Any advice for ICAO english test?

[Soave_Pilot]

Hello Folks,

I'm about to take the ICAO english test 2 weeks from now in São Paulo, does anyone have any advice for me?

I'm a Heli pilot, and I know the test is more geared towards the fixed wing world, just wondering if that will be a problem for me?

Having lived abroad for 7 years, I hope to get that level 6. We'll see.

[NightWolf]

As far as I know it is sort of an interview where they ask scenarios about you flying as pilot in command responding to ATC or a ground operations handler. For example "Say you are on approach to land and the tower says there has been an accident on the runway 12 and ATC asked you to go around. What would be your response?" ..........Ans. N123AB in the missed approach. Remember they only want to see if you understand the language.

Good luck with the exam it is fairly easy :ok:

[alemaobaiano]

Just a few things to consider...

Listen carefully and respond to the question being asked.

Keep your answers concise and relevant, rambling on is as bad as not answering.

Pay attention to verb tenses, you don't need to use obscure compound tenses for a 6, but you need to get the ones you do use right.

If you don't understand something, ask for a repeat. One repeat shouldn't be penalised.

When describing the picture, only state for a fact what you know to be correct, if you can't tell a 747 from a 380 ;) call it a four engined aircraft.

Don't argue with the examiner. :=

You're correct in that it is mainly based on fixed wing operations, but there shouldn't be anything there that would cause problems for any competent pilot. Remember that it's a test of your Aviation English not your technical knowledge.

If you didn't take a specialist course I would suggest doing a mock test at one of the aviation schools. It's relatively cheap and will give you an idea of what's in store on the day.

I used to teach at a specialist aviation English school, and unless things have changed drastically in the last 18 months I know three of the examiners in SP. Contrary to popular belief they are not out to trap you and they don't have a quota.

Good luck

[Farrell]

No quotas. Nothing to be afraid of.

Assuming that it is just an Oral Proficiency Interview, the questions will be general to an extent but will also cover areas like your working environment, met, human factors and abnormal / emergency situations.

Relax and enjoy it - be yourself.

Farrell

[joe grind]

If your English written skills are any indication,
There's a good chance that you will be more proficiant than the examiner!
Don't sweat it.

[varigflier]

If you lived abroad for 7 years you shouldn't be worried about it.:ok:

[flyingswiss]

The lady that gave me the test at ANAC in SP, asked me personal informations, we made a PILOT-ATC simulation, she made me simulate a call to the passengers and that was about it.

The test is a joke, and it does not meet ICAO standards. The worst part is that it's really subjective....

[Soave_Pilot]

Ok guys, thanks for the info. I'll let you know how the test goes.

SP :ok:

[Squawk7777]

The test is a joke, and it does not meet ICAO standards.

Quick question: Do you have any reference what the ICAO standards are?

[alemaobaiano]

The test is a joke, and it does not meet ICAO standards. The worst part is that it's really subjective....

Did you pass?

The ANAC test was not developed in isolation and is very similar to tests carried out in many other parts of the world, all of which should meet the requirements of ICAO. While it may be subjective, the grading is based on the ICAO guidelines provided to all national aviation authorities.

The requirements for each level can be found here www.aviationmanagement.aero/.../ICAOLanguageProficiencyScale.pdf

There is also the implementation manual available at www.icea.gov.br/ead/epli/docs/Doc9835.pdf

The idea of asking about personal subjects is to relax the candidate and have them talk about a subject that they know well, themselves. Some people suffer from stress during tests, particularly when failure could have a severe impact on their career.

TTFN

[TOFFAIR]

Im not sure, but it seems to me those test are being caried out on different manners and levels of competece here in Brazil. For what i can say, as I did the test it was exactly in the way discribed by the document refering to it. But i have heard, especially when it comes to tests done by the companies there might be some discreptancies of the normal. One former check person from Variglog is supposed to get caught "selling" the tests (~2 years ago). From what I heard now, people have to pay to take the test, so its getting a business and in order to keep that people get a 4 even with just broken knowledge, then are expected to repeat the test periodically like a medical...
I know guys with ICAO 4 and 5 whose English is miserable, on the other hand tam seems to hv problems to find enough skippers proficient enough to get the birds over the pond. I just hope ANAC get this into its gripp by time before we all get discredited.
Funny, on my license it states that i have ICAO Portuguese 6 although i have never taken a test for that...

[alemaobaiano]

Toffair

There were, and probably still are, people selling grades. I have seen students that didn't deserve a 2 go away for a little while and come back with a 4 :*

This was happening with individuals and training centres authorised to carry out the tests, not within ANAC itself. How they obtained that authorisation is another question, to which you and I probably know the answer. ANAC does take action against these practices, and more quickly than you might think, but it's a nice little earner so there is always someone else ready to take over.

It's been 18 months since I was involved in teaching for the ICAO test so things might have changed, but, the last I knew, you could only take the test in São Paulo at the TAM academy or ANAC, a measure taken in response to the grades being sold elsewhere. All tests are recorded and stored for review by ICAO should they ever feel the need to review anything, so irregularities will come to light eventually.

Weird, I just defended ANAC :\

TTFN

[flyingswiss]

Got a 6, and it was free.

I did the English test also in Europe, btw ANAC did not Accept It. I also had to do it when I applied for an airline job, and there was a pretty hard written part. I also have it on my FAA license, which according to the peoples I spoke to should grant me a level 4 during a license conversion, in fact none of my students that went back to Europe from the US had to take the test, as long as you are happy with a 4?!?!

The test in Europe it's a total different story, much harder. It's computer based you have to listen to a ton of ATC comm, they use Indian pilots!!! go figure.

[alemaobaiano]

The test in Europe it's a total different story, much harder.

Now that rather depends on which country in Europe we are talking about doesn't it? The test in some European states is almost certainly harder, however in some countries the test is almost non-existent :rolleyes:

TTFN

[varigflier]

The same thing happened to me. ANAC didn't accept mine and I had to do it in Sao Paulo again.:ugh:

[Willie Everlearn]

then...
you show up for training at an 'english speaking' Training Center outside your home country for your type rating.
Your documentation, submitted before that training begins, says you have Level 4 English proficiency. (Never mind level 6)
The English speaking instructor starts your training (remember English is his/her 1st language) and it becomes very obvious during briefings, training and debriefings that your English level is less than at least level 4.

What happens?

Well, you stop training, report it to the candidates licensing authority and wait for instructions as to what to do with the trainee and who gets the refund.

Personally? I'd make sure I had the appropriate level of English proficiency unless you train in your home country where most authority figures and examiners could care less about the english language and you intend to spend the majority of your time flying in your home country where English is an unnecessary inconvenience.
Why do I say that?
Because most countries where the primary language isn't English allow their pilots to communicate over VHF comms in their mother tongue and/or English. Backseat english has now been elevated to at least level 4.

Good luck, and safe flying...

Willie :ok:

[varigflier]

You hit the nail in the head.:ok:

[Soave_Pilot]

Just got infomed today that I got rated as level 5, I kinda got irritated about that... since I speak english fluently, (makes me wonder now, uh?) even better than the person who tested me.:cool:

What I've heard is that they don't have a consistent way to evaluate candidates, some pilots who never lived abroad have gotten level 6 sometimes.

[TOFFAIR]

Where did you take the test?

[TOFFAIR]

I think there is a tendency of now keeping the "business", those who test will be happy to charge you again in 2 years and keep you as a customer...
Wouldnt be surprised to see it getting to be introduced as a regular exercise just as the medical (CCF) where they check you everytime for colourblindness (ever heard sm1 changed? exept in China:suspect:)

[varigflier]

Welcome to Brazil soave pilot. You just experienced the system at its best.:ugh:

[Soave_Pilot]

Yeah... Just ride the flow I guess.

I took the test at EJ Jundiaí.

[LX-GB1]

Maybe I missed it in the thread, but ICAO has an FAQ document which gives guidance on evaluating proficiency.

ICAO | FLS | FAQs (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#29)

Rgds

[TOFFAIR]

You are right about ICAO FAQ, etc...
The problem is ICAO itself, as you know its an Organisation, not an Authority, and as such it can only issue recomendations subjected to local authorities, who ratify them or not or create exemptions. And it is to the local authorities to certify and regulate all issues, in this case you come down to a ANAC level in Brazil! To get a clue how bad it can be, the top positions in this Civil Aviation Agency are not filled by people who are competent or knowledgeable about the issue, but some darlings of the ruling party. :{ Given the quality of the government elected we cannot expect anything good coming from it :ouch:.:oh::oh::oh::mad:!

[Soave_Pilot]

I agree with you Toffair! And look who is charge of ANAC, a lady who barely has an aviation background the run the circus... Nothing against women, but against of someone not having a decent aviation background who has been in field and experienced our problems and frustrations in the past and present, to make things better... And looks like she's gonna stay in that nice cold office sitting on her leather chair for the next 4-8 years... :cool:

And regarding the ICAO Engl. test I've come to realize that when you take the test in testing centers who are afiliated with anac, the score the give you is the one you will probably end up with, Anac doesn't change anything... interesting uh? They do anything to run away from work I guess. And the testing centers... they keep their business coming! Great vicious circle!:{

[TOFFAIR]

Yes, I think you are right! You're get the spirit of how things run over here...
Best thing you should do is enjoy your flights the most you can, dont think too much about those hurdles. If you, re in the Amazon, dont miss the oportunity to find an excuse to make a low flight over the Anavilhanas when coming to MAO, its just amazing all those islands and beaches on the Rio Negro...

[HURZ]

Bom dia,

I´m coming to Brazil on regular basis and I´m wondering if there is any minimum English skills required for ATC controllers??? Again and again I´m surprised about the low level of english spoken here e.g. GRU appch or CWB. Who is testing ATC? Is it done internally? Are we going down the same road as the chinese do (all are level 6!!! in the cockpit)?

Dear fellow pilots in this lovely country, could you re-consider speaking english with ATC? Would make things safer in terms of situational awarness for the other crews and would train ATC...

Feliz navidad e um boa ano novo from a non native English and non native Brazilian.

[LX-GB1]

Does this help? It's from DOC 9835

5.3 DEMONSTRATION OF PROFICIENCY AT THE EXPERT LEVEL
5.3.1 Language proficiency at “both ends” of a proficiency scale is relatively easy to discern. It is not
difficult to recognize “Expert” or “native” or “native-like” proficiency, and for that reason the assessment at
Level 6 does not necessarily need to be carried out by a language testing specialist. Native speakers of the
language should be considered expert speakers provided they use a dialect or accent that is intelligible to
the aeronautical community. Expert speakers also include multilingual speakers who include the language
as one of their “native” languages, and foreign-language speakers who have acquired Expert proficiency,
through either educational background, extensive work experience in the language, or some other extensive
contact with the language. Recognition of “Expert” proficiency can be based on the documentation of such
experiences, or it can occur during training or as part of the evaluation of training. The person responsible
for documenting “Expert” language proficiency does not need to be a specialist but should be familiar with
the relevant applicable Standards and should be able to recognize when there is a need to refer the
applicant to specialized language testing.
5.3.2 Although the relative facility to assess proficiency at the Expert level allows flexibility in the way
the assessment is made, the demonstration of language proficiency is an element of the formal process that
leads toward the issuance of a pilot or an air traffic controller licence. It is therefore important that each State
establish appropriate procedures and ensure that the results of the assessment are properly documented,
whether done through specialized testing, through the documentation of appropriate experience in the
language, or on the basis of observation of Expert proficiency during training.

Rgds

PS Feliz Natal e um bom Ano Novo :)

[Soave_Pilot]

I´m coming to Brazil on regular basis and I´m wondering if there is any minimum English skills required for ATC controllers??? Again and again I´m surprised about the low level of english spoken here e.g. GRU appch or CWB.

If you think these controllers down south are bad... come up north and you will see what the real low level english is. :}:}

[TOFFAIR]

I try to keep English on the ATC, but more then often get the other side answering or calling me on Portuguese, I guess by the principle of "Brazilian Callsign", should handle this. The worst Controllers are certainly in Rio, arogant and dismotivated to speak English. Many times they seem to ignore your call and get Portuguese speaking AC served first.
@Hurz: You'll be flying to SBEG next as well, right? This way you"ll have to deal with all Brazilian regions... FIR Amazonico may be bad radio quality, but controllers are more used to US traffic...

[HURZ]

@soavw: I know the northeast a bit. some years ago i was quite happy that I knew some basic portoguese language skills since I had to do the the whole appch in portugese going into REC. My F/O was completely out of the picture and I had to tell him what ATC just said (ATC was not even able to say yes or no). O.K. this was in the middle of the of the night and the 2nd class contoller was on duty not even having the basic english skills...

@toffair: I appreciate your efforts talking english to the controllers... Why don´t you just reply in english when they try to get to you in portuguese? We, or our companys pay and ATC has to provide the service expected. E.g. going into PNZ with other traffic around at an uncontolled airfield a common language is of utmost importance in order to improve flight safety.

I´m sure that you, the brazilan pilots can do ATC in english. Please start or continue doing so like the greek pilots did 15 years ago. The number of "close calls" reduced dramatically in Greece since everybody could understand each other... In the interst of safety all carriers in Brasil should change their ops manuals to have english the only language used in ATC language.

Ate logo,

HURZ

[flyingswiss]

The problem with speaking Portuguese is also that controllers here can't standardize phonetics, or in the case of Portuguese from Portugal (TAP..) use words that have different meaning, remember when TAP flight landed on the taxiway in GRU? It was the pilots fault at the end but the controller could not help them due to the fact they were not speaking a standardized language to each other...

It's really sad Brazil can't fix this, and make English mandatory on freq, according to ICAO the best Communication quality is in country where English is not native, I think Japan leads, so why can't Brazil do the same?

[TOFFAIR]

@ Hurz: actually this is exactly what I do, to the point we keep a dialog in two different languages. What pisses me off is when they start either ignoring my calls or bypassing. A colleague told me the other day he called in 5 times, switched to the back up frequency and the same situation he called and everyone else was getting answers but him, then he said he was transmitting blind his intentions and sqacked 7600, you cant imagine how quick he got an answer! I think we should use this mean even when its a virtual Lost Com to alert that a congested frequency is actually a lost comm situation.
Other thing is, you have a congested frequency in SP Area, and all flying IFR and they give you nonesense traffic information...:ugh::ugh::ugh:
A captain suggested to improve things in aviation in Brazil, instead of bringing in foreign pilots we should substitute ATC with foreign controllers (obviously not French, Spaniards, Greek, etc):}

[flyingswiss]

A captain suggested to improve things in aviation in Brazil, instead of bringing in foreign pilots we should substitute ATC with foreign controllers

This is a really good point, it has actually been done before in many places around the world, the problem is that there are no ATC peoples, they are really few compared to how many unemployed pilots there are around the world. How much would they get paid in Brazil? in most places they make more then senior Capts....

TOFF I`m in CH need anything?

[alemaobaiano]

This is a really good point, it has actually been done before in many places around the world, the problem is that there are no ATC peoples, they are really few compared to how many unemployed pilots there are around the world. How much would they get paid in Brazil? in most places they make more then senior Capts....

It would probably be easier bringing in English speaking ATC, but as you say the salary here wouldn't attract many people. There is a reason most controllers have one or two extra jobs, and it's not because they're workaholics :ugh:

The salary is also one reason for the poor showing in English. Whereas most pilots earn at least a living wage and can therefore afford private lessons, controllers generally lack both money and time to do the same. Some time ago I saw the budget allocated for teaching controllers to the minimum English standard and frankly it was utterly ridiculous.

Aviation safety is done on the cheap and the politicians have just voted themselves a 73% pay rise....:ugh:

TTFN