Aero addicts: chute or no chute?

[paulo]

I'm about 10 hours into my aeros. Instructor doesn't wear a chute, and neither do I. We're flying a Robin 2160, +6/-3.5, and generally peaking at +4.5 on most sorties. Typical alt range is 2500 to 3500.

any thoughts? if you have a chute (and a two seater), what do you do if you want take a passenger?

[Intersection]

Hey Paulo,

Well in your case you will have think about what sort of aeros you are doing. What are the limitations of the a/c?.

If you are asking about which chutes will fit who?, well the answer to that is that most parachutes will fit anyone so that will not be a prob. If you have a a/c you will have a parachute for every seat (thats sensible). Don't know even if it is worth having a chute in the first place though?.


Keep Looping the Loop though!!!!

Yours,
Int

[M14P]

Well, it's all about time available. If you're too low to start with the chute is just about useless - I'm not talking about opening times just thinking/jumping time.

Personally I hope that it will just be the most expensive cushion money can buy; I keep it regularly repacked and preflight it too but I see the main scenarios in order of likelihood for use as:

1. Structural failure
2. Midair Collision (for formation)
3. Fire in the cockpit
4. Unrecoverable flight regime
5. An alternative to ditching

One has to consider the aircraft type very carefully before choosing the chute (in terms of max opening speeds).

Ultimately, I will not do aeros without one in an aircraft that I stand a reasonable chance of extracting myself from. It is also a must to rehearse the act of getting out in a hurry (bloomin' difficult in some machines!)

[Southern Cross]

Chute. Always. For the same reasons as M14P. Its an option that you may or may not have time / opportunity to use. However, the only thing that is absolutely certain, is that without one, you have no jumping option...

[paulo]

Intersection - The Aircraft is a 2 year old metal side-by-side two seat low wing, 160hp, rated to +6 and -3.5

We're pretty much only flying pos. figures, and haven't gone beyond +4.5; It's a school aircraft, the club itself doesn't have chutes, and none of the members seem to bring their own. I'm not sure if this is a brit thing, a club thing, a 'only-flying-a-trainer' thing.

Certainly our british aero comp regs don't require them.

Maybe I should see if the club can be persuaded to buy a pair of chutes. It would seem daft for each member to be buying one. Otherwise it's a very expensive cushion that I might just have to buy.

[foxmoth]

One problem you might havr is fitting in the seat wearing one,many a/c seats are not designed with this in mind, if this is not a problem and you have a chute wear it. Personaly though I would not go out and specially buy one.

[I have control]

Wear a chute.

I have been reading Sport Aerobatics magazine every month for a couple of years, every month they have a detailed analysis of aerobatics related accidents.

I have seen descriptions of all of the scenarios mentioned above happening to real people, and real lives have been saved.

Spend the money & buy a good chute. In a while you will have forgotten the financial hit and can simply savour the beautiful peace of mind.

[paulo]

Hmmm. I've been doing some digging on the NTSB site, for accidents with aeros. Chutes have indeed saved a few fortunate souls. Heavily outnumbered by those who lost their lives to structural failures - what %ge of them had chutes and didn't bail isn't clear. Overall a glance, it appears the biggest category was foolishness altitude/alcohol/drugs. One was a PA-28 of all things. Quite sad.

I think I'll see what the club has to say. Otherwise I get my own.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The Yak has Russian 'seat pan' chutes. I don't know if they'd work, but they are better than nothing. Does anyone have experience of seat pan chutes for a Chippy? How much, what body weight will they take etc?

If you take pax, you'd need 2. Just imagine you broke the plane with too much 'G' and your pax didn't have a chute. Would you use yours anyway? Could you live with yourself afterwards if you did?

And what if the pax has a chute. Being unfamiliar with the aircraft and environment they would take longer than you to decide to go even with you shouting at them to jump, and they'd take longer to actually climb out. Would you wait 'till they'd gone or shout to them to jump then 'every man (or woman) for themselves' ?

SSD

[foxmoth]

Standard brief - If I say JUMP and you say 'pardon', you are talking to yourself!

[paulo]

Shaggy - That's exactly what I've been pondering too. I think if one wears chute, all wear chute. As for bail procedure... hmmm. I've been told that in freefall tandem, the protocol on catastrophic failure is that pilot jumper goes at the bottom, so passenger gets best chance. So does that mean we wait until pax has bailed before we do? If we're near critical altitude, does that affect the answer?

[flickoff]

Vexed question this. I have only worn a chute in the US when it is compulsory, but I don't think anyone should be discouraged from wearing one. Does it make you braver and more likley to do stupid things because in the final analysis you can just abandon the a/c, or is a prudent measure against structural failure etc: discuss!

Reading Sports Aerobatics etc, perhaps the best saftey measure is spin training as lack of this is more likley to kill you than anything else. Are you TOTALLY comforatable with erect and inverted spin, flat spins both ways up, full power spins, accelerated spins with and withgout power, cross over spins knife edge spins:do you know what happens if when you apply aeilorn, elevator etc in a spin. If not go and get some decent training from someone who does. Do not **** about with a bloke who has been forced to do a few spins in a 152 for his CPL, get a good aerobatic intructor. The school I have visited in the US will not let anyone solo until they have done to their satisfaction a three or four day spin course they take it that seriously! This is available in the UK.

[paulo]

flickoff - interesting.

I did my aeros training in a Robin 2160, which is what I'm continuing to practice in. We did regular spins, but the Robin isn't cleared for intentional inverted (not sure about flat, and as for things like knife edge spins... err, never heard of them!)

Anecdotal evidence suggests the 2160 is incredibly forgiving. It really wants to sort itself out, and you have to force it to misbehave. I've noticed this in spins (it won't hold a spin without positive rudder), it apparently still recovers if you use fore elevator (2160 recovery is aft), and someone else who got into an inverted spin and - without the opportunity to have learnt the recovery - let go and recovered.

2160 limitations and friendliness aside, I'd definitely like to learn more spin scenarios. The possibility of an inverted does worry me. The club is hoping to get a CAP10C and an Extra 200, so it looks like I might have the excuse/opportunity to do some training. Hmmm.

[Spacer]

I'm lucky enough to see military and civilian flying. In military, there's tonnes of aeros and spins. I always wear a chute (as the rules dictate), and I wouldn't consider anything else. I was doing spin trips yesterday, and it is easy to see how you could get disorientated and killed quite easily. When I fly civvy, I don't wear a chute, but then I don't do aeros. I suppose its up to you, if you think that you/the instructor won't make any mistakes and that the aircraft will not have any failures/emergencies then don't wear a chute. Personally, I don't fancy those odds :) .

[hugh flung_dung]

Paolo,

This is an interesting question. I teach aeros (usually in Bulldogs) and am not very consistent about 'chutes.

If I'm doing an aeros trial lesson I don't bother because the manouevres are usually simple - but sometimes the "stude" is unusually keen and by the end of 30 minutes we've been through the whole repertoire.

If I'm formally teaching aeros then it depends on what we're doing. Always worn for spinning, usually worn for ROTs, S/Ts, recoveries from deliberately botched manouevres and flicks. At other times it's down to the stude to choose, we make the 'chutes available but some people don't like wearing them and others do.

It often occurs to me that it would be pretty interesting to be in a seriously sad aeroplane wishing I'd spent the extra minute to put the 'chute on!

One further thought. If I'm wearing a 'chute I (and the stude) always wear bone domes. The rationale for this is simply that the only things that would make me step out would be serious flames or a major bit breaking off. In the latter case the hairyplane will be doing something unusual and there's probably a fair chance of being wacked about the bonce!

BTW. If you look at the US aero fatalities you'll see that one was in a Seneca!

[InFinRetirement]

As a demonstration pilot on the whole range of Pierre Robin aeroplanes some few years ago now, including the HR 200, which was meant for aeros, I never wore a chute, neither did I wear one in competition aerobatics in Stampes, Tigers and a CAP10. It is very much a matter of choice. It simply is a fact that if you are at ease with yourself and your aircraft you don't need one! The Chipmunk however, IS one aircraft I might have thought twice about it, especially when spinning.

But if you think of the situations that may make you think you need one, you are perhaps doing it wrong, especially if you have frightened yourself. I very much doubt that you would get a structural failure in a Robin and + 6 is fine and just half a point lower than 'normal' in negative on most other aerobatic aircraft. Also not a problem.

Robin aircraft are the one of the safest private aircraft ever built and I have never seen anyone wear a chute in one.

Concentrate on doing the aeros right, to perfection even, and you will feel the same as we did.

[TRIMTRABB]

Good thread paulo,

Looking at the circumstances of the aircraft at your school I suspect you fly from the same airfield (SW Warks?)as myself at a school up the road...Of course there may be another school with a 2160, CAP10 and Extra!!
I have just completed the AOPA course in the T67B and as the aircraft is on a (hopefully) short secondment at Oxford have been delayed in my progression to solo until the new year - To this end I have decided to buy a chute - probably a GQ -before I go off on my own . Re-packing seems to need a much consideration as purchase and the good people at Pprune have pointed me in the right direction on this. Cost can vary greatly.
Infinretirement makes some interesting points and coupled with other comments about inverted and flat spins (or both) to be honest the thought of an invterted spin (which I live through with my practice model)scares me. To this end I am going to get my instructor to give me some training in the Pitts.
Take a look at http://www.aerobaticsource.com/forums (Pattys bit)- You'll need to register but there's a thread on there about the same question. The Americans seem to be agreement with their law that they must wear one.
A conversation a few weeks ago suggested that as the 2160's seat cushions don't come out it would be a tight squeeze to get in with one on ?????
On the point of the 2160 did I read correctly that you pull aft to recover from an erect spin?
As for the PAX, I have had the same thoughts and can only conclude that I either leave it behind or let them wear it - Either one not a good answer.
The other solution which has many other benefits is to find another local aerobatic pilot who has his own shute and fly together - (The other pilot would not need to wear a shute if he didn't want to but at least he can make his 'informed decision') - Are there many other pilots at A......(??) doing the same thing. If not I know of a local T67 pilot......E-mail if we you think we can help each other...
Sorry to show my ignorance but where can I obtain 'Sport Aerobatics magazine'

Universal

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: TRIMTRABB ]

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: TRIMTRABB ]

[ 25 November 2001: Message edited by: TRIMTRABB ]

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

IFR - Why the doubts about the Chippy? I know if the spin is prolonged it goes flat, but AFAIK it always recovers.

Anything I should know? (I aerobat one regularly).

I'm more concerned with the Yak's small rudder and proensity to entrer flat and inverted spins unintentionally - and to go from the former to the later very quickly.

SSD

[paulo]

IFR...

Interesting to read your view of Robins, given your aeros experience. I've not got a great deal of time or a/c variety but I have to say they seem to be quality through and through. I've not scared myself... but then again there's probably an inverted spin out there with my name out. And yup, I've never seen anyone wear a chute in 'our' one either.

TRIMTABB...

Sounds like we could be at the same field. If it's the one with the cafe that get's overrun with (Fosse Way?) cyclists, then we're in the same place.

The upright spin recovery is indeed Pull! - to do with airflow over that monster rudder, apparently. There's even a nice placard 'THE SPIN RECOVERY IS UNCONVENTIONAL' (silly thoughts of POH showing pilot donning 'funny' moustache & glasses...) Perhaps IFR has the full tech explanation?

I think I'm registered for Patty's stuff so I'll go check the discussion.

re: poss kit sharing - mail me at [email protected] - if nothing else we might get to meet for a cuppa at the cafe and swap stories. Or is that sorties?

[InFinRetirement]

Shaggy Sheep Driver.

The Chipmunk, not all, required a correct spin recovery. i.e. Full opposite rudder, centralise the controls, but it was ALWAYS necessary to put the stick FULLY forward before effecting a pull out. This is because it is possible for the aircraft to stay stalled and head for the ground if you don't allow a good speed to build up.

Paulo. The early Robins, Petit Prince, The Regent and so on were virtually unspinable. This was because of the gull wing. A conventional spin therefore being almost impossible. I certainly never got a spin out of one.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks, IFR. The Chippy does indeed require FULL forward to recover from established spins - and it needs to be pushed, maybe 2 handed, beyond that 'false' forward stop caused by air loads, to the actual forward stop.

Any other tips? There's not much on the web on Chippy aeros. The aeroplane seems a pussycat to aerobat ( the above excepted) and the RAF have been doing it for years so there should be no surprises. But any wisdom gratefully received.

SSD

[Daifly]

The Chipmunk had anti-spin strakes added to the rear fuselage in RAF service to assist with the recovery if my memory serves me correctly...?

And regarding the parachute, someone above mentioned training. I remember well flying in Chippies are a humble (yeah, right!) Air Cadet and watching the "Jump, jump, John" cine movie of how to exit the aircraft safely (I bet that brings a few memories back!).

So with new passengers it's just a case of a thorough brief. That segment on the video only ran through it once.

1. Undo your harness, making sure it's only the one connecting you to the seat. (If they had to mention it, then it must have happened...)
2. Disconnect your bonedome R/T connection.
3. Open the air distrupting flap on the canopy.
4. Slide the canopy back all the way.
5. You'll be leaving to the left.
6. Stand up in your seat.
7. Turn around and step onto the trailing edge of the wing.
8. The next step should be into the gap, aiming about 3 foot behind the wing. Don't just jump from the standing start as you'll hit the tail.
9. During your ensuing descent, look for the D-ring. (Lots of gruesome stories about fingers worn away on webbing straps...)
10. PULL IT!!!!!
11. Knees together, legs bent, like jumping off a 12' wall.

How I remember this stuff I don't know. It's about 12 years since I saw it last.

But, I think (I hope!) it demonstrates that a full briefing will be remembered by your passengers...!

- It never really mentioned how a 4' cadet was supposed to turn around in their seat against the wind and then "step" onto the trailing edge of the wing, when they'd had to be lifted over the bloody side in the first place getting in!!

Still - it was great fun, I wonder if the Grobs today make you think it's proper RAF flying? There's something about taxying out in a tandem seater and doing aeros...!

[Croqueteer]

HereI am writing this e-mail. I almost wasn't. Four years ago when practicing for a standard level comp in my Pitts (1000ft higher than comp hieghts) I screwed up a simple stall turn and ended in an inverted spin going down about 4000ft/min. I don't know why I couldn't recover as I appeared to be thinking slowly and logically, but as I was considering what to try next, I realised that I could see the individual leaves on the trees, so I decided to leave my Pitts to its own ideas. It was an open cockpit model, and I was thrown out quite violently at about 1200ft (estimate of a pilot witness) and the chute, an ex US airforce seat pack opened almost instantly and all was quiet and peaceful, and the landing was most gentle. All this happened in a very short time. The most relevant points were:- I had worn the chute in standard level comp for a good many years, and was prepared mentally and training wise to use it. As inverted spinning is not in standard level sequences, my training in inverted spinning was not up to scratch. Deliberately entering an inverted spin is totally different to suddenly finding yourself in one, and in a Pitts things happen very fast. Most aero pilots I know have horror stories of the time they were lucky to get away with it. Disaster can happen to anyone, regardless of experience, and it is only fair to yourself and your family to give yourself every chance. For aeros, wear a chute and know how to use it, it keeps the log book tidy, equal take-offs and landings.

[sunnysideup]

Great discussion you've started Paulo.

Parachutes are a must for higher level aeros IMHO - especially when you start your training in them and may be prone to falling out of manoeuvres. After that - its how you feel with the aircraft, I'm sure.

In the 2160 - with an instructor like the one I think you're talking about (I'm at the same school I think) - I'd be very happy to land in a field on top of this person (I'm not gay!)! :D

Seriously, many people wear parachutes in the 2160 (even given its excellent recovery and stability) and I believe it's compulsary in their higher level aircraft.

It's you're choice Paulo - I'm sure you're a big boy and can make you're own decisions (I've heard that rumour about you around the club room!)

[Julian]

Is jump traiing part of the aero course or are you basically expected to go and find your own?

Julian.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I never had any jump training. I think you learn 'on the job', so to speak - it's very much a last resort.

It must be a very difficult descision to make, especially if you think you've just about recovered from whatever manouver went wrong. There must be a VERY strong temptation to think "I've got it now. Just a few more sec.." CRASH

[paulo]

sunnyside - I'll play the gent and pretend i've got no idea what you're going on about with that forced landing malarky ;-)

Do you mean there's people at our club wearing chutes in the 2160?