IMC Rating

[englishal]

If a person holds an IMC rating, can you file an IFR flight plan? If so how do you notify ATC that you are not Instrument rated and cannot accept certain clearances (ie into ClassA)? Does the IMC rating allow the holder to fly in the clouds or is it purely for a transition to VFR on top?

What does the IMC course consist of, I suppose that as it is only 15 hrs that it can only cover the basic attitude instrument flying plus shooting the ILS etc.?

[sanjosebaz]

Here is the URL of a FAQ from a US training school offering IMC training. I just searched google for "IMC Rating". There are other hits, but this one seems to answer your questions:
http://www.ukft.com/faq.html

There is no such thing as IMC in FAA - I wish there was - it's a good halfway house, if all you want to do is fly in instrument wx :(

Another hit shows that IMC allows you to fly:
Out of sight of the surface

In a control zone on a special VFR clearance with flight visibility of less than 10km but not less than 3km.

During takeoff and landing with flight visibility below cloud of not less than 1800m.

When in IMC outside of controlled airspace notified for the purpose of Schedule 8 to the Air Navigation Order (ANO)*.

Carrying passengers above 300ft above mean sea level (AMSL) in IMC or in flight visibility less than 5km at or below that height, when outside controlled airspace notified for the purpose of Schedule 8.


[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: sanjosebaz ]

[bookworm]

If a person holds an IMC rating, can you file an IFR flight plan?

Yes. (You don't, in fact, even have to have an IMC rating to file an IFR flight plan or fly IFR in the UK outside controlled airspace, but those without are limited to an in flight visibility of 3 km.)

If so how do you notify ATC that you are not Instrument rated and cannot accept certain clearances (ie into ClassA)?

I suggest you make sure that the filed route/level is consistent with remaining outside class A. Apart from that, all you can do is notify the controller if you feel it is necessary or appropriate.

Does the IMC rating allow the holder to fly in the clouds or is it purely for a transition to VFR on top?

Yes, it allows flight 'in the clouds' provided the visibility below cloud for take-off and landing is at least 1800 m.

How can you learn to fly under IFR in IMC safely in 15 hours? That's the toughest question...

BTW sanjosebaz's quote is at least 5 years out of date. TryThe ANO 2000 (http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2000/20001562.htm) Schedule 8, in particular Part B - Ratings for the letter of the law.

[Fuji Abound]

One other thought - in terms of clearances you can always refuse a clearance if you are not able to comply and indeed ATC are often aware that you may not be able to comply. For example you will often hear the controller in class D airspace ask if you need to maintain VFR. In any event a clearance, regardless of the plan filed, is best thought of as a negotiated contract between you and the controller, it is requested by you, accepted or denied by the controller, and the terms of that clearance then confirmed or re-negotiated by you.

[Rusty Cessna]

Personally speaking I find a lot of the minima to be ambiguous. I mean, the minima in the PPL Air Law books is spot on for the CAA publications, but apparently is different from that stated in the JAR FCL.

Does anyone know where I can find the definitive answer for minima requirments? Hope I'm not asking too much!!

Rusty.

[Genghis the Engineer]

JAR-FCL is a guidance document, adopted in their own way by different companies. (And occasionally by different people in the CAA, depending upon how they feel that day). Textbooks get out of date too.

The definitive document is the UK AIP. You can find it online, or spend £15 and buy AFE's UK AIM, which includes the AIP. ANO and some useful AICs as well. The AFE copy obviously only gets updated yearly, but that's usually good enough.

G

[Jepp]

Hi , just a quick question,
Can an IMC rated pilot fly an IAP in IMC conditions in class D airspace,
Cheers
Flybabefly

[2Donkeys]

Affirm.

(in the UK :))

[englishal]

Thanks all....

Yep, I do wonder how a pilot can be competent to fly in IMC after only 15 hrs....

[Rusty Cessna]

As I understood it, the reason for one to aquire an IMC rating was so if he or she unitentionally entered IMC conditions, they were equiped with enough knowledge to b able to get out. So being cometent to fly IFR, not extended IFR probably not, but IFR/IMC for the shortest time possible to get back to VFR/VMC, I reckon so?

rusty.

[sanjosebaz]

R.Cessna: In which case, why not make "emergency IMC" part of PPL, like it is in USA? :confused:

[Keef]

The IMC is like any other rating - a licence to learn! When I got mine, I knew (cos I had an excellent instructor) not to try to use it for a long trip in IMC.

After many more hours, some with that instructor, I do now file IFR and fly in IMC for a long stretch, and even enjoy it sometimes. It's an excellent rating if used sensibly - and, like a PPL, a licence to kill yourself if you do it wrong.

I'd LOVE a CAA/JAA IR, but that's not attainable for a bloke like me. FAA IR is on my short-term plan (had a crack at it in September, but enough of that).

[Rusty Cessna]

Emergency IFR is in the sylubus, enough training to ensure you can do a 180 and out safetly.

IMC in my opinion looks great fun, still a little unclear as to what it allows you to do and what not, and what extras it gives, but im going to do one as soon as i can.

Rusty.

[Keef]

The IMC allows you to fly into IMC, provided in Class D or lower airspace (with permission from ATC where needed). It also reduces your "VFR" and "SVFR" minima, and allows you to fly VFR-on-top. It's well worth getting - I reckon a good third of the flying I do would be impossible (legally, at least) without it.

[Noggin]

sanjosebaz

_______________________________________
When in IMC outside of controlled airspace notified for the purpose of Schedule 8 to the Air Navigation Order (ANO)*.

Carrying passengers above 300ft above mean sea level (AMSL) in IMC or in flight visibility less than 5km at or below that height, when outside controlled airspace notified for the purpose of Schedule 8.
____________________________

All out of date and removed about 4 years ago.

[Hooligan Bill]

englishal,

Anyone from PPL upwards can file an IFR plan. In Class G airspace the only two Instrument Flight Rules that apply are the Quadrantal Rule and the Minimum Height Rule and you can elect to fly in accordance with these whatever ratings you do or do not hold. The only requirement is that you operate within the privilages of your license with regard to met conditions, type of airspace you are operating in etc.

[DOC.400]

Second Keef on both points -it's also a damn good discipline, but you MUST keep current.

It's no good going months without any IMC then finding yourself in the poo!

If you getit, USE it! I did about 13 hours genuine IMC out of 50 in my first year with the rating.

Gave so much more to the priviledges of my PPL -and it IS a priviledge. I was only one of 1500 who got PPL's in 1992.

[Whirlybird]

Rusty,

The PPL instrument flying just about enables you to do a 180 in cloud and get out; I know, I ended up having to do so on my first flight after I got my PPL - and it was hard. Cloud is not like foggles; it's bumpy and disorientating and often has nasty bits in it that throw you around. The IMC, as I understand it, enables you to cope if you end up in worse weather than you'd anticipated - to cope with flying in cloud and speaking on the radio and twiddling VORs etc and whatever else you need to get you out. That's very very different.

On a slightly different subject, having just been doing this sort of stuff in a R22 (even more difficult!) for my CPL(H), which I should have very soon if all goes well, does anyone know if I can get any reduction in hours required to do a fixed wing IMC rating?

[twistedenginestarter]

This idea about the IMC Rating being a sort of emergency thing seems to have arisen in the last year or two. Don't know why.

For the UK it should be mandatory for anyone who hasn't got an IR.

A Pilots licence without an IMC/IR is like an open top car. Usable on rare occasions but basically not a serious proposition. :)

[Julian]

But at 15 hours is it really a serious proposition rather than an 'emergency rating'?

[Whirlybird]

twistedenginestarter,

That's probably going a bit far. I've flown over most of the UK with a basic PPL(A). And I'm certainly not unique in this, far from it. So long as you check the weather, are ready to divert if necessary, and generally behave sensibly, it's perfectly possible. It does limit you, admittedly. But I've met a number of relatively inexperienced IMC rated pilots who treat their extra 15 hour qualification almost like an IR, which is potentially far more dangerous. As with everything in flying, being aware and knowing your own limitations are the important things.

[Chilli Monster]

Julian

Believe me - if the 15 hours of IMC instruction is good enough, and you stay current, then it is more than an 'emergency' rating. Bear in mind that the main reason most get it is to fly on top. Then you rarely spend more than 10 minutes in the climb and descent actual IMC before before breaking out into gorgeous VMC.

Having said that - I've used it in anger when I've had to, even flying approaches to IMC minimums - if you stay current it's a lifesaver, and anything that improves your chances of survival if you end up in a bad situation cannot be a bad thing.

CM

[Fuji Abound]

There was a good discussion on this topic recently.

My own opinion is that after passing the IMC you are unlikely to be either confident or safe to fly hard IMC for any length of time. You should however be quite confident climbing through an overcast, and flying in poor visibility. If you keep the skills going, and take the opportunity to fly with others with more experience, I suspect with time and perseverance there is no reason why you should not reach the skill level of an IR. As with so many things, it is not just coping when all is going well, but also when it goes wrong. Flying IMC with a vac. failure, followed by an approach down to minimums is a tough one. I suspect with a brand new IMC rating you would certainly struggle.

[Julian]

Chilli Monster- I agree with what you are saying about the use of the IMC, that of getting you through cloud layers to get you out of the cr*p and into conditions you can cope with, I have no problem with that.

What I was questioning, Whirlybird brought up the same concern, was those who use an IMC rating as if it were an IR. I have heard more than one Instructor say that "The IMC gives you just enough information to get yourself into trouble..."

Julian.

[Chilli Monster]

Julian (& Whirly)

If you're newly qualified - yes. But read further what I and others have said.

Experience & Currencyare the two watchwords here. It also helps if you've been taught it properly in the first place of course.

[Julian]

I have re-read and it seems to be pretty much a divided camp on this subject.

If the IMC was sufficient to go IMC whenever you felt like it (as opposed to transitioning IMC), then why have an IR course at all????

It still seems to me to be an 'emergency' rating. Yes it can get you down in when you are in trouble and yes you will need to remain current as with any rating.

Its a bit like someone being issued a provisonal drivers licence and then shooting off up the M1 on his own.

Julian.