Some general beginner questions

[just_me]

Hi everyone!

I'm sorry if these questions have been asked before, but I have done some searching and the information was either old or not precise enough, so please don't point me to the search button (lets face it, according to the other thread, you need every member you can get ;))

1. I know it varies, but what would the average yearly cost/hourly cost be for something like this: Cessna 175 Must sell, £16,500 (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=16083&imid=0)

2. What are the cheapest planes you can buy with the lowest running costs? (Any particular ones?)

3. If following the route PPL -> CPL -> ATPL etc. could you make a career out of flying by starting with a small plane, work up your hours, gradually get bigger then end up flying private jets or cargo planes or something? Or is this 'route' only intended for hobby flying? Any more info relating to this as i'm sure i've got something wrong would be great :ugh:

4. Can you fly in europe (outside UK) with a CPL? What about flying outside Europe?

All help/advice is greatly appreciated! :)

[IO540]

1. I know it varies, but what would the average yearly cost/hourly cost be for something like this: Cessna 175 Must sell, £16,500 (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=16083&imid=0)

I don't know this type but it will depend strongly on the condition. A 1960 plane will be a black hole for airframe parts, due to (a) wear and (b) corrosion. But it may not be, if it has a long history of having been well looked after and hangared. You need a specialist to check it out.

2. What are the cheapest planes you can buy with the lowest running costs? (Any particular ones?)

Among certified ones built from aluminium, I doubt there is much difference, and on something this old, what differences there are will be swamped by the general maintenance. On a pure running cost basis something small and homebuilt will be cheapest to run but you cannot fly it IFR or unrestricted abroad.

3. If following the route PPL -> CPL -> ATPL etc. could you make a career out of flying by starting with a small plane, work up your hours, gradually get bigger then end up flying private jets or cargo planes or something? Or is this 'route' only intended for hobby flying? Any more info relating to this as i'm sure i've got something wrong would be great :ugh:

I doubt the business opportunity exists in Europe. Any commercial work is so heavily loaded with regulatory garbage (AOC etc) that making a living as a one man band is tough. If you want to build hours to become a commercial pilot then having your own plane will be a great way to do it, and you can go to interesting places while at it. But getting some money for it will be tough.

4. Can you fly in europe (outside UK) with a CPL? What about flying outside Europe?

If country of license issue matches country of aircraft registry, then you have worldwide privileges, noncommercial, VFR. If on that license you also have an IR, then you can fly IFR. But commercial privileges are a different thing and are subject to various national protectionist deals.

About the only context where a CPL alone is good is where you are a paid pilot for an aircraft owner. Then your CPL/IR is good worldwide and no AOC is required.

BTW, the plane you are looking at is N-reg which cannot be taken outside the UK unless you have an FAA license (reference: FAR 61.3). This is not a huge deal but is probably a level of hassle not warranted at this low level of expenditure.

[Sir George Cayley]

Welcome Just_Me,

I'm immediately worried about that 'plane. I think the 175 had a non-standard engine. Better check out the details as, if it's the geared Roller, I think it is ask yourself why are there so few?

Cheapest planes with lowest running costs = LAA homebuilt on a Permit with a VW engine. You can buy things for sub 5 grand that burn 15 lit/hr and you do all the maintenance yourself.

I think the Self Improver Route is dead now. Others more knowledgeable will be along soon to explain the new way.

With an ICAO equivalent licence you can fly anywhere. JAR/FCL is good to go.

Good luck.

Sir George Cayley

[just_me]

Thanks for the help!!

Just to clarify, the link was just an "example".. i'm a long long way from buying, but I want to start gaining information as early as possible as there seems to be a lot to it all.

I'm a bit confused about the licesnsing and how you could fly for a living, is it hard to find jobs as a pilot? What excactly does the CPL/ATPL allow? What would the routes be just to fly private business planes, or commercial airlines planes? Do the hours gained flying a small plane really count towards getting a licence to fly for an airline? I dont think I'm interested in airline flying, what other options are there? I know money is an issue, but putting money to one side, would buying a plane and gaining hours that way be good? Is there any other way to "make money" as you're gaining hours? For higher jobs, such as airline pilot, can you just take the licence, so you dont need any other 'qualifications'?

This is all really confusing...

Adding to my previous post

You said you dont think the oppoprtunities exist in Europe, do they exist somewhere else? I wouldn't have any problems relocating anywhere in the world really..

[AdamFrisch]

I do not know anything about maintenance as I've not owned an aircraft yet so this should be taken cum grano salis. I can tell one thing about the 175. It's got the geared GO-300 engine. These engines are generally costlier to overhaul than direct drive ones and also have a lower TBO.

I had a short mental breakdown not long ago when I looked at buying an old clapped out Aero Commander with the GSO-480 engines. Granted, they're bigger and more complex, but the overhaul was quoted as $40.000 each, which is about $10.000 more than the direct drive equivalents.

It could be different with this geared Continental in the 175, but something you should look into.

[Whopity]

I'm a bit confused about the licesnsing and how you could fly for a living, is it hard to find jobs as a pilot? What excactly does the CPL/ATPL allow? What would the routes be just to fly private business planes, or commercial airlines planes? Do the hours gained flying a small plane really count towards getting a licence to fly for an airline?
A PPL allows Worldwide flying but no remuneration of the pilot (there may be some concessions i.e. Instruction)
A CPL allows you to be paid as a pilot but in order to fly a plane having more than one pilot you must have passed all the exams at ATPL level
ATPL allows you to be the PIC (Captain) of a Multi-Pilot aeroplane and requires at least 500 hours experience as a co-pilot first.
All flying hours count but experience may be crequired at different levels i.e. 500 hours multi-pilot to qualify for an ATPL.
You can still work your way up; its called the Modular route.

[IO540]

Is it no longer possible to self build hours?

I thought that if I clocked up say 1000hrs in my plane, including 100hrs at night, got a CPL/IR (which in Europe means all the 14 ATPL exams), got a type rating for some multi-crew jet, I could then fly RHS in that jet until I have done 500hrs in the RHS, and then my ATPL becomes "unfrozen" and I can move over to the LHS.

I thought that 99% of PPL instructors were doing exactly the above :) They certainly used to be.

On the FAA scene the route to the ATPL is potentially different (I could clock up 1500hrs in my plane, including 100 night, and go straight for the ATPL via a CPL/IR (1 exam, 1 checkride) and have a single engine ATPL :) Not very useful though... over having a CPL/IR.

I have a son wondering how he can make a living flying and I think the best route may be to get turboprop/jet experience and then you can be a paid pilot for a wealthy plane owner. This can be done on a CPL/IR unless the plane is multi-crew (which most of the bigger business jets are) but an FAA ATPL is reasonably achievable.

Whereas the JAA 500hrs multi crew time (needed for an airline job on a European carrier) is totally beyond what almost anybody can achieve on their own. The only way is to get a RHS job and sit there for 500hrs.

[Whopity]

Is it no longer possible to self build hours?Yes, its still the primary route and is likely to continue that way.I could then fly RHS in that jet until I have done 500hrs in the RHS, and then my ATPL becomes "unfrozen" and I can move over to the LHS.Nothing ever becomes "unfrozen" If you have met all of the requirements for ATPL issue then you can apply for the issue of a New Licence otherwise, you still have a CPL/IR!Whereas the JAA 500hrs multi crew time (needed for an airline job on a European carrier) is totally beyond what almost anybody can achieve on their own. It could be argued that unless you have 500 hours RHS time you don't need an ATPL!

[just_me]

Thanks for all the info.

I've been doing some research and was wondering if this would be possible:

Buy a small plane (like a 172 or similar), start gaining hours with an instructor, get a PPL, then keep flying/learning and take all the other things (ATPL, CPL, etc.) then eventually end up flying for an airline/private jet? How common is this? I always thought you required other qualifications such as degrees in Maths/Physics or similar.. to fly for an airline/etc.

If you buy a very small plane, do the hours still count towards CPL/ATPL, or do you need a bigger ac as you get to he 'higher' licences? Once you have ATPL can you fly for an airline? How common is it for people to buy their own plane right from the start and train with it, is it better? Can fly anywhere in the world with a PPL as long as the ac 'allows' it? Are there any limits when building up hours, so could you theoretically fly 10 hours a day every day until you have enough?

[Whopity]

All training for licences has to be conducted at an appropriate organisation. For the PPL it is currently known as a Registered Facility but from April 2012 it will have to be an Approved Training Organisation. All higher licences already require an approved Training Organisation so its not quite as simple as buying an aircraft and finding an instructor. To get to ATPL level its going to cost around £40,000 plus; owning your own aircraft is not really going to help beyond the 150-200 hour stage.

[IO540]

It could be argued that unless you have 500 hours RHS time you don't need an ATPL!

That's a funny way to look at it, yes :)

However I think there are exceptions. Recently I was fortunate to be able to fly a TBM850 (with a factory instructor) and in researching the necessary pilot qualifications it turned out that an ICAO ATPL (which includes the otherwise not very useful FAA single engine ATPL) can serve as one of the necessary qualifications. So, building 1500hrs in a Cessna 150 and getting the FAA ATPL is not totally useless and could actually be quite useful one day, though not in any airline pilot context.

Pilot Qualifications
US registered aircraft
No Type Rating is required because the TBM is below 12500lb and is not a turbojet. There is a "High Altitude Endorsement" ground course with 1 flight to simulate explosive depressurisation and oxygen mask use, etc.
FAA prerequisites are: PPL, CPL or ATPL. To be PIC of N-reg TBM you need three endorsements, all of which can be issued by any FAA instructor: High Altitude (all aircraft certified above FL250), High Performance (all aircraft with more than 200 HP per engine), and Complex (all aircraft with retractable gear).
EASA registered aircraft
In EASA-land, no Type Rating is required but there is a Class Rating called: "Aerospatiale S.E.T." (the name will soon be changed to "Aerospatiale TBM").
The Class rating is valid for 2 years and it is mandatory to pass a Class Rating proficiency check to renew the Class Rating every 2 years. This Class Rating can be done by a Class Rating Instructor (CRI); it is not mandatory to do it in a Flight Training Organisation (FTO). After the training, the Check Ride will be done by a Class Rating Examiner (CRE).
JAA prerequisites are: PPL, CPL or ATPL, and an "HPA" (High Performance Airplane") course certificate (which is not needed if one has passed the ATPL exams or holds any ICAO ATPL). The "HPA" course must be done in a Flight Training Organisation (FTO).

[Whopity]

This Class Rating can be done by a Class Rating Instructor (CRI); it is not mandatory to do it in a Flight Training Organisation (FTO)This is subject to a CRI being authorised to do it. I am not aware of any "individual" authorisatins in the UK. Under EASA a HPA rating cannot be taught by a CRI it will have to be a TRI(SPA)at an ATO!

[just_me]

So, is it worth buying your own ac, will it be a lot more expensive? Surely being able to fly whenever wherever you want makes it worth it?

Also, is the modular route PPL -> CPL -> ATPL? Does hours in a small ac count towards ATPL or do you need something bigger?

Oh, and do you need to be 23 to get a ATPL? How hard is it to find odd jobs with a CPL, like banner flying etc.? So basically, you won't get a good/serious job before you're 23 or?

Really appreciate any help/info!

[mrmum]

So, is it worth buying your own ac, will it be a lot more expensive?

If you've got the capital available to buy something suitable, then why not. It'll maybe save you a little money in the medium term, unless you're unlucky and get hit with some big bills.
If you want something to do as much as possible of the modular course, i.e. PPL, night qual. probably an IMCr and some serious hours building, then it's probably going to need to be something with a CofA (and associated expense). Something on a LAA permit would be cheaper, but perhaps not as useful for your particular circumstances.

Also, is the modular route PPL -> CPL -> ATPL? Does hours in a small ac count towards ATPL or do you need something bigger?

The modular route (or integrated for that matter) is PPL to CPL, often (but not quite correctly) referred to as a frozen ATPL. The CPL can, but doesn't have to, include a multi-engine rating and instrument rating. Flying hours "generally" count whatever they're in, so you could do up to 1000 in your own aircraft, whatever that happened to be (quite expensive though:eek:). To get an ATPL issued you will need 500 hours on a multi-pilot aircraft, so that will require a type rating on "something bigger", a MCC course and an IR. For this bit you will have to have found someone willing to give you a job, unless you've got the kind of budget that will run to a MPA.

Oh, and do you need to be 23 to get a ATPL? How hard is it to find odd jobs with a CPL, like banner flying etc.? So basically, you won't get a good/serious job before you're 23 or?

You must be 21 to hold an ATPL, 18 for a CPL and 17 for a PPL.

Odd jobs with a CPL! :ugh: Nigh on impossible at the moment I would think, unless you're well connected (which I guess you're not, or you wouldn't be asking this kind of stuff on PPRuNe) or really lucky.

[mrmum]

SoCal App

Fair enough, I perhaps should have said;

From LASORS, An applicant for a JAR-FCL ATPL(A) shall be at least 21 years of age.

although the OP is in the UK, so I was assuming he was enquiring about the situation here.

[just_me]

Thank you mrmum! Very helpful! So a frozen ATPL is when you have everything you need for ATPL apart from the hours? And i'm guessing most people get their hours whilst working? Or do you need 'buy' your own hours up to 1500?

Also, what does this mean?: "The ATPL theoretical training shall be of at least 750 study hours under JAA requirements."

Oh, and is there really nothing you can do with CPL? Are there more opportunities if you own your own ac?

If buying an ac, would it be best to do so whilst starting PPL or later? Is it really true you can 'save' money as opposed to renting? (As long as I can actually get the money required :p)

Thanks again!

[Whopity]

So, is it worth buying your own ac, will it be a lot more expensive? Surely being able to fly whenever wherever you want makes it worth it?

Also, is the modular route PPL -> CPL -> ATPL? Does hours in a small ac count towards ATPL or do you need something bigger?
You can only fly whenever/wherever you want when you have a licence so by then you will already have say 60 hours. If you want to go commercial then you are going to need an IR and a CPL as a start point. Now you need a multiengine aeroplane for the IR and at least a complex aeroplane for some of the CPL course so your own aeroplane may not fit the bill unless you intend to buy an IR equipped twin with the associated costs. In any event you would need to purchase a well equipped aeroplane to get any real value out of it. In case you haven't noticed, the equipment can cost more than the aircraft!

If you can afford to buy an aeroplane and fly lots of hours in it, go right ahead, but it isn't really going to help you get an ATPL any quicker or cheaper. If you have that sort of money to spare, then why not enrol on the best commercial course you can find. That way you have more chance of earning money at the end of it. Typically to run a light aircraft economically, you need to fly it at least 200 hours a year. 150 of those hours might be useful towards your licence experience.

[IO540]

As someone who bought his own plane in less than 1 year of getting the PPL, and never regretted it for even 1 second, I think one can make a very good case for ownership, over self fly hire, etc. and the biggest pluses will not be financial (the strictly calculated financial breakeven point over SFH will indeed need a lot of hours to be flown annually). The biggest pluses will be access, maintenance to your standard, etc.

However I think buying a plane for hour building just seems doing it upside down. Flying 1000hrs (hrs which count towards an ATPL) in your own plane is going to cost you of the order of £100k, and where on earth are you going to be flying 1000hrs to? I have accumulated over 1100hrs in 8 years in the TB20 but I have gone to a lot of far away places in Europe, which swelled the logbook nicely, but one would not be doing trips like that in something which is cheap to fly. Sure one could buy a C152 and just fly it up and down the UK and log the flights (I wonder how many people have invented a few logbook entries; it would be so obviously easy if flying between strips, where no records are kept) but it would be excrutiatingly boring. And it would be a lot cheaper in the USA.

I think one needs to get into private flying for a good reason (touring, aerobatics, whatever) but not plain hour building.

[just_me]

Thanks againt for the help!

I've done some more research and it seems it's a lot cheaper flying/learning in the US, is this true? Why is it cheaper there? If I have the 'capital' would it be worth going over there and doing everything?

Also, I knew the market was tough, but after stumbling upon "Pay to fly" it has worried me a bit, how likely is it that this will change? Is the problem that there ARE NO JOBS or that EVERYONE WANTS THE BEST JOBS? I don't mean only for airlines, but what about flying cargo, mail, private jets, etc.? Does 'knowing' someone in the 'industry' help? I might be able to get in touch with someone, but it would be a long shot.. hehe

[mrmum]

Also, what does this mean?: "The ATPL theoretical training shall be of at least 750 study hours under JAA requirements."

This means that the regulatory body has deemed that training providers shall pad out their syllabus and study materials with enough irrelevant and obsolete b******s, to try and ensure that their students must waste 750 hours of their lives reading the manuals. Time which could be much better spent learning the answers off question bank.;)

[mrmum]

So a frozen ATPL is when you have everything you need for ATPL apart from the hours? And i'm guessing most people get their hours whilst working? Or do you need 'buy' your own hours up to 1500?

That's pretty much correct, a fATPL if that's what we're going call it, is when you actually have a CPL, have passed the ATPL theory exams, probably with a MCC course and IR. But you don't have some or all of the various hours requirements.

Yes, most people will get the hours between CPL and ATPL by working, you could "buy" them, but as has been said by myself and others, it'll be expensive.

[mrmum]

Oh, and is there really nothing you can do with CPL? Are there more opportunities if you own your own ac?

There are several things you can do with a CPL, most of which will require some kind of additional rating, for instance;

Instruct - also requires a FI(R) rating
Banner Towing
Pleasure Flights
Photography
Be a FO - will require an IR, MCC, Type rating

Getting to do any of there in the current climate will be difficult, however you are realistically about 2 years from being ready for the job market. Not sure if having your own aircraft will help much in any of the above. Maybe, in the instructor case, if you had something quite nice and desirable, that a club might lease off you, but generally no I think.

[mrmum]

I've done some more research and it seems it's a lot cheaper flying/learning in the US, is this true? Why is it cheaper there? If I have the 'capital' would it be worth going over there and doing everything?

Yes, it will almost certainly be cheaper to do as much as possible in the US, or the other countries that you see advertising quite heavily.

It is cheaper for several reasons;

Fuel price, a significant proportion of aircraft operating costs is fuel, so cheap fuel directly equates to cheap flying.
Utilisation, by the US people mostly mean Florida, to a degree California and maybe Arizona and Texas. They tend to have generally predictable, year round decent flying weather, so their fixed costs are split over a greater number of flying hours.
CAA/FAA, they're not being over-charged and over-regulated to death by their NAA.
Landing fees, largely non-existant over there.
£-$ exchange rate, depends I know, but can help.


If you've got the time and capital, it'll be worth it financially to go and do as much as you can in the States. Flying is flying wherever you are, you should learn the same aircraft handling skills regardless of location, there is a case to be made for getting familiarity with European airspace, procedures and weather while training. We don't really need to go over all this though, just have a root about with the search function for pros and cons of flying abroad.

But you've pretty much hit on my pet hate here. It really p:mad:s me off when people f:mad:k off to the States, spend all their money over there, then come back expecting the UK GA industry to provide them with a job. They moan about the lack of airfields, cost of landings, cost/quality of aircraft. However, if they had stayed and done their training here, then UK clubs and airfields would have had their money to invest back into fleets and facilities over here.:*

[mrmum]

Does 'knowing' someone in the 'industry' help?

Yes, undoubtedly. It's as much who you know, being in the right place at the right time, as having all the bits of paper and boxes ticked.

[just_me]

Just a quick question, didn't want to make another thread for it so i'll ressurect this one instead..

1. I've read that you need to be 21 to recieve ATPL, but is it possible to take all the exams and/or still work as a co-pilot for an airline before you're 21, or do you have to wait until you're actually 21 THEN get your 'Frozen ATPL'.. I would of thought that you could still do everything before you're 21 you just won't actually recieve the ATPL until you're 21?

2. I know I asked this before, but are there ANY "CPL" jobs ANYWHERE? No matter how low paid it is there must be something out there for someone who is able to fly a plane. What about flying doctors/aid/whatever around Africa, ANYTHING! I'd much rather fly for mimimum wage than work behind a counter for minimum wage. So I figured it would be better if there was something out there I could just get my PPL/CPL a.s.a.p and then earn money for hours/exams by flying. Otherwise, is there any way to build hours for free anywhere in the UK or outside UK?

3. I'm still stuck whether to stay in UK or go to the US, some people say US is miles chapers, others say that when you take into account travelling/living/conversion costs it ends up being about the same. What other options are there, other European countries? Or what about South America? Asia? I'd imagine if something exists out there it would be a lot cheaper over there?

4. Just to make sure I understood everything, when you go from nothing -> fATPL you pay for flying lessons/hours and you study by yourself for ALL the necessary PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL exams, basically read the books then go and do the test? It seems a bit.. too easy to be true..

5. How common is it that you have to pay for Type Rating yourself?

6. I know there's a saturation of pilots out there, but is it mostly the fact that everyone wants the 'best' jobs or are there really NO jobs out there? Everyone here talks about Ryanair and BA but what about flying mail/cargo/etc. or flying oil rig equipment out to the dessert (like Flight of the Phoenix :O) Why are they never mentioned here? Does everyone just want the big paycheck and 'sexy' uniform? :oh:

Whoops, it seems like my quick question became six questions :ugh:

Oh well... I hope someone has answers :sad:

Thanks in advance!

[Fuji Abound]

3. I'm still stuck whether to stay in UK or go to the US, some people say US is miles chapers, others say that when you take into account travelling/living/conversion costs it ends up being about the same. What other options are there, other European countries? Or what about South America? Asia? I'd imagine if something exists out there it would be a lot cheaper over there?


There isnt a simple answer.

The cost equation is made up of a number of components some of which may apply to you and some may not. For example, if you earn £100 an hour endless trips to the airport with lessons cancelled due to weather may make the certainty of flying in parts of the States very attractive.

In short you need to do the sums. The actual cost of rental in the States was significantly cheaper, the gap has narrowed, but it is still less. However, you may need to add loss of income (while training in the States), cost of accomodation and travel to the States, additional training back in the UK to deal with local club / group rules and our grey weather etc.

In short the headline cost is less, but the overall cost may be more. You need to work the sums for your own circumstances.

[mrmum]

1. I've read that you need to be 21 to recieve ATPL, but is it possible to take all the exams and/or still work as a co-pilot for an airline before you're 21, or do you have to wait until you're actually 21 THEN get your 'Frozen ATPL'.. I would of thought that you could still do everything before you're 21 you just won't actually recieve the ATPL until you're 21?

YES, you must be a minimum of 21 to have an ATPL issued.
YES, you can have everything done anytime between 18 and 21, have a CPL issued and use it, this situation is commonly referred to as having a fATPL, although you never actually possess this fATPL thing, what you have is a CPL and meet some of (usually the theoretical) requirements for an ATPL, when you manage to tick all the boxes then you can trade-up from CPL to ATPL.

4. Just to make sure I understood everything, when you go from nothing -> fATPL you pay for flying lessons/hours and you study by yourself for ALL the necessary PPL/CPL/IR/ATPL exams, basically read the books then go and do the test? It seems a bit.. too easy to be true..

YES, you pay for the flying as you go.
People probably mostly self-study for the PPL theory exams, as they are not very hard, can be done one at a time and at your own convenience. There are a good selection of books & CD/DVDs available and plenty of practice exam papers out there, both in book and online forms. However for the professional theoretical exams it's different. Pretty much nobody does the CPL level exams, everyone just goes straight to the ATPLs, which also cover the theoretical knowledge requirements for the IR. You are not allowed to just self-study then turn up for the exams, you have to do a course with an approved training provider (such as Bristol GS), this can be done full-time if you wish, but distance learning with residential brush-up at the end is more popular if following the modular route.