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View Full Version : Who is Qualified to Perform a clear Ice Check?


j_davey
16th Sep 2010, 19:39
Hi all,

As per the Title, Who is Qualified to perform a clear Ice Check?
I was under the impression that it would have to be either Flight Deck Crew or a Qualified Line Engineer, however due to a recent memo in work i would like to know if this is the case?

I would hate to see Non-Qualifed personnel performing this task but with commercial pressures to lower costs, i feel it may be the case that Airline Reps and/or Ground staff may think they are within their rights to perform it.

Any Thoughts?

-jd

robert f jones
16th Sep 2010, 20:01
This used to be the task of the pilot/flight engineer doing the external check, but this all changed with large aircraft (DC10 and & 747 with high control surface areas) plus of course, for example the de-icer rig at Charles de Gaulle Paris. That was my first experience of the resident engineer signing out the clearance. That gave me no problem at all because he was a dedicated, extremely knowledgeable man, and watching the operation from 20- 30feet above the fuselage. Plus of course the amout of fluid used was enormous but recycled.
Don't worry about the commercial aspect of the task, apart from two UK low cost operators who seem to cancel or severely delay their flights in extreme conditions. Possibily because they don't sign up for a de-icing contract.
Hope this helps.

j_davey
16th Sep 2010, 20:04
fwiw, A/c type is MD81/82 , clear ice check is requested when, Correct me if i`m wrong, Fuel heat is inop.

TOWTEAMBASE
16th Sep 2010, 20:14
it would never be up to an unqualified member of ground crew. We all follow the AEA recommendations, and are very well trained, and audited throught the year. so rest assured you are in safe hands as far as ground handling agents go

j_davey
16th Sep 2010, 20:34
TOWTEAMBASE it would never be up to an unqualified member of ground crew. We all follow the AEA recommendations, and are very well trained, and audited throught the year. so rest assured you are in safe hands as far as ground handling agents go

That's exactly what I would have thought but I'm a bit concerned that in this case it is being performed on occasion by unqualified Airline Staff/Representative.

TOWTEAMBASE
16th Sep 2010, 20:40
well, in the uk,your looking at 5 years picking up bars of soap at her majesty's pleasure if you endanger the aircraft and/or its occupants, not to mention what you would have to live with after. You would need to know what you were looking for in the first place really

TOWTEAMBASE
16th Sep 2010, 20:42
what does the memo say that puts doubt in your mind

j_davey
16th Sep 2010, 21:04
Pm sent...

411A
16th Sep 2010, 21:21
Who is Qualified to Perform a clear Ice Check?
With our small company, the pilots, flight engineers, and...ground engineers.
IF they say...'we need deicing'...it is done, no questions asked.
And, the head shed...offers no objection.

Fine by me.
Better safe than....sorry.

Now, some might object to 'frost' on the underside of the wing.
This...is ignored, by myself and other Commanders.
Because, it is part and parcel of jet ops....and has been for over forty years.

spannersatcx
16th Sep 2010, 22:43
All the aircraft I release have a block or otherwise to sign for de/anti-icing and as such forms part of a legal document and not just anybody can write and sign for things in a tech log.

lomapaseo
16th Sep 2010, 22:48
As per the Title, Who is Qualified to perform a clear Ice Check?


Qualified to me means anybody with proper training and responsibilities.

Not much different than a Blue-ice check.

I believe the regulations say something about "no person may takeoff...."

To me that suggests that the pilot must ensure that a qualified person has made the determination. It's up to the operating certificate holder to determine the qualiifications to the satisfaction of the pilot.

Agaricus bisporus
17th Sep 2010, 01:55
In 25 years in european aviation I've never heard the expression "Clear Ice Check" before. Is this commonly used phraseology? (Think not)

Does it differ from a Rime Ice check?

Perhaps I've been missing out!

411A
17th Sep 2010, 03:57
Does it differ from a Rime Ice check?

Yes.
If you find rime ice in your gin/tonic, it should be sent back to the bartender.:}

mr.newfy
17th Sep 2010, 16:36
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa11.pdf
the above link has a good explanation of icing types and formation.

lomapaseo
17th Sep 2010, 17:01
As posted above, the "cold corner" occurence of clear ice on an MD80 is explained above.

However it is not unique to that aircraft nor the cold corners on other aircraft. In fact the MD80 incident at DTW above was not a cold fuel related incident at all.

Clear ice is similar to the term "black ice" commonly found on roadways after an overnight drizzle (ala the incident at DTW mentioned above). It is extremely difficult to be seen since you see right through it to either a clean metallic surface or a dark roadway. However it can be felt by loss of friction while stepping or driving on it.

The MD80 problem was exacerbated by the engines being directly behind an ice shed.

In most other cases the ice that has caused accidents has been the stuff covered by snow, where the visible snow is removed (ala the SAS MD80) but the clear ice underneath was not detected and removed.

At any rate, enough is now known about it and you can fly safe if you follow the manufacturers recommendations before flight.

TURIN
17th Sep 2010, 21:47
Concur all the above, but I have to say there are certain individuals who work around live aircraft who think they can 'determine' whether ice is present. More to the point, without proper training they feel they have the ability to make a decision based purely on the following phrase....

"BUT, BUT, WE'LL GET A DELAY!!!:mad::mad:


No names, but I'm sure you've all met em. :suspect: