I'm reading is an enigma.

PJ2

[Capt Turbo]

Oh, TopTup, the day you are made redundant because your airline cannot fly Asia (todays bread and butter routes) because the Asians are banned from coming to your home town.....THEN tell me about necessities. The last 30 or so years we have seen airspace being emptied when Pongo Airways arrives because they come from where we all want to go. Check out the Chinese and the RELTA test; did they have to conform?? Will the Great Indian National Flag Carrier be banned from EU/US regardless of their standards? Trop naive, mon ami!

PJ2; Having passed an IOSA audit in India is not the same as conforming,, so question not relevant, and you know it, surely....However, the 2 private international players are doing relatively OK out in the big world (and I didn´t say because of all the expats, KFR has only one left). I have done more take-overs with so called 1. world operators coming to ORD or JFK than with these guys coming to LHR (Hmm, credit to London ATC, maybe :ok:).

PT6A: The Frogs are just as concerned as the Boing Fac pilots, but once the salesmen have sold x billion dollars worth of hardware, you just hang in there and get the best out of it, `cause you cannot reverse the deal. A very competent factory TRE put his foot down while in India and he is now enjoying his grandchildren full time.

Sorry for the slight stray...Why do various AI crews mess up? Anything Gustav Baldauf can do about it??
T

[PJ2]

However, the 2 private international players are doing relatively OK out in the big worldAgree. I know pilots at both.
so question not relevant, and you know it, surelyYes, but like I said, sometimes the question needs asking out loud.A very competent factory TRE put his foot down...That's the key to staying alive. Too many today don't know what they don't know and so don't know when or how to put their foot down.

[TopTup]

Casper...Glad to be of entertainment to you! And granted that you are right in many aspects of "get over it" I suppose. But I will also admit to my fury and disgrace at the Mangalore accident. All the Swiss cheese slices were lined and some have the audacity to say "Who saw this coming?". And the first comment from the airline? "Blame the expat!" If the airline, the regulator and other world governing bodies did their jobs would lives have been lost? Moot point to some.....but I believe no. So yes, I do post often on this (AI) topic in an attempt to open peoples' eyes to what really goes on at that disgrace of an airline.

"Mad ranting"? Enjoy your next AI / AIE experience then and ignore me. What would I know? I only hope you are as lucky as you need to be.

Capt Turbo: what a stupid, stupid, dumb and irresponsible reply. So it is OK to have 175 hr pilots in the RHS of 777's who cannot hand fly an aircraft let alone appreciate V1 as he/she was never taught or the professionalism to self study, arrogant and rude Capts unable to interpret aircraft systems or raw data displays for basic situational awareness? In your eyes, those standards are OK because world trade and the lowest common denominator permits it? You claim to be an Airbus TRI / TRE. So you deem this standard as acceptable because it is the norm in such carriers as AI? I resigned (not redundant) as my conscience dictated, based on these standards. Do you (by some admission) cower down to them? No, airlines like AI and other such carriers are not banned. That is the problem and the disgrace. You however seem to think this is OK. You want to play politics with safety, standards and therefore people's lives.

Naive? Nah. Scared and horrified at the acceptance, or denial of what goes on? Definitely.

[sikalia]

We all know what is the right thing to do, regardless if some times we don;t do it.
ASR...

[Capt Fathom]

To the Hand-Fly vs Automation brigade...

It's all well and good standing up there on your high horse demanding pilots grow balls and hand-fly the plane!

The reality is, and has been said before, a vast majority of airlines insist on the use of automation as much as possible. It is written onto the manuals, and hence becomes company law.

If you decide one day to have a bit of a fly, and bust an altitude, or a limit etc., you have no come back!

With your position or career on the line, why would you risk it!

If you want to have a fly, much more fun in a lightie! ;)

[Huck]

a vast majority of airlines insist on the use of automation as much as possible.

Any source for that?

[kinteafrokunta]

Wow, double wow, quadruple wow! Only a super expat P2 saved the day, I am truly impressed!!! Makes a good hollywood story in the mould of Rambo but I don't think the bollywood people would want to make a film out of it.

[J.O.]

Just because it won't become a Bollywood movie doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Kalistan]

In a near death experience one sees quick flashes of one's past...I wonder if pent up yens for grandeur form part of those flashes.

[skywagondriver]

I have done many departures from Delhi. From RWY 29 the ATC normally does not give a SID. The normal clearance is always to climb to 2600 feet on QNH. Never , ever have I been given or heard from others any clearance lower than 2600( The MSA at VIDP).



Likewise...Don't claim to be an expert but have never had or heard any clearance to level at 1700'...

Both accounts have the 'hero' having to 'unstrap himself' to save the day and have the distinct whiff of Bombay Duck about them...

[DHC6to8]

Jstars2... thanks for sharing all this sad and scary info... I believe every word you wrote! I too have been subjected to such BS and dealdy culture before during my expat adventures... sadly, silence fell upon my reporting and I resigned after watching another check airman hang for releasing a local Commander who damaged a 767 during taxi out in JoBurg... the local bananas needed somebody to hang so they went after the expat check Commander who released the banana a year or so before the incident... I find the Indian culture is unable to apply any real SMS or CRM principles to good effect....
6to8

[p51guy]

It will never change so just get out out of there if you fly there and get on with your career where you can have a safe future.

[Capt Turbo]

Top Tup, I flew my single seater, supersonic jet with less hours than these 777 F/Os. Should I have stayed home?
I have done plenty of base flights on W/Bs with F/Os having less than 80 hours total stick time. Should I have refused?
The average TT of captains that I have terminated is well above 10.000 hrs. Should they have passed because they were so experienced?
I have pink slipped pilots from 1. world flag carriers. Was that wrong?

I do agree with you that the foundation for taking adequate decisions is lacking in India. It is too easy to buy a rating and call yourself "Captain", but there are actually guys and gals here who want to improve (far from all of them) but the entire system has abandoned them with a "monkey see, monkey do" culture. And since it seems you do not have much world aviation experience I can inform you that the "acceptable standard" areas of the world are few and far apart.
Have you refused to fly to the other areas because they were not of SYD or FRA standard? Why not? And did you forget to do your homework before coming to India?

Don´t you think the factory pilots report home about concerns and standards? That goes with the job, and as I read you, the factories should refuse selling to the 3rd world. So, have you approached Boing and Airbus with your valuable informations or are you just whining here on PPRUNE?

Although we are in total agreement on a lot of things, the difference between you and I is, that I am not putting my tail between the legs. Against all odds, I try to make a difference in India, China, Africa, S. America and all the other places that you want to eradicate from the aviation map. I may not succeed, and my job in on the line on a daily basis, but don´t call me an idiot..

The days when only BOAC and Pan Am could fly to Bongoland are over, my friend. We may not like that, but a lot of fellow pilots will.
T

[jstars2]

A recently received copy of the second broadcast email generated by the expat captain involved, soliciting advice from his colleagues:

I am still pondering the options. I have filed a NASA form here in the US to cover my license (even though I wasn’t flying). Is there something in the Air India SOP that requires me to submit anything? Since I was not at the controls I could not find any requirement.

I called the Indian Captain and told him to send me his version so that I know what is being said, just in case I get called (by AI Safety Dept). His version was believable. If they pull the data, he is going to jail with the story he sent me. No relation to the truth! There is no way I will support his version. I will just plead the Indian 5th Amendment and hope they go away. No way I can win any points in this one.


Interesting to note the scepticism of the armchair psychologists flushed out on this thread. Even Air India and DGCA know the incident happened. The problem (amongst many others) is that neither body will publicly admit the incident and set about the required root and branch change required of both organisations to prevent (as far as possible) future such incidents and possible accidents (many of which, I can assure all readers, are just itching to happen).

[TopTup]

The point of this incident and discussions seems lost to some.

It IS NOT that this said incident occurred, it is what has and continues to happen following it: nothing but lies and reports covered up, mishandled and forgotten about. The SYSTEM fails the pilots in training and traveling public. Some seem to believe that that is OK.

As a 777 TRE I took on a contract at AI. Granted I went in somewhat naive, believing that ICAO Cat 1 standards were just that. Sure, I can write an endless diatribe of stupidity & arrogance in the US or Europe where pilots & operators screwed up, but that type of culture was squashed if not immediately then very damn soon. Having a manhood contest on who's worked under the worst or lowest standards doesn't and should be something to be proud of.

Masquerading as a self-believing world leader in aviation (as all too many AI pilots and officials believe - yeah go figure. Evidence: personal word of mouth experience) covering up such on-going and cancerous issues is not only dangerous but criminally negligent in my opinion. I didn't turn tail, and to say so is a slur at the extreme. I left with my progressional integrity in tact by refusing to bow down to aggressive demands to pass a Capt whom I failed for being unable to land a 777 on raw data with 15 kt xwind - that was the final straw.

We all know that hours do not always constitute ability, but it is an indicator. I have flown with kids with 500 hrs whom were just amazing and a privilege to share a cockpit with, and others with 15000 hrs who should not be allowed to fly a kite. What Capt Turbo is missing here is THE SYSTEM at AI that develops, trains and continues to train its pilots. When experience through hours cannot be obtained it must be replaced by TRAINING. And, any experience bought to the table should be nurtured, moulded and improved upon. All evidence on this and other forums about AI points in ONE firm direction. It seems the majority of pilots with experience at AI believe the same. Asking if I would refuse to fly with a pilot of 80 hours is ridiculous! But, if what I see is not to standard then my hands are tied by the job I undertook. I will not cower down to a corrupt system and dangerous standard under the guise of "well it is what it is in these parts of the world."

For the record, official reports by me were submitted to AI, DGCA, FAA and emails swapped with Boeing. And what has the system done?

Whining on pprune? Pot calling who what? I was approached by some journos recently. I wanted to see what their real motivating factor was as to the evidence and experiences I had to offer and they wanted regarding AI. I told them separately I would consider offering my knowledge & evidence only if presented in the professional investigative reporting as per the Colgan Air Flt 3407 accident documentry. As predicted when the Mangalore crash was no longer of interest so too was the level of want to uncover the truth.

That's me signing off here. We're starting to get off the topic and onto "who's is bigger". I know what I witnessed, what I experienced and why I left that disgrace. Not saying my decision was the right one for everyone, but it was for me and my integrity.

[152wiseguy]

I'm with Capt Turbo on this one. I don't think packing up and leaving india is necessarily the answer to improving flight safety. There are possibly more risks to flying here but the conditions are not soooo challenging as people are making out. Maybe its different in Air India but in the private Indian carriers most people aim to do their jobs to the best of their ability and safety reports are dealt with though not necessarily as openly as in western companies.

I'd suggest to Jstars that his friend might not know if the captain of the flight in question has not already been called for tea and biscuits with someone in the safety department. It's not something that would likely be advertised to the whole company.

Anyways death in a hotel room is a wild exaggeration of the consequences of filing a safety report. Jstars, tell your friend to file the report using the normal company channels. Whatever flight safety department they have in Air India, good or bad, they cannot possibly do their job properly if people don't give them any info. Even if your job was on the line would you let that compromise your own standards?

I would just follow whatever procedure they have in place for stuff like this i.e. file the report same as I would have done in my previous company and leave the rest up to them. :ok:

[strella]

highcirrus, EMIT.

I am not doubting the entire story as such. It is only the accuracy of the points mentioned. Especially the point of being asked to level off at 1700 feet.

[JW411]

I did a contract in that neck of the woods 25 years ago. Most of us expats received death threats in writing at least once during our tenure.

When I took up the subject with the FOD, he told me that he received them on a daily basis. In fact, on three occasions, an empty coffin was delivered to his office!

As far as I am aware, all of us are still alive.

It's a way of life (which is very cheap) in that part of the planet. I was told by one of the locals that it was entirely possible and very easy to have someone removed for around $10.00 but that it "hardly ever happened"!

[Neptunus Rex]

S10.00! Strewth, at that price, a whip-round amongst the FOs would soon sort out the Seniority List.

[blaireau]

Cheaper by the dozen....

[Capt Turbo]

Thanks for you post 88, Top Tup, and my apologies for doubting that you actually DID something. You did! and that is exactly what Jstars friend should do, too. There is no doubt about it.

Jstar, if your friend really fear bodily harm if blowing the whistle, then he should get the hell out of here. The "eat or be eaten" mentality in India does not leave much room for trembling hands, so it is either fight or flight (coming from one, who occasionally gets fired - and later reinstated).
Just this morning my driver said "Here no tough, no life". I think I know what he meant despite my limited Hinglish.

As to the level off at 1700`. No reason to doubt it; just puzzling whether it was a misread clearance (with 3 in the cockpit??) or a freak ATC clearence. BTW, one of the other major airlines here have just introduced the procedure that at least 2 pilots shall hear and understand all ATC clearences. A small step for man, but......

Keep pushing the wall, please.
T

[fdr]

so when can anyone including the public, expect any regulatory body that has the duty of public safety entrusted to them, and the authority to take action, to wake up do their damn duty? :mad:

Frankly, for an industry with substantial oversight and regulatory resources at hand, precious little appears to be done. The SLF would be justified to be outraged with the state of the industry, where their safety has been marginalised to such an extent by apathy and indifference by the regulators.

DGCA, FAA, EASA, CAA, CASA, TC, and separately ICAO, IATA etc. etc. etc.:confused:


FDR

[protect essential]

This thread started out relating a situation that I believe develops many times every day in modern cockpits: automation switchology induced confusion, ie. the airplane is not doing what you expected or programed it to do. Can happen to any one of us at any time, regardless experience, ex-pat/local, airline, third world/western etc... The "golden arms" will say we should all be supermen in our knowledge and execution of automation in all flight senarios. That's not reality.

I submit that the solution is extremely simple; when your brain signals confusion, push the buttons on the yoke and on the thrust levers and make the airplane do what you want it to do. If the FD is further contributing to your and PM confusion and the PM is unsure about how to set up the MCP, call for FD off. Once your brain and the A/C is back in sync, turn the magic back on. It really is that simple.

Sadly, the administrative politics surrounding all this is not, but then that's not what I get paid to deal with.

[A37575]

A seamless rapid transfer from full automatics to full manual raw data flight is surely not beyond a competent captain or first officer? From what I read in Pprune and have personally observed in the simulator it seems that there are many pilots who lack that basic competency. Frightening, isn't it? And the SLF down the back haven't a clue which is probably just as well.

[leftseatview]

in the good old days this was a"normal" requirement.
Its amazing that over time it is now required to be brought in as a specific SOP as recomended by IOSA.

[GlueBall]

"The reality is, and has been said before, a vast majority of airlines insist on the use of automation as much as possible. It is written onto the manuals, and hence becomes company law. If you decide one day to have a bit of a fly, and bust an altitude, or a limit etc., you have no come back!"

...and YOU would have a "come back" if you could blame the automatics for busting your altitude...? :ooh:

[p51guy]

I have flown with many check airmen in my major airline that have while they are flying and I, as the FO, have to coach him through how to land manually when he screwed up all the automation. Another time I was doing a departure out of San Jose, Costa Rica when I was flying that I just ignored all his inputs and made a climbing right turn while he had me programed for a descending left turn. Automation is great when it works but don't blindly fly the FD when you know it is wrong. Another time out of LAX in a 767 he stayed in TO mode and busted the 2500 ft level off by 300 ft and was 300 kts when I said to reduce the throttle, lower the nose and all is well. Automation can help you or kill you, depending how far you let it go. Check Airmen don't fly the line much so get behind things easily. You can make any airliner made by Boeing into a 727 with two clicks.

[PJ2]

fdr;

SMS done as envisioned and conceived is better than the old enforcement and discipline approach by the regulator. However, because SMS hands over the responsibility for safety actions to the airlines, more specifically flight operations management, airlines, rather, operations people, treat this as the deregulation of flight safety and save costs where they can. Seen it done in a serious event where the airplane was kept flying for a week in spite of the flight data which indicated the a/c should have been grounded. The FAA's experience with some US carriers shows that airlines cannot be completely trusted to regulate themselves to the point where the regulator is retreats to merely an audit role. But cash-strapped governments like the program because it legitimizes the gutting of management ranks (read, "those who go out to look at airlines"), within the regulatory authority. The FAA has learned that SMS works when the regulator is looking. We haven't discovered this in Canada yet although there have been some quiet wake-up calls.

PJ2

[Oakape]

And the SLF down the back haven't a clue which is probably just as well.


It is actually about time that the SLF get a clue & perhaps they need to be gently pushed in the right direction.

Nobody is listening to the warnings given by pilots regarding training, fatigue, safety & just where this industry is heading.

Perhaps some well directed pressure from accurately informed SLF may be just what is needed to get the government regulators up & running in the right direction, to bring the almost out of control airline management back into line.

Before the industry goes completely down the drain!

[PJ2]

Oakape;
Perhaps some well directed pressure from accurately informed SLF may be just what is needed to get the government regulators up & running in the right direction, to bring the almost out of control airline management back into line.
Well, I think many in the industry would like to see/have such advocacy because, as with most industries, few listen to those within said industry, who know. We've been saying this for a very long time now but sadly it is headlines that change attitudes, not information.

The only thing almost all passengers think about and consider in their travel plans is price and their entitlement to service at $39 fare levels. The deregulated commercial environment and airlines have taught consumers that flying can be done safely on a shoestring budget. It can't.

"Safety" is one of those amorphous concepts which, while expected, is not understood. Indeed I agree that the safety of any transportation should be transparent to the user - that the assumption that it is looked after should be realistic and for the most part it is.

Maintaining perspective is also needed - aviation isn't "going to hell in a handbasket" - the industry is extremely safe - far safer than the health-care or automobile industry, which the public should truly be railing against but isn't.

At the same time, the quality and nature of aviation accidents has changed, just as some, in 1995 and earlier, said it would. I said ten years ago that owing to the way flight crews have been treated, young people who possessed the desire, intelligence, discipline and talent to fly commercially would examine the industry's prospects and go elsewhere. They have.

Pilots have witnessed stolen pensions, poor pay, atrocious working conditions, a bottom-line mentality, and management attitudes that airplanes "fly themselves" and pilots are characterized as "expensive, whiny redundancies" by mentalities that don't understand aviation; - the results are easy to understand.

For those that still choose to come into the profession, the prospects for sustaining enthusiasm over a career are "challenging".

For passengers, price is everything - "what the market will bear", we are told. But again, the results are easy to understand. In fact, if you look on the bookshelves these days, there are a number of books saying that "cheap is not good". "Best price" is reasonable but not "any price".

What "the market" does not take into account and seems to willingly accept without comment or change, is the results of "cheap" and we are seeing it today, in headlines.

Passengers can demand of airlines all they wish but airlines cannot provide it all and continue to lose money at the same time. Something had to give, and has.

PJ2

[fdr]

PJ:

my irritation is with the moral vacuum that exists in respect to duty of care within aerospace institutions.

recall the Alaskan Airlines maintainer who tried to intervene on falsified maintenance of MD80's including stabiliser screw jacks? Says volumes re Alaskan's concept of a just culture or SMS principles as per DOC 8958....

The industry is approaching a point where the box ticking of audits is taking over from the expensive program of competency training. Not saying that there is a massive loss of skills in the current generation of crews, but it does appear we regularly lose the plot within automated systems, a failure of SA for various reasons. If the processes were implemented with the intent to gain the value from such methods, then there would be some benefit to operational safety. Compliance is however, IMHO seen as a bar to jump, and once "cleared" the applicable concepts, processes and procedures are placed back in their boxes until the next pre audit event nears.

It is unusual that the AI issues raised in this thread actually are supported by the failure of AI in their recent IOSA audits. Kudos to the AO concerned. Perhaps there is a sea change on it's way...

Safety programs treading water, are effectively losing ground on their task of managing risk, as the environment is not static, the risks change with each procedure, and technological change that occurs within the industry. Voluntary reporting systems provide a mechanism for the management of risk, but require buy-in by the prospective reporters. Apathy or disinterest, abuse or similar behavior by the system to reports is counter productive, and tends to limit the volume of reports, and certainly changes the nature of reporting to those aspects of the operation that are not human factors centric.


FDR

[PJ2]

fdr;
Superbly thought and written.
my irritation is with the moral vacuum that exists in respect to duty of care within aerospace institutions. I understand. I have lost many nights' sleep knowing what's in the data but ignored or not believed; denial is a powerful human trait.

I recall the Alaska item very well. Southwest and American are other examples. We have them in Canada but nobody knows yet. There are a few courageous POIs but they're told to keep hands off and let SMS work.
Safety programs treading water, are effectively losing ground on their task of managing risk, as the environment is not static, the risks change with each procedure, and technological change that occurs within the industry. Voluntary reporting systems provide a mechanism for the management of risk, but require buy-in by the prospective reporters. Apathy or disinterest, abuse or similar behavior by the system to reports is counter productive, and tends to limit the volume of reports, and certainly changes the nature of reporting to those aspects of the operation that are not human factors centric.
All of which goes to provide an answer for Oakape's question and any passenger who may be wondering about where the industry is trending. The NTSB preso on Colgan hints, (all IIC presos collected into one PFD here (http://www.fear-of-flying.us/web_documents/buffalo_crash_ntsb_presentations.pdf)), at the sea-change to come but the trend has just started and is only getting traction now.

PJ2

[jstars2]

fdr

Re: your post # 54 in which you write:

Raise the matter with DGCA-I. I think without having the data to support your allegation that the authorities would not act further, and if they did a white wash would be in order form (sic) the DGCA and AI anyway.

I’ve just received a note from another friend and ex colleague from Air India days who, a number of months ago, submitted a confidential safety report direct to DGCA in Delhi. Unsurprisingly, he heard nothing further on the matter but some weeks later an AI order was published strictly prohibiting flight crews from contacting DGCA directly on safety matters. One assumes that this is all part of the Air India Safety Management System?

[grounded27]

flaps were oversped during the recovery (since there was no Autothrottle protection

Did this lodge as a FDE? Otherwise the idiots in control flew the aircraft within it's operating limits. Automation=button pushing aircraft operators, not pilots...

Air India is not the problem, general rule of manufacturers and governance is.

This is why we dumb down people and push forward automation, simple logic could prevent this event.

[grounded27]

Perhaps some well directed pressure from accurately informed SLF may be just what is needed to get the government regulators up & running in the right direction, to bring the almost out of control airline management back into line.

Ha, the only SLF (Refered to as by smug professionals) information that is effective.... is by those who represent the deceased pax in court...

[Exnomad]

Several comments on this thread about SLF input. As SLF with around 100 hours pilot expirence around 55 years ago, and generations of aircraft equipment design experience, I have no idea whether the FO has 10 hours or 10,000 hours on type. All we can recognise is smooth flight, lack of massive corrections on final approach and a good landing. The only occasion I have had worries was in an Air Malta flight when I could see were approaching a Cu Nim and the seat belt lights were not on, subsequent turbulence made the food trolley take off and injured one of the cabin staff.

[fdr]

Not surprising. Having had the mildly nauseous experience of working as a team leader doing remediation of airline and regulators, I have found that it is hard to underestimate the performance of the programs. It is also a pleasant surprise to find an operator or regulator that exhibits integrity. (not at the personal level, there are good people say in the FAA, stuck in Houston being hamstrung by the FAA's organisational structure in taking action against recidivist illegal operations).

If I sound annoyed, I am. Frankly I think the industry is being sold short, and is trending down towards the lowest common denominator, which is probably an AN-26 operating somewhere with illegal guinea registration, turbine disks removed from some poor schmuck who offered engines on lease and got junk back, with a captain on welfare, FO on food stamps while paying off his JAA medical fees in installments. Local CAA will sign it off as being fine.... now the passenger and you may not be directly affected by this, but if you are in the industry or use a component of the industry, then you are affected indirectly by the impact of the asymmetry of cost base in competitors.

Economic theory generally prevails in a mature industry, and overall the aviation market is stabilising at an average zero economic profit (short term is often worse...), which means that changes to cost base as a result of variable costs of standards maintenance impacts heavily on the viability of a carrier. While not a fan of regulation, the failure to demand equal safety levels being implemented, not just expected impacts all, including naturally the poor SLF who is under the illusion that their ticket buys some level of assurance of their safety.

People wanted cheap air travel, they got cheap and nasty.

"If all economists were laid end to end, they would not reach a conclusion". G.B. Shaw (1856-1950)


FDR

[Boeing7xx]

jstars the event has reached a logical conclusion. Other issues the captain might be facing are related to admin and NOT ops. I have sent you a detailed note, please do take a look at it.

And hey the expat-captain is still alive, so you can tell him that reporting incidents works for everyones benefit.

[MD83FO]

what if the independent media is involved in the matter so as to start an investigation. it is the traveling public which keep the company alive.

[Parkbremse]

i don't have the charts at hand right now to confirm it, but the published SIDs from RW29 have some pretty nasty speed restrictions which can't be met with a widebody, at least not with the 777. IIRC its 160/1700 to the 1st waypoint and 180/2800 after the turn to next waypoint. These restrictions are set in the FMS when the DEP is loaded, so if they are not cleared, this is what the A/C will fly after VNAV engages passing 400ft. So actually its pretty clear what happened:

High climb rate after lift off followed by Autopilot engagement, in 400ft VNAV engages and immediatly captures the 1st altitude while trying to maintain FMS speed = 160kts! So no wonder the Throttles went to idle... What helps? Speed intervention and select an appropiate speed! Quite easy actually.

When we operate from DEL back to europe (777f), our V2 is typically around 170kts so there is no way we can meet this silly restrictions, we brief that accordingly and clear the speeds from the fms.

[leftseatview]

How come you are using the RNAV SIDs?
Delhi does not use these or the STARs which were badly designed and are likely to be revised.
Everyone uses the Radio NAV SIDs which are in the A/C Nav data base and can be flown "managed".
They dont have any speed or low alt constraints.

[152wiseguy]

@MD83FO

Actually in this particular case it is not the traveling public that keep the airline alive. Air India is kept afloat by huge financial bailouts from the indian tax-payer!

[d105]

I don't have the DEL charts at hand but from what I understand there are limitations in these SIDs which can not be met by wide body heavy aircraft? This begs the question: why are 777 crews accepting these SIDs? Is it because there are no other options available to them? And of course not to be overlooked: incompetent Indian ATC clearing aircraft for departures not designed for those types...

[TopTup]

They are used blindly by both controller and pilot/crew alike since neither has ANY comprehension what they mean other than what
a) the controller has been told what to say;
b) the pilot blindly follows as per the FMC without any comprehension.

For those at AI (& others??), try this experiment please:

Ask your FO or other pilot to please calculate the climb-out performance (fpm) from the required min climb gradient (as per the Jepp SID chart min gradient required) from the aircraft's expected climb out speed. This asks the question, how do you know if you're aircraft is performing under OEI or MTOW / high density alt conditions (if following the SID)?

(The SULUS 4, if my memory serves me correct, from rwy 18 departing FRA is a prime example where this is required to be known/used by AI -200LR crew).

More over, this is what ANY CPL holder with an I.R. should know as their bread & butter. If not, how can they hold a multi engine I.R.?

Any takers willing to ask on their next flight? Results will be interesting.

(Now, let's not even go into the 4 stages of a take-off which should be minimum knowledge also).

[Parkbremse]

for starters, flight to europe (at least ours) are routed via BUTOP and then via ASARI to SAMAR (Pakistanian border). If you care to look up the charts you'll see, that while from RWY27 (standard DEP RWY) there is a BUTOP Radio NAV Departure available, that is not the case for RWY29 (standard ARR RWY), there is only the RNAV ERVAX SID, BUTOP Transition available. And this specific one has 160kts/3600ft to ERVAX as a restriction, both on the charts and in the FMS.

So if you're simply to heavy to operate out of RWY27 and you need to use RWY29, you're left with two options: accept the RNAV SID or ask for an individual DEP Clearance. But lets face it, as long as it is such a major problem for DEL ATC to even coordinate a simple but necessary request for 29 as DEP RWY half an hour before STD, which always results in at least 45mins delay, are you really going to ask for an individual clearance or are you going to sort it out yourself? I would do the latter anytime, especially when you know from experience that you'll get a revised clearance while still on the ground or vectors after departure anyway. But still, when the SID is loaded in the FMS, the restrictions are still there and you if you plan to use VNAV, you either have to clear them or use speed intervention to fly at an appropiate selected speed for your weight.

[beeps]

Having operated a number of times out of Delhi, in my experience it has always been that when the rwy in use is 27 and we are too heavy, as is usually the case since operating long hauls primarily, a simple request for 29 at the time of requesting clearance, has never been denied and have not heard other long haul carriers being denied either. Sometimes a delayed expected airborne time is given as it is primarily the arrival runway. And in my i have always been given a radar departure by the ATC with a level clearance to normally 2600 ft. or higher.
If one is unhappy about the level clearance it should not be accepted as ultimately the safe operation of flight is determined by the crew.

Toptup:
Your unhappiness with AI and the indian dgca is heard loud and clear by everyone thru your 200 odd posts. In this particular case the incident if not reported was detected during FOQA analysis and the crew suitably counselled as would be the case in any company. So if you devote some time in your life to things other than AI bashing, maybe you would be a happier. Your test question is like you said answerable by a cpl holder with IR and stuff and you could post it in the Tech Log if you need it answered for yourself. U call ALL AI pilots aggressive but you seem to full of it to realise how repititive and condescending some of your comments are.

[TopTup]

Beeps........FOQA........and then what? Counseled = payment?

Sounds like Snow White relishing in the apple. Enjoy. Always comforting to know that the inherent corruption, bribery, cover-ups and nepotism has AI's back. You argue "any company" No. To save my time and to enhane your reality (denial) here are a few things frm a previous post that any REAL airline would find case for IMMEDIATE dismal (cut & pasted form previous thread):

NB: it was also verified by several other pilots with AI experience.

"From my direct experience as a TRE at AI (on the 777) we must look at the SYSTEM that is in place there:

1. Rampant corruption.
2. Non-existant training standards: some pilots were failed in the sim yet that paperwork was either doctored to reflect a pass, or, the TRE was called in the justify the fail and pressured to change it to a pass, or, the failed pilot was sent on a route check to DXB within days and passed by his "batch mate", or the said failed pilot bribes for the pass. (All FACTS from my direct experience).
3. Technical exam answers are all known and shared by sms or other means.
4. Ab initio pilots coming from C152 or C210 direct to RHS of B777 without the ground instruction or handling to appreciate what V1 is let alone fly straight and level on downwind for a raw data circuit and approach, let alone land from (raw data) a stable approach, and checked to line by the TRE.
5. All but non existent CRM (mainly) from senior Capts reveling in the archaic bastardry days of a former military existence.
6. FO's too scared, too poorly trained, too inexperienced to challenge a Capt.
7. Capt's too poorly trained to listen to an FO, too ignorant to the low standards they exist within and are promoted from.
8. AI recruitment department not doing their own due diligence on the (expat) pilots that are employed (flying experience and credentials) instead relying on unscrupulous agencies.
9. Sim assessments, line route checks, instrument renewals are more often than not filled out (pass) prior to even beginning the sim or push-back.
10, Sim instructors arriving for the sim over 1.5 hrs late, no briefing, no pre-planned sortie, and only perhaps a block of 2 hrs used form the paid for 4 hours at the 9W sim.
11. Incoherent paperwork that is more important than safety, than standards, than, well, logic.
12. Sim assessment paperwork fraudulently completed: indicating patterns flown, approaches safely completed, (multiple) failures satisfactorilly completed when none were actually performed [u]at all[u] let alone to the safe standard needed (and this includes the CRM component).

So, let's PLEASE stop looking at who is the best stick and rudder pilot, who is the best user of automation, who is the ace of all bases.... Look at the SYSTEM and the airline ENVIRONMENT that allows and promotes despicably low standards and training standards far, far lower than what (we) are accustomed to in other airlines. For example; why only consider the pilot who cannot fly straight and level, or land a raw data approach with a 15 kt crosswind? We should be looking at, scutinising and criticising the training system he/she has come from to allow this, let alone that he/she is then released to line.

These pilots are passed / checked to line. They know no better and believe this is the norm for international or heavy jet aviation. So, when (foreigners) openly question this or expose such issues they are shouted down with great passion due an ill-gotten national pride in their airline (and we can all be guilty of that).

Look at the entire AI / AIE system, training standards and culture."

So, the question is directly relevant to this thread. And trust me, I would expect 99% of those on the tech Forum to do it in 5 secs, not 500 Rps.

(make that 201 posts?)

Check your PM's. Argue me privately, not here. Bring FACTS, not opinion.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Fly your aeroplane.

You'll be glad you did.:ok:

[Boeing7xx]

TopTup, it appears that uou have an axe to grind with Air India. Because, most of what you've written seem to be completely out of whack. by not an order of 5-10% but more like a couple of 1000%. I seriously hope you don't use the same margin of error when you're flying.

I would have loved to reply to each of your points, however, it appears you've made up your mind and are really not willing to listen to any other point of view than your own.

I'm sure by now jstars would have confirmed with him friend about the action taken on this incident and the ops has come out professionally on this one.

I'm sure AI has loads of room for improvement, but its not as bad as you make it sound either.

Regards...

[TopTup]

You're welcome to your opinion. So I invite you to discredit each and every one of them. Please PM me as such.

[King on a Wing]

I would 1000% agree with TopTup on EVERY SINGLE point that he has raised. Have been there and done that. And ANYBODY who disagrees hasn't two cents worth of reliable info at hand and/or is part of the same Air India unscrouplous,corrupt and mismanaged 'managment' of babus and corrupt peons...
For once....lets agree to agree and not otherwise. Else we've got another smoking hole in the ground just waiting to happen. And this time we'll have no one else to blame ..

[TopTup]

Boeing 7xx, and others with their heads in the sand, what does egg on your face feel like? I offered you to PM me to deny each & every allegation. You haven't. If your are honest, you can't. Or, start a new thread to open your debate to the wider public. That is, support your comments please. In the mean time, read the latest on your Great Air India!!!

Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations
Manju V, TNN, Oct 21, 2010, 12.08am IST

MUMBAI: Forcing unwell pilots to operate flights, rostering a familial crew for a flight in violation of international anti-hijacking norms, coercing pilots to fly international without a valid passport; these, if the airline's pilots are to be believed, are some of the air safety and security violations occurring with impunity in Air India in the last three months.

These glaring violations were brought up in a letter by Indian Pilots' Guild (IPG), the recognized union of about 350 Air India pilots. The October 13 letter titled, "Misuse of official powers and unlawful acts committed by Capt Rohit Bhasin, additional general manager-operations (scheduling in charge)," was sent to a host of top officials including Air India chairman and managing director, Arvind Jadhav, the directorate-general of civil aviation, the regional labour commissioner and the chief vigilance officer.

"When pilots express their inability to operate flights due to illness, Capt Bhasin issues verbal threats warning pilots of a number of consequences they may have to face if they avail of sick leave,'' says IPG president Jeetendra Awhad in the letter. Flying when unwell is an air safety violation under clause 42-4, part 5 of Indian Aircraft Rules. There have been individual complaints as well against Bhasin who took charge of scheduling about three months ago. Last week, a commander filed a non-cognizable complaint (NC) at Vakola police station. "The complainant was threatened with dire consequences by Bhasin over a petty matter and so he filed an NC,'' said Anil Kharade, senior police inspector.

Despite complaints from several pilots as well as substantial, in-your-face proof, Air India came out in support of Bhasin and issued a blanket denial of all the allegations. "Captain Bhasin has not intimated any pilot who has reported sick. In Air India, all rules and regulations are followed and no pilot has been penalized for availing of sick leave. The airline does not force any medically unfit pilot to fly,'' the airline spokesperson said in reply to a TOI questionnaire. Countered an airline source: "The complaint letter against Bhasin was sent only last week. The airline, without bothering to investigate these serious charges, has denied everything."

Another allegation was made that Capt Bhasin has been rostering himself with his son on flights frequently. Capt M Ranganathan, an air-safety expert said that the practice violates International Civil Aviation Organisation's Document 8973 and 9811, which lists the post 9/11 mandatory security proce dures. "The cockpit door has to be in "Locked-down" condition and under no circumstance; it is to be opened in flight when there is a threat. But when relatives fly as crew, the cockpit door becomes a weak link in the security chain,'' says Capt Ranganathan. "If a pilot leaves the cockpit, the hijacker can emotionally blackmail the one sitting inside to unlock the cockpit door. He can then be commandeered for a 9/11 type of act,'' he said, explaining why the ICAO document prohibits close relatives from being rostered together. Air India denied that Bhasin and his son had been flying together, saying the last instance was in December 2009. "The airline is lying. If they check the scheduling roster, they will see that Bhasin and his son operated many Delhi-New York- Delhi non-stop flights recently. For instance, on July 8, July 10, August 7, August 9,'' said a pilot.

Also, pilots whose passports have been sent for obtaining a visa, are often rostered to fly international in clear violation of Passports Act 1967, said the letter. Air India denied this. "Whistle-blowing is not something that pilots generally do as it could have grave consequences. But when our safety is at stake, we are left with no choice,'' said a source.

Read more: Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations - The Times of India Sr AI official in the dock for safety violations - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/Sr-AI-official-in-the-dock-for-safety-violations/articleshow/6783005.cms#ixzz132tdCnN5)


King on a Wing....Careful showing the Emperor in his New Clothes a mirror! Thanks for your support and honesty.

[jstars2]

Boeing7xx

Re: your post #122 of 20 Oct 2010 addressed to TopTup, you wrote:

I'm sure by now jstars would have confirmed with him (sic) friend about the action taken on this incident and the (Air India) ops has come out professionally on this one.

I’ve just received further information from India and I’ve answered your recent PM along the following (de-identified) lines:

Not sure that de-rostering the aircraft Commander since the P2 recently passed confidential information to Air India management constitutes proper handling of the event. Where does Air India go from here in taking remedial action? Why did the Commander cover up the incident by not submitting an Incident Report within a reasonable time? Why did the Commander not mention the flap overspeed on stall recovery, the result of which may be a future malfunction that a colleague will have to deal with? As Air India now knows about it, why has the incident not been officially publicised so that all may learn from it and why has no contact with DEL ATC been instigated so as to discuss possible improvements to SID profiles/clearances at that airport?

I’m sure that you will now equally be able to confirm that my PM decidedly does not agree that “the action taken on this incident and the ops has come out professionally on this one”.

I note that one of the leading lights of Air India “ops” has featured in the Thursday, October 21, 2010 issue of Aviation India. Would Captain Bhasin be one of those making decisions on the handling of the recent incident?

Mumbai: Forcing unwell pilots to operate flights, rostering a familial crew for a flight in violation of international anti-hijacking norms, coercing pilots to fly international without a valid passport; these, if the airline's pilots are to be believed, are some of the air safety and security violations occurring with impunity in Air India in the last three months.
These glaring violations were brought up in a letter by Indian Pilots' Guild (IPG), the recognized union of about 350 Air India pilots. The October 13 letter was sent to a host of top officials including Air India chairman and managing director, Arvind Jadhav, the directorate-general of civil aviation, the regional labour commissioner and the chief vigilance officer.
"When pilots express their inability to operate flights due to illness, Capt Bhasin issues verbal threats warning pilots of a number of consequences they may have to face if they avail of sick leave,'' says IPG president Jeetendra Awhad in the letter. Flying when unwell is an air safety violation under clause 42-4, part 5 of Indian Aircraft Rules.


Another allegation was made that Capt Bhasin has been rostering himself with his son on flights frequently. Capt M Ranganathan, an air-safety expert said that the practice violates International Civil Aviation Organisation's Document 8973 and 9811, which lists the post 9/11 mandatory security proce dures. "The cockpit door has to be in "Locked-down" condition and under no circumstance; it is to be opened in flight when there is a threat. But when relatives fly as crew, the cockpit door becomes a weak link in the security chain,'' says Capt Ranganathan. "If a pilot leaves the cockpit, the hijacker can emotionally blackmail the one sitting inside to unlock the cockpit door. He can then be commandeered for a 9/11 type of act,'' he said.
Despite complaints from several pilots as well as substantial, in-your-face proof, Air India came out in support of Bhasin and issued a blanket denial of all the allegations.

[Anotherpost75]

A little bird tells me that the famous Captain Rohit Bhasin and equally (in)famous expat Contract Manager AK Varma are now withholding the annual contract bonus of the expat P2 Captain involved in the “near death” incident. If the P2 does not get the money already allocated for payment by Air India central accounts, where and to whom does it go?

[spannerless]

The whole region seems to have this type of work ethic cover up when it goes wrong to save face!

If you can't get something done bribe your way through.

Failing that lean on the families connections to get your way or remove the problem if you not what I mean.

Nothing new!

Be very afraid these guys are lurky in many sectors above you!

:bored:

[Boeing7xx]

TopTup : the forum is not my profession, it appears to be yours though! Didn't have my head in the sand, but was busy on a long roster. Don't have internet access always, and even if i did, i'd come here after i've chatted with my wife n kids. Will take it up with you on PM once I'm back. The 131 pattern is a long one.

jstars : Checked the PM. I've already put this up in advance for the monthly commanders meeting. I hope to get answers then. Your friend will also be present at the meeting (I hope, since I see him rostered, but then rostering is another story). Will chat with him directly on this.

[jstars2]

Boeing7xx

Any progress made during your monthly meeting with B777 Chief Pilot & Base Captains on 2-Nov, re: the incident?

[Boeing7xx]

this topic was discussed in the monthly meeting, it appears there are a lot of other who read the posts here, but rarely discuss..

Nonetheless, actions have been initiated and changes have been made. the latest circular is supposed to carry out the speeds for delhi specifically for the ULH, considering that chicago is also operational now.

Here is what we were told :-

The pilot involved has been de-rostered and since this incident was brought to light very late (almost 4-5mnths after the incident) the records need to be checked to see what is the data available on this flight.

What was also made clear that this is not a witch hunt based on an email from someone who surely is disgruntled with the airline at present as his final settlement is still pending. a fair and thorough investigation will be conducted.

The only thing I'd like to say at this point in time is that incidents happen, and sometimes we are the witness, it is in the interest of the airline and the salary you get that you record them well in time rather than wait for 6 months to bring this up as an issue when your settlement is pending. It does look a bit biased then.

[misd-agin]

Hard to bring events to the authorities if the source believes the authorities will make the source the problem.

Human nature being what it is the source might wait until they leave the employment if they believe the system is designed to protect certain individuals vs. getting to the bottom of an event.

From your post (Boeing 7xx's) it appears those dynamics might be taking place.

[Boeing7xx]

misd-again it is a paradox of sorts, pilots don't report it because they believe they will be persecuted, hence the incident goes un-reported. They report it way after the incident has happened and there are little facts available at that point in time and people are unable to arrive at a conclusion for the lack of facts and the pilot has to be let off for want of evidence. Either way, the airline suffers.

I would believe that the right approach has to be to report any incident that you may believe is not in line with the SOP. Let the authorities investigate in detail with all facts that are available before arriving at a conclusion.

It cannot be a witch-hunt at the same time it has to be fair.

[misd-agin]

ASAP program. And a culture that actually supports the process.

[Green Guard]

I am sorry to tell you, but your post looks like a very naïve try to get few more jobs opening in India for people like you.

1. Since you have published it here, so the whole world knows it now, even those "undertrained" Indian Crew members as well as “government agents” intent to hang your "friend" if he published the story ?? Right ? So either you are lying or trying to have your “friend” killed .

2. If the T/O conditions were so "hot" and “heavy” (flight scheduled for a 15 hrs),
why do you insist on Reduced Power Setting for T/O ? It was short leg, domestic or what ?
3. If it really was 15 hrs flight so the V2 must have been, I guess 165 ? Can anybody check this one please ? Now….you saw the speed, over 230 FALLING all the way Down to V2-15 = ~150 !?!?!?
80 kts SPEED LOSS and you waited TILL last 3 BILLION NANOSECONDS to SCREEM all you “holly” commands , and teach us all how to behave in those conditions of your bad dream!!
I mean…hellllooooo
PS
You should try to get job in Hollywood….
“I am fired for sure – or found dead in my hotel room in Delhi. I am sure he is politically well connected.”

[Anotherpost75]

Green Guard

If you re-read post #1 you will see that the report specifically states that We were very heavy weight and the temperature was hot. No Assumed Temperature thrust reduction was used and we requested RWY 29 for departure to avail ourselves of the extra ground run

Is there some problem with your understanding of this wording as you ask why do you insist on Reduced Power Setting for T/O?

You also ask: It was short leg, domestic or what?

Do you have a similar problem with Recent Air India B777-200LR Flight, DEL – JFK That’s Delhi – New York, Kennedy – a very long sector, not a short leg, domestic or even an “or what”.

[V1V2rotate]

I believe the story and in all truth it doesn't really surprise me. I'm actually more shocked that there haven't been more accidents on Indian carriers.

I have heard horror stories from the local flying schools that train a lot of Indians. Everything from blatant incompetence to not studying at all. Caste money dragging them through multiple Multi and IFR rides until they somehow limp through with a pass. What happens when they're done their training? Well time to go home to Mumbai and fly right seat on the 777. So not only do you have incompetent people flying heavy boeing/airbus, but these people barely have enough training to understand what "good hands and feet" means. I recall hearing a story a few years ago of a student who took about 150hours :eek: to get his private license. Apparently the money kept coming (so the school kept training) and 1.5years later he was flying a A320 somewhere in India. So now you have someone who could probably barely land a King Air in a cross wind, flying a heaving jet with 300hrs. It just boggles my mind.

I'm not saying this applies to all of them, in fact I've met a few of those students who are actually very smart and very eager to learn.

I'm sure Air India and Jet airways have some awesome people working for them, but they ARE tainted with incompetent people. It is for the above reasons that I would rather walk than EVER fly on one of those airlines. :rolleyes:

[Green Guard]

Hello my friend

You try to protect the lier.
We were very heavy weight and the temperature was hot.
They even asked for a long RWY..
There was NO need to mention Reduced Thrust Setting.

Since it is obvious that the guy is lier, and mixed up long and short sector here.

Stll, if he is not successfull in Holywood, pls tell him to try Bolywood...

:}

[Anotherpost75]

Green Guard

I’m sure not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you over this and I’d think that jstars2 is well able to hold his own corner but I think that you are very confused over this matter.

Perhaps you should read the post # 131 of Boeing7xx, who seems to be an Air India B777 pilot and says he knows the personalities involved: The pilot involved has been de-rostered and since this incident was brought to light very late (almost 4-5mnths after the incident) the records need to be checked to see what is the data available on this flight.

What was also made clear that this is not a witch hunt based on an email from someone who surely is disgruntled with the airline at present as his final settlement is still pending. a fair and thorough investigation will be conducted

Surely this should indicate that the event happened?

Meanwhile, you demonstrate complete lack of knowledge of the B777 itself. Should you not get back to flying your MS Flight Sim and leave the big boys and girls to get on with the professional aviation?

[Green Guard]

If this incident surely happened do you understand
that it was YOUR friend who greatly contributed to it ?
Waiting for a speed loss of ~ 80 kts
to start screeming like a madman.

PS
He may still be good for Bolywood

[PAXboy]

Just a regular pax here but one who chooses his carriers with care over the past 35 years of adult life, due to the care with which my father chose them for me in the preceding 11 years of paxing.

This was early in the thread - and I have read every single post:
HuckIt's not like that everywhere.

We are required to keep up our hand-flying skills. And demonstrate them regularly. Our philosophy has swung back from the other side.I wonder if that's because, in recent years, there have been enough prangs and bodies to get media attention? It is usually the case that, until there have been enough prangs and bodies, nothing changes.

Whilst there are some in this thread who dispute the veracity of the original statement relayed by jstars2, the reason I believe it is that - the greatest majority support the contention and offer corroboration. I have noticed this in other threads over the years. If a carrier is not up to scratch - it is generally known. Equally, if a carrier is good - it is acknowledged.

PS Had just posted when I saw this headline: BBC News - Barack Obama heads to India on first leg of Asian tour (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11703626) The first words are:
US President Barack Obama arrives in India on Saturday for the first leg of an Asian tour, with hopes of boosting US exports and creating jobs.

Sat 6th: US President Barack Obama has announced $10bn (£6.2bn) in new trade deals with India.
Naturally it's very important to ensure that your trading partners can operate into and out of your country with ease.

[Anotherpost75]

Green Guard

Re: if this incident surely happened do you understand that it was YOUR friend who greatly contributed to it ? Waiting for a speed loss of ~ 80 kts to start screeming like a madman.

From the original report at #1

I was preoccupied with watching the airspeed which was rapidly decreasing. I was sitting in the left jump seat (located just between the Captain and First Officer) and started announcing loudly “Airspeed!”, “Airspeed!” as the speed decreased below 200 knots. When there was no appropriate response and as the airspeed decreased below V2 I yelled as loud as I could “Lower the Nose!” “Maximum Power!”, “Maximum Power!” I undid my seat belt and was leaning forward to push the throttles to the firewall when the Commander beat me to it and fire-walled the throttles as he disconnected the autopilot and lowered the nose of the aircraft. The First Officer had placed her hand behind the throttles as they were moved forward but did not touch them. TOGA was NOT pushed. We were at V2 minus 15 knots and the stick shaker had activated along with stall buffet onset by the time the engines spooled.

Please point out the part which indicates “screeming (sic) like a madman”. Similarly, in the whole report I’m unable to find any reference to “a speed loss of ~ 80 kts”. Where did this come from?

[Boeing7xx]

To clarify :-

1. I'm not an Air India employee.
2. I do not know the persons involved well, except at a professional level. If there's gossip behind this (e.g. the pilot who sent the email has an axe to grind with AI, something I got to know not so long ago), it is still not clear what exactly happened.
3. The incident was brought to light in an email sent to everyone except OPS involving a contractor, their pilot and the management.
4. The de-rostered pilot has denied anything of that sort every happened, and it was a full deck that day and it seems like everyone is on the same page except the one who sent the email.
5. The incident was reported so far out that there is little anyone can do at this stage to nail things down.
6. IN MY OPINION (please note the caps), by bringing up things like this especially when you have an issue which is turning ugly is highly unprofessional. You'd be better off, if you didn't report it at all, because you neglected your duty earlier by not reporting the incident, and now you bring it up in a way that its your word against the others, rather than have data.
7. Being a govt. run airline, it is not unusual to find ourselves at the butt of things no matter how ridiculous.

Again, like I said earlier, AI has room for improvement..... LOTS of it.... But its not as bad as its made to sound either. Give the devil its due. The maintenance is good (hey qantas has been blowin it all over), being a government run airline, documentation is taken care of well, pilots are treated well (remember this whole story of AI blowing up $10k/mnth for putting up expats in 5 star hotels), and no one is outside the envelope.

I would request that we close this thread out and open a new one if it is generic to AI rather than specifically for this incident, which is a "it might have happened, but we cant prove it".

Happy Landings.

[Green Guard]

Similarly, in the whole report I’m unable to find any reference to “a speed loss of ~ 80 kts”. Where did this come from

Confused by 80 kts speed loss ?
He mentioned speed of 230 kts. Right ?
Falling down "rapidly" to V2 minus 15. Right ?

Well, You stated to be one of big boys and girls on B-777.
Can you tell us here a V2 for MTOW on B-777?
Then deduct 15 and you must have something in vicinity of 150 kts.

SO if you friend is a LIER I would forgive him and let him fly again.
If he told the truth, I would never let him be part of any crew.

He wrote he noticed Auto throttle disconnected. So before waiting last nanosecond to scream like madman, why not calmly give a note to his friend the Captain in the seat that speed was falling and Auto Throttles were OFF?

Unless he hated that Captain so much, who always had to be a P1 ?!

sorry Boeing7xx, you've been mentioned before, here, as a defender of the this "story"..
are you trying to tell us, let's forget it ?

and it was a full deck that day and it seems like everyone is on the same page except the one who sent the email

Too many on flight deck ? It is a call for trouble. Too many cooks....

[akerosid]

Quote:

Too many on flight deck ? It is a call for trouble. All Chiefs No Indians.

Er ... there's bound to be at least one.

[TopTup]

Boeing7xx:
Still waiting for you to either do it here or PM me to deny with evidence all of what you believe I wrote is false.

Wow. That 131 pattern is a real long one by the looks of things for you to take so long to reply or write me as you assured us here on Pprune that you would....But hang on!!

Quote 1: "The 131 pattern is a long one."
Quote 2: "this topic was discussed in the monthly meeting..."
Quote 3: "I'm not an Air India employee."

Why were you doing the 131 pattern or attending meetings about this if you don't work for AI?? Ummmm.....who's the liar?

The expat Capt in question was WRONG to not report the event at his first possible chance. But to vehemently deny all of his claims and label him a liar shows the utter contempt, remarkable arrogance and severely dangerous "safety" (lucky) culture at AI.

B7xx may I suggest if you wish to stand it up, back it up. To deny all that I wrote as anything but truth makes you the liar. Pprune user "Beep" swapped a PM with me & I gave him further evidence of the corrupt and dangerous cesspit that is AI and haven't heard back from him either. But at least he had the integrity to seek an educated discussion with me. You seem to choose the head-in-the-sand tact (again?!).

So AI are putting out another circular. Well, knock me down with a feather! Archaic paperwork at AI? Who would've thought!? Will this circular be shown the same abhorrent lack of integrity, respect, well just plain "airmanship" as the many, many, many others? That is, like the one put out when I was at AI following a Boeing audit and crews were instructed, amongst things:
1. Do not fly in your pajamas.
2. Smoking in the cockpit is FORBIDDEN.
3. The cockpit door is to be kept LOCKED at all times (not deliberately unlocked for anyone to come and go).
4. Passengers, family, friends, etc ARE NOT permitted in the cockpit at ANY TIME.
5. Newspapers, sheets and table clothes ARE NOT to be used to blacken out the cockpit windows (not ever! and especially when in day VMC over Afghanistan's terrain!)

Since this circular was utterly ignored why the hell would anything else published make any damn difference? Then again, you're going to deny any of the above goes on for us, aren't you? (As assured by previous post).

The fact that a circular like this HAS to be published is disgusting enough.


PAXboy:
I trust with the knowledge you have and study you claim to have done you will NEVER be on a VT registered aircraft. As I have mentioned previously, I never will, as per other pilots with direct experience at that despicable mess. Tell your friends.

[Anotherpost75]

Boeing7xx

For someone who is “not an Air India employee” your post #131 of 3 Nov 2010 is remarkable. How would you know all this and write with such apparent certainty if you had not attended the meeting as an employee?

this topic was discussed in the monthly meeting, it appears there are a lot of other who read the posts here, but rarely discuss..

Nonetheless, actions have been initiated and changes have been made. the latest circular is supposed to carry out the speeds for delhi specifically for the ULH, considering that chicago is also operational now.

Here is what we were told :-

The pilot involved has been de-rostered and since this incident was brought to light very late (almost 4-5mnths after the incident) the records need to be checked to see what is the data available on this flight.

What was also made clear that this is not a witch hunt based on an email from someone who surely is disgruntled with the airline at present as his final settlement is still pending. a fair and thorough investigation will be conducted.

The only thing I'd like to say at this point in time is that incidents happen, and sometimes we are the witness, it is in the interest of the airline and the salary you get that you record them well in time rather than wait for 6 months to bring this up as an issue when your settlement is pending. It does look a bit biased then.

Could it be that you and Green Guard are Air India trolls, setting out to discredit the original report on the incident?

[Boeing7xx]

1. Air India has a lot of pilots through contractors like Parc & Rishworth. I am one of them. We're not employees, we're contractors there's a difference. For those who're in the same boat as I am, will know.

2. I have no reason to discredit the report. I wasn't remotely involved it in anyway.

3. I'm not sure AI is tech savvy enough to have trolls surf the internet looking for stuff, well they barely manage to get the roster out on time sometimes.

4. I have no idea who green guard is.

5. TopTup I've pretty much decided that unless you choose to open your mind up, it would be fruitless getting into a discussion with you. I would invite you to have an educated discussion on this rather than get into the literary equivalent of a fisticuff, since you've been bordering on extremes with your opinion. Unless there's rationalization I'm quite sure that you would stonewall anything I have to say.

6. TopTup : I never said that the incident never happened, what I stated was, the incident was reported so late in the day that there was little or no data to nail this one down.

7. There was a f/o and a cruise f/o also present in the flight deck when this supposedly happened besides the two captains in question.

8. The captain who reported this incident has done it at a time when he is facing a challenge with the airline.

9. With the start of 3 new ULH sectors, I hope AI performs well in the market.

[Boeing7xx]

If there's anything that you wish to take up with me, please PM, do not go on about it on the forum, its pretty juvenile. Let's stick to the topic here.

[fullforward]

May I disagree with you.

There's nothing juvenile about putting on a public forum about a potentially deadly situation, driven essentially by a corrupt system.
You failed to put any solid argument about the points TOPTUP clearly nailed. He mentioned about FACTS, not opinions or points of view.

It's frustating that you, as a involved with AI, looks more interested on carry on empty discussion or to defend the "undefensable".

I don't see you ever inclined in attacking the real problems.

[PPS1001]

Gentlemen...

My first time on this forum.

I have read these posts with abject (but not altogether surprising) unease. I fly for a European airline and on the many occasions that I've flown into BOM or DEL, I have certainly seen AI's procedures from close quarters.

From my perspective, the majority of AI pilots are extremely competent professionals. Indeed, some years ago in Seattle for a 744 refresher, I met a couple of AI gents...very competent indeed (procedurally and through demeanour). Every airline has "bad eggs", some more than others.

However, one thing I have seen is that AI takes shortcuts a lot. At my airline, we have extremely strict procedures on line assessment, review, refresher and procedure training. Based on what I know through discussions with AI commanders, FO's and SFO's, there is a "shortcut" mentality, permeating every area of flight crew assessment. I think this needs to be addressed.

I have met Capt. Bhasin and Capt. D. Anand before at BOM. Both struck me as being top-grade flyers. But of course, I don't work for AI, so don't know the internal politics!

[fullforward]

Hummm, let's see: so you're an FO at an EU carrier (BA, LH maybe?) and then, you spend your layovers at Delhi or Mumbai having some beers with likes as some top AI management Capts Anand and etcetera...
Extremely credible.
And from what you chat with them and you noted at Boeing you concluded you're in front of great aviators, so the facts outlined by TopTup and others are just exagerations...
Son, please finish your PPL at your flying club in Ahmedabad before posting here...:rolleyes:

[Boeing7xx]

fullforward : TopTup & I have been having a fairly meaningful discussion through PM's. Should you wish to join in, please PM TopTup. My respect for him has grown leaps and bounds in the short interaction that we've had. And I believe he & I are both on the same side of the issue, not against each other as is being portrayed here.

And If by saying you "don't see me attacking the real problem" is in reference to my points at the monthly meeting. I think I have my rights as a pilot to discuss issues which do not necessarily pertain to discussions on public forums.

[fullforward]

...however, with all due respect, I still think the serious issues with the potential to directly affect lives should be publicly discussed in order to extend the benefits to the the widest number of people.
What TT raised on his previous posts are way too serious to be confined on private discussions.

[King on a Wing]

@ 7xx-Quote in rgds to TT--"And I believe he & I are both on the same side of the issue, not against each other as is being portrayed here..."
Lolololololzzzz.....Lmfao
Did u try and 'cyber buy' him too the typical AI way...!! Or did u threaten the poor bloke....i hope neither.
TT--I one hundred percent endorse your views again. Been there and done that. Why does AI somehow remind me of the lead line in Hotel California...
:p
PPS--If god didn't bless u with a great IQ,you should at least have let your experience(as an aviator,or otherwise..)teach you NOT to gatecrash into a forum with ONE previous post and a very very obvious initial for your pprune handle. If you are who I think you are,my cellphone should be ringing within 30 seconds....:cool:

[Boeing7xx]

King on a wing & Full forward - Top Tup and I are having a meaningful discussion, which neither one of you seems to be interested in. Slander is easy, and please go ahead... its your right! However, should a moment of sanity prevail, please PM Top Tup and get an update.

King on a wing - your specific talk about buying out someone is despicable to say the least, it appears you're speaking from experience. I hope you have some self respect left or are you going to stoop lower and surprise me again.

Again,Top Tup & I both believe, we have to be the change we want to see. I'm using his ideas to help point out trouble areas with solutions, rather than just point out problems and walk away. Changes have been made, but let's also accept that the airline didn't reach this stage overnight. Sometimes all it takes for evil to triumph is that the good men do nothing.

Happy Landings

[royskaria]

I dont understand what these expat pilots in these previous posts keep whining about! They should be praying to whatever coconut shell their people pray to that they have a job that allows them to support their families with dignity. Instead all we see is this kind of "oh these injuns are so bad its sad" kind of propaganda on internet forums.

Speaking from an indian perspective, Expat pilots working in india have been nothing but trouble from the very beginning: many of the incidents we hear of in the media here, from landings on taxiways, to landing on wrong runways, runway overruns and wings brushing airport buildings (at IXA) can be traced an expat pilot sitting behind the controls. And not to mention the AIX crash at Mangalore. There is too much of a coincidence here.

I have seen some of these characters come into my flying school and many of them find it difficult to speak english! Most of them come from third rate flying schools "back home" and then try to blame it all on these "injuns". Given this poor history of expat pilots, why is the Govt not keeping its promise of banning the employment of foreign pilots by Indian carriers? The Govt here had made a promise to this effect before the 2009 elections and airlines were even served notices. But the deadline for implementing this seems to keep getting extended. Who is the Govt of India working for?

And if these expat pilots think its so bad here, then maybe they should just go back to their home countries. This will ensure that local talent gets a chance to get jobs.

I blame the Indian Govt for allowing foreign pilots to have a free run of the country's skies. Why should Indian carriers, put up with the dramatics of these expat pilots after putting them up in expensive 5/7 star hotels (while Indian pilots are put up in cheaper 3 star hotels around Mahipalpur)? An RTI application reveals that Air India spends 4 lakh rupees a month on a single expat pilots hotel stays alone! This at a time when indian students passing out of our flying schools are sitting jobless at home and taking up jobs at call-centers!

I say since the expat pilots find it so bad working in India, the Indian govt should tighten regulations with regards to recruitment and employment of foreign nationals with Indian carriers.

Coming back to this issue: I am not exactly a fan of Air India and lord knows they have a lot of things to improve on. But they(and other indian carriers, except perhaps Paramount) have systems that allow incidents like these to be reported and dealt with through the proper channel. Thats what this so-called "witness" should have done instead of whining on internet forums and broadcasting it on public networks. That only triggers a classic cover-up action.

PS: If a US pilot had resorted to this kind of chain emails with a US carrier, what do you think would have happened?

I hope Air India gets to the root of these emails, traces out the fellow and sends him home on the next flight out.

[IndAir967]

@ ROYSKARIA.. I DO NOT ACCEPT YOUR FINGER POINTING AT EXPATS.
Its highly unprofessional of us to do it. Yes there are some pain in the ass cases and cribbers but most of them are fine gentlemen. Most of them possess and share knowledge that I consider very essential to become better aviators.
There wouldnt be any difference between us and those few cribbing expats if we start finger pointing like them. So lets obtain whats good and ignore what is unnecessary. For example one of our pprune member T*PTUP who's technical discussions and pointers are incredible but he cribs about air india like a baby. Here you should listen and take what you want and ignore his cribbing.

Regarding Air India. Things are definitely changing for the good no doubt.

[royskaria]

@indair: you know any other way of getting Ms.Fonda to keep quiet?

I know many expat pilots are perfect gentlemen, but then there are the other variety of which we have seen ample evidence on this thread that just get you worked up! :)

[IndAir967]

Well when you believe in yourself and are open only for constructive suggestions, I am sure you wouldnt loose your cool, come what may :)

[Razoray]

Well when you believe in yourself and are open only for constructive suggestions, I am sure you wouldnt loose your cool, come what may http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifIndAir967

I'm not sure what to believe.
I read this thread when it first came out and just picked it up again today. I cannot believe where it has gone. It seems to have hit home.....and what happened to TopTup....is he really having private conversations with 7XX ?? It's like reading a cheap spy novel....

anyway I was always against deregulation but if this is what happens when one Airline controls a country than I may have changed my mind......:ooh:

[TopTup]

HA! Nah... no John le Carre novel going on!! While it is obvious B7xx's opinions do/did still differ from mine he has had the integrity to welcome an open dialogue. We've swapped a few PM's and I hope to continue to. No, no airline is perfect but it takes people to WANT to part of the solution as opposed to the problem that steers things on the right course. It is not that we disagree, it is the fact that we are allowed to disagree, welcome someone else's opinion and look for the common good, not the bad. FForward has also sought to join in the discussion, which is also welcomed. In PM's more detail and openess can be expressed.

Now for the fun.....Royskaria:
To start with, please go back and review any and all of my posts (take your time, I typed them slowly for the likes of you). Find but ONE comment where I have not endorsed nationals being employed over locals IF safety cannot be compromised, or where unemployed nationals should be employed over expats AND receive the training they are entitled to. Before you start, try and remove your xenophobic glasses.

Blame the expat! You've single-handedly found the solution to all of India's woes!! GENIUS! So, if I may ask:
- did the expat employ him/herself or did (for example) AI screen these pilots first via a sim check, etc? They passed hence they were employed. Of course, the fault of the expat for allowing that holier than holy TRI/TRE to pass him!!
- did / do the agencies or the likes of AI do a complete background check of credentials, experience, etc or did the deceitful expat "get away with it" due the pathetic "standards"? Yep....expat's fault again!
- did the expat Capt in the Mangalore accident not go-around when called by the national FO? Also, did the national FO assume control and take over? Of course.....expat's fault entirely on this one!!!
- government decrees to remove all expats by said date, yet they're still there AND being employed! Obviously those dirty, sneaky expats are causing this corruption and complete ignorance of these decrees!
- any pilot not submitting a full and timely report (as in this case it appears) would / should be severely punished via his employ due a complete failure to adhere to airline SOPs as well as the regulatory body's CAR's.....did this happen (anyone got the truth?) or not....of course! The expat's fault for a failure of the "safety" (lucky) department at AI!
- those damn expats are to blame for the corruption and the lining fo the pockets by the managers in the numerous department siphoning off money as a direct result and circumstance of the expat contracts. Sneaky and devious expats agin!!!
- And fancy those expats FORCING the rostering department to keep them in 5 star hotels for weeks on end doing NOTHING!! I mean really! Just plain rude. The computerized rostering system that was paid for in full yet not used is to be blamed on the expats! If only the damn thing would run on JW Blue like the chief of the rostering dept then I'm sure things would run a lot more efficient! And to think AI would save 60% on their accommodation expenses (quote from member of AI's accommodation committee) if they placed the expats in serviced long term apartments.... Then again, how would the back-handed deals at the present hotels operate if this were the case. Expats...you are so RUDE!
- REMOVE THE EXPATS so the clean living, un-corruptable, efficient, honest, hard working and morals-above-question managers at the DGCA and airlines like AI can PLEASE get on with their job!!!

Royskaria, thanks for pointing this out to the wider community.

IndAir: perhaps this baby's crying of highlighting the corruption, nepotism, lower than low standards (criminally negligent in my opinion) of AI - including nationals and expat pilots alike - may, just may waken some people to wake the hell up. Of course, you have to WANT to see the bad to ever hope to be part of a change for the better. If nothing's wrong then what on earth needs to be fixed? Head in the sand. Plain and simple.

So many of you argue against me, yet not ONE person to date has challenged me on FACTS to prove me wrong. And where I am wrong then I will gladly admit it. Just back it up if you want to stand it up.

That's it kids. I'd rather continue swapping PM's with people wanting to have a professional difference of opinion, share facts and share knowledge rather than fight ignorance and "the world is flat" mentality.

As I've quoted before, in the words of the great Homer Simpson: "All the world is stupid but me."

[olepilot]

...and thats why Dawkins don't debate creationists!

[royskaria]

anyway I was always against deregulation but if this is what happens when one Airline controls a country than I may have changed my mind.....
There was a time back in the 80's when Air India was the sole indian carrier flying international while another state owned carried Indian Airlines operated domestic and regional flights (kind of like the BOAC and BEA).

But since the 90's we have had an open skies policy allowing private Indian owned carriers like Jet and KingFisher among others.

So it is a deregulated market and AI is not the only game in town. In fact it is number 3 or 4 in terms of market share with Jet and KF leading.


TopTup
baby? :* awww! sorry honey, you will have to take your sweet talk someplace else!

well TopTup and I agree on one thing: that there is corruption in AI and they should really be more stringent in its recruitment standards: I really hope they pull up procedures to ensure that professional whiners and "keyboard warriors" of the kind we see here, are kept out of the Air India cockpits.

If Ms.Fonda had actually read my post he would have seen how I held Indian carriers equally at fault for recruiting expats and the reason why this is continuing is the potential for cuts that expat recruitment provides. The situation is sad really: there are a multitude of contractors/agents/pimps (insert suitable word of choice: mean the same thing), who have wormed their way into the airlines: and its not just air india. Recruiting expats is a lucrative business, far more than recruiting a lowly but wholly qualified indian.

Expat recruitment via one of these agency/pimps ensures cuts for not just the agents but others in the chain as well. And a casual look at the list of these pimps reveals that most of them are either ex-Air India staffers or the son/brother/mother in law of someone working at the airline.

This cut system ensures the unhealthy trend of recruiting more and more less-qualified expats at the expense of locals. Its one thing when this is done to tide over a shortage of pilots (as was the case in 2004). But quite another when it becomes the norm.

And one cannot ignore the fact that most of the incidents/accidents in Indian aviation since 2007 onwards can be attributed to an expat pilot. There may be reasons for that (separate discussion): but one cannot overlook this fact when exploring alternatives.

And yes: One major benefit of keeping expats out would be a lot less whining on forums like these. :E



Find but ONE comment where I have not endorsed nationals being employed over locals IF safety cannot be compromised,
Aaah! so safety is compromised when locals are employed? All these incidents documented in the past 3.5 years happened with local pilots at the helm? Yes Ms.tipTop: someone had to say it and that someone had to be you: the white man is infinitely more qualified to fly and us natives should be thankful to the sahib for keeping our skies safe! :hmm:

[fullforward]

Why you boys don't accept TOPTUP suggestion and try to deny with FACTS all his arguments?
He pointed out straight facts he witnessed or were involved with, why keep this teenage backfiring?

[royskaria]

@fullforward: we would do that sir, if only Ms.Fonda would venture out with some facts on the public domain.

But i think all the "facts" at his disposal are kept aside for those mysterious PM's he sends out to the fortunate few. All we have seen on the public domain are ill-informed rants that border on the racist.

Perhaps there is a reason for his bitterness (there usually is). Perhaps he was fired wrongly (or perhaps not so wrongly). Perhaps what he needs is a good lawyer. or maybe just a good pharmacist.


Keeping Ms.fonda's rants aside, I would rather use this opportunity to get to the root of why so many incidents are happening with such regularity to expat pilots. Is there a larger reason? Something we are missing?

[Challenger05]

Dawkins???

I thought it was Darwin didnt fight the creationists.. ;)

[royskaria]

you are qualified to post here on standards, simulator and aircraft proficiency, NNP's (sorry! I used an acronym that a PPL wouldn't understand: Non Normal Procedures), heavy jet management, fast jet & high altitude aerodynamics, multi crew co-ordination, CRM/TER (google those ones for yourself)..... Best seek a non-white person's knowledge on some of those so the source is reliable.
We dont need to be a CPL holder to spot and point out a ranting troll making wild and baseless allegations. :=

Thats all you, a so called CPL holder has done on this thread: make unsubstantiated rants (AGAIN for the umpteenth time) about Air India: probably your former employer.

We all are beginning to understand why AI (and other airlines) probably let you go. it would be dangerous to have someone so high-strung in the cockpit.

We are not anti-expat at all: lord knows it would be fun having some of you fellas around! We just want the whiners out! It is simple TopTup: If you dont like it, dont take it!

Why spoil it for EVERYBODY with your endless and baseless rants? Rants not backed up btw by a shred of evidence till date if i may add! :)

There are lots of people out here, indian/non-indian, perfectly qualified (and less high-strung) who would do perfectly well in the airline that kicked TopTup out.

To the others: Top Tups baseless rants should not become the basis of your choices. We dont judge all expats by the same yardstick. There are good people and bad people everywhere. And then there are the looney-tunes cases! :)

TopTup has an agenda against an airline that decided to fire him: now is that surprising? He needs our help and support. (and probably some Calmpose in place of the Kool-Aid). :E

[doubleu-anker]

The solution has been found apparently! :}

Medical checks for foreign pilots now a must - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Medical-checks-for-foreign-pilots-now-a-must/articleshow/6951291.cms)

[Boeing7xx]

Be the change you want to be.

It is easy pointing fingers all over. Take a page from TopTup, there's a lot to learn from him. While we still do disagree on some issues, at least TopTup has the decency to come up with solutions rather than nitpick all over the place. In all my years, I only have but one regret that I did not get an opportunity to share the deck with him.

TopTup provided me with 2 suggestions which I've implemented to the hilt in the last couple of sectors, it has helped. 3 other captains have joined in. In the end, it is up to those who work to make the change happen. Remember that the bad apples are few, but if we let them overpower or overwhelm us it is our fault, not theirs. They do not have any other recourse but to resort to below-the-belt measures, but we do.

For those of you who wish to launch personal attacks, please feel free to do so, it does not bother me anymore. It did earlier, but not now. If you wish to have a meaningful discussion I am more than open.

[fullforward]

Let's not waste our time with idiotics psycopaths like roskarias.
He's just having fun in pissing and ****ing himself out of the diapers, nothing serious about this.:ugh:

[caulfield]

I concur with the sentiments of the initial poster.The standard in ALL Indian airlines is very low but of course you cant say that because youre being racist.Their ATC is possibly the worst in the world too.Indian pilots fly using the AFDS and if that goes,god help everyone behind because they aint got a clue.This is as true for the trainers as it is for the ab-intios.I wont fly home free,I prefer to pay and fly qantas.There I said it.If it makes me a racist,frankly I dont give a damn.Better a racist than a liar.

[IndAir967]

Their ATC is possibly the worst in the world too.

Biggest BS I ve heard/seen in recent times. Given the kind of equipment/resources they ve got to the volume of traffic they handle, Indian ATCO s are doing an incredible job. Its either you have not flown outside where you are from or you have not flown in Indian skies.

[royskaria]

Considering the tone and tenor of his posts so far, TopTup is clearly not psycholigically fit to be in the cockpit of a Cessna let alone an airliner.

Clearly he is bitter at being terminated from the airline and the bitterness shows in his posts. His rants are not based in fact but rooted in bitterness.

He has made tall claims and ludicrous allegations against the airlines, but has not so far provided a shred of evidence for any of these allegations. Atleast not on the public domain. If he really feels so strongly and his evidence is so strong, then he shouldnt have any reason to not post this info? Why hasnt he done that?

Indian aviation is better off without expat pilots like these. I would hope the DGCA and indeed indian carriers revamp their rules to ensure that local talent gets preference over poorly qualified expats.

[weido_salt]

royskaria

Do you agree with TopTup and most other people, that the DGCA is a corrupt bunch of self serving halfwits?

If you do I may have a little job for you. If not, then you are beyond help.

[fullforward]

NATION
India Today NATION Story
Rajasthan: Fraud pilots busted

Rohit Parihar
November 13, 2010
Updated 00:00 IST


Rahul Yadav, a pilot with Indian Airlines who claims he has 1,000 flying hours with the country's official carrier, made the worst landing of his life on October 9. The 25-year-old cruised into jail when he was held by the Rajasthan Anti-Corruption Bureau (ACB) on charges of getting a commercial pilot's licence (CPL) with forged documents that show him having flown 200 hours when he has actually done only 22.


The Rajasthan state flying school at Sanganer near JaipurYadav, whose father is an official of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), is only one of 14 rogue pilots. The DGCA gave Yadav his CPL on the basis of documents submitted by the Rajasthan State Flying School at Sanganer near Jaipur. The school, though closed for two years now, is being investigated in 14 cases-India Today has the names-where students were falsely certified to having flown as many as 200 hours on single-engine Cessna 152 aircraft, including cross-country flying from places where the aircraft never landed.

While similar cases have been reported from Haryana's Hisar Flying club, Additional Director General of Police Ajit Singh Shekhawat, who heads the ACB, has asked the Central Bureau of Investigation to look into the possibility of a national-level racket. "The fraud has shocked us with the ease with which the lives of passengers have been put at risk," he says. The CBI has since started investigations and the scandal is expected to spread to other states.

Another young aspirant, Nidhi Vashist, became a 'pilot' by allegedly paying Rs 11 lakh. Her logbook displays 169 flying hours from the Jaipur flying school and the remaining from Karnal, Hisar and Patiala. Once she got her CPL, Vashist got a twin-engine flying completion certificate from the Philippines and applied for a licence from the DGCA. The DGCA, however, got suspicious when it found a solo flying entry when it should have been with another pilot. Upon inquiry, the centre denied having issued the certificate. This was last year when the Philippines faced many reports about such frauds, leading to a crackdown by the authorities.

Vashist alleged that Mahendra Kumar Chaudhary, chief flying instructor at the Jaipur school, had got her the twin-engine certificate for money. Vashisht demanded her money back and when Chaudhary refused, she went to the police. Chaudhary then issued two cheques for the entire amount to 'settle the matter', which bounced. Vashist then complained to the ACB. A cross-check with air maintenance garage, air traffic control (ATC), fuel records and logbook entries revealed that she actually flew for just 22 hours for which the fee was deposited. "Surprisingly, we found thatthe chief flying instructor of Hisar, Mahavir Singh Beniwal, had also certified her arrival, which points to a bigger and organised criminal activity," says Shekhawat. An arrest warrant has been issued against Beniwal.

Yadav was accorded a similar fake flight in March 2007. In his case, Chaudhary did not even enrol him for the 22 hours that he possibly actually flew. Yadav later did a 50-hour flying course from Canada, which is being looked into as well. Chaudhary has been identified as the brain behind the fake certification racket in Jaipur with the roles of executive and supervisory officers also being examined. He has been arrested twice and bailed out quickly but faces more cases. There have been instances when the ATC recorded 36 flights taking off but the flying instructor showed 178 for the same period. Chaudhary's counsel Ashu Singh refused to comment.

A certificate of certain hours of flying makes one eligible for enrolling at flying schools abroad. "It is necessary to investigate all flying licences issued in India, including those given on the basis of training in India or abroad," says Shekhawat.

The DGCA's certification system needs to be looked into to ascertain whether it makes regular visits and checks to ensure whether a flying school is adhering to given norms. It is surprising that flying data which is maintained at many places manually is not linked via a computer network, making it easy for it to be altered without being detected.

Investigators suspect several dimensions of fraud involving deliberate maintenance of shoddy records at various levels. Most of the 14 candidates identified so far are currently employed with various government and private airlines. The impunity with which rules were compromised raises serious doubts about the DGCA's supervising system as well as the recruitment procedures most airlines follow. With even co-pilots supposed to play a crucial role, the scam may make flying in India more dangerous than it already is.:{

[TopTup]

I saw this child's post prior to leaving for a flight.... 18 or so hours later and home I had time to think what to write back. Best answer: nothing. I've served my time, worked hard, studied hard over 30+ years & still love walking down that airbridge every flight.. Why should I bow down to a xenophobic PPL holder's pokes?

For the record, (as posted MANY, MANY times before!) I resigned from AI when confronted by members of the "Safety" and "Training" depts attempting to bully / force me to change a the fail grade I gave an AI Capt ("Cmdr") who was unable to land the 777 flying on raw data with a 15 kt x-wind in the 9W sim.

Integrity has no price.

(2 days later his "batchmate" passed him on a route check to DXB and back. My assessment was "lost". Authorities and airline were serviced with required reports).

I think FFwd has demonstrated evidence enough. My evidence is there for the world to see in previous posts.

If anyone wants to question me then go through my previous posts where ample examples and evidence has been given, as well as the opportunity to pursue allegations that an idiot could uncover. I'm not going to waste time re-writing them, going back through the (many) posts to please an immature, xenophobic PPL holder. Those who message me as well as those with the honesty and integrity to see where change is needed seem not to argue with me. Then again, they are "professional pilots". Expat and national alike.

Moderators, this thread has run it's course and died thanks to this child without a shred of professional aviation experience or knowledge.

Please shut it down.

[akerosid]

Have a read of this: some pretty scary circumstances:

Report: Air India Express B738 over Arabian Sea on May 26th 2010, inadvertent nose dive (http://avherald.com/h?article=433d30d2&opt=0)

One can only imagine what would have happened had the captain been unable to regain access to the cockpit ...

Bear in mind that this incident occurred only four days after the Mangalore crash.

[EuroPPL]

During the upset the airplane experienced vertical accelerations between -0.2G and +2.1G. All passengers were seated at the time of the upset and enjoying their dinner. No injuries occurred therefore.

Just how do you "enjoy your dinner" at -0.2g?

[jstars2]

My former colleague recently received this from the expat captain involved in the near death incident:

In the attached ‘Flight Safety Bulletin’ of 11.02.2011, (see below) is it possible that General Manager (Flight Safety), Captain xxxxx, might have been referring to the flight of July 13, 2010 that I nearly died on… with more than 250 others?!!!

It is curious how he actually published something more than 7 months later and then references the ‘occasional’ stick shaker (mine was way past stick shaker and into a fully developed stall) as though such an event should almost be considered as a transient normal phase of flight or an inherent acceptable risk of aviation. Any stick shaker event under normal flight conditions (no Non-Normals present) is a reason to lose your license. I have only experienced stick shaker one time in my 36 years of flying…… which was one time too many….. and it was at Air India. Had I not sprung out of the jump seat to make sure the throttles were pushed to maximum thrust and the autopilot disengaged, and the bank and angle of attack lessened, Air India would have been minus one B-777. The aircraft recovered at less than 1000 feet above the ground. I assumed command shortly after the recovery and when the Indian captain had left the cockpit I proceeded to lecture both First Officers on the incident. They had no idea what had just happened nor how close they were to death. We were in a 30 degree bank at the time of stick shaker (and subsequently entered a fully developed stall buffet shortly thereafter until the bank angle and angle of attack was reduced). If that bottom wing had stalled, you would have had to dig us out of the 120 degree pitch and roll crater that would have certainly ensued.

In case you are curious, here is the India crew’s coordinated universal answer to the incident. This was the official email. (3 Indians – 1 expat. I refused to write a report without seeing the flight data. It was never shown to me and I was never called in)

After t/o, on r/w 29 (TOGA power), climbed on r/w hdg to 1700' and then turned left on a hdg of 190 deg climbing to 2600' as per the clearance. Autopilot was engaged at 1000 feet. As the thrust reduction altitude was flaps 1, the speed crossed flaps 15 and in no time rested near flaps 1 speed. To arrest the fast increasing speed, I had to momentarily disconnect autothrottle and slightly bring back thrust levers to arrest the speed and prevent it getting into VMO. In the meanwhile we were changed over to radar frequency, which gave us climb to FL70, which was executed by the FO. The a/c started to climb which led to drop in the speed that was arrested on time by pushing the thrust levers to full forward, disengaging autopilot and reducing body angle to gain speed. Thereafter the AP and the AT was engaged and normal flight resumed.

Acceleration height 1000 feet
Thrust reduction: flaps 1
TOGA power
END.

Without going into too much detail, this Indian dissertation bore little resemblance to the truth. First, seldom do you see an Indian captain fly up to 1000’ feet before connecting the autopilot! It didn’t happen this time either. He connected the autopilot at 200+ feet, he was very fast on airspeed and the autopilot captured the low altitude hold-down immediately. The throttles came to idle and he didn’t know why they were doing that so he disconnected them and forgot about it as he turned the corner…… while the F/O (100 hour Ab Initio) initiated a climb (instead of the captain who should have been the one to make any MCP inputs because the autopilot was still engaged at that time). The only reason he mentioned the flaps in his email report is because he thought that the airplane would tell on him for that and not the stall. He got fast on speed after the recovery because he was still at maximum power and didn’t know what to do next without the autothrottles. We oversped the flaps big time!!! But we were alive. If it weren’t so serious, the errors made would have made for a great aviation comedy. In fact it was a total ‘goat rope’ but with potentially grave consequences.

As a result the crew got ‘retraining’ consisting of signing the book in the black mould dungeon (aka Air India Training Centre) and supposedly got a simulator ride….and we all know how thorough those are! I submitted a U.S. NASA report via the ASRS system for the collection of data and did not get involved in the ‘Indian truth’.

I decided to take a ‘sabbatical’ because they weren’t paying me (they finally paid me 8 months late) and because the Indian captain involved has threatened me if I return to India.

They are still out there pretending to be pilots when they cannot fly safely without the autopilot. Beware.


Air India Flight Safety Bulletin. 11.02.2011
SUBJECT: FLIGHT DECK AUTOMATION
INTRODUCTION TO FSB:

During the investigation of a few incidents, where in momentary stick shaker was
experienced by the Pilots, and during Flight Data Recorder monitoring, it has been
observed that possible mismanagement of Flight Deck automation lead to such excursion.

Even in complex and highly automated aircraft, automation has its limits. In a dynamic situation, the pilots can lose situational awareness of the automation mode and may not understand the interaction between the automation and the phase of flight or pilot input. During training, pilots are taught to use that level of automation that best supports the operation of aircraft/phase of flight. Although the concept is correct, in a rapidly developing scenario, the pilot may not correctly understand what the automation is doing at that particular instant.

REASON FOR ISSUE:

Maximum numbers of incidents have occurred in the B777. The B777 has very high
thrust engines and at times the energy state is far in excess of that required. For e.g. The maximum take off weight in an ultra long haul flight is typically between 340 to 350 tons however, at times, especially on shorter flights, the take-off weight could be as low as 210 tons to 220 tons. In such cases, the maximum permitted reduction in thrust by way of assumed temperature would still leave a large quantum of excess thrust for the take-off and climb, resulting in a very high rate of climb and rapid acceleration. Low visibility and some other weather conditions may not permit use of Reduced Thrust by way of Assumed Temperature. On the other hand, at every high take-off weight, the performance is comparatively sluggish.

During Flight Data Recorder analysis it was observed that the stick shaker incidents
occurred mainly due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Manual flying with excess bank during flap retraction at heavy weights.

2. Early flap retraction without permitting the aircraft to accelerate at the expected rate.

3. The pilot may have induced or precipitated the event by improperly manipulating the automation/disengaging automation partially, e.g. Auto Pilot engaged but Auto Throttle disengaged etc.

RECOMMENDATIONS:

A thorough understanding of the auto flight system is essential. Although it is difficult
to define every possible scenario, pilots should visualize various possibilities and
mentally revise how they would tackle them. I.e. In a particular situation what should be the sequence of de-selecting auto flight systems, taking over manual flight control if required, and the sequence of reselecting auto-flight systems. Examples of reducing the level of automation are as given below but are not restricted to those given:

i) Controlling the speed by speed intervention in VNAV.
ii) Using Altitude Hold when required to level out at short notice during
climb/descent
iii) Using Heading Hold during turn when required to stop turn in place of using
Heading Select and then selecting the required Heading
iv) Changing from VNAV to Flt. Level Change
v) Changing from LNAV to HDG Select.

Examples of sequentially deselecting Auto Flight Systems are:

i) Auto Pilot disengaged with Auto Throttle engaged
ii) Both Auto Pilot and Auto Throttle disengaged but using flight Director.
iii) Both Auto Throttle and Auto Pilot disengaged and deselecting Flight Director.

Studying incidents which have occurred in the industry and learning from them,
discussing with experienced Training Captains, would help pilots to come up with the
best strategy to adopt when faced with various scenarios. Any exceedances should be recorded in the Flight Report Book and necessary reports be raised to facilitate early technical inspection. The exceedances will be detected later through the DFDR; however the aircraft may have flown without the necessary technical inspection in the interim period. Therefore, immediate reporting is mandatory.

(Issued/Signed)
CAPT. XXXXX
GENERAL MANAGER-INCHARGE (FLIGHT SAFETY)

[Anotherpost75]

Quote from what appears to be the Air India General Manager (Flight Safety)

During the investigation of a few incidents, where in momentary stick shaker was experienced by the Pilots, and during Flight Data Recorder monitoring, it has been observed that possible mismanagement of Flight Deck automation lead to such excursion.

During Flight Data Recorder analysis it was observed that the stick shaker incidents
occurred mainly due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Manual flying with excess bank during flap retraction at heavy weights.

2. Early flap retraction without permitting the aircraft to accelerate at the expected rate.

3. The pilot may have induced or precipitated the event by improperly manipulating the automation/disengaging automation partially, e.g. Auto Pilot engaged but Auto Throttle disengaged etc.


Seems like stick shaker activation is an everyday occurrence in Air India!

[A300BOY]

Just a thought to an earlier comment about the Airbus alphs floor protection, If the autothrottle is disconnected it is not going to help much.

[BlackandBrown]

Incorrect, Alpha Floor will activate with the ATHR off. Alpha Floor and TOGA Lock can be removed by disengaging the ATHR.

[SLFguy]

Scary to read post #182 in light of post #183 :eek:

[BlackandBrown]

Why is it scary? If on an approach the pilot decides to do manual thrust and forgets to add thrust, the speed comes through Vls and hits alpha prot, regardless of whether ATHR is engaged or not the Alpha Floor protection will kick in and give TOGA thrust. If the pilot then disengages the ATHR again then the protection is again removed. It makes good sense.

[captjns]

Why is it scary? If on an approach the pilot decides to do manual thrust and forgets to add thrust, the speed comes through Vls and hits alpha prot, regardless of whether ATHR is engaged or not the Alpha Floor protection will kick in and give TOGA thrust. If the pilot then disengages the ATHR again then the protection is again removed. It makes good sense.

Not entirely true. If the T/H is armed, and speed is deselected, then the bar on the speed button will illuminate and the thrust levers will advance to maintain selected speed.

If the A/T is disarmed, with insufficient thrust to maintain the approach path, then the jet will stall.

[BlackandBrown]

and the thrust levers will advance

Are you talking about an Airbus?

If the A/T is disarmed, with insufficient thrust to maintain the approach path, then the jet will stall.

The Airbus can stall for example in severe turbulence but on the average weather day with ATHR off and the thrust levers at idle as the speed passes below Vls, towards Vs, Alpha prot will be met and Alpha Floor will kick in giving toga thrust.

What is T/H? By deselecting speed do you mean physically closing the thrust levers or going managed? What is the bar on the speed button? I don't think you are talking about Airbus.

Please excuse me if I am wrong.

Please read the following taken from Airbus FCOM:



ALPHA-FLOOR PROTECTION
Alpha-floor protection automatically sets the thrust at TOGA thrust, when the aircraft reaches a very high angle of attack.
The Flight Augmentation Computer (FAC) generates the signal that triggers the alpha-floor mode. This, in turn, sets TOGA thrust on the engines, regardless of the thrust lever positions (1.22.30)
The FAC sends this signal when the angle of attack is above a predetermined threshold, that is a function of the configuration.
In CONF3 and CONF FULL, this threshold decreases as a function of the aircraft deceleration rate (down to - 3°).
Alpha-floor is available from lift-off until the aircraft reaches 100 feet RA in approach.

Note : - Alpha-floor is lost, when one of the following combinations of failures occurs :
SFCC1 and FAC2, or
SFCC2 and FAC1, or
Both FCU channels, or
1 EIU, or
Both FMGCs.
- Alpha-floor is lost under alternate or direct flight control law.
- Alpha-floor is lost in engine-out, when slats/flaps are extended.



A/THR ACTIVATION
The A/THR is active when it controls thrust or speed. The position of the thrust lever determines the maximum thrust that the A/THR system can command (except in α-floor condition).
The A/THR
being armed
, is activated :
- when the pilot sets both thrust levers between the CL and IDLE detents (two engines operative)
- when the pilot sets one thrust lever between the MCT and IDLE detents (one engine inoperative).

The A/THR being disconnected, is activated when the pilot pushes the FCU pushbutton while the thrust levers are within the active range, including IDLE position.

Note : When the pilot sets both thrust levers to IDLE position, the A/THR disconnects but, if the pilot pushes the A/THR pushbutton of the FCU, he will simultaneously arm and activate the autothrust. Due to the thrust levers position, IDLE thrust will be maintained.
- when ALPHA FLOOR is activated, regardless of the initial status of A/THR and the position of the thrust levers.

[captjns]

Yes BlackandBrown... I was writing about the Boeing.

In the simulator, I demonstrate a coupled approach with the A/T disconnected and thrust set at about N1 50%. It's an eye opener... even in a simulator.

I also demonstrate a coupled approach with the A/T armed, but speed deselected, with thrust levers idle. As speed approaches target the A/T will advance to maintain selected speed.

[BlackandBrown]

My point was in response to the comment alpha floor function on the Airbus.

[fl380]

AI and IC pilots do not like expats for sure. Read this..

Second pilots? union also alleges partiality to expats - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Second-pilots-union-also-alleges-partiality-to-expats/Article1-664577.aspx)

Air India prefers to hire foreigners, Indian pilots? union complains - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Air-India-prefers-to-hire-foreigners--Indian-pilots-union-complains/Article1-663375.aspx)

imagine the NYC-DEL and all other flights without expat drivers...

[Akali Dal]

I am all for the sacking of the PIC of the alleged incident if the investigation proved his incompetence leading to a highly dangerous situation.

Having said that, one cannot discount the " 15 posts " of fame syndrome pertaining to this whistle blower...the self aggrandizing motivation with a hint of closet heroism.

[zondaracer]

The Times of India on Mobile (http://m.timesofindia.com/india/IndiGo-pilot-who-landed-on-nose-wheel-failed-licence-test-7-times/articleshow/7583939.cms)


CHENNAI: The Directorate-General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has revoked a woman pilot’s licence alleging that she used forged papers to get her airline transport pilot licence (ATPL), which is mandatory for an aircraft captain.

On January 11, Indigo pilot Captain Parminder Kaur Gulati made a rough landing at Goa airport. When the plane flew back to Delhi, its nose wheel developed a snag. Investigations faulted Gulati’s landing technique. She used the nose wheel to touch down instead of using the rear landing gear. She was grounded. Further investigations showed that she had used the wrong technique several times.

"We have revoked her licence. The pilot seems to have obtained an ATPL by submitting forged documents. We are going to file a police complaint," director-general of civil aviation Bharat Bhushan said. The DGCA is probing how she got her ATPL after having failed the examination seven times.

Pilots aspiring to become captains must log 1,500 flying hours and pass an examination that comprises papers in navigation, metrology and radio aids. While metrology is an oral test, the other two have written and oral components.

Pilots have to submit the log of flying hours, medical certificate and other documents to apply for ATPL, a tough examination conducted by the DGCA once in three months.

Bharat Bhushan said the airline could not be faulted for employing the pilot since she had an ATPL licence.
Asked what the airline was planning to do to prevent such incidents, Indigo Airlines president Aditya Ghosh said, "As an airline, we completely rely on DGCA. We will follow any instruction from the regulator."

Sources said touts in Delhi often help pilots speed up the process of getting a licence. "We are not sure if they still function as the DGCA has started to monitor the ATPL paperwork," an official said. The regulatory authority is now checking if any agent helped Kaur get the licence.

A senior pilot said it was puzzling how Kaur managed to land on the nose wheel. "A flight comes in to land with its front tilted down but the pilot lifts the nose wheel as the aircraft is about to land to allow the rear wheel to touch down. The nose wheel is not designed to take the full load of an aircraft that comes in to land," he said.

[star57]

Maybe the copilot was a 200 hour wizard that had his father bribe the director of flight operations...I heard that a couple thousand dollars/euros/pounds goes a long way in India:)

[747 forever]

don`t be surprised if you see a 777 crash on the news, nor the 787. I have watched some Indian news reports on youtube and they said indian pilots did not have the experience landing in low visibility. That country is very cheap!

[Espada III]

As an SLF butting in; BOAC mentioned earlier in this thread that...

"A low-level level off is by no means unusual and needs to be carefully briefed due to this. It can be common in Tel Aviv. It is easily handled as a crew."

Why are there low-level level offs, why are the difficult and given that I fly out of TLV a great deal, why are they common at TLV given that you usually take -off towards the sea?

Thanks

[Avfreak]

Just joined the forum and this is my first post....Browsing thru the archieves i come up on this thread and am shocked to see the extent to which facts have been misquoted.
To start with i would like to put forward some glaring inconsistencies in the discussion here!!!!
1) The incident was reported on email to the flight safety dept. upon arrival in JFK.

2)Air India have a very elaborate process of DFDR monitoring and frequent calls from flight safety are not rare.

3)Also Air India do have a safety reporting policy (anonymous reports included)

4)The flight safety dept. infact was critized in the mangalore crash report for being too harsh and overly punitive on erring pilots.esp for hard landings!!!

5)THE CREW INVOLVED WERE COUNCELLED ON THEIR ARRIVAL TO MUMBAI.
THIS WAS FOLLOWED UP BY CORRECTIVE SIM TRAINING SESSIONS.

Although this in no way absolves the crew of their actions,the above clarifications are for those maligning the country and the company based on inadequate ,incorrect reporting of facts.

P.S -flight crew are even called to fltsafety for switching off recirc fans while enjoyin a smoke.thats the extent to which they go!!


Also to clarify,
QUOTE from 777 FCOM

""A/T supports stall protection if armed (even if the A/t is disconnected).When speed decreases to near stick shaker activation,the A/T automatically activates and advances thrust to maintain minimum maneuvering speed(approx the top of amber band)""

[SpaceNeedle]

Don't worry too much Avfreak. I think most sensible people know that many sorry characters here were on a self aggrandizing trip. The subcontinent with its inherent problems of inexperienced crew adds cadavers to the jackals and hyenas circling around to boost their egos in this sorry industry where many " adventurers " lack self esteem.