Landing fees (again)

[Kirstey]

Hi, first post for me and a women driver I'm afraid! Least I don't have to reverse park a 152!

Just one question - the flying club I'm with charges the airport landing fee and touch and go fee which is inclusive of VAT and then adds another 17.5% on top of this. With the 10 circuits I did on saturday it all adds up! Is this common practice and what possible justification could there be for this?

ta!

[Dan Dare]

Sounds like you're being ripped off. Come to West London Aero Club near Maidenhead. No Landing Fees. They are the best club I've flown from (and I've known a few) and a great, social bar to boot!

[FlyingForFun]

I'll agree with Dan on WLAC, at White Waltham.

Just to clarify though, the "no landing fees" only applies to members (which includes all club planes, because you have to be a member to hire).

But yes, it does sound to me like you are being ripped off.

FFF
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[Aussie Andy]

Hi Kirstey,

Agree on both fronts - a) you're being double-chargedo n the VAT and b) most clubs have arrangements for students not to be charged landing fees at home-base! Try British Airways Flying Club - http://www.bafc.co.uk - its located at Wycombe, and open to non-BA staff (like me)... very professional standards and lovely aircraft.


Andy

[SteveR]

Yep. A rip off, but not uncommon I'm afraid. Some schools quote the total cost to get a PPL without mentioning landing fees, and as you've noticed, at certain stages of training you are really bashing 'em out - this is scandalous I reckon.

Some airfields charge even their home based a/c for each landing (Biggin Hill for example) - this is another sizeable pain in the wallet.

Good old Rochester does *not* charge home a/c for landings, and my school charged the same for each lesson, regardless how many landings I made. So I'm staying put. (Crikey, some of my landings were so bouncy I could've been charged three times per circuit...)

Steve R

[Kirstey]

Cheers everyone,

Steve - I don't have a problem paying for Landings & T/Gs (although I'd rather not) I do have a problem paying double VAT. I mean the way I see it is the landing fee is a transaction between pilot and the airport.

anyway other operators on the field charge landing fees without "commision" so I guess I'll have to switch!

[Julian]

I may be able to offer an idea on why this is so. I own a company which is VAT registered, if I incur any expense which are passed onto the client I have to add VAT to my invoice - even if the expenses have already incurred VAT. Its a VAT rule rather than the club.

The only way I can see to get round it would be to pay your landing fees direct to the airport owner rather than through the club, that way you save one lot of 17.5%

I may be wrong but its a start! :D

[Kirstey]

Cheers Julian.

That does make some sense. Although every other club on the field charges 10.64 + vat rather than 12.50+vat so even if I'm not being shafted like good 'un, there is an economic case for them to comply!

anyway I've decided. They cut their costs or I exercise the benefits of our free market economy!

[A and C]

This has the smell of cabair about it or is my nose telling me lies !

[Kirstey]

lol - not this time. Shoreham is all I'll say at the moment, until I've brought this up at the weekend.

[Ace Rimmer]

Give us a clue, Assuming this mob is based in the terminal, are they up stairs or on the ground floor? :D

[Kirstey]

Just a little clue then!

They're based at PremiAir House!

[SlipSlider]

Kirstey, based on the facts as you state them, you are indeed being incorrectly over double charged the VAT uplift, and the club may therefore be keeping 17.5% profit on the landing fees; not illegal by any means, but if they say they are only passing on their costs...... It is a common VAT mistake that is sometimes made innocently .... and sometimes not. Julian, no doubt you come under the former! I'd rather talk flying anytime than talk VAT, but here goes ..... (hope no-one objects, everyone hates VAT ... don't they?)A=Airport C=Club P=Pilot HMCE=VAT man

Correct process:
A bills C £100+£17.50 VAT = £117.50
and pays HMCE £17.50 Output tax

C pays A £117.50 and reclaims Input tax of £17.50 from HMCE leaving net cost £100.

C bills P(who pays)£100+£17.50=£117.50
C pays HMCE £17.50 (Output tax)
C pays £100 net/receives £100 net = NIL
P pays £117.50

Incorrect process:
A bills C £100+£17.50 VAT = £117.50
and pays HMCE £17.50 Output tax

C pays A £117.50 and reclaims Input tax £17.50 from HMCE leaving net cost £100.

C bills P(who pays)£117.50+£20.56 VAT=£138.06
C pays HMCE £20.56 (Output tax)
C pays £100 net / receives £117.50 net and therefore retains a net £17.50
P pays £138.06 ie £20.56 too much

In this example the VAT documentation would all be OK, the retained £17.50 would in fact not be VAT, but simply a profit or mark-up.

Hope that all formats OK in wide screen. Note that I used £100 landing fee to keep the maths easy, things aren't that bad yet!

Good luck to you Kirstey, flying is expensive, but worth it (IMHO).

[Julian]

Slipslider, I was actually asked to add VAT to my invoice by one of my clients and I questioned it as previously I had not added VAT to expense claims. I was having a VAT inspection at the time (Not fun!) and brought it up with the VAT inspector. He said that yes it is quite correct that you should add VAT to an expense invoice - I dont follow the reasoning as HMG ends up with two lots of VAT.

Only getting charged 12.5% does sound very dodgy though and you may get some joy by questioning them on why the descrepancy in case they are keeping it.

Julian.

[SlipSlider]

Julian, the 12.5 in Kirstey's note was £12.50 not 12.5% and is £10.64 landing fee + 17.5%

Hopefully last comment as this is a flying forum: yes you should add VAT to your invoice, but should not include the input tax you paid in the net you charge out, if you have reclaimed it. And if you don't reclaim it (for example if you don't have supporting VAT documentation), yes, the VAT man gets the VAT twice.
Regards
SlipSlider

[Sir_Lurkalot]

Julian

Slipsider is right about the VAT stuff (tried to post this yesterday but was let down by network :rolleyes: )

BTW, on the invoice where you were asked to 'add' the VAT, you were actually supposed to 'show' the VAT (ans whatever the VATman you spoke to said, was wrong. Go speak to an accountant - urgently, as you may be skating on thin ice with your VAT)

[SlipSlider]

Kirstey, at that price I reckon your 10 circuits on Saturday cost you £21.90 too much, as well as being hard work I should think! Interested to know the conclusion.
Regards
SlipSlider

[Kirstey]

don't think it's that much. I shall let you know what happens. Incidently, anyone have any recommendations for other Shoreham Clubs/instructors?

cheers

[SimJock]

I suggest you trade up to the Southern Flight Centre at Shoreham where I got my PPL earlier this year. Good instructors, refurbished bar, club outings (last one was to Rouen.. students welcome). I had a bad experience with premiair right at the beginning of training so I'm glad I switched. I had an even worse experience with Billy Pickles but thats another thread.

See you in the bar

:cool:

or look at www.southernflightcentre.com (http://www.southernflightcentre.com)

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: SimJock ]
web page (http://www.southernflightcentre.com)

[ 26 October 2001: Message edited by: SimJock ]

[Julian]

Confirmed it with the local VAT office - it should be added. Good old HMG will get the VAT twice. I think I wouold rather trust them on legal issues rather than accountants.
:D

As i said before try and deal direct with the airfield if you use them alot.

Slipslider - sorry to bore you with VAT but thats what the question was about. :D :D :D

Julian.

[Kirstey]

Thanks for everyone's help

I brought it up on saturday and they said "ooo sorry about that - we set it up on the computer wrong". They said they would sort it and refund the excess VAT. HOWEVER, the rate they charge is advertised on their website, so there is no cock up here, they were trying it on. Leaves a bit of a sour taste so I may well go back to my old club anyway!

Thanks again everyone, maybe my next question on here can be GA related rather than VAT related!

[Ace Rimmer]

Or you could try Sky Leisure reasonable avalibility of A/c and instructors especially when the Redhill mob decamp from the annual conversion of Redhill Aerodrome into a boating lake. And no I don't work there or have any connection apart from transfering large chunks of my disposable income to their coffers!

[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: Ace Rimmer ]