BA LHR Mix Fleet?

[c_hostie]

Hiya guys just wondering if anyone can give me some info, I have been looking at the future talent crew jobs with the new mix fleet at lhr. I think this will be similar to what they have at lgw, but i have heard a rumour that days off will be used up downroute during actual trips rather than being allocated between trips back at base. Anyone know for sure? Thanks :ok:

[Betty girl]

BA have said that, that wont be happening. I think days off per month are reduced if you have annual leave in a months roster. I don't know the details tho of how many days off are removed for how much leave.

[Channex101]

Just to let you know about something in the contract that would worry me.

BA can give you 7 days notice and place you on upto 6 months unpaid leave.
So another ash cloud, swine flu, 9/11 and your skint for 6 months, but since your technically employed not sure how it goes claiming JSA!

[Hand Solo]

In the world outside BA what employers do when a downturn strikes is make people compulsorily redundant, so I don't think a stand down clause, if it exists in that highly questionable form, places you in any worse position than anywhere else.

[tomkins]

Hand Solo
ever hear of redundancy payments? In the real world if u are laid off there is a statutory formula for calculating your redundancy payment.You would get a lump sum and could move on. In a worse case scenario BA could lay you off for up to six months , take you back and lay u off again ad infinitum.A very unsecure position....n'est pas?

[Yellow Pen]

I'd say it's a highly tenous position legally too! Has anyone actually seen one of these contracts or is this yet more crewmour? One of the basic tenets of contract law is that the contract has to be fair to both parties. Should BA attempt to enforce a contract which allows them to lay people off, without pay, for 6 months but retain contractual control over them throughout it would be laughed out of the first court or tribunal it came to. Furthermore, how would BA attempt to get around the requirement to pay a legal minimum wage to it's employees? That is a fundamental right and cannot be signed away by contract. Until such time as somebody provides us with the actual text of the contract rather than some hearsay spread by BASSA acolytes who desperately want it to be true then I'm afraid that claim will warrant a high score on the BS scale.

[bagsybtmbunk]

It's on the other forum cc.com BA page 2 MF Contract/ Clause 3 and Clause 13 (http://cabincrew.com/ccnetwork/forum_posts.asp?TID=39513)

[Colonel White]

Um... no. what is on the CCforum is someone's posting about the contract. I'd be wary about jumping to conclusions without seeing the actual text and context. There is also what purports to be a response from someone in BA that suggests that in the past 10 years there have been no lay-offs

[VS-LHRCSA]

No, there haven't been lay offs but there have been a number of times where, given the opportunity, there would have been, eg: post 9/11.

The concern is that these clauses will allow the company to do with MF crews that they could not do in the past.

[Betty girl]

Colonel White,
These people are not BA employees and have no axe to grind. They are showing genuine concern for a contract that does have a layoff clause in it.
It also has a one week notice clause by BA but the crew member has to give 4 weeks and it also has a clause in it that the crew can be used to work on the ground if BA requires it.
Many people are signing it because they want to be cabin crew but many who work for other airlines, like Virgin, are worried about these clauses, as are some of the BA temps.
I am sure there will be a never ending supply of people that want to be crew but I can assure you that some people have been put off by these clauses and some people have actually left the training courses already because they are unhappy with the Mixed Fleet regime and that is something that I don't think has ever happened before.

[Yellow Pen]

It seems a bit premature to dislike the mixed-fleet 'regime' when it's not even flying yet. I know there's a crewmour going round BASSA circles about a manager being given a hard time at Cranebank by some trainees, however it there's any truth in it it seems to me to be the trainees fault for not adequately researching what they signed up for! The clauses in the contract are most interesting and I shall ask some employment lawyer contacts of mine for their general view, but as I said earlier, an employment contract must be fair to both parties. BA can write as many lopsided notice and stand down clauses in as they like, but if the contract does not appear fair to a tribunal or judge then it will not be enforceable.

[Betty girl]

The 'regime' starts from day one of the training course. I have no idea personally what it is like on Mixed fleet only what I have heard and that is that they are constantly being told that they are 'the elite' and that it is very strict.
All I can say is that these clauses are in the contract and some crew have left.
I am sure that there are many that are very happy and I hope it is great for them. I personally know some really nice crew that have gone over as CSMs so I want it to be good for them.

[elldee]

I can tell you now, at no point what so ever during my training on Mixed Fleet have I, or any other of my fellow trainees been told we are 'elite' (or special, more important or better than anyone else) :yuk: We dont feel like we are either. We look up to current crew and admire them as experienced professionals.

The uniform standards are very strict and we aren't allowed certain things like trousers for the girls anymore. The hats.... well, we all know how each other feels about them. Personally I would rather MF, WW & EF could either all have them or not at all. I see the hats as being an easy and obvious way to segregate us from each other which in my mind is causing unnecessary 'us and them' feelings.

We were all in the hold pool for 1-2 years and applied for this job before Mixed Fleet was an option (our only option now). Some have been re interviewed and been accepted,some were interviewed and unfortunately weren't successful. Some didnt even bother going to second interviews when they saw the pay scale. We just want to work for BA, like all of you. No, the pays not great - but that's the offer, take it or leave it! The contract is what it is, we took it at face value and signed the dotted line, I still see it as a good opportunity.

Thats all I have to say, I cant wait to start flying ;)

*Edited to add, I am training as Cabin Crew!!

[Betty girl]

elldee,
Welcome to BA and I truly wish you a great and enjoyable career in BA.

I have been in BA for 22 years and loved every minute of it.

I hope you enjoy working as cabin crew too.

I am glad you enjoyed your course and I look forward to seeing you in the CRC. What I said about MFCrew being told they were elite did happen to someone I know but maybe they were on a different training course to you. No offence meant to any Mixed Fleet Crew.

[Flytoserve]

Elldee - are you saying that the clause does exist in the contract? Can you post it here for us to read directly?


I doubt very much any Employment lawyer worth their salt would suggest that anyone signs a contract on the basis that they can always take it to court at a later date! It is ludicrous to suggest people be so naive about signing a legal document.

[Yellow Pen]

I agree, no employment lawyer would be likely to suggest that course of action, but that is an entirely different issue to whether the contract is fair or not. If it's the only contract available to you right now what you do?

[ptc]

There were 2 groups on day 1 of MF, and I can assure you all that in my group we were told that we were the "elite' crew! I completely disagree with us been
brainwashed to think that we are elite as there are some excellent main crew out there!

[Human Factor]

If it's the only contract available to you right now what you do?

Either sign it or don't. No one is being forced to sign it simply because no one is being forced to join. If you want the job, you'll sign it. Simples.:rolleyes:

[blue____]

ptc


well you have said it... there are SOME brilliant crew on current fleets... on MF everyone will be brilliant. And if this brings on the adjective "elite" following our fleet, so be it.

the s word didn't seem to bother people, why should the "elite" do???

[tomkins]

blue
you are having a laugh ? No? Could you just explain to us why BA think that you, as cabincrew who have probably just accepted the worst employment contract on the market, could be described as "elite".Have they taken the S.A.S on to train you?

[Yellow Pen]

Perhaps they'll get a superior quality of training, from a third party company rather, than the tired old "What's the bit called between the **** and the ****hole" jokes, or the "Don't talk to the pilots" rant? Perhaps they'll get better SEP training than the shambolic stuff we see at the moment? Perhaps it's because they've applied for the job knowing they're not going to get the huge overtime and allowance payments that have attracted candidates in previous years yet they still want to do it? Perhaps because they are a small fleet you'll see cameraderie and esprit de corps reflected in their customer service rather than having a bunch of tired old militants, angry at the world, snarling their way through the service before dashing off to the bunks ASAP? Perhaps because their performance management (does that even exist in IFCE?) means they can't get away with being below lazy, and thus the dreaded inconsistency in cabin service which BA has been unable to shake off might finally be defeated? Just a few ideas.

[tomkins]

Lots of perhaps' there Yellowpen and even if all that were true,still can't get my head round the use of the word "elite".......sounds like typical BA brainwashing to me.

[Betty girl]

blue,

What makes you think everyone will be brilliant. Do you think BA have previously recruited people that they think wont be brilliant.

Your attitude sums up exactly the kind of ridiculouse brainwashing that has been going on at crainbank.

Lets just hope for all our sakes that most will be more like elldee and ptc.

[Betty girl]

Yellow pen,
We must work for different airlines because I don't recognise anything you say.

You come accross as a very bitter person.

[tomkins]

Agree with you there Bettygirl.
Definition of "brilliant"-very splendid or distinguished having keen intelligence , great talent or skill.
Definition of "elite"-group or part thereof selected or regarded as the finest , best , most distinguished , most powerfull.
I'm sorry but these definitions cannot surely be used to describe Mid Fleet or any other fleet.There maybe someone out there in the worldwide cabincrew community about whom these terms could be used but they must be very rare individuals.
Most of us are just love our job and are good at it (we hope).

[Betty girl]

Yellow pen,

Just been told by another crew member that two of the new CSMs on Mixed fleet were actually strikers.

These are your new elite crew then!!!

See the truth is that we are all just crew, some are excellent, some are good, some are bad, some are militant and some are great in an interview. Mixed fleet will be just the same, a big mix of humanity. Just the same as current crew, except they will have a smart hat and earn less.

[Marty172]

The reality is that crew on MF will not necessarily be "elite" or superior to crew on other fleets...but this is management trying to slightly modify the mentality and culture for BA cabin crew as MF will eventually become the largest CC fleet in the company (though this will obviousely take quite a few years). There are some fantastic crew on EF, WW & SFLGW - on a good flight the crew can beat the competition hands down. But yes there are some who don't really care for the job anymore and stay because the money/ perks are good and they would find it hard to get something similar with the same benefits. BA are using the launch of a new fleet as an opportunity to try instill a new culture amongst it's crew, that they are "elite" professionals. Whether they intend to financially reward them as "professionals" is another story, but I really don't think existing BA crew should take offence by stories of MF crew being told they are better than everyone else as it's not the reality.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Just been told by another crew member that two of the new CSMs on Mixed fleet were actually strikers.

So, they went on strike in an attempt to prevent erosion of terms and conditions and then...accepted a contract with worse terms and conditions than they were on?:confused:

I don't doubt your information Betty but does that not appear a bit odd to you?

[tomkins]

They were probably main crew on a basic of £11000,who decided that a basic of £29000 was better for their bank account.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Right! But it's not a basic of 29 though is it.

Do you know the answer tomkins or are you just guessing?

[Betty girl]

CSM's are on a basic of £24k and yes I do think it strange. I know that many crew that did not strike are furious but it is against the law to discriminate against people who strike.

I only mentioned it because there seem to be a lot of people on Pprune that seem to think that crew on Mixed fleet are somehow going to be the most fantastic crew in the world.

The truth is that they will all be very keen because they will predominantly be new crew but in reality they will all develop the same flaws as any other crew do. You will get a mixture of great crew and OK crew just like any other fleet or airline for that matter.

BA cabin crew have won many awards over the years and in general the majority of BA crew are incredibly professional. You always get the odd lazy crew member but if you listened to some of the posters on Pprune you would think we were all a bunch of lazy militants and that is just not a true picture at all.

[Sporran]

I would be very surprised if a 'striker' got the job as a CSM.

What happened to the change of ethos!!:sad:

[tomkins]

I had heard that they had upped the basic to £29000 as they were having problems getting the quality of csms that they were hoping for.Gonna check it out now.

[Betty girl]

Sporan,
How will they know if they striked or not in Recruitment and Selection Dept. To apply for CSM you just had to submit an application and go through an interview.

It is against the law to hold lists of or to discriminate against Strikers.

The interview involved a 2 to 1 interview where the candidate had to answer questions, a lot of role play situations and a presentation by the candidate to some of the selectors. By all accounts it was an incredibly intensive interview and I am sure all the candidates who passed it, deserved to.

How would the selectors have been able to tell if the candidate had striked or not?

I am surprised, that the people that striked went for the job but you have to remember that this is now the only way to get promotion as it will be almost non existent on WW or E/F

[tomkins]

I am right!!!
Lord Spandex Masher and Betty girl.New basic for mid fleet csm is £29000 go check on BA.com

[Lord Spandex Masher]

tomkins, on the beoutstanding website it says the package starts at 29 which includes EHP. So not basic.

[Betty girl]

It say the ''total package'' starts at 29K.

This includes the £2.40 per hour that BA anticipate you will earn as well as your basic.

The ad was modified a few weeks after recruitment started because not many senior crew from other airlines were responding to the £24K.

If you look at the main crew site it says they will earn 19K. Which is £6K more than current crew basic!!!!!!

As I actually know people who have got mixed fleet please take my word that the basic is £24K plus 2.40 per hour flight pay which BA estimate will equate to £29K.

[tomkins]

:uhoh:Sorry just gonna crawl back into my hole.

[Tiramisu]

LSM said,
So, they went on strike in an attempt to prevent erosion of terms and conditions and then...accepted a contract with worse terms and conditions than they were on?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

I don't doubt your information Betty but does that not appear a bit odd to you?

LSM,
Betty Girl is 100% correct. I know two who have got the job.
BA are not allowed to discriminate.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Tiramisu,

Don't misunderstand me, I don't question the accuracy of the information.

It just seems a bit odd, to me, that one day you're on strike berating BA and Willie and the next you apply for and happily accept a package which is one of the reasons you went on strike in the first place. A moral about turn?!







P.S. You're one of my favourite after dinner treats;)

[Tiramisu]

It just seems a bit odd, to me, that one day you're on strike berating BA and Willie and the next you apply for and happily accept a package which is one of the reasons you went on strike in the first place. A moral about turn?!

LSM,
I find it rather confusing too. As they say, "there's none so queer as folk."


PS. I make the best Tiramisu!;)

[Sporran]

Betty Girl,

There is a big difference betweening discriminating and using a persons judgement!

BA must have a list of those people who did not turn up for work because they required that info to stop that persons pay. It has been deemed to be totally acceptable to have such a list - otherwise they would not know who to deduct the appropriate level of pay from. That info should be available for appropriate use to other departments in BA.

If the info that two 'strikers' got jobs as CSMs is correct I am VERY disappointed as I believe it sends totally the wrong message. I sincerely hope that the matter is pursued and appropriate 'action' taken.

[MIDLGW]

I know one from the "regular" fleet who got the CSM role. I guess this person has seen the light, so to speak. People can change their minds, and although I don't neccessarily understand their decision, I wish them the very best of luck.

[TheKabaka]

It is illegal to share "blacklists" of employees between employers. I do no think it is illegal to have a list of your own staff who went on strike. How did they know who's pay to dock or staff travel to stop without a list. I am sure if it was clearly illegal unite would have had something to say about it.

In short it is ok for a company to know which of its staff went on strike, but not to start passing that list around to other companies.

[Betty girl]

Sporran,

That's the whole point, you can only hold a list for a specific reason ie. pay deductions and in BA's case staff travel removal. You are not allowed to use a list of strikers to discriminate against them and I believe promotion is used as an example of this in the legislation.

Are you saying that had the pilots gone on strike a couple of years ago that none of the FOs would be allowed to go for Captain in the future. I know that it never came to a situation where any pilots had to actually strike but many did vote to.

Large companies like BA don't use managers recommendations for promotion because that system can be inherently unfair. The system starts off by requiring a particular skill set. Then the candidate gets an interview and if they can answer the questions and do a presentation and perform well in various scenarios, they get the job. No one would have known in the interview if they had striked or not. That is the way all large companies work.

Whether you think it is right or wrong, it is definitely illegal to discriminate against any one that went on strike.

[Wirbelsturm]

Personally, I don't see any problem with someone who voted for and took IA over the management wanting to impose change, based upon ill-informed information and bias from the Union, and then applying for another role. Perhaps that person, with 20/20 hindsight, realised how inappropriate the action was and decided that change was required.

As long as that person is fully aware and self briefed as to what the conditions, terms and rules of the new position are and agree to abide by them then what happened historically is irrelevant.

Good luck to them, I look forward to flying with the new crew as well as the 'old'!

[Betty girl]

Thanks Wirbelsturm,

I have a great relationship with all the pilots on the airbus and I really hope it continues.

One of my fears is that pilots will be dissapointed if it is not a Mixed Fleet crew they are working with and I would hate that to happen.

I am pleased that you will still look forward to flying with us oldies, although I have heard that it is a real mix of older and younger crew on Mixed Fleet too.

Many thanks

[Juan Tugoh]

Like Wiblesturm, I too believe that someone should be able to change their mind as the situation changes and evolves. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to believe that there was a real justification for striking to then to change their mind. This is not a bad thing, it is something that as flying crew we are taught in CRM training. Events change, holding an inflexible viewpoint is not always a good thing.

The press (and political) attitude that someone has performed a U-turn and has therefore demonstrated weakness or that to change one's mind is somehow aberrant behaviour has no place in reality. It may well be good to have a consistent opinion, but only if events do not invalidate it.

I would welcome an ex-striker as a member of MF. I think it takes more personal, moral courage to admit that you got something wrong and change it, than to shamelessly blunder on stubbornly, refusing to accept you were wrong.

Thank heavens I am perfect and never get things wrong;)

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Betty Girl, after only 2 days of MF, I'm afraid your fears are already coming true. Pilots are already eulogising about how much better MF are to work with. I am afraid the bad apples in your ranks are dragging down the reputations of the majority.

[Betty girl]

P-T Gamekeeper,
That's very sad but I hope all the pilots that I fly with will still enjoy my flights.

[MrBernoulli]

Pilots are already eulogising about how much better MF are to work with.The pilots can't really be blamed for that reaction! :ok:

I guess it is a refreshing change to get a working relationship, right from the start of the working day, that one expects and can account for. It creates the correct professional atmosphere, is more pleasant to operate in, and consequently makes the entire trip easier, even if outside influences conspire to delay or otherwise interfere with the schedule. I hasten to add that many of the legacy crew do the same, ..... but a notable portion of them don't. This latter group are a pain in the arse, but on the whole can just be given a good ignoring!