Do you three point, or wheel land?

[Pilot DAR]

Hey, tailwheel pilots here...

Is it generally your practice to three point, or wheel land the taildraggers you fly?

I was taught to threepoint, with no emphasis on wheel landing untill I did some circuits in a large taildragger twin. Most of my experience has been on C180/185 (Paradropping), and J3/PA-18 (mostly skis). They all seem very happy to be three pointed. The taildragger I have at present does not. Three pointing works, but if it's a good landing, it seems more luck than skill.

While landing it recently with what I suspected might be a tailwheel which did not extend, and lock down properly, I slightly wheel landed, and then held the tail as light as I could as long as I could. I got a great landing! After confirming that the tailwheel was in fact locked down, I did a number more wheel landings with equal success, to the point where I can have just about full stick forward just after touchdown. I've done about 30 such landings since then, and don't think I'd ever try to three point this plane again!

Perhaps my original training (Citabria and Tiger Moth) was not as broad as it should have been...

What can I learn from this revelation?

[SNS3Guppy]

It depends what I'm flying. A cub or Cessna 140, I nearly always three point. In the Dromader or Air Tractor, I nearly always land on the mains.

Some airplanes naturally feel better one way or the other. For some, visibility plays a role and it's easier to wheel land in order to see where you're going. In short field situations, I've met some who insist on the three point, and I can't disagree, but I usually two point the bigger airplanes and suck up the flaps while it's on two wheels.

Where reverse is an option (eg, Dromader, Air Tractor, Thrush, etc) I prefer to have the tail on the ground before applying reverse.

Try landing an AT-802 with the tailwheel unlocked, three point...there's a recipe to go for a wild ride.

[UV]

If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane ... (apart from some high performance or heavy types).

You can, of course, make it as difficult as you want..(like most thngs in aviation)!

UV

[Pilot DAR]

If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane

I don't really see that. Be it on two or three wheels, while in motion in a tricycle aircraft, you maintain some pitch control over the aircraft. You can raise, or lower the nose somewhat, to reduce the effects of a bounce, whether caused by poor technique, or rough ground.

If you get a tailwheel on the ground, you have largely lost the ability to change the pitch of the whole aircraft with the elevator, because the tail (where the elevator is) is on the ground, and short of lifting the tail off again, you can no longer control the pitch of the aircraft. Thus, if uneven ground causes a bounce of the mains, there is very little you can do to correct for it using pitch control of the aircraft. So, you can end up with the tail wheel on the ground, and the mains bouncing on and off, until you're slower than stall speed for the three point angle of attack.

Alternatively, you land so slowly that the tailwheel touches first, then again, you loose pitch control, and cannot control the rate at which the mains contact the ground. If it bounces, there's little to do, other than ride it out.

Whereas, if you wheel land it, you can hold lots of nose down/tail up, so as to hold a very low angle of attack, so the wing has no inclination to fly, if bounced on rough ground. By the time the tail settles (with full stick forward), you're well below stall speed, so no bounce can happen.

If you tried that on a tricycle (and I've seen it - accidentally, I hope!) if you manage to maintain directional control, you've put an immense load on the nosewheel. I cannot imagine a piloting technique which involves deliberately lowering the angle of attack to near zero, on the ground, in a tricycle. You're trying to keep the nosewheel light as much as possible.

I'm not writing all of this, because I'm a wheel landing advocate, it just seems to work for this plane! Though the flight manual says to three point it. I'm not sure why, because a prop strike during a wheel landing would be impossible for this aircraft, so wheel landing seems to be good all the way around, and I think of minimizing abuse to the tailwheel as a bonus!

I'm still not sure I'd have the confidence to wheel land a 185, though I have seen it done...

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I generally wheel land most every tail wheel airplane I have flown....the only exception being the Pitts special.

If conditions require a three point then I will three point..in most airplanes......never tried to three point the Grumman Turbo Goose though.

[S-Works]

Depends on the type. Our turbine Tailwheels are wheeled. My Auster was nigh on impossible to wheel.

Horses for courses.:ok:

[JW411]

DH Tiger Moth, Piston Provost etc - three point.

DH Rapide - definitely wheel on.

[kevmusic]

I like to 3-point because it's satisfying (a bit like playing a good rim-shot) and it's standard on the aircraft I was taught - Cub, Jodel D150, Tiger Moth and Turbulent. But, anything more than a light crosswind and on the mains she goes.

[UV]

If you land a nose wheel aeroplane properly, it is really no different to landing a tail wheel aeroplane ... (apart from some high performance or heavy types

DAR, what I meant by this is that,is for simple tailwheel types, the approach and hold off, if conducted properly, are the same for both nose wheel and tailwheel aircraft...the same technique works on both types.

If a tail wheel areoplane is properly and fully flared it will land without bouncing, as will a nose wheel aircraft. Most pilots do not flare their nose wheel aircraft fully.

The decision as to whether to use the 3 point or wheeler landing is another discussion and depends on type/circumstances etc.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When would you three point a DC3?

[Flying Lawyer]

Almost always three point: Chipmunk, Tiger Moth, Stampe, Jodel D150, Turbulent, Harvard (Texan)T6 / SNJ.
Usually wheel on: Broussard.
Always wheel on: Beech 18.

cjboy
I suspect Chuck's tongue was in his cheek when he posed that question. ;)

PilotDAR They all seem very happy to be three pointed. The taildragger I have at present does not. What is it?

[Big Pistons Forever]

When doing tailwheel conversions I start with 3 point landings because it is a more natural transition for a pilot coming from a nose wheel aircraft. When they master them I introduce the wheel landing. I personally have never had any problem 3 pointing any of the common light aircraft in any conditions, but I am sure there are aircraft out there that do better with a wheel landing. It seems to me you just have to expereiment to find out what works best.

Heavier taildraggers like the Beech 18 or larger are always wheel landed.

[P.Pilcher]

One of my flying stories coming up for what it's worth:

In the dim distant days when I had just obtained my PPL, learning on a Cessna 150 and a Rollason Condor which I was always taught to land on three points, I wanted to check out on a Chipmunk. Although I had no difficulty flying the thing, I found landings particularly difficult. My instructor, with only a little experience on the Chippie wanted me to three point it - a perfectly reasonable thing to expect. After about two sessions of circuit bashing I appeared to be getting nowhere, so in the pub that night I bumped into a friend who had loads of Chipmunk instructional experience. "Get your instructor to let you wheel land it" was his advice and he then told me how to do a wheeler.
After following his instructions with my instructor in the back I was off solo after three circuits! After several solo hours on the aircraft, I managed to three point it and continued to do so ever since.

P.P.

[S-Works]

I am getting Deja a vu............ We tackled this very subject a couple of months ago.....
:rolleyes:

[It flies]

I might have missed something, but what type is giving you trouble?

I'm still a student, but all my landings are three pointers. (PA-18 & Aeronca Champ) So threepoint landings are still being taught today.

...to the point where I can have just about full stick forward just after touchdown. Is this normal practice for a wheel landing? I was taught to move the stick back after (a threepoint) landing and keep it there. Only if a tailwheel shimmy develops some forward movement is permitted.

...and don't think I'd ever try to three point this plane again! Does this (no stalled landings) also apply to crosswind landings?

[Pilot DAR]

I'm fortunate enough to a have a Thruston Teal here at home for a while:

Thurston Teal Amphibian (http://www.seabee.info/teal.htm)

They are a little unusual on wheels, in that they have their main wheels a long way ahead of the C of G, to account for the high thrust line. Thus, when you bounce it, or hit a bump, there is a pitch change. It's easy to get porposing if you are not careful.

If a tail wheel aeroplane is properly and fully flared it will land without bouncing

I entirely agree, and always do in tricycles. After the first few landings in the Teal, I proved to myelf, I could not make this work in the Teal. If I fully flared it, the tail wheel was on before the mains. Then I had no pitch control at all, and a bounce was a certainty, as the mains dropped on.

And, yes, yesterday's landings were stick smoothly fully forward to maintain pitch attitude upon touchdown, and held until the tail went down on it's own. It worked perfectly every time. I have yet to put this to the test in a big crosswind (a bit nervous of it), but in a steady six knot crosswind, it was just fine. I'm not sure what tailwheel "normal" is, but I'm getting the idea there is not one.

When would you three point a DC3?

I've only landed a DC-3 about ten times. I was taught to never attempt to wheel land it. My one bounced landing (a bit slow) became an immediate go around, as I felt the power levers being pushed up under my hand, and saw torque meters in the yellow.

[IFMU]

I was taught to wheel land during primary training in a PA12. My instructor considered it harder and therefore focused on it. Those skills carried over for a long time into everything else I flew with a tailwheel, and I could even wheel on the S2A just fine. My acro instructor thought it was odd but he thought I seemed to know where the runway was. I was weak in 3-point landings.

Since I started towing on Harris Hill some years ago, where we only have 1100' and it runs downhill in one direction, I have really become proficient at the 3 point landing. Chews up a lot more energy than wheeling it on at a higher speed.

Both options are good.

-- IFMU

[Mark 1]

CEA in their manuals for the DR220/221/250 suggest a slightly tailwheel first landing.
I've always found that a bit harsh and prefer to 3-point Jodels, although that technique seems to work well for Austers, Taylorcraft and the like. A 3-pointer will always use the least runway ,if that's an issue.
With the RVs, I've found that 3 pointers work well for the tapered rod gears but the flat bar varieties like the -8 seem to behave better with a wheeler.
My top tip is to hiold a little nose-up trim for a 3-point landing and a little nose down for a wheeler.
I rarely managed to wheel on the Cessna 120 succesfully; just too springy.

[SNS3Guppy]

We tackled this very subject a couple of months ago.....

There are no new threads under the sun.

[MarkerInbound]

My one bounced landing (a bit slow) became an immediate go around, as I felt the power levers being pushed up under my hand, and saw torque meters in the yellow.

If you had torque meters, you weren't flying a real Three.

I've heard you can break the back of the plane if a three point goes bad. Especially C-47s where a quarter of the fuselage is cut for the door. Did it a few times in a regular Three (three points, not breaking the plane's back!) don't recall trying in a Super Three and my Turbo Three time is next to nil.

[S-Works]

A 3-pointer will always use the least runway ,if that's an issue.

Depends on the aircraft. I can put nearly 5t down in around 150m from a wheeler. We don't ever 3 point the 28'sit way to hard on the tail and the viz is not great either.

[First_Principal]

I've heard you can break the back of the plane if a three point goes bad. Especially C-47s where a quarter of the fuselage is cut for the door.

I've heard that too, I've only ever flown the C-47 and have only ever wheeled it on. I believe the person that taught me may have three-pointed it once or twice but he's got 20k+ hours so has the experience to try these things. That said I've only ever seen him wheel it as well so it could have just been a rumour!

FP.

[waldopepper42]

Chippy and Jodel, almost always three point.

The Extra requires a slightly different technique, as the nose up attitude within 10 knots of the stall would mean the tailwheel touching well before the mains. Therefore I try to hold the three point attitude till touchdown, and then ease the stick forward to lift the tail and kill the lift from the (still flying) wing. So it's basically a three point wheeler! :O

I'm sure there are many more expert fliers out there with better ideas, but this one seems to work best for me.

[S-Works]

Chippy, I always wheel on. Better view and better x-wind.

[Fitter2]

Super Cub, 3-point for pride and pleasure if more or less into wind.

In a stiff gusting crosswind, wheels and whip the flaps up once on the ground.

Works every time for me.

[Unusual Attitude]

Still getting to grips with the Cassutt but so far 3 point works best for me. Finding the wheelers a bit 'bouncy' for the moment but am a bit rusty after a 10 year break from tailwheel types so its more likely my gash technique than the aircraft.....:hmm:

[maxred]

Looked at this thread yesterday and commenced to comment, but lost IT connection:bored:
My tail wheel time is all Chipmunk/Cub/YAK50/Super Cub - all required differing techniques due to weather (wind), runway (length/width), speed on approach (ie is stable at flare etc), and importantly 'feel them on'.

I never actually worried wether it was 'three point', or 'main wheel'. My concern usually is to get it as right as I can every time.

I am a check pilot on L4 Cub, and with all converstion guys on this type I tell them three point, due to the weight and float charactistics on this type.

[maxred]

Bose -x

Do you set up for a main wheel all the time on the Chippy?