Venezuelan ATR-43 Crash

[DarkStar]

47 people onboard - no other details.

[DarkStar]

Source: Reuters

CARACAS, Sept 13 (Reuters) - A plane belonging to state-run airline Conviasa crashed during a domestic flight in Venezuela with 47 people on board on Monday, a minister said. ATR42 apparently.

[A300Man]

BBC World News reporting there are 23 survivors at least. Also referring to Conviasa as the "national flag carrier".

[CL604-Pilot]

Apparently the crew experienced control problems after takeoff. They are talking about reversing of control imputs...go figure.

[readywhenreaching]

Jacdec.de (http://www.jacdec.de/news/news.htm) has more
it was an ATR-42 , YV-1010

[Machaca]

Forced landing onto grounds of SIDOR steel plant, approx 6 nm from SVPR.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Conviasa02.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Conviasa03.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Conviasa01.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/Conviasa04.jpg

[Newforest2]

Registration would appear to be YV-1010.

[flyawaybird]

2010/09/13 - City News.ca Staff reporting

The state-run Conviasa aircraft went down around 10a.m. near Puerto Ordaz, in the easter part of the country. Officials there have so far listed 23 survivors. The aircraft was heading to Margarita Island. The cause of the crash still under investigation.:sad:

[pattern_is_full]

Most recent report says flight was FROM Margarita Island TO Puerto Ordaz. And that 2 of the original 23 known survivors have died of their injuries.

AP Plane crashed with 51 aboard in Venezuela | World News | Comcast.net (http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-world/20100913/LT.Venezuela.Plane.Crash/)

Fog of war.

[ettore]

Venezuela based TeleSur reported 3 hours ago 14 casualties confirmed + 4 other bodies still trapped in the wreckage and 33 survivors transfered to medical facilities.
The TV Network also quotes the Governor of the State of Bolivar as saying that the crew told the tower that they "lost control" of the a/c, shortly after TO.

Source: TeleSURtv.net - Autoridades confirman 14 fallecidos por accidente aéreo al sur de Venezuela (http://www.telesurtv.net/noticias/secciones/nota/78237-NN/autoridades-confirman-14-fallecidos-por-accidente-aereo-al-sur-de-venezuela/)

[chulin2208]

my friend was the Cap survived the crash but died later his memory will always be in our hearts

ASN Aircraft accident ATR-42-320 YV1010 Puerto Ordaz Airport (PZO) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20100913-0)

[stepwilk]

Go figure? Happens very occasionally after maintenance, when the aileron control cables or rods are inadvertently reversed. You'd have thought by now they'd have designed out this Murphy's Law mixup, with different threads or sizes on the two cables/rods.

[ve7pnl]

We won't know for sure for awhile if the unlikely cause was reversed controls...

After about 600 hours in C150, C182 and Citabria I read an NTSB report of a poor guy that took off in a GA plane with reversed aileron cable connections.

Had a little turbulence on takeoff, rolled to correct, rolled some more, and that was it.

From that day forward there was one more item on my checklist. Until then it had been move controls, verify full range of motion. The new item: roll right, look at ailerons, think wind going by, which way will I roll. Ditto for rudder and elevator.

If I'd been told just before takeoff: your controls are backwards... still don't know if I could have adapted once I got bumped around by a little wind on takeoff.

[JEM60]

VE7PNL
When I learnt to fly many years ago, it was full, free, and EFFECTIVE movement [correct sense]. Even killed a top fighter pilot after maintenance. Ailerons were not even connected. Ejection at 90 degrees, too low. Complacency.........Drummed into me from the start. It was always on my flying schools checklist.

[rans6andrew]

in a two seat, side by side cockpit, push the stick towards the person in other seat and say out loud "up yours" checking the opposite aileron has risen. It is amazing what sticks in ones mind from the first flying lesson.

Rans6...

[jimsmitty01]

We also say that flying a B737. "Up yours.."!! I just started getting into the habit of actually looking outside as you can just about see the aileron from the flight deck.

Think its going to be a habit that will stick now! :eek:

[twochai]

If it's flown all the way from Margarita, I don't see how crossed-cables can be a problem

History shows that airframe icing can induce control reversal in some aircraft in the event of the failure of deicing systems, or failure to follow procedures.

[Mago]

It happened last week; and I am surprised nobody said nothing here.

Here is the Link: Crash: Conviasa AT42 near Puerto Ordaz on Sep 13th 2010, loss of control (http://avherald.com/h?article=430e1137&opt=0)

Regards.

[Sepp]

Such as here, you mean?

[protectthehornet]

Dear Fellow pilots:

another way of checking the flight controls is in the reflection of the terminal building at the gate. using common sense clearing procedures, with apu on providing hydraulics through your electrical pump, move the controls and watch for them in the reflection of the terminal building windows.

Flying the B737 after all the rudder problems made me like this technique.

Certainly on some planes, you might not get movement (eg: DC9 family using aerodynamic powered controls/tabs etc)...but you would see roll spoiler movement.

the first flight out of mx is dangerous...potentially.

[Mauersegler]

this is a related incident?:
ATR 72 in-flight upset traced to rudder maintenance fault (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/15/355639/atr-72-in-flight-upset-traced-to-rudder-maintenance.html)
Investigators are warning ATR operators that a crucial rudder component could be installed incorrectly in the turboprop, after the crew of an Air Contractors aircraft experienced serious control problems after take-off from Edinburgh a month ago

I heard the (supposed) CVR-recording of Conviasa (It was leaked to the internet, but don't ask me, I don't have a link now) and there was apparently a increasing difficulty to move the controls. Does anybody knows more eventually? I'm not really sure the venezuelan authorities are doing things at a adequate speed, that's why I write here again :ugh:

[twochai]

I doubt very much that this was the same problem, otherwise the aircraft could not have flown from Isla Margarita to Puerto Ordaz without any obvious control problems.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/427329-venezuelan-atr-43-crash.html#post5934058

More likely, the problem was just one more case of the reversal of flight control forces on ATR's operating in heavy icing conditions, like the most recent crash of the Cuban airline Aerocaribbean, which occurred about six weeks after this last accident in Venezuela. Follow this link:

ASN Aircraft accident ATR-72-212 CU-T1549 Guasimal, Sancti Spiritus Province (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20101104-0)

It's not rocket science.

By the way, before you ask the question, heavy icing is not unusual in the tropics at turbo-prop cruise altitudes, around 20K'.

[no-hoper]

The Venezuelan ATR was not equipped with a TLU (travel limiter unit) which failed on the Air Contractor 72 after wrong installation.

[Mauersegler]

Thanks no-hoper, then it was clearly not related. Hopefully the investigation make progress.

Twochai: the distance Porlamar-Puerto Ordaz is 321km/172nm, they had the problem at least 20 minutes before impact and were apparently flying FL150 before the problems appeared and asked to descend to FL110 (not sure of this). Does this speak for icing? At least in the CVR there is not a single mention about ice/icing conditions. They perceived it as a technical fault.

[Escape Path]

I heard the CVR a few days ago and they treated it like "Pitch control jam" if I'm not mistaken

[JammedStab]

ULTIMOS MINUTOS DE CONVIASA CAJA NEGRA, AVION ATR - YouTube

Perhaps a translation into english please

[FLEXPWR]

Could be unrelated, but many years ago, I flew a particular ATR42 which had a strange "feel" when checking the rudder travel. I could not really pinpoint what it was, but it just felt maybe like a squeeky door, without the sound.
I notified the maintenance but they found nothing wrong after regular "tested on ground".
After a few more days, my doubts grew stronger and insisted to have a check again through the whole cable/quadrants, that something felt wrong, and a bit catching on the rudder travel (no TLU on the ATR42).

The maintenance found the rudder cable run on the wrong side of an aluminum bar (part of reinforcement for the toilet panel ceiling, close to pressure bulhead). The cable had started to "saw" through the aluminum bar, when discovered, it was more that half way eaten up, about 12-15mm. It took probably hundreds of hours, if not thousands, for a smooth steel cable to cut through an aluminum bar, and for many hours, the rudder movement would have felt the same as usual.
After talking to a maintenance rep in ATR (manufacturer) a while later, they told me it was not the first time this mistake had been done.

I can only imagine that the cable would end up being stuck once the aluminum bar starts to flex and bend, anyways, just an option, many more possibilities.

I have flown thousands of hours on ATRs on different continents, and would rule out icing if the anti/de-ice system was working properly and procedures followed. At these latitudes, anything below 15000' you don't get icing. Hard to imagine even heavy icing not melting past 12000' on descent.

Flex