Rejecting a 7700?

[jfkjohan]

Hi guys,

I'm sorry but I always thought that if an aircraft was in distress, he/she could land anywhere? and should, at the nearest aerodrome?

Singapore Airlines plane lands in India after bomb scare - INQUIRER.net, Philippine News for Filipinos (http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingnews/world/view/20101004-295942/Singapore-Airlines-plane-lands-in-India-after-bomb-scare)

Maybe in this case, the heightened security over ruled the emergency?

Regards,
Johan

[Phileas Fogg]

Nothing in that report states that the aircaft was squawking '7700'!

[Airbubba]

If you've been to India, you know this sort of thing is nothing unusual.

Some perspective on the incident from local (well, Marathi) journalists:

Flight 3 hours in air despite bomb alert - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata-/Flight-3-hours-in-air-despite-bomb-alert/articleshow/6686905.cms)

Good thing this was a false alarm...

[Phileas Fogg]

39 crew on board? :)

[bigjames]

indeed it is worrying that they had to continue but equally worrying is the fact that any crackpot can call up an airport and make such threats and divert a flight like that. nuisance terrorism and i hope some significant effort is used to catch the moron concerned.

oh and 39 crew... why do you think sq is so popular! :ok:

[bugg smasher]

Not unusual, visa issues dictate that for certain nationals, listing on the GenDec as crew facilitates entry and exit procedures, avoids certain others. Captain's wives have seniority, as I understand it.

Ultimately, it's a shopping trip, bringing flash bling back to the home country, and sold at great profit, in local terms.

[p51guy]

That is when you declare a Mayday and say going direct, watch my blip. How many ATC guys have been killed by a bomb going off in an aircraft. I had one false positive bomb threat on my flight to LAX and you can do anything you want. Don't ever let ATC delay your landing.

[slatch]

I agree with P51 guy, declare an emergency, put 7700 in the box, transmit your intensions, if you dont like what ATC says ignore it and press on restating your intensions. It's ours and our passengers lives at stake. If you really think it is a real problem who cares what someone on the ground that will not be effected by the outcome thinks. They will move any traffic once they realize you are serious.

[Lon More]

if you dont like what ATC says ignore it and press on restating your intensions.
The decision not to grant landing clearance is not in ATC's hands. This is very much a political thing. Should you choose this course of action it is entirely possible that all the runways are blocked by ground equipment. It has happened before.
BTW It isn't mentioned anywhere in the article that New Delhi was actually the closest airfield, just the most suitable; commercial interests at work here? Also, what was the difference in flying time between Going to New Delhi or to Kolkota?

[White Knight]

That is when you declare a Mayday and say going direct, watch my blip. How many ATC guys have been killed by a bomb going off in an aircraft. I had one false positive bomb threat on my flight to LAX and you can do anything you want. Don't ever let ATC delay your landing.


You may want to get out of the US more:ugh::ugh:

In these parts of the world they WILL block runways if they don't want you to land - it's NOT LAX.

[jetopa]

So true, unfortunately.

In 1978 a highjacked LH B737 low on fuel wanted to land in Aden / Yemen. The authorities there decided to reject their request and ultimately blocked the runway, forcing the crew to land their airplane on a strip of sand next to the runway instead...:ugh:

[Wannabe Flyer]

Delhi airspace was closed to all Non Scheduled commercial traffic on the day and time in Question. The sky over Delhi was buzzing with Military aircraft, UAV's. The time in question there was huge fireworks display almost in line with the flight path. IAF had Mig 29's on stand by to shoot down any intruding aircraft.

180,000 troops on the ground for security with multiple threats of sabotage. In the middle of all this if an aircraft with a potential bomb threat requests to land in the city, it could be anywhere in the world they would have still diverted them to the next suitable location. I think it was a wise move to avoid any mis communication that might have led to a sad ending

Not familiar with the flight track of Moscow-Singapore, but I think Calcutta would not have been a 3 hour diversion but rather 45 mins or so.

Just my 2 cents from being on the ground at the site!

PS: If they were over Amritsar, then Lahore is as close if not closer.......Also Amritsar can handle a 777. Seemed like a commercial thought to request DEL as SQ has a large presence there.

[PA-28-180]

" Delhi airspace was closed to all Non Scheduled commercial traffic on the day and time in Question. The sky over Delhi was buzzing with Military aircraft, UAV's. "

Was this NOTAM'd?

" Seemed like a commercial thought to request DEL as SQ has a large presence there. "
Wouldn't it be better to do what you can to lessen the impact on your passengers as much as possible and get them on their way again as soon as possible (after some IDIOT calls in a bomb threat...again!....but the crew didn't know if it's real or if it's Memorex now, did they??).

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<That is when you declare a Mayday and say going direct, watch my blip. How many ATC guys have been killed by a bomb going off in an aircraft. I had one false positive bomb threat on my flight to LAX and you can do anything you want. Don't ever let ATC delay your landing.>>

Has anyone noticed the increase in moronic postings on PPRuNe? If a pilot declares a major emergency ATC will do everything possible to ensure the safety of the flight and get it on the ground ASAP. At least, that's the way we function in the UK.

[Locked door]

You do realise this is the security for the Commonwealth Games, right?

[fmgc]

At least, that's the way we function in the UK.

You wanna chat to people who operate in the sub-continent, middle and far east!

It's not like the UK!

[vovachan]

to catch the moron concerned

They did track down the gentleman rather quickly.

[bigjames]

thanks vovachan, i did not see that in the news and am delighted to hear it. hope they throw the book at him big time!

[con-pilot]

Hijackings and bomb threats are political in nature. Therefore, I can see why in some countries in the world, landing permission would be not granted. Not that I agree with that, but, not much one can do about it.

Now, if an aircraft with a mechanical/structural/fire emergency is denied permission to land, that is an entirely different matter. To my knowledge that has never happened. But, if an aircraft in that type of emergency, that is a non-political emergency, has been denied permission to land, I'd like to hear about it.

[Daysleeper]

Quote:
At least, that's the way we function in the UK.


Not really true for security alerts is it? Ryanair and Prestwick springs to mind.
I

[vovachan]

PS: The guy is supposedly a nut case who made bomb threats before.

[Kent BeTrue]

Simply curious.

If the bomb threat was made in the US.... and the nearest runway was Regan National.... Do we think that the US authorities would permit a landing there?

[Lon More]

Not really true for security alerts is it? Ryanair and Prestwick springs to mind.
Certain airfields are designated to receive this sort of traffic for a large number of reasons. ATC is not one of them, nor has it anything to do with the decision making process.

[PA-28-180]

" what would have been the reaction from the ground had anyone tried that on September 11,2001? "

This seems a bit of apples and oranges....a possible threat as opposed to an actual attack and it's aftermath, with the SCATANA protocol activated.
I'm sure, in your scenario, they probably would have been diverted to a military field....same for the Reagan National scenario - lots of suitable military fields close by....imo.

[Phileas Fogg]

Of all the suitable airports in India, runway length, fire cover etc. was Delhi actually the nearest airport or the first identity that sprang to the crew's mind perhaps taking in to consideration Delhi was already on SQ's network, handling agent, crew change, daily check, crew hotel etc?

Obviously the crew's minds were distracted by another circumstance but nominating to divert to a major capital city with a, possible, bomb on board with a worldwide televised event going on, well .....

Just curious what Heathrow would say .... "Hello Heathrow, we've got no slot, we've got a bomb on board, can we come in?" ..... "Nope, you can p1ss off to Stansted" ... just perhaps :)

[kaikohe76]

OK Folks,
I do not know all the facts re this incident, but if my understanding of the reports is correct, there is one action that could be taken
Any international Air India flight is banned from any airspace other than their own for a month or so.

[p51guy]

Flying mostly to central america, south america and the caribbean I don't think any of those countries would park trucks on their runway to not let you land in an emergency situation. Saving your passengers and crew is your only concern and none of those countries would hinder you from expeditiously getting your aircraft on the ground safely. I don't know about the far east. seems pretty barbaric. By the way I didn't say I would go direct watch my blip unless they wouldn't cooperate and give me the expeditious handling I needed at the time. One of our pilots had to do that because they weren't responding to his request.

[SKS777FLYER]

P51guy Flying mostly to central america, south america and the caribbean I don't think any of those countries would park trucks on their runway to not let you land in an emergency situation.

Flying one night over Port Au Prince in the mid to late 90's on way to the South, a Lear Jet radioed pan, pan, pan to Port Au Prince and simultaneously declared emergency with some sort of mechanical difficulty and informed PAP that he was going to land at PAP. ATC actually answered rather quickly (!!!!) and informed the Lear they could NOT land PAP. The pilot pressed the issue and was informed by ATC that it would be fired upon if it attempted a landing at PAP. The Lear diverted next door to the D.R. at Santo Domingo. Apparently there was some sort of coup or somesuch and Haiti wasn't accepting anybody that evening.

[Wannabe Flyer]

PA - 128

"Though a Notice To Airmen (NOTAM) had been issued in view of the high security and restrictions for the CWG (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/topic/search?q=CWG) opening ceremony, an emergency landing should have been allowed," said an experienced captain. "

Read more: Flight 3 hours in air despite bomb alert - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata-/Flight-3-hours-in-air-despite-bomb-alert/articleshow/6686905.cms#ixzz11YznM0RG) Flight 3 hours in air despite bomb alert - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kolkata-/Flight-3-hours-in-air-despite-bomb-alert/articleshow/6686905.cms#ixzz11YznM0RG)

Still certain he could have landed at Amritsar or Lahore as they were equally close choices. :E

[742]

Simply curious.

If the bomb threat was made in the US.... and the nearest runway was Regan National.... Do we think that the US authorities would permit a landing there?

Certainly the flight would not be shot down and the runway would not be blocked, so the basic answer is "yes". However IAD or BWI would be a better choice for all concerned for numerous reasons that have nothing to do with security.

[fatbus]

Who cares about an airspace notam, "Bomb/smoke/fire" on the ground ASAP. Agree with the post " declare mayday" ATC should do everything to assist, Delhi ATC should be hung . I'm putting it the ground where I want when I want,period

[inducedrag]

OPLA (Lahore) would have been the nearest one it seems that only airline requirement due crew change available was catered for not safety.

[Capt Turbo]

Fatbus, I hope you are sticking to the more regular destinations, ´cause had you tried to come into DEL with a Specific Bomb Threat that evening, you would have ended up with some Russian hardware in your tailpipe. It was as close to a war zone as it comes without dogfights, and knowing from the locals the amount of SAMs and MIGs being deployed it is Incredible that nobody repeated the opening scene from the classic film "The Party" :}.
Nice to sit in an armchair in Dubai or in Norhalne polishing the ego but not as much fun as doing evasive maneuvres down the final to DEL as we had to do that night :E. NOTAM or ATIS? No, that would have given too much clue about what to come next, and you don´t do that when you expect to be under attack :=. Paranoia? India has more terror related killings than the rest of the world combined (look up the statistics), so the percieved threat is very present. Flight safety? Some day it will hopefully take precedence over Security and Politics, but that day will not come until a lot of fundamentals have changed in this part of the world :ugh:.
Come and enjoy the Commonwealth Games; there are lots of vacant hotel rooms and seats in DEL: War tourism has yet to gain in popularity :\.
T.

[Vld1977]

I recall an incident a year ago where an aeroflot aircraft with a medical emergency was denied landing in the US and had to land in Canada. The reason given was that the flight had departed from Cuba.

I don´t remember the whole story, and I imagine that a medical emergency is not a bomb threat, but I remember reading in the papers that it is the US policy to deny landing to any aircraft, of any airline, coming from Cuba, even in case of an emergency. Is this true?

[Wannabe Flyer]

OPLA (Lahore) would have been the nearest one it seems that only airline requirement due crew change available was catered for not safety.

I think that says it all!!! So maybe SQ should respond

[SKS777FLYER]

Vid1977I recall an incident a year ago where an aeroflot aircraft with a medical emergency was denied landing in the US and had to land in Canada. The reason given was that the flight had departed from Cuba.

I don´t remember the whole story, and I imagine that a medical emergency is not a bomb threat, but I remember reading in the papers that it is the US policy to deny landing to any aircraft, of any airline, coming from Cuba, even in case of an emergency. Is this true?

Don't know, but I do know that several U.S. carriers have regular service between the U.S. and Cuba. American Airlines flew a daily 727 back in the 90's to Jose Marti from Miami. The flights operated as Special Authorization Charters and as far as I know AA still has some flights to Cuba from Mia along with American Eagle.
Also, for decades now, U.S. air Carriers have traversed across Cuban airspace mostly for cities on the South American continent. Don't know what the ATC charges are these days, but back in the early 90's, the charges were about $165 each way per flight. The Cuban controllers were, I think among the top tier of controllers thruout North, Central and South America. Effecient and generally helpful, offering direct routings on request and often offering direct routings on initial contact with Havana Center.

[Wannabe Flyer]

I recall an incident a year ago where an aeroflot aircraft with a medical emergency was denied landing in the US and had to land in Canada. The reason given was that the flight had departed from Cuba.

Aeroflot A332 over Atlantic on Oct 8th 2009, medical emergency refused by USA (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360257/posts)

Delhi ATC should be hung

By equality so should JFK!!!