Pilot arrested in EHAM.

[babemagnet]

52 year old Captain from the Us arrested before flight after a tip.

[golfyankeesierra]

According nu.nl | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl (http://www.nu.nl), breathalyzer test showed 105 ug/l (0,23 promille), while max 90 ug/l (0,2 promille) is allowed. Also it is reported the pilot (from an undisclosed US airline) was fined €700 ($1000) which he paid promptly.

[Carbon Bootprint]

Looks like you got it one, KC:


Delta Airlines spokesman Anthony Black said, "Flight #35, Amsterdam to Newark, was cancelled after a crew member appeared to be unfit for duty."
Source article here (http://www.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=154005&catid=40)

[KBPsen]

So now you are drunk with a 0,23 promille? Interesting.

[jammers]

Here we go again....Let's get all the facts lads before we jump to conclusions!

[captplaystation]

Turn the clock back 20 yrs. . . . well OK I won't go there.

0.2? . . 0.23? . . 0.3 ?. . . split duty with 3hrs in the sack? (alone unfortunately :rolleyes: ) self induced fatigue due to commuting? finally how many of us are fit for duty ?personally I need a couple of glasses of wine to stop me bothering about it. ;)

I sincerely hope he walks away with a resolution to score earlier in the evening next time, way to go :ok:

[jackx123]

Didn't know breathalyzer was deciding the level of alcohol in the blood. Usually it's only a blood sample that will do the trick:uhoh:

[AnthonyGA]

Didn't know breathalyzer was deciding the level of alcohol in the blood. Usually it's only a blood sample that will do the trick.

There's a very strong correlation between the level of expired alcohol and the level of alcohol in the blood, enough to provide prima facie evidence of the BAC.

So now you are drunk with a 0,23 promille?

Drunk is a subjective term, but 0.23 is over the limit, and under the influence.

Fortunately, McDonald's doesn't impose a limit, so it shouldn't be a problem for this individual in the future.

[jackx123]

There's a very strong correlation between the level of expired alcohol and the level of alcohol in the blood, enough to provide prima facie evidence of the BAC.

It is not a strong correlation. As a matter of fact if you're on Atkins diet it will increase the reading. The only accurate way of measuring BAC is to take a blood sample. See below links.

Breathalyzer Accuracy - Page 1 (http://www.duicentral.com/evidence/breathalyzer_accuracy.html)

Breathalyzer / Breath-Tester Accuracy Facts & Information (http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/DrivingIssues/1106182337.html)

Breathalyzer Accuracy (http://www.alcoholalert.com/breathalyzer-accuracy.html)

[411A]

Breathalyzer Accuracy

It ain't that good...about as accurate (sometimes) as a recent Florida radar speeding case.
In this instance, the defendant questioned the accuracy of the radar 'gun' so...the judge adjurned the court to the courthouse front lawn, and upon further testing, an oak tree was 'clocked' at 83mph.
Case dismissed, forthwith.

[20driver]

I'm not familiar with the unit promile? What is the equivalent BAC and what is the promile limit for driving in Holland?

Seems odd they'd just fine you and send you on your way. Stranger still if they did not do a blood sample. i suspect we have not heard the complete story.

Thanks
20driver

[Carrier]

Quote: "Drunk is a subjective term, but 0.23 is over the limit,......"

Whose limit and on what basis? The limit for a pilot with an FAA licence is .04% blood alcohol level. The FAA is the world's largest civil aviation agency with an excellent safety record for those under its jurisdiction. If the FAA considers .04% to be an acceptable limit then anything less from a minor league player is not based on safety but on other factors such as raising revenue, harassing foreigners, etc.

[RoyHudd]

Like being fined for speeding at 31 mph in a 30 mph limit. Tecnically over the limit but of no practical significance. ).23 is barely detectable

[bereboot]

@20Driver , street traffic limit is 0,5 promille

[TopBunk]

Whose limit and on what basis? The limit for a pilot with an FAA licence is .04% blood alcohol level. The FAA is the world's largest civil aviation agency with an excellent safety record for those under its jurisdiction. If the FAA considers .04% to be an acceptable limit then anything less from a minor league player is not based on safety but on other factors such as raising revenue, harassing foreigners, etc.

We're the biggest, we're the best, we know it all ......

Do you think that US rules re speeding apply when you're abroad? Do you think you should drive on the right whenin the UK, Australia, Japan, much of Africa? Do you think you should still bear the right to carry arms when abroad?

Probably not, in which case I suggest that you have to agree to adapt to local rules on this as well, and the whole purpose of a law is to define limits of acceptability to society.

OK, so in this case it was very adjacent to the limit, and I feel for the guy, especially if he hadn't been advised of any difference to the US limit by his company, but that probably is reflected in the small fine he received rather than a potentially much larger one.

[doubleu-anker]

I dont know how much this guy had to drink on the layover, maybe nothing.

The fact is if you are on a layover keep away from alcohol, period. I wont touch the stuff inside 48hrs before a flight. In fact I rarely drink at all now.

It is just not worth the risk. It is a safety and a career progression issue. Forget about the bygone days, this is now the reality.

[Payscale]

Bereroot..
What would depend on which country you are in. Dubai is 0,0. Which is impossible. We always have some alcohol in the blood. Eat some bread and take suger with your latte?

[AnthonyGA]

The limit for a pilot with an FAA licence is .04% blood alcohol level.

That's the limit for certificate actions. However, persons performing "safety-sensitive" duties, including piloting, are subject to a limit of 0.02. They must not perform flying duties at 0.02 or above. They won't lose their certificates for 0.021, for example, but they cannot perform flying duties at that level.

Additionally, any evidence of impairment is potentially sufficient for the FAA, even if the blood or expired alcohol level is below 0.04.

[jradam]

Anonymous tip and 0.023? I wonder how much grain aclohol I'd have to dump in your coffee to get you to 0.023? And would you taste it? Orange juice maybe?

[Squawk7777]

I'm not familiar with the unit promile?

A promile is ‰ (like a % but with an extra 0 on the right hand side). If you quote someone in the US of having 0,04 % BAC then it is 0,4 ‰.

Pro - mile (1,000) percent (100).

[golfbananajam]

I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0

Why are you defending the guy? If he was voer the limit then I'm sorry, guilty.

Would you defend a drunk driver in the same way?

Would you ddefend this guy if, just if, he'd had an accident with hundreds of casualties?

While I might not be a profesional pilot I exepct thos upfront not only to have a professional licence but to have a professional attitude

[soullimbo]

Amsterdam is a hot-spot for drunken colleagues so it seems...

I remember that earlier in July 2009 a KLM 777 captain was fired because he drank at least 12 bottles of beer less than 12 hours before a flight to Dar Es Salaam and was caught by KLM security just before take off. They measured a substantial amount of alcohol (0,99 promille). He was subsequently fired by KLM but quite easily managed to turn that around in the Haarlem court of justice. His contract was not very explicit on consequences of such an act and that worked in his favour. The guy is flying again for KLM with a promise he'd never drink alcohol during his years of active duty.....

All in all passengers suffer as they're lives are being being put at risk, so why not make it explicit in the contract. I love a drink but to me these acts are criminal (not to forget sloppy from KLM points-of-view). Only listen to all of us when some dronken bastard caused a drink-drive accident and killed an innocent person. Let's not analyze this too much but simply condemn it.

[Pace]

Would you ddefend this guy if, just if, he'd had an accident with hundreds of casualties?

I doubt .23 would have any effect on his performance its just a number.
So .19 he is OK and quite capable but .23 he is a threat to humanity.

The comparison is the 31mph in a thirty. The guy is safe at 30mph but not at 31 mph.

But there has to be a cutoff point somewhere and its a lesson to us all that the innocent drink or two the night before may have us unknowingly over the limit the next morning.

Is there a cheap self test kit around :E

Pace

[captjns]

Perhaps the airlines could and should shed light on the subject to their crews about each countrys' tolerance as it relates to BAC. Some countries are zero while some are .02.

A good question risen in a previous post... are there testers available to the public to avoid potential problems.

[carbheatout]

Fortunately, McDonald's doesn't impose a limit, so it shouldn't be a problem for this individual in the future.

Do you work in McDonald's when you are not 'playing' on flight simulator?

FWIW the tiredness I’ve experienced conducting certain duties at certain times of the day would possibly be more degrading on my ability to perform a safe operation as opposed to being 0.02 over the limit.

[fireflybob]

I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0

Really? In that case every single pilot would be grounded! The transport limit (in the UK) is one quarter of the driving limit.

[S76Heavy]

Golfbananaham,

0.0% is unenforcable due to normal body processes like digestion that generate tiny amounts of blood alcohol. Hence the 0.02% BAC limit to take this into account. This is effectively a zero tolerance limit; nothing lower makes scientific sense as some teetotalers would be considered repeat offenders due to their metabolism.

I am wondering about the motive of the person that tipped off the police. If the breech is as tiny as this, with someone working on the wrong side of the circadian rythm, to me it does not indicate problematic alcohol consumption in the sense that impairment due to alcohol. I would rate the jet lag to be more of an operational issue.
Sounds like somewone with an axe to grind, either personal or against the company/pilot group whatever.

It is a technical breech of the law, and probably one that could have been prevented with better understanding of how the body deals with alcohol, but compared to some other cases a storm in a teacup. The police cannot not fine the guy as the reading shows him over the limit and every case is a high profile case, but whether this is a prime example of resources put to good use, I seriously doubt.

Bigger fish to fry than this.

[RustyNuts]

It ain't that good...about as accurate (sometimes) as a recent Florida radar speeding case.
In this instance, the defendant questioned the accuracy of the radar 'gun' so...the judge adjurned the court to the courthouse front lawn, and upon further testing, an oak tree was 'clocked' at 83mph.
Case dismissed, forthwith.

I don't know how "recent" this was.....I first heard that story way back in high school, thirty some years ago.

[Patty747400]

Golfbananajam and soullimobo

He was over the limit. Yes. He has made a mistake and will face some consequences for that.

But, and this is important, no accident will happen because the Captain has 0,23 promille.

I can throw in 100 professional pilots of which 50 has the same amount in a simulator and no one would be able to tell who are over the limit.

There are way more dangerous threats to the public than this. However, a pilot who's dead tired and call in sick for that will never be commended for "being professional". He will be frowned upon by his company and ridiculed in the press; "Lazy pilot cause schedule disruptions".

I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.

[flyburg]

Amsterdam is a hot-spot for drunken colleagues so it seems...

I remember that earlier in July 2009 a KLM 777 captain was fired because he drank at least 12 bottles of beer less than 12 hours before a flight to Dar Es Salaam and was caught by KLM security just before take off. They measured a substantial amount of alcohol (0,99 promille). He was subsequently fired by KLM but quite easily managed to turn that around in the Haarlem court of justice. His contract was not very explicit on consequences of such an act and that worked in his favour. The guy is flying again for KLM with a promise he'd never drink alcohol during his years of active duty.....

All in all passengers suffer as they're lives are being being put at risk, so why not make it explicit in the contract. I love a drink but to me these acts are criminal (not to forget sloppy from KLM points-of-view). Only listen to all of us when some dronken bastard caused a drink-drive accident and killed an innocent person. Let's not analyze this too much but simply condemn it.

Wow, how extremely off topic, moodmaking and inaccurate!!

I don't know why I bother but I feel un overwhelming urge to respond to that nonsense post. he topic is about a Delta guy but you make it into a KLM deal :ugh:

First, if you do a search you'll see a lot of these incidents. LHR springs to mind in the not to recent past (united and NW I believe) and just last month a UPS guy got caught at WAW. So these incidents are not limited to AMS.

Second, the guy at KLM. KLM has very clear language in their CAO (CLA) however they still have to comply with labour law. In this particular incident you mention the guy was indeed able to overturn his firing(I don't know on which grounds). However KLM offered him a substantial cash amount to leave on his own account, which he took.

If you have such an insight perspective, you should also mention that KLPD had a random alcohol test just last month and off all the guys checked none were found to be intoxicated. Also, when it comes to KLM's "sloppy policy" mention the MAD ( medicine, alcohol and drugs) campagn.

I guess it's more fun though to come on this board and generalize and pretend you know something others don't and blast an airline which you obviously have an axe to grind with!!

Being intoxicated while flying is flat out wrong, however, we as pilots are a mirror image of society. There will always be guys that have a problem but also guys that have a case of bad judgement! we are just humans after all!

In almost all cases the pilots involved are fired, try and mirror that on society!

Btw thanks for the moderator into making this a real quote, uhh how do I do this myself??

[skytrax]

Why are you guys defending the guy?
Were you in the same situation and feel sorry for him? Im sorry, but if you
worked hard enough to become an airline pilot you have to be smart enough to stay away from alcohol 12 hrs before your report time and keep it safe.
You cant? too bad, you shouldnt be flying.
if it's chronical, than you should seek profesional help.

0.23 is already too much. In Dubai, we have zero for both flying and driving and I dont see any problem. Ive been random tested a few times along the years and it was always zero, although I had drinks the night before but stopped 12 hrs before my report time.
Every individual's metabolism is diffrent so for some of us 8 or 10 hours is enough to get ridd of the booze from your system. In my company they made it 12 hrs (which is belived to be enough for most of us) to be on the safe side.

[flyburg]

And strangely enough, when I type dubai, pilot and drunk in google I get several hits :ugh:

I won't post them..you get the idea

[AnthonyGA]

FWIW the tiredness I’ve experienced conducting certain duties at certain times of the day would possibly be more degrading on my ability to perform a safe operation as opposed to being 0.02 over the limit.

No doubt, if the fatigue is great enough, but two wrongs do not make a right. Worse yet, if you have any alcohol at all in your system AND you are tired, you should not be flying at all, as the combination of the two is deadly.

0.0% is unenforcable due to normal body processes like digestion that generate tiny amounts of blood alcohol. Hence the 0.02% BAC limit to take this into account.

The levels of endogenous alcohol produced by internal body processes are about a hundred times lower than the levels produced by drinking alcohol. The 0.02 limit is mostly a reflection of limitations in the equipment in terms of minimum thresholds and overall accuracy. It is not an allowance for endogenous alcohol, the levels of which are far too low to be a factor in this type of measurement.

Nor does the 0.02 limit mean that anything below it is safe or free of impairing effects.

I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.

The interactions may not be easy to understand, although they are similar to the concerns of anyone who feels that his job is in jeopardy. However, the facts of the effects of alcohol are easily understandable to anyone who has studied them, whether he is a pilot or not. And the effects of alcohol on any intellectual or physical activity are also very easy to study and understand, and there's nothing magic about flying that sets it apart from other such activities in this respect.

I'm reminded of the experiment I saw in which an airline pilot with tens of thousands of hours was blindfolded during a flight while another pilot put the aircraft through a few simple, harmless maneuvers. The airline pilot was then asked to describe the movements of the airplane. Of course, he was completely wrong—sensations cannot be trusted in flight. But he seemed very surprised by that. It's important to understand that even if a pilot has a million hours of experience, the effects of things like alcohol, fatigue, disorientation, etc. do not change, because the human body does not change. No matter how much a pilot might want to believe that the last beer he had has no effect on his flying, it may still have an effect.

Each time this subject comes up, the tone of the discussion gives the very, very strong impression that pilots are more interested in being free to drink than they are in the safety consequences of drinking. I'm sure journalists visiting the forum get the same impression. I hope it's an incorrect impression.

I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring. The preoccupation seems to be with preventing pilots from reaping the consequences of their alcohol consumption, rather than with preventing impaired pilots from flying.

The only safe level of alcohol in the blood is zero. Anyone who doesn't believe that may one day be in for a very big and unpleasant surprise, and no amount of heated argument to the contrary here can change that.

[A and C]

Quote from above.

The only safe level of alcohol in the blood is zero. Anyone who doesn't believe that may one day be in for a very big and unpleasant surprise, and no amount of heated argument to the contrary here can change that.

All very good but please tell me why someone who has never had a drink in their life should be jailed for the small amounts of alcohol that the body produces during the digestion of food.

The limit is set at the level it is to take account of this, so rather than coming out with this zero limit rubbish please try to understand the subject because the fact is the limit in practice is as close to zero as to make no difference.

[KBPsen]

It seems every time this subject comes up AnthonyGA jumps on his hobby horse and rides in for another battle against the evil alcohol.

I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring.

Nothing like placing someone on a pedestal just so they can be knocked off it again.

And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.

[troff]

Quote:
I've always idealistically hoped that pilots would be among those professionals who understand the risks of substance abuse and totally avoid such abuse in consequence, but the discussions I see here are not reassuring.


It happens elsewhere.

Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.

Now look at pilots: The very nature of the job makes many of us easy targets to become binge drinkers. Exhausting schedules, long duties, short layovers, night turns, working more nights a month than the moon, ULR rest in the "coffins", cranky wives at home (pretty, comparitively happy crew looking for a party when away)... It all adds up.

Now look at the UAE: Its a ZERO blood alcohol limit to drive your car, however you can climb in a cockpit with 400+ people in the back with a .020 blood alcohol level.

That means you're illegal to drive yourself to work, but legal for the flight to JFK... go figure. :ugh:

T

[Scrubby]

according to the dutch papers it would seem that soullimbo has got his facts right. really an amazing feat isn't it. party all night, show up drunk for work and then receive a very generous sum for doing so! whats your problem flyburg? sounds like a common case of wooden shoes, wooden heads, wooden listen to me!

[Slickster]

if you have any alcohol at all in your system AND you are tired, you should not be flying at all, as the combination of the two is deadly.


Really? Could you site me some examples of air crashes, involving boozed up pilots?

And the effects of alcohol on any intellectual or physical activity are also very easy to study and understand, and there's nothing magic about flying that sets it apart from other such activities in this respect.


There is indeed something "magic" about flying (in many respects). Every time a pilot is breathalysed, and even if he turns out to be completely innocent, it is "Drunk Pilot" in the Tabloids all round, and the usual bunch of sanctimonious prudes float to the surface here. How many other professions get that? When was the last time a surgeon was breathalysed?

I wonder how many other people, if breathalysed at the start of their work day would be ridiculously past the limit airline pilots are required to meet, and 99.9% do, due to a few too many glasses of vino the night before. Some of them, shock horror, might even have safety critical responsibilities.

I just love the modern, political-correct way, that when anyone dares to voice mitigating circumstances, or try to add some balance to the outrage from the holier-than-though brigade, they are accused of "defending drunk pilots" etc. No one has ever defended drunk pilots. I've never even seen or heard of a drunk pilot on duty. That's drunk BTW, not blowing to some arbritrary limit, but effectively zero, imposed by a state.

Rules are rules, fair enough, but let's keep things in perspective.

[sec 3]

Hey slick, site me a commercial airline crash that was caused by a drunken pilot:confused:

[Flying Lawyer]

AnthonyGA Each time this subject comes up, the tone of the discussion gives the very, very strong impression that pilots are more interested in being free to drink than they are in the safety consequences of drinking. I'm sure journalists visiting the forum get the same impression. I hope it's an incorrect impression.
I've read every post in every thread on this topic since December 2003 - http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/113035-alcohol-flying-new-law.html - and totally disagree.
There have, I concede, been some idiotic comments along the lines you mention - just as each thread attracts idiotic assertions that a pilot proved to be over the legal limit by even a tiny amount was 'drunk'. However, the overwhelming majority of professional pilots have adopted a responsible and professional approach when the issue has been discussed - in stark contrast to the ill-informed and absurdly melodramatic comments far too often expressed by others who let their vivid imaginations run riot.

golfbananajam I seem to remember from my airlaw studies (albeit they were a while ago) that the CAA limit is 0
Then either you have a poor memory or you weren't very good at your air law studies.
The UK legal limit is not, and never has been, zero.
"albeit they were a while ago"
When was that? :confused:
Until the 30th March 2004, the UK did not have a legal limit.
Before that, the UK law was that no member of an aircraft’s crew (or LAME or ATC officer) shall be under the influence of drink or drugs to such an extent as to impair his/her capacity to so act.


.

[flyburg]

sec 3,

Read the above post again. I think you and him are in agreement

[Capi_Cafre']

And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.

Interference with ones occupation it is one of the defining characteristics of alcolhol abuse. The possible physiological effects of this guy's level of intoxication are no more relevant to the discussion than are the possible motives of the individual who turned him in.
Is there a cheap self test kit around http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
A reasonably accurate breathalyzer can be purchased for roughly $100 U.S. It's not going to save your butt in court but will give you useful information with regard to your BAC after a pint or three.

[captjns]

Can't wait for the Northwesties who rallied the guys who flew past MSP to come to the defense of this gent:E.

Afterall... rules is rules.

[EXLEFTSEAT]

I made a deal with the devil. I would not drink alcohol until I retire and please let me live a lot of extra years with my wonderful wife. I and the devil kept his promise and it has worked for me. I met her when I was a lucky kid, thanks to PANAM , working a PANAM 727 and she was an NH F/A dead-heading. Funny, I remember correctly, TAB was the only "diet" drink at that time. There is no excuse for any alcohol level in your blood, cough syrup, what can you think of. Just no excuse!!!

[FoxHunter]

Hey slick, site me a commercial airline crash that was caused by a drunken pilot

ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas DC-8-62AF JA8054 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19770113-0)

[Capt Pit Bull]

I'm reminded of the experiment I saw in which an airline pilot with tens of thousands of hours was blindfolded during a flight while another pilot put the aircraft through a few simple, harmless maneuvers. The airline pilot was then asked to describe the movements of the airplane. Of course, he was completely wrong—sensations cannot be trusted in flight. But he seemed very surprised by that.

I call BS, given that this demo is carried out as part of basic IF training. It makes as much sense as saying that a professional pilot would be surprised that the control column could be used to control attitude.

Either you aren't remembering it correctly, or the program makers were being disingenuous, or the 'pilot' was deliberately being misleading, or in fact had at most a few hours flying experience. Either way its crap.

pb

[Whiskey Papa]

@ sec 3

Hey slick, site me a commercial airline crash that was caused by a drunken pilot

Perm, Russia, 2008 - B735 killed 88 people - pilot error, spatial disorientation.

"Forensic examination found alcohol in the captain's tissue corresponding to a blood alcohol level above 0.052 percent. He also did not have adequate rest before the flight." Wikipedia

WP

[vanHorck]

those trying to defend a pilot over the limit here are just like alcoholics themselves.

Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem

So the solution is simple:
All those trying to defend pilots over the limit on PPRUNE should report every morning for a breathalyzer test prior to the first flight of the day. Problem solved... :ok:

[Bruce Wayne]

those trying to defend a pilot over the limit here are just like alcoholics themselves.

Those are the people who obviously deny they have a drinking problem



I disagree with that statement.

As a non-drinker, there has to be a reasonable consideration of facts and physiology to determine the situation and the circumstances.

lets look at this for example:


How Long Does Alcohol Stay in the Body?

David J. Hanson, Ph.D.

After alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream it leaves the body in two ways. A total of about ten percent leaves through the breath, perspiration, and urine. The remainder is broken down through the process known as metabolism.

The rate at which alcohol is metabolized is the same for virtually everyone regardless of their height, weight, sex, race or other such characteristics.
Alcohol is metabolized at the rate of .015 of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) every hour. Thus a person with a very high BAC of .15 will have no measurable alcohol in the bloodstream after ten hours (.15 divided by .015 = 10).



So with a BAC of 0.023, that level of alcohol would have metabolized in 1.3 hours.

Many foods, and over the counter remedies have alcohol in the content. And as we have seen already a zero level is not attainable due to the human physiology, hence the 0.2 promile limit (being effectively zero [sic]).

So subject to diet, individual physiology etc. the effective limit could quite literally be 'busted' without knowledge or symptomatic evidence.

Now going back to the level of BAC dissipation in the body of 0.023 being metabolized completely in some 1.3 hours, he could well have been over the limit by a Crepe Suzette, or some O.T.C. cough mixture.

The reality is, that could be a career wrecker, without any knowledge or effect being manifested.

It's quite different from a pilot staggering up for duty an unshaven wreck smelling like he's been marinated in Ricard.



All those trying to defend pilots over the limit on PPRuNe should report every morning for a breathalyzer test prior to the first flight of the day. Problem solved... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Personally I wouldnt have a problem with that as i dont drink.

However, I would have a problem with it if the results showed me (or you) being over a 'given' level with the net results of a destroyed career, for actually not having consumed a level of alcohol that could impair performance or functional capability.

Meanwhile, people who don't know me nor have ever met me attest on a forum somewhere that I am drunk and should be thrown to the wolves and 'serves me right'.

[Charly]

0.03 promille over the limit??

Considering that a grown male's alcohol-degradation is at a rate of 0.15 promille per hour (corresponding to about 0.25 ltrs of beer), the guy would have been safe 12 minutes later...

[jackx123]

So what. The guy had the wrong combination of food and accidentally was B'd showing up DUI according to local law (dutch). As any airman of the FAR/AIM compliant system he knew the R&R and said fine I'll pay the fine knowing the consequences would not impact his FAA privileges :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Bruce Wayne]

indeed, however, if he had shown 15 mins later, he would have been under the limit and 'no harm, no foul'.

yet you still have to consider the rate at which the body metabolizes the BAC and 15 mins of dissipation time is the difference between a non-even and a career wrecker.

As any airman of the FAR/AIM compliant system he knew the R&R and said fine I'll pay the fine knowing the consequences would not impact his FAA privileges

which indeed I am. however, you then have to consider the aspect of that.

if it is a safety issue, then cough up 700 bucks and continue on your merry way and no violation doesn't correlate.

if it is a safety issue and there is intrinsic faith in the levels set, then the BAC 'bust' should involve further actions, not pay up and fugheddaboudit.

go figure !

[deSitter]

Is there a cheap self test kit around http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

"Good news - you're not drunk - you're pregnant!"

-drl

[avionimc]

what if the pilot had just gargled with "Listerine" or "Scope" in the rest rooms on the way to the gate in order to have a fresh breath? How much would the reading show?

[AnthonyGA]

USA Today's Today in the Sky had a brief article about a "debate" occurring on alcohol limits for pilots, although the article never really explains where this alleged debate is occurring, or what exactly is being debated about alcohol limits:

Pilots' alcohol limits debated - USATODAY.com (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-09-16-drunkpilots16rw_ST_N.htm)

[winkle]

I think fatigue is actually more of an issue, I know from personal experience it is far worse than you can imagine. But of course you cant breathalyse fatigue.:(

[stepwilk]

"Forensic examination found alcohol in the captain's tissue corresponding to a blood alcohol level above 0.052 percent."

As soon as you die and decomposition sets in, one byproduct is alcohol. So I wonder if it's even possible to determine whether alcohol in a body has come from drinking or decomposition.

[AnthonyGA]

A few points to address:

All very good but please tell me why someone who has never had a drink in their life should be jailed for the small amounts of alcohol that the body produces during the digestion of food.

That never happens to people in normal health. As I've repeatedly explained, endogenous alcohol levels are so low—100 to 1000 times lower than levels reached by drinking alcohol—that they are hard to even measure. They do not put anyone over legal limits.

In cases where endogenous alcohol levels are high enough to look like levels achieved by drinking, there's always some sort of significant abnormality or pathology involved, such as resections of the GI tract or pH abnormalities of the gut, combined with specific diets. Normal people do not produce measurable quantities of alcohol within their bodies.

And even if someone does produce significant alcohol internally, a BAC of 0.02 reached from intoxication with endogenous alcohol has exactly the same physiological effects as the same level achieved by drinking, So a pilot who is pulled aside for this level is unfit to fly, whether he got that way by drinking or through some abnormal condition that produced vast amounts of endogenous alcohol. Either way, unless he can bring that level down, his flying duty has ended. Above 0.04, he may be able to avoid certificate action if he can demonstrate that he did not achieve that level by drinking, but he's still grounded and medically unfit to fly.

Overall, endogenous alcohol is too rarely a cause of intoxication to be significant, even though numerous DUI lawyers hold this out as a sort of carrot to clients, implying that it can be successfully used as a defense (but it can't, unless it actually happened and that can be proved).

And where did substance abuse suddenly come from? Is blowing 0.23 now a sign of substance abuse? Am I right in suspecting, AnthonyGA, that you consider even a single glass substance abuse.

No, you're not right. How much you consume is irrelevant. What's relevant is how much alcohol you have in your blood when you engage in activities that can affect the safety of others or their property.

Substance abuse is abuse of a recreational or other drug in situations where it is inappropriate. Blowing 0.23 is fine when you're at home, or at a bar, or at a wedding, or whatever. But it's abuse if you blow it before entering the flight deck. Alcohol intoxication is unacceptable on the flight deck, and if you are intoxicated there, you're engaging in substance abuse.

It happens elsewhere.

Ever seen "Nurse Jackie"? A classic scenario of a health care professional on the edge... Who knows what the good doctor has in HIS bloodstream as he is trying to patch you up.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact that some health-care professionals may be intoxicated (and unfortunately it is a significant problem) doesn't mean that it's okay for pilots to be intoxicated, too. Instead, it's wrong for the doctors and nurses to be intoxicated, and they should be treated exactly as pilots are if they are found to be intoxicated while performing safety-related duties.

As it happens, pilots are in one of the most heavily regulated professions around, more regulated even than doctors and lawyers. But that doesn't mean that the standards for alcohol should be relaxed. Rather, they should be tightened for other professions affecting public safety.

There is indeed something "magic" about flying (in many respects). Every time a pilot is breathalysed, and even if he turns out to be completely innocent, it is "Drunk Pilot" in the Tabloids all round, and the usual bunch of sanctimonious prudes float to the surface here. How many other professions get that?

All of them, when a professional is caught intoxicated. It's just that most professions don't test for intoxication as diligently as the aviation industry—unfortunately. But a drunk train driver caught in that state gets a lot of press, too, if an accident occurs or if he is caught under circumstances that catch public attention.

In any case, talking about a drunk pilot in the tabloids is no big deal, provided that cooler heads prevail. If he really is drunk, it's time for a career change, and if he's not, he can simply continue flying. His fifteen minutes of fame will be over very quickly, and then he will be forgotten.

I wonder how many other people, if breathalysed at the start of their work day would be ridiculously past the limit airline pilots are required to meet, and 99.9% do, due to a few too many glasses of vino the night before.

In the United States, the great majority of those tested would be clean, with zero alcohol in their blood. And more than a few companies will fire employees who show up intoxicated, if they find out about it. Nearly half the U.S. population doesn't drink at all. However, the U.S. is unusually abstinent among developed countries. In France or the U.K., the number of people who don't drink at all is very low. Still, most of them would blow clean if tested upon arrival at work. Even in France, where about 16% of the population suffers from some degree of alcohol addiction, most people still arrive at work with no alcohol on board (although there are always a few who fairly reek of ethanol even at 7 AM—something that doesn't seem to bother French employers).

[Chronus]

hey fox hunter and slick mate site me an accident or two or three or as many as you may have time for that was caused by a sober pilot.

[heavy.airbourne]

A lot of blabla about blood alcohol levels while every professional in this industry knows the real problem is fatigue, which after a still legal schedule induces effects amounting to 8 times the amount of alcohol we are talking about here. Pilot bashing for 0.0023 s.th. in an industry that drives many people to beyond their limits (even psychological) will not raise safety in any aspect.:ugh:

[KKoran]

What is your reference for the .02 limit? As far as I know, US regulations only address the .04 limit.
§ 91.17 - Alcohol or drugs.

(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft --

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.
§ 120.37 Misuse of alcohol.

(a) General. This section applies to covered employees who perform a function listed in subpart F of this part for a certificate holder. For the purpose of this section, an individual who meets the definition of covered employee in subpart F of this part is considered to be performing the function for the certificate holder.

(b) Alcohol concentration. No covered employee shall report for duty or remain on duty requiring the performance of safety-sensitive functions while having an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater. No certificate holder having actual knowledge that an employee has an alcohol concentration of 0.04 or greater shall permit the employee to perform or continue to perform safety-sensitive functions.

[AnthonyGA]

What is your reference for the .02 limit? As far as I know, US regulations only address the .04 limit.

Look at (for example) 14 CFR § 120.217 (d)(4)(ii)(A):

(ii) Notwithstanding the absence of a reasonable suspicion alcohol test under this section, no covered employee shall report for duty or remain on duty requiring the performance of safety-sensitive functions while the employee is under the influence of, or impaired by, alcohol, as shown by the behavioral, speech, or performance indicators of alcohol misuse, nor shall an employer permit the covered employee to perform or continue to perform safety-sensitive functions until:

(A) An alcohol test is administered and the employee's alcohol concentration measures less than 0.02 …

In other words, a pilot can be immediately removed from flying status if he has a BAC of 0.02 or more. He hasn't necessarily violated the FARs unless he has reached 0.04, but if he is above 0.02, his employer is obligated to relieve him and keep him off flying status until his BAC drops below 0.02, or until eight hours have elapsed.

Since being unable to fly costs the airline a fortune, it is perfectly justified in adopting a formal policy of imposing sanctions on pilots who are found to be at 0.02 or above, irrespective of impairment or FAR violations.

Note also that the text mentions impairment. If a pilot is found to be impaired, he must also be relieved of flying duties, even if his BAC is below 0.02.

[AN2 Driver]

Why is it so difficult? Anyone working in Aviation should know that he has to choose between the booze and his job. Period. Everyone knows it, still many think that one glass can't hurt... WRONG. 8 hours is the "limit" but that won't keep anyone safe. 24 hours is it for me ever since I started driving. Meaning that I usually have a few drinks during my holidays, if I stay someplace where I don't touch a car, let alone an airplane.

Anthony G is right, there is no excuse. Everyone knows it and far too many people are bs'ing themselfs into believing that they can dodge the system. In the end, they only cheat themselfs.

[jackx123]

Try Aeroflot :}

[fiftypercentn1]

AN2 Driver why am I not surprised your location is ZRH??:E

[DownIn3Green]

AnthonyGA...I guess the GA really gives you up...the .02 is normally the limit most Airlines go by in their Ops Manuals...been beaten to death on the Prune...

[FlyingCroc]

Why not having a 0% then the problem would be clear. This chap really had bad luck being .oo3 above the limit, so small it cannot even be measured with a breathalyzer (the tolerance is about 15%). Its just like in the car, 0.5% in Europe, however this does not really say anything about your ability to drive. Let's say you blow 0.053% and your drivers license is gone.

Another strange thing. Why is it that always those American pilots from Legacy carriers get caught? Aren't there even more flights on all the lowcosts, never heard any of those getting caught. I don't think that the Yanks are the bigger boozers than the Brits. :E

[sec 3]

I think local airport personnel would be less likely to report local crews as opposed to foreign crews. There should be some sort of penalization if someone reports a crewmember who in the end turns out to have been falsely accused.

[boredcounter]

'There should be some sort of penalization if someone reports a crewmember who in the end turns out to have been falsely accused.'

It seems to be a case of finding the happy medium here. Your suggestion goes against the whole aviation ethos of telling someone if you think something is wrong.

I would suggest it is akin it to the sacking of any driver who strikes an aircraft on the ground, drivers stop saying 'I think I might of'.

That said, the jobsworths do need to understand, the smell of booze or the suspicion of drinking is not there to be used as revenge after crossed words at Security, Duty Free etc etc.

Bored

[sec 3]

Thinking there's something wrong and knowing there's something wrong are two totally different things.

[boredcounter]

Or the Bellhop, Hotel Receptionist, Barman, Manager or Waitress, Chambermaid, Taxi Driver will also have one up on you if you p#ss him/her off. They will all know your flight number......................... It happens mate.

[Neptunus Rex]

Flying Croc

Loco pilots have a drink problem...

They can't afford it!

[soullimbo]

Patty747400
I understand that it's not easy for a non pilot to understand these matters. That's why professional pilots many times "defend" a pilot in a situation like this.


Granted, mines not a big shiny747400 like yours, but a FR 737 where we work really hard. Maybe one day I will be a real pilot like you.

"according to the dutch papers it would seem that soullimbo has got his facts right. really an amazing feat isn't it. party all night, show up drunk for work and then receive a very generous sum for doing so! whats your problem flyburg? sounds like a common case of wooden shoes, wooden heads, wooden listen to me!"

Flyburg
Like scrubby, didn't understand your point either.. Let me try to put my point across with respect to these endless discussions on whether we're allowed to deviate from doing the right thing when it comes to our profession (and endless these discussions will be). If I ever end up having having twelve pints the night before my next flight, I would consider myself a sad individual who's better of spending the rest of his life in the 'cafe op de hoek' rather than trying to fly innocent passengers anywhere. Your 777 captain/colleauge should be ashamed for even going to court with a sour excuse of not drinking his working life again. It's the same as saying I will never look at another women's ass again after you have cheated your whole career on your wife. Frikkin' B&*s*tt.
What's the point in defending these people that put other peoples lives at risk? Out. Go away. Bugger off. Preferably with a good hard kick up the arse. Go find a job somewhere else, preferebly one without responsibility for other people's lives. And if you have a problem. Deal with it before it is too late.

[411A]

A lot of blabla about blood alcohol levels while every professional in this industry knows the real problem is fatigue, which after a still legal schedule induces effects amounting to 8 times the amount of alcohol we are talking about here.
What absolute rubbish.:eek:

[Flying Lawyer]

soullimbo
Congratulations on finding your first flying job. :ok: I'm pleased for you, especially after reading not long ago that you had given up hope of ever finding a job and had abandoned your ambition to become a professional pilot.

I'm surprised you didn't understand Flyburg's post. You made a gratuitously provocative post which contained a number of allegations concerning KLM (post #24) and Flyburg corrected you (post #32). His response was very clear.

He also appeared to be suggesting that you have a chip on your shoulder about KLM. You may deny that, but it's certainly an impression I've gained from your various references to KLM in previous posts in other threads.
I can, of course, understand that you would like to have got a position with your national carrier but, for whatever reason, that wasn't to be. Now that you've found a job with Ryanair perhaps it's time to put previous disappointments behind you and concentrate on making a success of what you've got.
You might also want to guard against replacing one chip with another:Granted, mines not a big shiny747400 like yours, but a FR 737 where we work really hard. Maybe one day I will be a real pilot like you.

[longisland]

<< As soon as you die and decomposition sets in, one byproduct is alcohol. So I wonder if it's even possible to determine whether alcohol in a body has come from drinking or decomposition. >>

Apparently it is possible.

On December 17, 1977, United Airlines cargo flight 2860 (DC-8F) flew from San Francisco, California to Salt Lake City, Utah (KSLC). Approaching KSLC they experienced electrical problems, were given holding instructions at their request and crashed into some local area mountains. It took some time (several days?) before rescuers reached the site.

Alcohol was found in the S/O's (flight engineer) remains and it looked rather bad. Some time later it was determined that the alcohol was from decomposition.

[777fly]

Looking through this thread I find that a pilot was breathalysed and found to be microscopically over the JAR limit.
I would be interested to know if there was a standard check in EHAM, at the report point, to check alcohol levels of flight crew passing through. I have never been subjected to such a check at any European departure point, as foreign operator crew.This only ever happened at my point of departure from home base, otherwise it was reliance on self regulation.
There is some suggestion that the pilot, subject of this thread, was reported by a third party. I would believe that anyone with a blood alcohol level up to 0.04 would appear, in all respects, to be perfectly competent and sober to any observer. That would include behaviour, response, smell, etc. I suspect an ulterior motive at work here and feel sorry for the pilot implicated.
In my country there is a tolerance level for speeding offences in a vehicle. If the limit is 30, there is a tolerance to 33, a 'warning' to 36 and a fine above that. A plus or minus tolerance on any limit is a practical thing and a complete cut-off above that ( lets say 36 for speeding and 0.04 for alcohol) entirely sensible.
No-one at 0.02 - 0.04 is 'drunk' by any standard, but any violation of the 0.02 limit ensures, in the eyes of the voracious Press, that you are a 'drunk pilot'

[golfyankeesierra]

777fly,
What should Police do when someone is reported to have been drinking? Just let him fly?
He was also found to be above the limit, period.
But he is not treated as a drunk pilot by the authorities; he is "only" fined, and not arrested and prosecuted for endangering lives as would be expected for a really drunk pilot.

I think you could consider the fine a warning. The most he will worry about is how his company will act.

I would be interested to know if there was a standard check in EHAM
Checks are random and rare, but there was one a few weeks ago at the crewcenter for home- and foreign pilots alike (result: no offenders).

[MarkerInbound]

Why not having a 0% then the problem would be clear. This chap really had bad luck being .oo3 above the limit, so small it cannot even be measured with a breathalyzer (the tolerance is about 15%).

So how do you think they caught him? Many breathalyzers will give read outs to .000. I know the Drager we used 15 years ago did. And as it's been pointed out, many people are running around at .002 or .003 without ever drinking.

As to if the pilot had used mouthwash, the US testing protocols require if there is a positive test, the test is repeated in 15 minutes for the record. Meanwhile the unit is checked. The idea is if the positive test value was caused by the use of mouthwash, the alcohol will be exhausted in 15 minutes however if the alcohol is in the bloodstream it will continue to be exhaled. I have no idea how the Dutch do their testing.

[Beta Light]

A neighbor back home, who is in law enforcement breathalyze himself while being bored on duty. He was shocked to discover he was over the limit. The only alcohol that was close to his lips the preceding 48 hours was a big dose of mouth wash. Can the alcohol in mouth wash show up in a breathalyzer?
The mouth wash was used 30 minutes before he conducted the test on himself.

[AnthonyGA]

Operators and authorities are stuck between a rock and a hard place with respect to pilots who drink alcohol.

If an authority/operator sets zero tolerance—no detectable alcohol at all—some pilots who drink will object that it's possible to have some alcohol in one's blood and still be effectively unimpaired. That is inevitably true: There will always be some extremely low threshold of BAC below which no real impairment occurs. This can be used as an argument to undermine the zero-tolerance policy.

But if the authority/operator sets a specific BAC limit, pilots who drink will argue that it's arbitrary and that one can be above it and unimpaired, or below it and impaired. That's also true, and once again this is a wedge that can be used to undermine specific BAC limits.

And if the authority/operator simply specifies impairment as the criterion, then pilots who drink will argue that it's highly subjective and difficult to measure, which is correct.

In other words, no matter what aviation authorities and airlines do, it will never make drinking pilots happy. These pilots want to drink with impunity, with their own judgment being the only criterion for determining their fitness to fly (even though judgment is the first thing to go when you drink, and having a desire to drink will affect judgment even when sober). If there's a zero-tolerance policy, these pilots will try to ease towards whatever the lower limit of measurement is. If there's a specific BAC limit, they'll try to get as close as they can to the limit without going over it. If the only criterion is impairment, they'll apply a very liberal notion of impairment to their work that allows the drinking they wish to undertake. It's a losing situation no matter how one looks at it, because the ultimate goal is to be able to drink freely and yet still fly.

Some pilots who drink, of course, will go to great lengths to make sure they are completely clean when flying. Not drinking for 48-72 hours, or simply not drinking at all during times when one might have to fly, are examples of the personal policies that these pilots might adopt. They don't raise any concerns for safety.

Likewise, pilots who choose not to drink at all can rest easy. They'll never have trouble because of alcohol abuse.

But there does seem to be a minority of pilots who insist on pushing the envelope. The fact that they are prepared to risk their jobs and their entire careers just to be able to drink a bit more or a bit longer implies that they may have trouble dealing with their own use of alcohol, which in itself is a serious concern, both on the flight deck and in private life. It's the first step towards alcoholism.

Just make sure you're at zero when you fly. It's not hard to do at all. If you cannot resist drinking in a way that might put you above zero when you step onto the flight deck, think long and hard about your drinking habits … because you may have a problem.

[Stitch]

I like the word impaired, basically because it doesn't really mean anything. People can be impaired for many reasons. I'm sure we've all driven in cars behind either old folks or new drivers, who may well be impaired due to age or lack of ability. Would an experienced driver of middle age be more impaired with a pint or two compared to a new driver who has never driven down a certain city centre route? Surely the driver who has had a drink would be more impaired than had he not had a drink if we were to compare himself to himself, however, it's never that easy. I have flown with pilots who have been more detrimental to the operation just by being on the flight deck, let alone if they had had a pint or two. I suppose our operation was impaired.
In no way do I condone drinking prior to flying. It will always be wrong. You will indeed be impaired, compared to your own previous ability. However, an arbitrary alcohol reading will not be a simple judgement of impairment. Lack of sleep is a huge impairment. How do you compare a junior pilot with only a few hours of sleep compared to a senior Captain with two glasses of wine under his belt 8 hours before sign on? Food for thought. Or maybe not.

[MarkerInbound]

Anthony,

It's not just pilots that drink that object to a zero tolerance policy. Alcohol is a natural by product of your body digesting sugar. Glucose is turned into ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. You do not have to drink alcohol to have a measurable amount of alcohol in your blood.

Years ago the HR Director at the company I worked for wanted to start a zero tolerance, one strike and you're out alcohol policy. My union position was somewhat related to that topic so I was at the meeting. I pointed out that US law did not allow holding one group of employees to a higher standard than the US DoT in the name of safety and the policy would have to apply to all employees. She was fine with that. I then explained the rationale behind the DoT .02/.04 and pointed out that anyone in the group that had eaten a couple of the glazed donuts on the table could have a measurable amount of alcohol in their blood and would be fired under this policy. We stayed with the DoT standards.

As you say, these are somewhat arbitrary numbers. Anyone with a blood alcohol content in the hundredths of a percent either just had a drink or had a really wild time a while ago. But calling for zero alcohol in the blood when we can measure to the thousandths and tens of thousandths of a percent flys in the face of reality.

[sunbird123]

people google< Interesting Flight by Les Strouse> for a look at the old days.

[AnthonyGA]

It's not just pilots that drink that object to a zero tolerance policy. Alcohol is a natural by product of your body digesting sugar. Glucose is turned into ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. You do not have to drink alcohol to have a measurable amount of alcohol in your blood.I've explained several times that endogenous ethanol is not a factor. People in normal health do not produce endogenous ethanol in significant quantities. Glucose is not turned into ethanol by normal metabolism. Microorganisms in the gut can ferment glucose and other carbohydrates, producing ethanol, but the amounts concerned are too low to detect, and certainly too low to produce any intoxication.

Urban legends have developed concerning endogenous ethanol and many DUI Web sites and others with an interest in propagating the myths have made it difficult to eradicate these legends. It sounds like you've fallen prey to them.

Here's the reality: The limit for performing safety-sensitive aviation activities in the U.S. is 0.02 grams of ethanol per deciliter of blood. The upper extreme of endogenous ethanol in the blood in healthy individuals is 0.00008 g/dl, roughly 250 times less than the limit. Normal blood tests will not show this endogenous ethanol. In fact, gas chromatography is usually required to detect it.

The only documented cases of significant EE levels have been in a very small number of primarily Japanese individuals who had a combination of (1) genetically impaired aldehyde dehydrogenase activity (about 50% of Japanese have this mutation, but it is rare in other ethnic groups), (2) a yeast infection in the gut, (3) a diet very high in carbohydrates (e.g., rice), and (4) anomalies in the GI tract produced by surgical resection of the gut (which may have been the source of the yeast infections) or abnormal gut pH. I daresay there are very few pilots who satisfy all these criteria.

If EE were truly a factor, then everyone would always test positive for alcohol to some degree. In fact, people who have not been drinking will test zero within the limits of measurement (with the tests typically used for this purpose—I presume that most employers and aviation authorities are not using gas chromatography).

So did you bring donuts to the meeting, have everyone eat a few, and test their blood ethanol levels before and after?

[CaptainSquelch]

OK guys you want to know how the test is done at EHAM.

I was subjected to the test in the crew centre a few weeks ago. I entered the crew centre on Monday, July 19th at around 12:30 local time and did not notice anything special. Only after I reported for duty at one of the computer terminals on the left, a guy in police uniform approached me from behind a column. He identified himself as "Luchtvaartpolitie", let's say: aviation cop, and invited me politely to follow him to a small room.
There was one male flight attendant being examined so I had to wait a few seconds. After he was ready a clean mouth piece was fitted to the breathaliser and it was my turn. Reading 0.06 promille, no problem, exit while the next person entered. Not more than two minutes delay. The rest of the reporting process, like dumping my baggage, checking my mailbox etc., was uneventful.

Actually in was a non-event, much better than the procedure the Authorities applied a while ago where they entered the plane through the gate under the watchful eyes of the passengers and the crew had to do the test on the flightdeck with passengers staring through the windows. This was subtle, professional and, unfortunately, necessary.

Cheers:p,
Squelch

[CaptainSquelch]

Oh by the way,

I had two beers, Amstel 250 ml, and a small glass of Balvenie Doublewood 12 years on Sunday night with my son. Some 13 hours later that amounts to 0.06 promille. This gives me a rough indication of what is needed to reach 0.23 promille.

Again: Cheers

[henra]

I had two beers, Amstel 250 ml, and a small glass of Balvenie Doublewood 12 years on Sunday night with my son. Some 13 hours later that amounts to 0.06 promille. This gives me a rough indication of what is needed to reach 0.23 promille.


Hmm, surprises me that anything was left at all.
First of all:
I feel sorry for this guy. Nobody is perfect. At least I am not.

But now for a little bit of a general view of this case:
Normally for an adult you expect a decrease of very roughly 0,01% per hour.
A 500ml Beer should give you very very roughly somewhere around 0,03%.
So In order to have 0,023% left after a night you have to drink significantly more than a glass of beer or wine.
Unless you're taking medicine or very rare cases where peolpe do not shed alcohol well.
Still every human body reacts differently and you can never know if your body sheds it well or not. If not you might easily end up as this poor guy.