Flying a JP

[VMC-on-top]

When I landed back yesterday, I met up with two guys returning in a JP - a group I've considered joining last year and whilst chatting to them, it made me think some more about joining again.

On the one hand, its great fun to fly, very manouverable, just had a new engine, very cheap to join the group, relatively cheap to fly (£300 / hr @ 250kts) and very, very different from the PA28 I fly now.

On the other hand, its old, its a jet, the systems are much more complex than a PA28, it doesn't have ejection seats, it weighs 3.5 tonnes so landing fees are a relative fortune, can't be flown in IMC (not that you'd particularly want to) and its not really a "going places" aircraft.

When I was chatting to these two, one of the guys I know does about 100hrs a year in it and I believe joined the group when he had sub-100 hours total. He's quite straight up and says that its down to what sort of flying you want to do - hour building and touring or going for a low level blast round the Mach loop every so often etc. The other guy was (not sure if he's on this forum) to be honest, a bit full of himself - more of a "I rather fly this once a month than mess about in a silly 152" kind of person.

I personally don't think that flying a 250kt jet low level once a month for an hour or so is safe - at all! But, interested to know if anyone else has, or has had, a share in anything similar and what their views are of safety, both of the aircraft, hours required and technical knowledge of the aircraft?

I was chatting to a mate (ex RAF multi engine pilot), who said he did a few hours on JP's before going on to complete training on Tucano's. He seems to remember that the RAF required circa 150 hours before letting anyone loose on the JPs / Tucanos but then again, the RAF training is much more intense and repetitive than anything in civvy street (albeit I accept, probably better in the long run).

[Unusual Attitude]

VMC, drop me a PM and I'll fill you in a bit more, I used to fly this very jet.

[VMC-on-top]

thanks, have PM'd you.

[Unusual Attitude]

No probs, have replied, had to laugh at the 250kts at £300 per hr, flat out it only does circa 270kts low level, 180kts normal cruise and probably still burning more than £300 per hr.... I can cruise my Cassutt at that speed on approx £40 per hour !!!

[Lister Noble]

Just being nosey,What's a Cassult?:)
Lister

[Rod1]

A Cassutt is a single seat LAA approved hombuilt designed to an old air racing spec. From memory, 100hp max?

Rod1

[Blink182]

I've no connection to the seller, but here is an advert for a Cassutt.........

Cassutt IIIM Racer G-RUNT £14,500 (http://afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=16850&imid=0)

[Unusual Attitude]

Indeed, thats the last of the ex Dukes of Cassutt machines that Richard Grace displayed, I bought G-BOMB which has only approx 150hrs TT AF and Eng and a starter fitted, was totally rebuilt 2 years ago. Bit of a handfull with a gusty crosswind but otherwise nothing like as bad to fly as the reputation suggests....cruise 160mph at 20L per hr, 180mph at 21L per hr and 200mph at a bit more....VNE 248mph which it does easily in a slight descent...

[D SQDRN 97th IOTC]

£300 per hour?
Blimey.
£300 per hour?
Are you sure?

[VMC-on-top]

I'm the wrong person to ask, its just what I've been told!

What would you expect it to be?

Unusual Attitude is probably better placed to answer, as he used to fly it.

[NigelOnDraft]

VMC

For background I have 1200+hrs on JPs, ~200 in last 8 years or so instructing for JP groups at North Weald. The bulk was instructing on them in the RAF.

He seems to remember that the RAF required circa 150 hours before letting anyone loose on the JPs RAF hardly ever measures in hours! They sent people who had never flown before solo in JPs in <10hrs if they were up to it.

I personally don't think that flying a 250kt jet low level once a month for an hour or so is safe JP3 is max, say 260K S&L, 5 350K, 4 in between. To fly >250K <10K' you need a radar service - interpret "need" as you will ;) "Low Level" is illegal, and in a JP you'll get caught - they are not that common, and bl**dy noisy! >500' is not Low Level and legal, but pretty anti-social.

They will eat, at current prices, ~£400/hr in fuel. If you troll around at 180K at medium level, you'll reduce that, roar around at 250K/500' maybe double it. Maint costs will probably double the cost/hr, and very much down to how many hours the owners fly. By prepared for some annuals over five digits. Hence why <<very cheap to join the group>> they need more people to split the annual between :rolleyes:

Most guys only fly, say, 10 hrs / year. Training is as per a proper syllabus, thereafter 6 monthly or annual dual checks, all as laid down in CAP 632.

I would quite happily train a 50hr PPL, and if they listen to what you say (and were taught well), will solo in a few hours. I have flown 500hr+ PPLs who will never go solo.

and what their views are of safety, both of the aircraft, hours required and technical knowledge of the aircraft?
Safety: As safe as normal PPL flying, so long as CAP632 / OCM are applied sensibly. If there is a "Problem" same as any aeroplane, the attitude of the pilot.
Hours reqd: as above - PPL + a bit is worthwhile.
Tech Knowledge: Will be covered by instructors, nothing too difficult if you put the work in ;)

HTH?
NoD

[Unusual Attitude]

Spot on NoD,

The aircraft in question has no hourly costs, yup thats right you pay for only the fuel you burn and your landing fees. Great group model if you fly 100hrs per year in it as one member does (lots of free fuel from airshow attendance) and then split the bills equally come permit time. Not so good if like most you only manage 5-10hrs per year but are then landed with a share of £10k-£15k bill when something expensive goes pop....

As NoD points out fuel burn depends on how you fly but even on an average sortie I'd think £300 is an understatement.

Not a difficult aircraft to fly at all, I solo'd it in the minimum 5hrs, spent a couple of weeks studying the tech manaul and learning the systems etc but most of it was stuff I'd learned during my ATPL's so pretty straighforward.

Makes a lot of noise but the JP3 really isnt that exciting once you've got used to it, JP4/5 has considerably more grunt...

As for safety I'd look at the training sylabus you'll be undertaking and how well the aircraft is maintained...

[NigelOnDraft]

Further to UA's points...

JP3: Call it "baseline" model. Underpowered, but once energy built up, the nicest handling e.g. for aeros. Smaller engine, flown at lower speeds, uses least fuel. I did 1:30 airborne the other day at mostly 180K-190K doing a photoshoot and used ~1500lb of fuel.

JP5: Bigger motor :ok: Streamlined nose. Electric Windows. Pressurised = quiet inside (you canot tell how fast you are going by noise). Gentleman's touring version, handles signifcantly more poorly than JP3 due heavier, and in the RAF version I flew / JP5 I now fly, no tip tanks (reduces roll rate). The weight, higher cruise speed, bigger engine = uses much more fuel than a JP3. We could use the same 1500lb of fuel in 35min TO-Ldg in RAF 300K+ low level navs :ooh:

JP4: Essentially JP3 with JP5 motor. Not as fast as JP5 since still has blunt nose. Feels more powerful on takeoff than JP5 since lighter, and no pressurisation. Not quite as nice handling as JP3 - ailerons adapted due higher max IAS (400K). Fuel between the above 2, depends on how heavy your left hand is ;) Were not around when I was in the RAF since they were such fun the JP3s were stored until the JP4s fatigued out!

Be aware that there is an "MPD" out there restricting some JPs to +3g/-0.25g. Pretty much a waste of time flying one with that in place :{ It is "removed" by some expensive engineering (wings off, lugs/bushes checked / re-worked). I believe any JP with the MPD in place does have to have the work done at some point i.e. within X hours. I would steer well clear of a JP with that MPD in place, and only offer to join after the work has been done (and paid for!) / the limits removed.

NoD

[Unusual Attitude]

Are there any JP4's still flying just out of interest? Eddie Todd had the last one I saw getting regular use but he sold that a couple of years back.....did a 45min trip in it a few years ago and he certainly didnt hold back! :ok:

[NigelOnDraft]

Are there any JP4's still flying just out of interest? Yes - I Flight Checked G-BXLO last month, and regularly instruct on G-PROV. The owners will claim the latter is not a JP4, but T52 ;) Essentially was a JP4, got armed up for the Middle East, and still has Gun Ports / Weapon Switiching stick tops and Air-Con, and is flown using JP4 manuals/techniques etc.

See Swords Aviation (http://www.swordsaviation.co.uk/) at North Weald.

NoD

[MichaelJP59]

Are there any JP4's still flying just out of interest? Eddie Todd had the last one I saw getting regular use but he sold that a couple of years back.....did a 45min trip in it a few years ago and he certainly didnt hold back!

He used to keep that at Sandtoft didn't he? I'm based there now but he sold it before I moved - the runway is only 880m x 18m though, was he particularly talented or is that generally OK for a JP?

[Neptunus Rex]

Just do it!

[Unusual Attitude]

I remember departing from 1200m one on a hot summers day with full mains and tips in a Mk3 and there wasn't much room for error, more grunt from the mk4 but even so I'd think it's pretty tight, must have gone through a lot of brakes!

[stiknruda]

Lister - the Cassutt is not for us dear chap, racing snakes only!

JP's - I've flown the 3, 4A and 5 many years ago when in Aunty Bett's Flying Club. Personally, I'd leave them well alone and find an aerobatic LAA type for a tenth of the hourly fuel burn and have ten times more fun!

[NigelOnDraft]

and find an aerobatic LAA type for a tenth of the hourly fuel burnAre you sure :ooh: Is there an LAA type that burns that much :confused:

NoD

[Miles Magister]

I flew the JP straight after finishing my PPL on a C150 in 20 hrs. It is not difficult to fly, they let 19 year olds like me loose on it. It is a bit different to a PA28 but it is actually easier to fly, it is and flies like a classic aircraft. You do have to manage your energy, but all aircraft required that then, that is one of the skills.

It is basic and straightforward and a delight, I loved it and would love to fly one again.

Go do it and make sure you do not get tense and just enjoy it and I promise not to be envious!

MM

[Unusual Attitude]

Certainly not a racing snake old chap, 90kg and 6'3", tight around the shoulders but G-BOMB was specifically built for the larger pilot and is probably the only one I could actually fit in!

[NigelOnDraft]

Neptunus Rex Just do it! I would expand on this point.

The CAA, despite appearances, take a positive attitude to flying machines such as the JP.

It is not beyond comprehension that in the (near) future, an event occurs that removes the practiciality of doing so... could be a bad PR accident, the Green brigade, taxes, noise, an EU "regulator", maintenance issue.

Whilst the ££ involved are not cheap, in 5? 10? years time the cost / ability / privilege of flying them might seem good value for a somewhat unique experience no longer available.

NoD

PS NB Thunder City seems, unfortunately, an "option" to fly a FJ no longer available - say a Lighting trip at £5K? Concorde ditto at, say, £3K. I am sure in the coming years, many would have leapt at such an opportunity/cost?

[7of9]

G-BXLO

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/kirksandall/040708_367.jpg

Trev