Easterlies at EGLL today

[OLNEY2d]

Hi,

Just curious; we just given the longest final onto 09L I can remember for some time this pm. There was also some interesting approach routeing going on (crossing over the localiser etc) and some orbits being given etc.

Unless I'm being dense (highly likely) the cause wasn't obvious and so am simply curious as to what causes patterns like this? traffic volume? weather? r/w obstruction?

Cheers

O2D

[Jumbo Driver]

Westcott Snatches ... ?


JD
:)

[Roffa]

Too many off the stacks, a missed approach, weather, disruption/blocked runway, infringer, other priority traffic inbound (PAN etc) and so on. Highly unlikely to be caused by a snatch as they only really happen when the traffic is quite quiet.

The reasons for a longer than usual final or crossing over to the other side are many and varied. Could be any of the above or something else. Not unusual but not ideal either.

In theory you shouldn't go further west than where the north/south base of the TMA steps up from 3,500ft to 4,500ft (about 8nm E of CPT) as that's the western extent of Heathrow's airspace on easterlies, but that does get stretched on occasion!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<In theory you shouldn't go further west than where the north/south base of the TMA steps up from 3,500ft to 4,500ft >>

Except if your name is Mike Romeo!!

[OLNEY2d]

Thank you; all of those explanations make sense. We didn't make it as far west as the ever patient Mike Romeo crew.

However, if I recall correctly (again unlikely) we were vectored on at about 24d having just left FL70 for 6000'. A first!

[camelfeeder]

OLNEY 2D... If you were established around 16:20 local today I can give you an answer why you were vectored so far West. There are relatively new procedures for runway inspections at Heathrow. It is intended that one large gap is provided so that 2 vehicles can inspect the runway thoroughly without having to vacate the runway. This is usually around 15nm. Today the gap required was 22nm due to only one vehicle being available. (Bit of a disgrace if you ask me). This is hard to judge at the best of times, especially on Easterlies as you are so far from the stacks. We were also having to provide wider spacing due to the work in progress affecting the turn off for 09L.

Ok enough of the excuses! We misjudged it and had too many off the stacks. I must admit I was in the mind set that it was to be a normal 15nm gap, I realised pretty late on that 22nm was required.:mad:!!. Being in the middle of a dose of Malaria tablets that are not agreeing with my bouls this was not ideal! At this point the EGLL airshow began. I think 26miles was about as bad as it got for you guys but a quick exit to the toilet soon after revealed I had suffered far more than you.
Hope you enjoyed the tour.

[cossack]

Being in the middle of a dose of Malaria tablets that are not agreeing with my bouls this was not ideal!
Is Lariam still a no-no for controllers in the UK? I took it way back in '94 I think and had no ill effects but there were reports of "mental issues" attributed to its use a couple of years later.

[Dan Dare]

one large gap is provided so that 2 vehicles can inspect the runway thoroughly without having to vacate the runway

Which idiot thought that one up then? Isn't runway capacity one of the most limited resources in this sceptred isle? Surely runway inspections can be carried out quite safely arround traffic without any reduction in capacity.

Being in the middle of a dose of Malaria tablets that are not agreeing

Camel, I should keep quiet about that and don't do it again. I don't think the ANO differentiates between what you did and the more obvious avoid substances which could lead you to jail. Generally if the drugs could affect your performance you shouldn't offer your services at work - even if we are all too short-staffed to work without you.

[Dan Dare]

Okay, I stand corrected: -

Acting under the influence of drink or a drug
194 (1) A person must not act as a student air traffic controller whilst under the influence of drink or a drug to an extent that would impair their capacity to act as such.

So apparently its okay once you are qualified and I've been tea-total at work for no reason for all these years:}

[Roffa]

I'm wondering what malaria tablets and pétanque have got to do with each other?

[camelfeeder]

Dan... Rest assured I had a full consultation with the medical team about which anti Malarial medication to take with regard to work duties before I took them. I was advised Malarone was safe to take. There are many others that are prohibited mainly due to the reason that they may cause hallucinations.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm staggered, reading these posts, not least about the loony runway inspection procedure.

[Jenson Button]

I have to say I'm a bit concerned with what appears to be a vain attempt to fit what appears to be a very big square object into a tight round hole.

Arrived last night at about 19.00z with 15-20 min delays. Fine can understand that the traffic is busy at that time of day; but why on earth is there only the ONE vehicle to do runway inspections when two are required to the job in the gap required ? There is no slack in the arrival rate at these peak times to cater for this sort of inefficiency. I'd hazard due to lack of manpower - not a dig at the ops guys but you can't be two places at once and it seems there is a thin coverage at best of times.

In amongst this we have WIP at exits where most of the short-haul traffic needs to vacate in order to keep the arrival rate high. Even some of the heavy traffic vacate at the wip exits if they are light, so why not co-ordinate a bit more traffic onto 09R ? Do atc still have restrictions on operating deps from 09L and arrivals onto 09R - I seem to remember reading something recently that suggested this ought to be possible in the near future ?

The potential for go-arounds must surely increase with the demands of keeping the arrival rate high, the constraint of sticking in a massive gap for one poor ops inspection vehicle and traffic maintaining a high speed 100knt taxi in order to vacate asap after the wip.

It just seems a bit over-ambitious.

Jenson

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What happened to inspections on an on-off basis? A single vehicle goes on and inspects a section between landers and the spacing stays the same... I can't believe the new procedure is anything to do with ATC.

[Mushroom_2]

I'm with HD on this one. Can we have the official explanation for the change in proceedure? Surely not 'elfnsafety again?

[Minesthechevy]

HD, I know that the runway inspections always used to be opposite direction, full lights on, it only took a couple of seconds for the vehicle to clear the runway - in fact you could see the wheels turning as soon as you started to say 'Checker, clear the runway.......' (well wouldn't you be a bit smartish if some bloke was throwing 100 tonnes of metal at you at 125 mph?:hmm:)

One time, there was a 27R inspection going on with a Brymon -7 coming in. Checker told not to go east of block 15, Brymon told not to go west of block 16. Job done, box ticked, and as far as I am aware, no trousers soiled. I forget the name of the controller involved, conveniently...... but I bet it wouldn't be even thought of nowaadays......

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

You're right M!! The guys (and that delighful lady whose name escapes me) driving Checker had nerves of steel. There was a suggestion at one time that the roof of Checker should be equipped with PAPIs so they could stay on!!!

[Minesthechevy]

Yes, I remember the lady in question - she once cornered a runaway illegal in the 27R hold using only a Sherpa van.

No-one knew at the time if he was aarmed or what...

She said she'd have caught him quicker if she'd had a 4WD - and soon after, AOSU got spanky shiny new Discos....

They probably use Pajeros now yech spit or some other wannabe offroader:=

[Vlad the Impaler]

In amongst this we have WIP at exits where most of the short-haul traffic needs to vacate in order to keep the arrival rate high. Even some of the heavy traffic vacate at the wip exits if they are light, so why not co-ordinate a bit more traffic onto 09R ? Do atc still have restrictions on operating deps from 09L and arrivals onto 09R - I seem to remember reading something recently that suggested this ought to be possible in the near future ?

That's a fine idea but what do you suppose we should do with all the departures?
For a lot of the afternoon yesterday there was 10-20 minutes outbound delay despite which we were taking landers on the right.
If there were more then the outbound delay would build to the point where there are no stands for the inbounds to park on.

There are rules regarding when we can land on the departure runway on westerlies which relate to the amount of inbound delay. There are no such restrictions on easterlies except the common sense restrictions imposed by the balancing act.

Its all about balance. The WIP is a royal pain in the arse but it needs doing and its unfortunate that it has a far greater affect on easterlies.

We had 3.5nm spacing which was working ok but when the spacing delivered isn't the advertised product then there are no get outs. There were a few missed approaches yesterday caused by a combination of optimistic spacing and crews not flying the assigned speed.


As for the runway inspection regime we don't think much of it either but it's their airport to run as they wish. Complaints in writing to HAL.......

[Roffa]

VtI,

As for the runway inspection regime we don't think much of it either but it's their airport to run as they wish. Complaints in writing to HAL.......

I thought the driving force behind the sterile runway for inspections came from within the LHR ATC safety/management empire, not HAL.

Can you clarify or expand?

[opnot]

Hi All
We at Manch have had a rwy inspection procedure whereby the airport authority decreed that they inspected at specfic times, against the flow uninterrupted,therefore no departures and a arrival gap of 20 miles result queues at the hold and acft into the stacks
Due to pressure from their customers they have now decided to inspect with the flow ,still uninterrupted but the inbound gap is reduced

[Heathrow Tower]

I thought the driving force behind the sterile runway for inspections came from within the LHR ATC safety/management empire, not HAL.

Bingo.

:ugh:

Not really any safer either, as we now have to accommodate driver training on an on-off basis in gaps, as we did with the old style inspections, except now this is done by trainee drivers or drivers who are used to a sterile runway, and ATCOs who are used to a sterile runway, so surely the risk has increased?

Experienced ATCOs and experienced drivers was unsafe, and yet potentially inexperienced drivers and rusty ATCOs (especially as we will soon start to validate some who started training after the change to sterile runways) is fine!!!!!!!!!!!
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Vlad the Impaler]

I stand corrected. Whoever came up with it wants shooting though. Utter bollocks.
It pisses off the crews, approach and of course us. Although the inspection usually only takes 3 or 4 minutes (with 2 vehicles) it seems like an age and you can't use any part of the runway, even for crossing whilst its going on.
I guess that the idea is to remove a possible cause of "runway safety events". Unfortunately we've still managed to have the best part of 30 runway incursions this year!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Unfortunately we've still managed to have the best part of 30 runway incursions this year!>>

Now that really makes me curious. Why do they happen? Is ATC not vigilant enough? In the 20+ years I worked Heathrow Tower I can only recall one or two. I accept that there may have been more, but not in the numbers mentioned.

[Gonzo]

HD, the definition of a runway incursion has changed considerably over the years. If an aircraft noses over the bar it's now an incursion, if an aircraft lands without a clearance but it's safe to do so it's an incursion, if an aircraft lands with a clearance but the ATCO doesn't get a readback it's an incursion.

Not helping with flight crew relations, runway incursion is quite an emotive term.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK A.. many thanks for that. Times have changed, not always for the good perhaps.

Take care.. Bren

[Andy Mayes]

if an aircraft lands with a clearance but the ATCO doesn't get a readback it's an incursion.


How so because if it has been ''cleared to land'' then it is a planned presence and has been authrorised whether the clearance has been readback or not (obviously I'm well aware it is a required readback).

A Runway Incursion is any occurrence at an airport involving the unauthorised or unplanned presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for aircraft landings and departures.

[reportyourlevel]

Andy Mayes, your definition is incorrect...

Runway Incursion: any occurrence at an aerodrome involving the incorrect presence of an aircraft, vehicle or person on the protected area of a surface designated for the landing and take-off of aircraft.

...which is subtly different.

[Minesthechevy]

HD - It sounds like the folk who are more interested in creating paperwork than solving problems found a new toy to play with.

I am/was all for safety, but this does not sound like common sense to me.

[Andy Mayes]

Andy Mayes, your definition is incorrect...


:confused:

That definition came off the CAA website! What is the current definition?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

M.... Sounds like the Poison Dwarf is running trhe show again!!!!!

[Minesthechevy]

HD - yes, that could be ONE explanation......

[pax britanica]

Hi
Having had the scenic tour of N London, Herts bucks and almost Oxfordshire yesterday coming into LHRas PAx I was very interested to read this explanation of why the delays occured.
It seems to me that LHR operates on two levels , operational people who run the airport: atcos, pilots, ground ops drivers and the airline ops folks and then in another group the HAL managers who think they run the airport but actually get in the way of the running of the airport .

This sadly is very common across the UK at the moment with a whole mangement class obsessed with processes and best practice because they cannot understand how something works in practice because they have no actual experience of it.

Much as I moan about the inadequacies of LHR I have the greatest respect for all of you who make it work at all given its inadequate size, lack of proper investment and seemingly stupid corporate management. I am afraid you are not alone with this situation and it maybe part of the reason why we are not the country we once were.

Rant over and thanks again to the powers that be at PP and the contributors who let interested users like me have glimpse of how you fols keep it all running

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

PB... You'd be utterly amazed at the way "the powers" run Heathrow. I can't speak for the present, although I suspect it is as bad. Some examples:

1. Gulfstream approaching 10L during a quiet period, nothing in front of him and lots of miles behind. BAA rang to say he did not have a "slot" to land and had to divert somewhere. We passed the message and the flight diverted to Farnborough.

2. HS-125 started up for an international flight, again at a quiet time. BAA rang to say he could not depart until XXXX (if I recall, about half an hour hence) because that was the start of his "slot" time. We pointed out that he was number one for take-off with no ATC delay and would cause no delay to anyone else. They were adamant and instructed us to tell the pilot that if he went he would never fly into Heathrow again. He went.... saying he had no intention of ever returning.

3. Concorde coming back very late one night after some tech delay had to land by 11pm (night "curfew"). We put it on the ILS for 10L many miles out and urged the crew to keep their speed up, which they gladly did. It reached 4 miles from touchdown at 22.59 and would have landed a few seconds after 11pm. BAA said he couldn't land and after a truly deafening go-around, which must have woken everyone for miles around, it diverted to Brize Norton.

Your opinion of these incredible decisions is..........

[Minesthechevy]

4. Night curfew again. The last BA 747 busts his chops to get airborne before the deadline, we do everything we can, he gets to the Holding Point literally a few seconds after, BAA ring and tell us he can't depart. To be fair, the ODM was a little embarrassed to have to be making the call, but where was the common sense? Deplane, find hotels, all the associated grief, it must have cost much more than the fine would have been....

Put it in context - IIRC the Lufty 737 cargo flights were allowed to carry on regardless....

CAA = Campaign Against Aviation. BAA = B*gg*ring All Aircraft. (Allegedly). I wonder what FAA stands for?:hmm:

[Norman.D.Landing]

Real lack of understanding of the night noise restrictions at LHR shown on this thread.

The limits on movements and QC are set by Govt. The airport has to adhere to them and if it does not there are consequences.
Have a look at page 4, point 2(b). Anyone fancy 10% less night movements next season?

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/sup/EG_SUP_2010_06_en.pdf

[Minesthechevy]

Norman D:

I rather think that, given HD and myself accumulated twice as many years just at LL as you have existed totally on this planet, we had a reasonable grasp of the situation wrt night noise regs.

Busting a night noise limit by 20 minutes, yeah, not on, but by a few seconds only? Gimme a break.......

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Norman. Those of us who worked at Heathrow certainly understand the noise restrictions. However, the first two examples quoted in my post above happened in broad daylight!

[Norman.D.Landing]

Minesthechevy, be it seconds or minutes, it's still into the quota. Where do you want to draw the line, 5 secs, 20 secs, 45 secs? The Govt say the time is 23:30:00L end of.
My age, and your experience has bugger all to do with it I'm afraid.

HD. I wasn't referring to your first two examples. :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Norman - there's no need for naughty words. Your profile reveals nothing except your tender years. Minesthechevy and I are fully aware of the rules and regs. Our whole working life was controlled by them. It would help the discussion enormously if you revealed your professional interest/qualifications..

For 99% of the time there were no night-time problems. On the evening the Concorde would have landed just seconds late, there was no other traffic so it wasn't as if a stream was trying to beat the curfew. And remember that under certain circumstances the curfew can be broken. One might have hoped that those running the airport would have had some sort of emergency contact with DTI to obtain approval in the exceptional circumstances. But, no, toe the line whatever carnage is caused. What an extraordinary way to run an airport.