NATS Postings

[mrgarabaldi]

Hey guys

Im unsure if this is the correct place for this, as I cannot find any reference to it, but here goes.

Obviously NATS need people who can work anywhere in the country, however, does anyone have any experience of chossing where they actually work after college? Do you ''normally'' get where you ask for?

A little vague I know

Any help would be appreciated

Chris

[reportyourlevel]

Are you trying to get Stansted by using subliminal stimuli? Good luck with that one!

[mrgarabaldi]

Nopes, im based in glasgow... so would like to be based in prestwick!! :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I suspect that if you get into NATS and are successful you may have to set your sights further afield... perhaps south a few hundred miles!

Good luck.

[Not Long Now]

Short answer... you can ask but you will not get.

[ToweringCu]

If you want to work at the Prestwick Centre you will have to be chosen for the Area Course; you would have quite a good chance of this. You do get to specify a preference for posting at the end of college training; now that the manchester Centre has relocated to Prestwick you have a reasonable chance of getting a posting to Scottish.

[radarman]

Try volunteering for LXGB and you'll stand a good chance. They have a few wrinklies going out to pasture soon. :E

[angry_muppet]

Having been at the college, they will ask "your preference" but you will be sent wherever the need arises... That may mean "I'd like a London Airport please". "Certainly sir, here's a posting to Aberdeen."

[Will_McKenzie]

Having been through the college on aerodrome/approach you get to choose your 3 preferences for dual rated towers.
Having not been on the area course I couldn't say but I would imagine you would be asked which you would prefer, though they stopped that during my time there before the MACC move to Prestwick.

[mrgarabaldi]

Hey thanks for the reply's guys.

As i Understand it, you simply apply to be an ATCO, but then they will determine if you fo approach, area etc. Is that correct?
What is the college like? Ive passed the online application, got to go to stage 1 in November. All my family are in Glasgow, which is the only real thing putting me off, as knowing my luck I will end up in London......

[Will_McKenzie]

That's it, you apply and if/when you are successful you will get a provisional start date then closer to the time you will ask for a preference to do aerodrome or area (to do the approach course you get the tower licence first) It is normally done on a which course needs people rather than your skills. I got aerodrome after putting it as my preference, but I know lots of people who didn't get what they wanted (similar to postings in that case)
I won't lie to you, college can be tough and is fairly hard work. I went to uni before so found the workload less than what I did, but others found it a lot more than they were used to. I wouldn't say what you are taught is complex, just a lot of it in a short space of time with very little error for margin.
If you chose the area course you would have a better chance of getting prestwick, which isn't too far from Glasgow. I seem to remember signing a mobility clause on my first stage and ultimately you will be sent where numbers are needed and where you are best suited.
All the best for your stage one :-)

[mrgarabaldi]

Hey thanks for the info. Im doing an honours degree at the min and in year 4, so im not un accustomed to studying. Like I said the only major thing putting me off is going to London... that would suck. I may as well go to the stages and see what happens. IS there any reason why Area's are 11 months in training compared to the 6 months of aero's?

[Roffa]

They stream the less talented to area so it takes them longer to get through the course work.

[Will_McKenzie]

:ok: to Roffa, well said

on a serious note though, Area is made up of 3 courses (Basic, Foundation and Advanced) you need to pass all three of those. Each are made up of written tests, verbal assessments and practical exercises. The aerodrome course is just the individual course, normally only takes about 4-5 months with another 3 for approach on top of it. I wouldn't be worried about being in London, unless you are at London City the others aren't too close to the centre. Though anything south coast for you wouldn't be ideal, with the distance. On a plus side when you are valid you get paid enough to fly home on your days off if that is what you want :-)

[Minesthechevy]

If you're letting a little thing like the distance between London and Scotland get in the way of your ambition I'd question how committed you are.

Last time I looked, there were these things called, now let me see, oh, yes, p-l-a-n-e-s, that went between the two in less than two days. I would imagine things have even improved since then.......:mad:

You might, just might, get away with a request on compassionate grounds, eg if you have a sick relly up north, but if by doing so you were to block a genuine and more serious similar request from someone else you wouldn't be Mr. Popular....

[mrgarabaldi]

@ minesthechevy

Whats your problem ars*****? I only asked a reasonable question, no need to be sarcastic. Thanks for the other replys, including about the less talented people:p

[Crazy Voyager]

Out of intrest, if you don't mind me stealing the thread a bit mrgarabaldi :O

I hear that it is not impossible to change your workplaces later in your career, how does this work? Does NATS recruit internally ("we have a vacancie at Cardiff, is anyone intrested") or do you apply yourself (phone the manager up and ask if they need new people) or do you switch with someone else (say that I got Glasgow and mrgarabaldi got Stansted, can we then talk to our managers and if they are up for it, change positions)?

I'm just curious how it works since it's one of the internal things you don't know much about, but it could have a large impact later on (if I get through all the three stages and validation that is :ooh:)

[Gonzo]

It's possible, but don't plan your life around a move in the future.

After you finish at the college, you'll do unit specific validation training. For example at Heathrow it's another year or more before you are valid. If at some point you move to another airport, say, Southampton, you'd still need to do Southampton's validation training. All the while you are being paid a lot of money (far more than someone straight out of college) and are effectively 'useless;' in the fact that you are not earning the company money during your training. Also, your post at Heathrow is now vacant, and would have to be filled by another trainee, who would take more than a year to train and might not actually succeed anyway.

Don't get me wrong, it does happen, but it's more liklely to happen if the move is seen as a career progression/promotion to a higher grade. I earn a high salary at Heathrow, and I doubt many smaller unit managers would like to have me on their budget!

[Minesthechevy]

OK, mrgarabaldi - an apology from me for having failed, miserably it seems, to have conveyed the humour that was intended in my reply. Seems I took the biscuit.

However, a word to the wise - there was a serious message underneath the joking. Try and put an impartial balance into your decision to see relations/friends and your desire to get a start - any start - in your chosen career. I don't know anything about you, so only you are qualified to find that point of balance....

Another word of advice - you might have assumed, accurately, that I am now retired - but never assume that a retiree isn't still able to whisper into the ears of people who matter. As it happens, I'm not, and wouldn't - but you weren't to know that when you responded.

Good luck controlling that temper.....

[mrgarabaldi]

1 . I do not have a temper, I simply dislike people talking down to me in the manner in which your post was written...

2. Your actually having a laugh? Your threatening to ''tell '' on me??? really??

Lol

[Crazy Voyager]

Your insight is as always appreciated Gonzo :)

I'm coming from outside the UK and both me and my girlfriend are planning to live in the UK indefinetly if I get through the selection and validation, so I'm not planning on it per se. I was mostly intrested because I've heard it beeing mentioned so many times but noone has ever told me how it's acctually done in practice

Your comment about Southampton, is it so that if you have a salary at a specific band then you don't get "degraded" if you change to a "lower banded" unit? I hope that question makes sense :p

[dcb2008uk]

He's not threatening to tell on you, theres quite obviously a communication breakdown between you!

It's a valid point being made, that some people in the company wouldn't think twice about as you put it 'telling on you'

[ToweringCu]

I thought your assessment of 'thechevy' and his post was spot on, Garibaldi; his second post just confirms it. Pretty much everyone who starts at the college has a preference for posting and there is no harm in making that known. Although you have to be prepared to go where the company needs you.

[Minesthechevy]

<< 2. Your actually having a laugh? Your threatening to ''tell '' on me??? really?? >>

Try reading what was written - at the risk of 'talking down to you', you might find it a useful thing to do in what you hope will be your new profession..... I suggest toweringcu does the same.

At least dcb2008uk got it right.....

No, I was not having a laugh - I was cautioning you that you never know who you are talking to, so it might not have been such a wise thing to go off at half-cock.

As for general ATC humour, Sir needs to toughen up a bit - you'll get far worse than you had from me......:ok:

[mrgarabaldi]

The difference being il be paid to have a thick skin then, I shouldnt need one when asking a simple question on a public forum. So, perhaps you need to watch who you are talking to on a public forum.

[Roffa]

A good trait in an air traffic controller, even a prospective one, is knowing when to talk and when to stop...

[mrgarabaldi]

.... lol.....

[250 kts]

Crikey, no sense of humour and a temper. I can't wait to see what type of controller he turns out to be.;)

De-briefs and the inevitable criticism should be a hoot. (or should I say hoots mon)

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Glaswegians for you ... can never shut their gobs := :E

[mrgarabaldi]

Hahaha... public forums are great.

[Ian Jemarre]

fair play mr garabaldi...i too found minesthechevy's veiled threat / helpful advice either inappropriate or unfunny, whatever it was meant to be.

Seems to reflect the superiority complex that some controllers develop.

[ANewHope-Ful]

I do think some people seem to have a sense of humor deficency, really. What I've learned of ATCOs so far they need a) the skillset and b) a large slice of humor, I dont think what he said was a veiled threat at all, and i fact had a valid point..

Just my 2cents...

[goldfrog]

Seems to reflect the superiority complex that some controllers develop.

SOME controllers ??????

[mrgarabaldi]

Yeah, some people just dont have manners tbh. Its amazing that asking a simple question can turn someone into being rude with their reply for whatever reason. I wouldnt care what employment I was with, if someone spoke to me in a degrading/rude fashion that was not warranted, they would be told where to go.

[250 kts]

What veiled threat?

chevvy merely pointed out that if where you work is really an issue then maybe ATC isn't really the job for you.

He then pointed out, admittedly sarcastically, that there are quick ways to get back to bonny Scotland from London.

garibaldi then seems to have taken umbrage by using a profanity towards chevvy?

Not sure garibaldi is in the right place to comment on manners.

[crash323]

Back to the topic at hand maybes???? :)

[250 kts]

Do you ''normally'' get where you ask for?


Ok. Not normally unless you llike the South coast.

I'm not sure someone who is doing an honours degree but doesn't know that the English language has an apostrophe available is suitable anyway.:p

Shall we close the thread now?:D

[Avoiding_Action]

And even if you like the South Coast, you will normally find youself in Scotland.

[novation]

Mrgaribaldi, here's an attempt to answer your original question. I was an employee for NATS prior to going to the college and as such would loved to have been posted back to where I came from. When asked at the college for preferences I always stated I would have liked my original unit; I stress that the college only ever asks for preferences and in no way promise or are obligated to take into consideration your choice. Business needs will always take precedence and you will have have signed a mobility contract as part of the terms of your employment. They may consider compassionate grounds for a posting but only for exceptional reasons.
Having finished my training I was NOT posted to my original unit. Although very upsetting and disruptive I went to my new unit with enthusiasm and opened mindedness. I am now a valid controller doing what is one of the most rewarding jobs in this day and age. I have a great job, great pay, lots of time off (and I mean a lot) and with hind sight I wonder what I was worrying about. Don't get me wrong, I hated the idea of not getting my choice of posting but now I sit back at work and find myself smiling because of the great career I have.
Sorry for long winded reply, but just thought you might like a bit of perspective from someone who had similar apprehensions. Its a great job and you'll get over them.

[elandel]

......but he's not in yet! :E

[Brian 48nav]

I am long retired but may I offer a word of advice? 'MInesthechevy' was not to my mind talking down to you, only trying to be helpful. When I was a very young lad in the air force there was a saying 'Lord, teach me to keep my mouth shut until I know what I am talking about'.I hope you see what I am getting at.- times change I know, but when you are applying to start a career it helps just to go with the flow.
My advice to anyone joining ATC is to try and get an aerodrome posting.Why?you may ask. Airfields get you closer to the whole spirit of aviation, you get to meet pilots, people at flying clubs ( not at the London ones so much)etc and after a few years there will be a chance to move over to 'area'. However my son is at Swanwick and he loves it.I worked at West Drayton, which I hated because it felt like I was in a factory - having spent time at lots of fantastic airfields when in the RAF I had got spoilt. I managed to get to an airfield eventually and had a great time at Heathrow, after postings to Stornoway and Boscombe Down.
I am trying to phrase my final sermon carefully - apart from the housing costs and crowded roads etc living in the south of England is very eye-opening for people from further north. We don't care what your religion is,what team you support,what your politics are, colour of the hair etc etc. Folk are accepted for what they are!

After all that, best of luck to you in your interviews and to any other hopeful who reads this.

[Not Long Now]

Very little chance of moving from tower to centre now Brian as tower trainees don't do area tickets so would have to go via college again which someone would have to pay for, which for the forseeable isn't going to happen.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

mrgaribaldi... You have one hell of a lot to learn. If you start using foul language to any training officers you may encounter, your feet probably won't touch the floor...

I truly do NOT think you are cut out for ATC with your weird attitude. I spent much of my career training controllers so be assured that I know a bit about it.

Calm down, accept that there are lots of people who know what they are talking about on here and accept that there is a lot of humour in ATC which controllers get used to.... or they usually don't make it.

Good luck.

[mrgarabaldi]

To my mind and several others, he was being rude. If he was not, then I sincerely apologise. Im more than happy to be screamed at ( I was in the Army for god sake ) however, I dislike people being rude ( as i saw it in his post ) when all I did was ask a simple question. I fail to see how that is illogical in anyway whatsoever. So yeh, apologies if I misunderstood, but as you can see I was not the only person to see that it did come across in a bad way. As for instructors at ATC, like I said I was in the army. However, even in there I would not allow people ( be it SNCO's or officers ) to talk to me a rude way when it was not warranted. I joined the army to be a soldier, not to take **** of people because they feel like giving it to me for no reason ( if it was warranted, then thats a different matter ). I feel exactly the same towards anything else in life really.... Im not there to take crap off people for no reason and if it happens they will get it right back. Like previously mentioned, if it is warranted, then thats fair enough. If that makes me dick'ed so be it. Id rather that than be known as a walk over in life.

End of conversation as far as im concerned.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

Calm down mrgarabaldi, nice day in Glasgow today come join us in the City's finest boozers ;)

[ex-EGLL]

In response to the original question, asked for Heathrow or anywhere in the South. Got Aberdeen:mad:

Solved that problem by volunteering for Belfast, had a great time, made a small fortune and got any posting of my choice after three years:) (Heathrow!)

Then again, that was 35 years ago

Barry

[mrgarabaldi]

Im actually really calm dude. Just annoying that because you defend your self againt someone who you percieve to be being rude towards you, then all of a sudden your a terrible bloke who aint suited to this career. If being in ANY profession means I take crap of people for nothing, then I dont want it. Il let other monkeys become robots, and let them be walked over.

'' we accept folk for who they are '' '' we dont care about football, your religion....'' thats amusing, as you have already assumed that Im into religion, poitics and football, when I deteste all of them. Perhaps you should keep your mouth shut on matters you know nothing about. Clearly you have a mindset of what Glaswegians (technically, im not as I only moved there 5 years ago ) are like, thus dont just judge them on '' what they are like ''... but on how you percieve them. Too much Rab C Nesbitt maybe?

[ANewHope-Ful]

So it wasn't the end of the conversation then... Someone once said to me it's better to keep silent and appear stupid then to open your mouth and remove all doubt. If if you don't like certain members opinions that's fine, but you don't need to get into a slanging match, just don't respond...

[Loki]

Well said.

[Brian 48nav]

I wasn't going to reply because this is all getting a bit tedious.I suggest you reread my post as it was not directed specifically at Glaswegians - some of my best friends have come from there. My post also mentions the fact that I have worked, therefore lived in Scotland.
The fact that you are no longer in the army speaks volumes.From rereading your posts I would say you are unsuited to ATC.

[crash323]

Was going to start a new thread, as well er this has gone off topic slightly but anyways...


Barry, you mentioned that after three years you got a posting of your choice ( albeit thirty five years ago :P ).... does anyone have experience of this in the present day? I have my stage one in November... Il be happy to just get the job to be honest, I dont mind moving... Just curious about the internal movements that can happen?

Any info is appreciated!

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Just curious about the internal movements that can happen?

Good point..
Some get a transfer within a reasonable amount of time (3 years or so).
Some others wait forever and then some.
Some never get it.
Like everything else in NATS, double (multiple?) standards apply.

[ex-EGLL]

Well, back in the mid 70's, EGAA was a "special" place. Due to the local, how shall we say it...... activities, they could not post anyone there, you had to volunteer. As volunteers were in short supply you could name you terms :D

Barry

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Well, back in the mid 70's, EGAA was a "special" place. Due to the local, how shall we say it...... activities, they could not post anyone there, you had to volunteer. As volunteers were in short supply you could name you terms :D


Recently NATS have decided they can and will post anyone there as a regular posting. This is usually followed very swiftly by the employees securing positions with other ANSPs.

[eastern wiseguy]

Bond the Buggahs.....stop wasting our time!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Too much Rab C Nesbitt maybe?>>

That's precisely how you come across... When I was training controllers, once they had been training for a while and showed signs of "making it", two questions had to be answered in the affirmative: "Is he/she safe"? and "Can I work with him/her?" Do keep that second one in mind. ATC can be very stressful and it you are going to blow your top and lurch into foul language at the drop of a hat I don't think you'll make it. Prove me wrong, eh....

[ToweringCu]

There used to be a time when training reports were pretty much subjective; however, thankfully in NATS those days are gone. We have an objective driven training process with clearly defined objectives to be met; 'do I like him' is not an objective on the training reports, it's all about whether you can do the job safely. Don't let yourself be put off by any of the comments on here.

[Minesthechevy]

Ah, yes, another example of a nice theory getting in the way of real life.......:D

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

One wonders why, with all the experts hanging round on this thread, NATS bothers to invest thousands of pounds each year in a rigorous recruitment and selection process?!

[Brian 48nav]

I can not disagree at all with your post; however my initial post was to point out to the originator of this thread that his reply to 'minesthechevy' was perhaps unwarranted.
Back in the late 70s/early 80s LL had a fearful reputation as a place to validate. I remember when I was at DM having applied to go there an, ATCA who was ex-LL said to me 'LL is a funny place Brian, I saw people who seemed to be doing OK and all of a sudden they had 'looked at someone in a funny way' and then boom they were gone!, but there would be someone who was initially struggling and they pulled the stops out'.
What you have to take on board is that people like HD and I arrived when the training culture was different. As an example, I trained on aerodrome at BB - on my first weekend in the TWR the phone rang and the ATCA taking the call said to me that I was wanted downstairs in the radar room. I went down and another ATCA said 'OK sunshine, part of your duties on the weekend are to make the tea for everyone, there's the kettle,make sure you get it right'. Six months before I had been the most experienced Herc nav on my squadron at DL, people respected me and asked my opinion. So what did I do? I made the tea, I wanted to validate as I had a wife and 3 kids to support,I had applied to the CAA for a job,they hadn't come headhunting for me.I can not imagine anyone being so accepting now!
When HD started at LL there were some fearful people about,who did not take prisoners - many of them had seen service in WW2 - the modern touchy feeling way of handling u/ts did not exist.
As I said, times change, but thankfully even my 37yr old son who is now an OJTI,LCE,Assessor etc at TC preferred to be trained by a 'hard bastard' (sorry CB!).
When I retired I promised myself I would never pontificate about ATC and RAF navigation matters,restricting myself to swapping memories and where are they now type posts - but as I said earlier Garibaldi's rude response struck a chord.
BTW.

PS I hoped you noticed that both HD and I wished him good luck!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<'do I like him' is not an objective on the training reports>>

Whether one "liked" a trainee is irrelevant and I never mentioned anything like that - did anyone else?

[expediteoff]

" 'do I like him' is not an objective on the training reports".

Objectives at our unit - "Reaction to criticism" and "Ability to operate as part of a team" -
seems to cover it nicely eh?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

expediteoff.... Brilliant and very sensible.

[ToweringCu]

er... no, that doesn't cover it. You need specific examples of losing their rag while controlling or not functioning as a team member while controlling. Whether someone is noisy and obnoxious in the rest room or winds you up on a forum is irrelevant. Sitting back and asking yourself 'can I work with this guy' is purely subjective and has no place on a training report. Most of us have probably endured the OJTI who allows his 'gut' feelings to muddy what should be a factual training report.

[Gonzo]

Most of us have probably endured the OJTI who allows his 'gut' feelings to muddy what should be a factual training report.

And I'm sure some of us have been the OJTI who didn't like the trainee and recused themselves from trianing them in case those 'gut' feelings harmed the trainee's chances.

Happnened to me twice so far.

[Ivor_Novello]

Six months before I had been the most experienced Herc nav on my squadron at DL, people respected me and asked my opinion. So what did I do? I made the tea, I wanted to validate as I had a wife and 3 kids to support,I had applied to the CAA for a job,they hadn't come headhunting for me.I can not imagine anyone being so accepting now!

IMHO that is not true. A non-valid Nats trainee in the 90s was making more money than a valid ATCO today on the T&D scale.
Current trainees today get put on hold sometimes for months, waiting for an opportunity to start live training, stuck on a minimum wage with no backpay when they eventually validate.
Or doing full time ATSA duties while being paid less than half of an ATSA wage.
The list could go on. Who's not so accepting??

[WhatMeanPullUp]

At the end of the day there is nothing an OJTI likes more than a mouthy student. I am not suggesting the mr garibaldi is a mouthy student, he has a long way to go before he gets to that stage, but don't take on your OJTI, he knows way more than you despite what you might think. Keep your ears open and your mouth closed and if you make it, you can adopt your 'I don't take sh*t from anyone' attitude. Good luck because with that attitude you will need it.

[Vlad the Impaler]

IMHO that is not true. A non-valid Nats trainee in the 90s was making more money than a valid ATCO today on the T&D scale.

Ah yes, those were the days. Barely a decade ago I was drawing down the best part of 35k a year with no responsibility to speak of as a TC trainee.
How times have changed.
As for biscuit boy and his outbursts. He seems like a well balanced lad to me.
A chip on each shoulder.

[GAPSTER]

Fly Biscuit Boy:O....

...seems not unlike most ATCO's I've ever known,chips included.Now if he can only learn the art of being a trainee and then unleash his full potential after that.Amber Watch TC perhaps?