Q? French Government collusion with French ATC strike?

[055166k]

The French ATC industrial action has forced many operators from the UK and Europe to flightplan across southern UK and out over Lands End onto the ocean tracks to avoid French airspace, using in particular route Tango 9. Today "Exercise Atlantis" .....French Navy Missile Firing 1300-1600....will result in a zero rate on this route 1200-1650.
The UK and the Irish have set up fuelsave routes many hundreds of miles long in an effort to save gas; imagine the frustration of seeing our customers suffer at a time of fragile airline economics. What is the busiest day for the holiday industry? Saturday!
Proposal: If the French won't provide an ATC service then some significant portion of their airspace should be delegated to an ATC provider who will do so whenever a strike takes place. Just one example.....delegate airspace west of a line BHD.....ARE.....DELOG and operate a series of "Tango" type routes. The French must not be allowed to hold the whole of Europe to ransom and inconvenience by using Airspace denial as a political and economic weapon.
What do you think?

[BizJetJock]

It sounds a bit like saying the military shouldn't be allowed to actually have any weapons because they kill and hurt people. The whole point of a strike is to inconvenience people.
Whether the strike is justified I have no idea, just answering your question.

[Bruce Wayne]

The French must not be allowed to hold the whole of Europe to ransom and inconvenience by using Airspace denial as a political and economic weapon


Removing soverignty over airspace would open up Pandora's box.

[BOAC]

Neither of you have answered the OP's point. If it is as said, to continue to hold an exercise which appears to block the only alternate route is sheer bloody-mindedness. Any rational country would have postponed the exercise. QED?

[hapzim]

Just keep a stream of aircraft up and down T9, the exercise will be cancelled due range area being compromised.

[Bruce Wayne]

BOAC

I concur, such an action could be considered bloody minded (however the OP was not a question but a proposal :}).

the thing is to take over the control of the soverign airspace of another country is another issue entirely, even if it is for remedial short term.

CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL CIVIL AVIATION

PART I AIR NAVIGATION CHAPTER I GENERAL PRINCIPLES AND APPLICATION OF THE CONVENTION

Article 1
Sovereignty - The contracting States recognize that every State has complete and exclusive sovereignty over the airspace above its territory.

Article 2
Territory - For the purposes of this Convention the territory of a State shall be deemed to be the land areas and territorial waters adjacent thereto under the sovereignty, suzerainty, protection or mandate of such State.


To remove state soverignty overspace would open up a pandoras box. yep, it's bloody minded, but it's France's train set, much as the UK's the UK's, the USA's the USA's and China's is China's.

[BrATCO]

French Government collusion with French ATC strike?
As a definition, a strike is against a government behaviour. How could there be a collusion ?
I dare anyone to find any collusion between French government and controllers in the last 12 months.

Any rational country would have postponed the exercise
Replace "country" with "government" and we are on the same frequency. (Conutry includes the people. Government makes decisions.)

Last missile firing was also scheduled on a Sat pm. Busiest day of the week between UK and South.
I don't know exactly who decides the schedules, but my guess is that if there was a collusion, it would be against French ATC.
As the aim could be to privatise French ATC, a bad image lets the price dive. Thus make it easier to buy for those who are interested in making money at companies costs(just a personal thought).

Just keep a stream of aircraft up and down T9, the exercise will be cancelled due range area being compromised. In this case, don't forget to continue try via France. These tests are sometimes postponed for whichever reason. When the test is effective, it's often shorter than scheduled.

[BrATCO]

to take over the control of the soverign airspace of another country is another issue entirely, even if it is for remedial short term.

There could also be technical reasons for not doing it for a short term : radar range, frequency range, SOPs, LOAs, Oceanic Transition Area procedures, not to mention the secured phone lines...

It could be done on a long term, but that would mean a LOT of investments... not sure.

[Bruce Wayne]

and a lot of redrafting of international treaties and conventions. with the quantity of players involved and the sub-interests involved it would be decades for a mutually agreeable patform to reach proposal, then probably a few more if ever to be ratified.

[MAN777]

Remember this is the country that our military (UK) wants to share some military assets with :rolleyes:

"EVERYBODY OUT" :rolleyes:

[Alsacienne]

OK so you may not believe it .... but in France* there is no mention of ANY ATC action or anybody else's 'inaction' until 23 September in any form of public media. Just another random point for this topic.

(Or at least in Alsace where I live ....)

[blue up]

Who currently has sovereignty over the no-fly areas of the former Yugoslavia? Just curious.:E

[BrATCO]

OK so you may not believe it .... but in France* there is no mention of ANY ATC action or anybody else's 'inaction' until 23 September in any form of public media. Just another random point for this topic.

(Or at least in Alsace where I live ....) Same in Brest ACC ! (forgot to say)

There are delays on take-over hours due to the "service minimum", but flow management procedures are usually removed when the new team checks in. That's a collateral effect of a part of the "stick to the rule" thing we've been imposed plus the nation-wide call to strike for civil servants... long to explain.
All in all, (I think) the call to strike won't be followed by French ATC (until 23rd)

Even though many might like to protest harder (whatever the reason), French controllers are not insane enough to go on a week-long strike.

@blue up,
NATO? UN ?
Who minds ? As these areas are forbidden, no way to make money...:}

[AF jockey]

These recurrent strikes/work-to-rule actions have become unbareable to all pilots and more so to French pilots (and operators) who have to put up with this on every single flight they operate !!! Increasing exasperation has built up and ATCOs now bear a really poor image in the pilots' and the public eyes. However, I would like to damper a bit on this week's marmalade !

What we have been witnessing and will be witnessing until the 23rd is the produce of a specific union, a bunch of nutters, former (still ?:E) communists : CGT. This group is suspected of having strived towards the destabilization of the country in the 70's and 80's, working hand in hand with the communist party and the Soviet Union. In the name of the workers's sake, of course, which makes the fight a lot more romantic. Now, what is left of them is just shambles but the Revolution spirit is still there.

Most ATCOs have nothing to do with this call for strike and disapprove of it. For some reason, a tiny minority is succeeding in messing things up. Eventhough very few people at the DGAC (French CAA which incorporates ATC) abide by this call for strike, it still has some impact on operations.

From what I understand, these successive strikes have come to such an annoyance to the whole country that it has been decided to get rid of the ATCOs system in the form we know once and for good. What they've succeeded in being such a pain in the bu.m is achieving their own doom. Honestly, nobody will come to their rescue nor will cry over their sad fate as they're harvesting what they've been sowing over the years. The latest story about the requirement to check in at work (yes, they do have to check in, can you believe that ????) has brought exasperation to a climax here in France.

Now they're done.

[jumpseater]

Proposal: If the French won't provide an ATC service then some significant portion of their airspace should be delegated to an ATC provider who will do so whenever a strike takes place. Just one example.....delegate airspace west of a line BHD.....ARE.....DELOG and operate a series of "Tango" type routes. The French must not be allowed to hold the whole of Europe to ransom and inconvenience by using Airspace denial as a political and economic weapon.
What do you think?

I think you've had a few too many e numbers from that Tango you've been drinking.

Where are the sector rated controllers to operate the airspace/routes going to come from?
How will they stay current?
Will there be a similar team of strike buster ATCO's for Greece and/or any other nationality that has been, or may go on strike in the future?

I think the French probably had the Military tests arranged for quite a while, it's not unusual for them to be on a weekend from my previous flight planning experience. It's also fair to say when those excercises on a normal day, (non-strike) are completed or cancelled, the return to 'normal' flow rates is very swift.

You don't suppose the Union saw that excercise and realised they could get more bang for their buck by striking on a day when airspace would be restricted anyway? ...

[BrATCO]

So, at the end of the day, this missile test (normal military activity, no industrial action from French Navy !:rolleyes:), did it occur this afternoon or not ?

[30W]

05516K,

Obviously a difficult and frustrating session down on 'west'.......

Yes, as a 'customer' I'd love to see as you propose, but realistically we all know it'll never happen. Think yourself lucky to some degree - at least you go home on time each shift (maybe even earlier 50% of the time;)) Every flight I've operated via French or come to mind Spanish airspace this summer has been a joke, with no firm plan of when I will return home.....

Frustration building all round I know, but I have to say in BrATCO's defence, I find Brest controllers extremely professional, and accommodating as soon as on their frequencies. I know the reputation, but if they're under attack, perhaps we can all learn from the way they they collectively defend themselves (pension changes spings to mind..??)

Keep up the good work on 'west', regards to Smokes and Aydn, and I'll buy you a costa next time I visit....

Rgds
30W

[BrATCO]

@AF jockey :
Even though this thread was due to a missile test, I appreciate your support towards French controllers for what it's worth.:yuk:

Yes, we have to check-in. But there's so much behind, you don't seem to even have a clue. Or you don't care...

Too bad. The changes I foresee could be desatrous to your company and others on a medium/long-haul perspective.
e.g. : French controllers were very proud to work in a cheap public-service(no profit allowed). There will be a huge increase in taxes within the next few years. In fact, as soon as French ATC will be allowed to make benefits.
other e.g : This year, we're dealing with 10% more traffic than last year. With not more controllers, almost no more trainees.
The government tries to convince unions to sign an "agreement" which will remove 200 controllers (-5 %, there are 200 controllers in Reims ACC) from service within 3 years. If IATA is right, there will be some more traffic then.
So, in the end, what do we choose ? More delay, less safety or more taxes to replace low-cost controllers by expensive ones who will be helped by very expensive machines. Don't forget the share-holders (I trust you here) !
And don't forget the situation in Spain or Australia...

But, as you say, we're already done. Good luck to you, anyway.

And once again, the ongoing call for strike is nationwide... And it is not followed in French ATC ! :ugh:
I agree with you on this : There won't be more than 2.5 million people "peripapetiting" in the streets just because we have to check-in !

Do you think they will move for you (once more), next time you encounter problems to pay the bill to the oncoming private French ANSP ?

@30W :
I do appreciate your support for what it's worth ! :)
Your post "warms my heart" a bit and I will be glad to be as professional as possible next time I talk to you. :ok:

[aldegar]

Yes, we have to check-in. But there's so much behind

Actually, that's how everything started in Spain. They started hitting us with a small wooden stick and ended up throwing the atomic bomb.

Looks like they are following the same plan as with us over there, and they are not done with us yet. I can see huge and very black CBs in our horizon... So be very careful and expect the unexpected.

[AF jockey]

BrATCO, please try not to make your story too short because you're missing several critical points as well.

The reason you have to check in from now is your boss wants to put an end to the "clairances" system that used to (or still, I wouldn't know) allow a number of people in each group to stay away from work everytime low trafic "allowed" so. Getting paid while gently sitting at home is a pretty good deal obviously but it doesn't sound like a good option when frequencies get overflowed and you get one same controller speaking to aircraft on delivery, apron, and all ground frequencies.

As a result of that, your boss has decided you guys would have your shifts worked out individually which delivers way more flexibility, efficiency and you don't find yourselves in situations whereby, say, 8 people are working (i.e. a whole group) when only two are needed or when the whole group is needed and only two are working.

Obviously, designing staff requirements based on this new efficient formula mechanically creates excess staff. People retiring will not be replaced and you will quickly see you numbers decline. I find this very similar to the fight led by Air Inter/Air France pilots when new generation aircraft made 2-pilot crews the standard as opposed to three : strikes, strikes, strikes. But that only made things worse for them in terms of image, fighting for a lost cause. It is ridiculous to have 3 pilots in a cockpit designed for two just as it is ridiculous to have a whole bunch of indians working on a quiet day.

Please note I never felt you guys were making too much money. You deserve what you earn and that's none of my business anyway. I really don't feel happy with the idea of you being treated the way the spaniards are at the moment. I want you guys to be happy but surely not with the methods in vogue for the past many years.

I can't see how the new system will cost dreadfully more than today as your numbers will be lower and DGAC total costs are pegged on staff volumes mainly (as opposed to airlines who need to add a pinch of jet fuel, some leasing costs, depreciation, and the lot in the potion...). And even if profits will now be allowed, they might well be offset by lower internal costs anyway.

And I cannot see how this new system will affect my airline any more than it ever has. Honestly, this "clairances" system has always been a right pain and your unnumbered strikes over the years have cost hugely to my airline (and all others). It cannot be worse now.

Regarding the fact the call for strike is not being followed in French ATC, that's what I clarified in my post : I made it clear that ATC was not part of the storm - apart from several morons in specific centers (Aix, Orly). (How in hell do we get 30 to 60 minute CTOTs then, by the way ???)

[saintex2002]

Again and again, and within the framework of the declared war of our governments and EU against all the European collective community of ATCOs :
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...

[Lon More]

Saintex you'll never get the Brits in :O

[saintex2002]

Dear LM' , be not so sure of it... ;)

[aldegar]

Again and again, and within the framework of the declared war of our governments and EU against all the European collective community of ATCOs :
Just let us create finally our own European private company of ANSP...
That becomes urgent, folks...

Absolutely true and I totally agree with you. Looks like a coordinated action of all EU countries against us looking forward to the single sky project.

MOSAIC (www.project-mosaic.eu (http://www.project-mosaic.eu)) could also be the answer. What is really clear is that we must ALL fight together :ok:

[DFC]

To remove state soverignty overspace would open up a pandoras box.



Just to clarify one point.

As one can see from the ICAO Convention a country's soverign airspace lies above it's soverign territory.

As far as I am aware French Territory (just like UK Territory) extends to 12nm from the shoreline.

T9 is not in French Soverign Airspace. It is over International Waters and thus is international airspace.

France has by agreement been charged with providing ATS in certain FIR's through which T9 passes. Part of this is that they establish danger Areas to segregate OAT Training, firing etc from GAT. However, these missile exercises are taking place over the high seas and as such are outside the territory of any nation.

The problem is how do you operate in controlled airsspace and through an active danger area even if it is over international waters without endangering.

If the French really thought about it they could have established some firing UNL/SFC out under T14 and T16 as well and had airspace in Shanwick closed off also!! :E Now that would cause some "good moaning Pierre" :)

[saintex2002]

MOSAIC (MOSAIC (http://www.project-mosaic.eu)) could also be the answer. What is really clear is that we must ALL fight together

...With MOSAIC working, we'll face the same today's problems in a short while...
No, MOSAIC is not the right answer...
...Creating our own private ANSP ruled by the whole European collective community of ATCOs is the real final answer...
No other ways... Following MOSAIC or what else OFF-ROADS...
Methinks... ;)

[BrATCO]

AF jockey,
"Clairances" are dead and buried. They rest in peace.
Let's move on.

I can't see how the new system will cost dreadfully more than today

Keynes (was he a dangerous international Marxist ?) in his theories on macro-economy said (among other things) that governments should invest in infrastructures (roads, energy, communications, public services,...) and ensure that their prices remain low because, for any investment, the return would be higher. Indeed, governments must raise taxes to invest, but companies still earn more money by being able to rely on healthy infrastructures which are comparatively less expensive. According to Keynes, everybody wins in keeping public services cheap and effective.

Look at your electricity bill, and gas, and fuel, and highways, and telephone, etc ... since they were privatized.
You'll answer that your phone bill is cheaper now.
For you, no doubt. But whichever your provider, the hotline is abroad. So that's one job less within France, so you pay more taxes for the French unemployed. Besides, your phone provider pays its taxes abroad, not in France. So your French employer who pays his taxes in France must pay more to compensate.
No, your employer will not pay more because taxes must stay low.
So we have an unemployed in France who does not manufacture anything, he's costly to society, forcing the debt of France to increase. It is cheaper for you because your children will pay the bill ... Will it be less expensive than when we had nationalised providers?
We could reduce welfare, but still according to Keynes and his income/consumption rate, that's a bad idea.

Currently, taxes for French ATC are cheaper than those of our FABEC partners. We are a public service, others are not ... We are cheaper, they are not... Does it make your mind ?

Ok, we can reduce staffing. Why not ?
German controllers are already half as much as we are, their taxes are more expensive. Same in Switzerland, same in Maastricht, same in the UK, same in Spain ...(you all, don't take it too badly !)
French ATC already deals with 28% of the traffic with only 24% of the staff in the FABEC (source: Eurocontrol). You call us inefficient and expensive ? Why not, you must be right...

Anyway, we can not remove half the French staff...
So French ATC will become more expensive than the others. Is it good for you in the competition between LH, BA and AF ?
Or, as taxes will be harmonized in FABEC, will other European controllers have to earn as little as we do in order to lower their taxes at our level ? How will they accept that ?
Or will shareholders have to forget about their profits to enable private companies to thrive? (As we did after the ash cloud by offering the service, while we were already in problems.)
Still not sure...

Our boss has told journalists that he does not understand why we are angry because everything we risk is to earn more money.
My feeling is that money is becoming less of a problem now. As civil-servants, we can not earn more, which is not necessarily bad, given what I just wrote. Clearances were tolerated for 40 years to partially offset the wage differential with other European controllers. As time is money, let's imagine that they accounted for 10 or 20 per cent (or even 30 if you wish) increase in our salaries, we were still far from the others. They no longer exist, so another (cheaper ?) solution has to be found...

Meanwhile, we are insulted in the press. I've read "lazy", "overpaid", "irresponsible", "unprofessional" in papers. Were they talking about me ?(I read those words on this forum too, but i don't mind : here, they are just "rumours")
Undoubtedly the aim is to destabilize controllers... Funny concept: "destabilizing controllers". As pilots, controllers are trained to resist the pressure. In the most difficult moments they will never give up. That's their job.
That must be why you see a connection with the pilots' strikes in the 90's.

By the way, will you stay as calm when the number of pilots will decrease from 2 to 1, then 0 ?
I hope not. And you'll have my total support. Nothing personal, it's just a question of safety ... thus macro-economy ...

From my point of view (according to Keynes ?), ATC (ie : infrastructure) should not have become an industry, it should have remained a service. Aviation needs money (a lot !), but earning money with it is bad .
ATC, fuel, airport taxes should decrease. Even my salary could decrease (a little !) if necessary, while remaining compatible with my responsibilities. Serving my country, Europe and the World's economy is important to me, as much a my wages. But I think I deserve a little more respect than what I'm being provided right now.

Respect seems to me the key.
Say "please" and "thank you" could do better than insults or threats. Maybe even better that increase our salaries (Hey, Hey ! That would have been a cheap solution !).

Anyway, I have no idea how this will end up, but I think it will be more expensive in the long term.
Flying in France, you have benefitted a cheap ATC in france since the beginning. This is nearly over. You wished it, you'll get it soon.
Hence my expression : "Good luck, anyway". Your company will cost me a lot again, whichever the way I pay.

[edit] :
The best way to avoid the inconvenience of a strike is and will always be to remove the reasons for the strike.
[end edit]


How in hell do we get 30 to 60 minute CTOTs then, by the way ???)If I followed the situation, the CTOTs are very hard in the morning, then get better and here we go again in the evening.
This is a garbling between the strike call, the "minimum service" law for transports, the French constitution, our rosters, and (maybe) the lack of trust between management and controllers (both ways).
We're working on that.

We are civil servants, our job is to provide a service for everyone's good.
Just let us do.

Is my story long enough this time ?
Hard to explain why French government fired a missile test Saturday afternoon...