Flying clubs in the North West

[PA38]

I am currently a memeber of Sherburn in elmet, and I am getting a little fed up of the self distruct in-fighting of the commitee, so I am looking to fly elsewhere.
NOT Barton as it's going to go the same way, with new owner (prop developer).
So it will have to be Liverpool or Blackpool, anyone got any insight into clubs at either venue? Aircraft condition ect... :eek:

[poetpilot]

Whoooooaa!!!! "Not Barton cos it going to go the same way" h-hm ! The Club hasnt got a new owner. The airfield operations havent got a new owner.

The airfield lease has a new owner. But The land is in Salford, comes under Salford planning authority and IF THERE IS SUPPORT particularly from people who think positively, then Lancs Aero Club will survive. We've only been going since 1922 so I really think some positive attitude is needed here.

The airfield isnt going to disappear next week. The lease runs at least until 2003. And the more people who come to Barton, use it, and fight for its continuance, the better its long term chances. So PLEASE DO NOT WRITE US OFF !! We're thriving and we will continue to do so!

Hope you emailed Salford !! Or would you rather fly from Liverpool & pay high fees?

[Negative 'G']

Quote: "NOT Barton as it's going to go the same way"

What do you mean GOING,Barton's been a 'commitee click' for years now and has driven a lot of potentially good honest members away in the process including myself & many other friends.
I had'nt visited Barton for at least a year up until the other week when I had the unfortunate experience of descending onto there bumpy soggy grass,it was only whilst sat in there "clubhouse" that I wondered "Why did I ever want to fly from this hole",don't get me wrong I would never want to see any Airfield close but the mere location of Barton is something to be concerned about,surrounded by motorways & pylons and the 09 Climbout is something which will scare anybody in anything especially a relatively underpowered PFA type such as a Jodel.

Anyway Pa38,with reference to LPL or BPL,I would certainly choose BPL due to there multi runway operation (No crosswind problems)and limited commercial movements along with several Schools to choose from.
Unfortunatly LPL has the "Easyjet problem" which results in GA aircraft holding regularly for 15-20 minutes both on the ground and in the air whilst commercial operations take priority,this is'nt helped by it's single runway ops and as for Schools well...........I'd better leave it there.
Get down to BPL if only for the Beach :D :D :D

Neg G

[Crowe]

Nobody else defending SiE?

There may be some issues, as all the letters to members lately illustrate, but as far as I know, sense has won through (new runway & lease approved).

SiE is not my most convenient airfield, but it is "proper" club, run for the love of it more than for a profit, and I think it deserves support for that...

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: Crowe ]

[JONATHAN PEARSON]

Hi PA38.
I would have like to recommend "Ravenair" at Liverpool Airport.Since moving there i have found them professional in there attitude and training to be of a high standard.
The fleet of training A/C are in good conditon.(approx 8 PA38 for hire/training)
The ATC at Lpl is excellent with any request for info or ILS approaches being met(If possible)
As to "negative G" comments at to waiting time prior to departure is completely INCORRECT
:mad: the max time i have waited is about 4-7 mins!!!! before departure clearence is given and the X-winds are no problem!!!
Taxi time at Lpl is shorter as the GA parking is close to runway 27 holding point
So more time in the air!!!
In defence to Crowe,SiE is a GREAT airfield and the bacon butters are EXCELLENT!! its just to faraway (By road) for me!!!
BARTON=No comments ITS GRASS!!!!!
To all you sceptic's out there. I do NOT work for "RavenAir" or have any finance dealings with Lpl :mad:
Wishing you all safe flying
SB1089 :p

[Cat.S]

I second SB1089. I've been a member of Ravenair for 18 months now and have nothing negative at all to say about them. Friendliness is high on the agenda and Liverpool is very user friendly to GA flying and ATC is helpful, managing to balance GA with commercial smoothly and fairly. (Ravenair moved from Manchester for this reason!)Aircraft availability (PA38s and Senecas/Aztecs)is good.

[LDG_GEAR _MONITOR]

I agree with the above comments about ravenair. i have never had to hold at liverpool taxi straight out and airbourne have only had to hold on the way in for a couple of times most was 2 orbits - and never for easy jet just other PA38's or 152 etc
Negative g - good name considering ur comments about liverpool and as for the not commenting on the schools and leaving it open as though they are all a disaster - have u tried flying from liverpool yet?

Have u seen the investment going into GA there ? have u seen the new premises at keenair - streets ahead of there old place. and then theres the impressive hanger at ravenair nearing the end of its build with its own apron - and i belive that it is only the first phase of a multi bay hanger complex !! its also sposed to be big enough to get an A320 in in SIZE i know not physically due to height of doors but in overall length width of hangar. love to know where there heading !!

Anyway enough of my comments about GA at liverpool as i think theres only one way it can go - up. i dont know of many airfields in north west with this sort of investment going on? unless u know better .....

[Negative 'G']

Hmmmmmmm Ok,ok I think the Barton topic started to wind me up a little bit,In fairness I have'nt flown from LPL(After 8yrs of being there) for approx. 18mths since I moved to BPL,however at the time it was a regular occurance to be holding for so long to the extent that in summer,engine overheating became a problem when on the ground.
And yes CATS & Ravenair are very professional outfits.

Quote:- "and the X-winds are no problem!!!"

Well I don't think that this reply deserves comment............do you ?

As for LPL being on the up due to the investment/development,I really don't know it does sound good in theory but if the commercial operations expand even further will there be a place for GA at LPL or will it turn into another MAN in 5-10yrs time ?

Anyway has anybody any comments on the 09 climbout at Barton or is it only me who quite frankly thinks that it is a little on the dangerous side ?

Neg G :D

[Whirlybird]

PA38,

Is Sleap too far away for you? Nice place; cheap, friendly, good cafe and club atmosphere, and been there since the Second World War so unlikely to vanish suddenly.

[long final]

If you were looking for training I think my advise would be BPL, the three runways have got to help with crosswind issues. It's very GA friendly has all the necessary lights, beacons and ILS's you need. Plenty of schools to choose from and easy access - LPL can be a real ****** to get to sometimes ( though that might just be my driving )And loadsa empty space and fields and things to play over. ;)

Really they don't seem to have a great deal of difference for a PPL holder, but when the GA compound closes for the night it costs a damn fortune to get outa the place! That may be different for residents tho.

I think for me it would be where you tend to fly - if you go southbound mainly - go LPL - vice versa BPL. Generally both pretty good airports for GA.

Regards
LF

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

09 climbout at Barton is no worse than many others at other fields. Look left and right, not just straight ahead, for forced landing areas. Look the other side of the Ship Canal and motorway. I think the 20 climbout is actually worse than 09. Some years ago a Mooney suffered EFATO off 09 – he put it down OK and they all walked away. Some years later a Rally off 20 came down and there were 2 fatalities.

And Whirly – are you sure Sleap is so safe? It was threatened with gravel extraction a few years ago. I heard recently that there is going to be some new road construction in that part of Shropshire – and guess where they’ll dig the gravel from?

I hope it’s not true, but it is true that Sleap sits on valuable gravel deposits (and I think ARC have a licence to dig) so it may only be a matter of time…… ;~((

SSD

[poetpilot]

Barton has been around since 1928 - longer than Sleap.

Not many GA airfields around where you can land and be in the City within such a short time - and not pay a fortune in fees & time.

I've flown from there since 1974 and despite Committee shenanigans from time to time, & the bumpiest runways in the UK, it's still a better place to fly from than most in the NW (IMHO). If I want to use hard runways, sure I go to BPL, but my costs & taxyng / waiting time at the hold are minimised at BTN.

09 climbout - yep, the Mooney landed on the playing field. to the left of the climbout path. Gear up, no-one hurt.

20 climbout incident with the Rallye - he stalled/span in, in very marginal conditions, it wasnt an engine failure incident. There's a golf course to the right that's available for such emergencies.

I wouldnt like to tempt fate by saying that there is a safe exit on every climbout, but if you have reasonable flying skills & judgement, it's safe enough at BTN.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking ANY other airfield in the NW, but please don't damn BTN unnecessarily - the club maintains around 1000 members, 100 aircraft and is a damn sight healthier than many clubs and schools.

It's also still got an air of flying as it used to be before GA went all professnial :rolleyes:

...and dont take that as saying its unsafe, becaause I see just as mnany incident/accident reports from "proper" airfields as I do at BTN.

Long Live BTN!!!

[Diplomate]

My vote definitely goes to Blackpool for all the reasons already mentioned! Great facilities and not a rip-off. As for which club, it is really a matter of personal choice. If you want a "no-bu****it" approach, you can't go wrong with Blackpool Air Centre. If you want the "club discussion and debate, try ANT. I would avoid COMED like the plague due to their problems over the last year or so!!

[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: Diplomate ]

[PA38]

Been busy this weekend visiting both Liverpool (where I got my PPL) and Blackpool.
Whoever said the x-wind at LPL is not a problem aint done much flying from there, when I was training it was often outside x-wind limits :eek: good practice though :D
So I am leaning towards Blackpool will no doubt join one very soon, thanks for all the input...

[QSY1215]

DIPLOMATE:Yes by all means recommend someone to B.A.C. " no bull s***" way I hear you say!!!! also the place to go if you want your trousers taken down in no uncertain fashion,talk about money driven...the mans been told on many occasion you can't take it with you, worst school in the northern area if not UK. If i were you PA38, have alook at the two others mentioned, ANT very good & the new Comed is shaping up very well. Before you ask Diplomate I do not have any connection with these other schools apart from dealings on a commercial basis....I wouldn't send one of my boys to Blackpool Air Centre if it was the only school left in the U.K.
I shall be delighted to respond Mr Bateson.....thankyou if and when!

[Diplomate]

QSY - All I can add is that we clearly have had different experiences at Blackpool!

I have had several experiences in dealing with the individual you mention on several occassions and have certainly not been ripped off.

I also know many people that regard his teaching very highly although, it does have a particular style to it - you have to pick things up quickly to benefit.

I suppose it just goes to show that there is no flying club that meets everyone's requirements. We are all different and so are flying clubs!

ps I still wouldn't put any money up-front with COMED though!!!! Have the airport sold off the former COMED's impounded aircraft to pay off the bad debts yet?

[Rockwell]

PA38
The convenience factor depends of course where one lives and the journey
times involved in travelling to and from the chosen base. As you have been
flying from Sherburn, I am wondering why you make no mention of
Leeds/Bradford, which is in the same area.

Note that there is a flying school/club at Chester/Hawarden and also the
Manchester School of Flying (MSF) continues to operate from
Manchester/Ringway with PA38s and PA28s.

It should be pointed out that 'Poetpilot' was the LAC (Barton) chairman prior
to the present holder of that office. And is naturally the best placed
individual to enlighten everyone on the subject of 'committee
shenanigans'.

[Negative 'G']

Ah I see ;)

[col323i]

DIPLOMATE: I'm with QSY on this one, although down in the south now have spent 10 years at BCP so do know most of the setup. Ask most people in the area & you tend to get very negative feedback about BAC, indeed, why not hae a chat to the people that really know whats what at BCP, the fuelers!!! sure you will hear some very intresting comments about our friend.

PA38 Have alook around them all in the area if you can, call on them without invitataion see the setup/general feel about the place & then make up your mind. After all you are not going to put £1000's up front are you so one can soon change if you don't like what you see......GOOD LUCK & why not let us know hoiw you get on.

[PA38]

I have decided after "just turning up" and asking it has to Be ANT.
They took the time to show me round, clubhouse hanger and aircraft,a little bit of PR goes a LOOOOOONG way :D

[poetpilot]

Rockwell - well, gee thanks, so nice of you to "blow my cover". Maybe I can return the favour some day.

For the record I'm NOT best placed to report on "Committee shenanigans" because since I left the Committee in 1996 (and that was due to redundancy at work meaning I had to spent my time looking for PAID work) I have distanced myself from the politics & gone back to enjoying my flying and family life - both of which suffered inordinately from my time on Committee.

So best find someone else to do that.

I've also discovered that since leaving the Club politics behind, I've been able to enjoy Barton and the flying oportunities it represents, and have been able to rekindle friendships with the very many genuine people at Barton.

I have no vested interest in encouraging anyone to come to Barton other than my own personal enthusiasm and love for the place, which was originally what got me onto the Committee (through starting up the visitor centre as a no-cost venture).

Every Committee-run establishment - be it a ping-pong society right up to a larger club like Barton - is bound to have its "shenanigans". That's the downside of having elected, unpaid enthusiasts who volunteer a large part of their spare time to get "got-at" by those who like to moan (with no alternative positive solutions) at anything and any person in authority.

The punters, however, are free to get involved or not as they wish in those.

I suspect it's much the same at S-i-E, although I don't profess to know in any detail what's been going on there (and I dont want to thank you). I also know people who fly from there and are very happy with it.

In this thread, I simply wanted to stop Barton getting unnecessary and negative sideswipes at a time when people should be helping it in terms of its future. You'll miss it when its gone!

And to finish on the anonymity aspect once more - I have no wish to be known as the ex-chairman & I wont state my successes in that time (yes I know I had failures too!).

I have every wish to be known as an enthusiast for private flying from gradle to grave. I'm no professed expert, just have lived, enjoyed and experienced a lot through 33 years in active aviation.

In that time I've flown (rented aircraft)from BPL, MAN & LPL, as well as airfields in the SE, Netherlands, and many in the US - not just BTN. I've been a customer at clubs run by committees, and schools run by individual owners or companies. I could tell you tales about people at BPL or any of the others, but I wont because opinions on people are just personal perceptions based on experience. I've owned or part owned 5 aircraft. So I feel reasonably qualified to state an opinion. My bias for BTN was clear to see rather than covert.

So, Rockwell, now that you've had your little moment of glory in revealing who I am, why don't you step out from your cloak of anonymity and tell us who YOU are? Only fair don't you think? After all, your profile doesnt exactly make you stand out in the crowd does it?

[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: poetpilot ]

[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: poetpilot ]

[ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: poetpilot ]

[poetpilot]

S'funny that. Rockwell's gone all quiet. :p

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

....He's probably attending a stint at etiquette school. Particularly the the lessons pertaining to internet threads...

SSD

[poetpilot]

Indeed. Nice one SSD.

Whilst I won't denigrate any committee members in public forum, I will say that once one is on a committee, one sees sides of members and customers that one never saw before.

I do recall a stormy AGM way back in the early 80's, when a club (note: I didnt say THE club) had just got its' first set of computerised accounts including a debtors list.

As each of the regular detractors & moaners delivered their usual stuff, the then treasurer looked down the list and read out what they owed to the club at that time (which in some cases were substantial amounts). It was sort of spooky how the top ten of the then debtors to the club were the most negative moaners.

One of them threatened to punch me that night and had to be restrained. Why? 'cos I was the guy who had set up the computer system which exposed the debtors'.

[g-okay]

I think that the topic about btn is totaly unfounded, the pilots at btn are trained to deal with efartos on all rnwys, and it is a totaly safe place to fly from, providing that you are a good & safe pilot!!. I also think that btn has to train pilots to a higher standard because it is such a tricky airfield. Long live Barton, in the plane and of the ground in 10 mins, only at btn. ;)