Circuit Speeds for C-152

[KandiFloss]

Good morning!

Sadly, due to finances i'm having to downgrade from a PA-28 to a C-152 :{. I began my trainning in them, but didn't like them, and so only flew them for a short while, so I can't remember the circuit speeds.

I recently had an hour in a C-152 with an instructor to count towards my PPL revalidation. We didn't do any circuits as my instructor just wanted to see me do stalls + a PFL, and so we didn't discuss circuit speeds.

I know my C-152 check-list has a minimum take-off speed of 57 knots, and that the flap limiting speed is 85 knots. Last time I flew, I flew downwind at 80 knots as I forgot to check the ciruit speeds. (I know ... I should go to the pilot naughty corner :ugh:). But I would greatly appreciate sensible downwind, base and final speeds from experienced 152 pilots.

Many thanks

[J.A.F.O.]

I'd say it's whatever the PoH says but I'd start off by thinking:

Downwind - Whatever you get
Base - Within flap limiting speed
Approach - 1.3Vs

There's nothing wrong with a 152, you can have more fun per pound spent than many other places. As with many things in life, it's not what you've got, it's what you do with it.

[Pilot DAR]

In respect of some aspects of flying a plane, many speeds in particular, how you fly the plane could be best compared to how do things on a nice date.

Be sensative to the plane and environment, try and figure out what would be best for it right then. With the exception of certain manufacturer's stated speeds, (Best rate climb, short field approach as a couple of examples), you're better to feel what the plane would like you to be doing with it. Does the plane feel right? Do you feel you have adequate control? Do you feel that you have a comfy margin of control to the point of stall? Do you feel that you can reduce the speed at the rate required, in conjunction with a descent?

If it feels right, it probably is... If flying a bit faster, or a bit slower feels right, do that. If dinner on the date feels better at 7, than 6:30, do that!

Open your mind to the possibility that one day, you'll be flying, and you will loose the airspeed information entirely. You will be happy that you learned to be sensative to the plane.

And please, go easy on the 152... It's there for you, and within your finances when you need it... right? Nothing wrong with a PA-28, but there are little hidden pleasures in the 152 too!

Just in case you think it can't happen.....

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/IMG_0826.jpg

[kevmusic]

These are the speeds I was taught: climb out (flapless) at 70, downwind - however it turns out (80-90), base - reduce to 65, take two stages of flap, trim, then keep it there all the way to the flare.

[glorygal]

I concur with the previous posters. Have yet to graduate from the 152 I learned in but I do have ambitions to try other stuff (finances-permitting).

Climb out 65kt best climb, downwind whatever you get at ~2300rpm, base leg dump flaps below 85 then trim for 65kt the rest of the way down.

[AdamFrisch]

Downwind: 80-90kts.
Abeam the numbers on the downwind, reduce to 1500rpm.
Base: 70
Final: 60-65

Makes a pretty tight and nice circuit.

[Cows getting bigger]

Climbing out - horizon about 2 fingers below the coaming.
Downwind - horizon about two fingers above the top of the coaming
Base (once configured) - horizon about three fingers above the top of the coaming.
Final, horizon just under halfway up the windscreen.

If you prefer to use the ASI:

Climbout - about 65kts
Downwind - whatever fits in with everyone else.
Base, 20deg of flap, 65kts.
final, 30 deg flap 60-65kts.

Alternatively, read the POH before before you next mount the beast.

[CanAmdelta1]

The topic was covered by other's comments and I agree circuit speed varies due to traffic numbers and types of circuit traffic.

I like to see minimum of 2250 -2380 Rpms for a go on takeoff otherwise no go...See POH for exact takeoff rpm numbers.

Climb at Vy best rate 65kts(POH says 67kts) but no 67kt mark on ASI.

At end of crosswind and prior to turning downwind, lower nose and achieve 85-90 kts straight and level, then turn downwind and throttle back to 2300 rpms and maintain 80-90kts and circuit altitude.

On downwind leg do checks... Primer locked, Master on, both mags on, oil temp and pressure in the green, carb heat ON, mixture rich, flaps up, check brakes for pressure and verify fuel selector valve is in the ON position.

On late downwind and prior to turning base throttle back to 1500rpms hold nose up to maintain altitude, and to decrease airspeed. When IAS starts to decreases below ~80kts and falling, put in 20deg flaps follow the airspeed down, turn base and maintain 65kts.

Maintain 65kts and when appropriate turn final. Use throttle for altitude and pitch for airspeed. Put in rest of flaps if you wish. A good target speed over beginning of R/W is 55kts.

This is how it normally works however yesterday I had a Short Skyvan on my tail and I was somewhat faster than the above listed circuit speed as I think he stalls around 70-80kts.

Enjoy your 152:)

[AdamFrisch]

Poor old 152's get a lot of s**t all the time and I feel a bit sorry for them. It's a wonderful little plane that has chaperoned thousands and thousands of pilots to their first solo. Its docile and friendly handling, forgiving of hard landings and generally snubnosed friendly face always brings a smile. Unloved, they soldier on and get the job done. Something to be said for that.

Personally, I actually prefer it's flying characteristics to the 172. The controls are much lighter, so it feels more sprightly. Visibility is better for shorties like myself.

[FlyingStone]

Applying carb heat on downwind seems unreasonable, since the Cessna's manual (and logical thinking) says to apply carb heat only before reducing power or completely closing the throttle. The best thing with all the "landing stuff" (gear, flaps, carb heat, prop, ...) is to wait until you are sure you will actually go to final from downwind (e.g. you don't have to wait for other traffic). I always do the following for serious reduction of power (abeam threshold for ex.): el. fuel pump (mainly for low-wings), carb heat (on Cessnas) and then adjust throttle as neccessary. Simple flow, but it works :)

As for master and ignition switch - how likely it is that their position will change during let's say 20 traffic patterns? OK, if you want to do a magneto check every downwind to be sure, no problem - but to check if switches you normally wouldn't even consider touching during traffic patterns are in the correct position - it seems very odd to me...

[Whopity]

Climbing out - horizon about 2 fingers below the coaming.
Downwind - horizon about two fingers above the top of the coaming
Base (once configured) - horizon about three fingers above the top of the coaming.
Final, horizon just under halfway up the windscreen.
This presumes that all pilots have the same sitting height and the same size fingers; in my experience they don't, so what works for the instructor probably won't work for the student!

[CanAmdelta1]

Flying Stone,

I like to look at the little red MASTER switch to verify it is ON so I know my flaps will work well before final.

When a circuit is 5 min from t/o roll to t/d there is not time on the "final" to do much but fly the approach.:)

The advice stands as asked for by a relatively new "to a Cessna 152" aviator seeking info and speeds in the circuit.:)

[EGBM]

You mean "upgrade" to a C152, surely?

[Cows getting bigger]

Whopity, most students have a constant sitting height. :eek: My point was that I personally think there is too much attention paid to the ASI, especially when flying ccts. The speeds I also gave are pretty much industry standard - maybe pilots should fly the aircraft at these speeds and note the attitude that they should then fly at. :)

[barit1]

I'll second Cows getting bigger. That will make you prepared for Pilot DAR's scenario. Wasps like to make their home in an open pitot tube, but the "automatic" pitot cover is not foolproof.

My father instructed in the AT-6 (Texan/Harvard), and for some of the syllabus, part of the student's ASI was covered so nothing below 90 kt was visible. The student learned the fine art of flying by feel and attitude.

BTW, I found that students starting out in the C172 became spoiled by the relative stability of that plane, and had a bit of challenge adjusting to the lighter 150/152 controls. Students transitioning the other way had no such issues.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I found that students starting out in the C172 became spoiled by the relative stability of that plane, and had a bit of challenge adjusting to the lighter 150/152 controls. Students transitioning the other way had no such issues.
The issue in going 152 -> 172 is that the 172 is less tolerant of being landed too fast, and can float like buggery when a 152 would just land.

[Pilot DAR]

A reliable indication of your airspeed is something which is taken much too for granted. Since April I have four occasions of no, or wrong airspeed information available (ok, one was my fault, I forgot the pitot cover, it was not visible from the cockpit - it is now!)

While doing some short field work in a Grand Caravan, I noticed my check pilot seeming a bit edgy. Once on the ground, she pointed out to me the the co-pilots side airspeed was reading 30 knots too slow. Before she expressed her concern during short final, she looked at mine. 80 knots on final looked just fine to me, 50 knots on her side did not look at all good to her!

Today, while getting airborne off the water, I had no airspeed. Nothing had changed since my landing minutes earlier. It turns out that a splash had entered the static port. It did fix itself enroute.

A Cessna 152, like nearly all similar aircraft, does not have any critical speeds, which you will blunder past. Aside from messed up recoveries from aerobatics, my only speed management concern in a 152 would be gliding it to the ground at too low an airseed. Other than that, if you can't safely fly the aircraft through most maneuvers without looking at the airspeed indicator, I suggest that some more training in simply that would be beneficial. If you're flying dual, have your instructor cover it up completely, and do a few circuits that way. You'll feel much more confident after that, and realize that the speed does not matter to that degree of precision. Devote your attention to maintaining altitude, and watching for traffic more, and watching the airspeed indicator less......

[barit1]

Some 40 years ago - I heard of a brand-new PA28 pranged on a TO attempt. The pilot had no airspeed indication, and drove it off the end of the longish r/w waiting for 60 kt to appear. :uhoh:

[KandiFloss]

Ahhhh ... thanks to all who have posted :)

EGBM ... lol ... that's funny!

Looking forward to taking out a C-152 next Saturday, wx dependant :uhoh: Actually, I have to say I did enjoy my flight in the 152 last Sunday, it made a nice change to the PA-28.

When I first started trainning for my licence in 2006 I nearly threw in the towel as I found the C-152 too twitchy, so it was the more stable PA-28 that kept me going. Last Sunday, despite a gusty x-wind I managed to put all my C-152 demons to bed :D.

[Whopity]

Cows GBWhopity, most students have a constant sitting height.I hope they do, but that does not mean its the same as the instructor. I fly a 152 quite a lot and your figures aren't anywhere near for my sitting height. I regularly hear these references on FI tests and enjoy setting up what has been described just to prove the point that it doesn't work. Your two fingers is probably my little finger to thumb for me with the hand fully stretched!

[Pilot DAR]

I would agree that fingers are probably not the best unit of reference. They are variable in size and application, and most of all, they are not a means or unit of measure specified in any flight manual I've ever seen.

I think that pilots will beneift most from learning where there aircraft is in space, and where it's going to be next, based largely upon their senses. Other than final approach, I'd much rather see an aircraft flying steadly 5 knots off it's ideal speed, than the pilot head in, chasing a target speed with many pitch and power changes, and oblivious to traffic and navigation.

When pilots use unconventional means to make up for simply sensing and flying the aircraft, they could fall short when that means is not even close to applicable in another aircraft type. Remind yourselves that the certification basis for every certified aircraft has in many places in its design requirements "must not require unusual pilot skill or attention". That is intended to assure that aircraft are not out there which are abnormally challenging to fly. Take advantage of this common characteristic when you fly, and let the aircraft tell you what is right for it.

The PA 28 said to have gone through the hedge because the pilot was looking for an airspeed indication, must have spent the last of its time in motion with its nosewheel hard into the runway. That aircraft accelerating throuh 70 knots would really want to be in the air. Fighting it to stay on the ground must have been qute a task!

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think the C150/152 series do not get the respect they deserve. They are easy to fly but surprisingly difficult to fly well. That is to maintain a steady selected airspeed, altitude and coordinated flight in a all conditions requires a light touch and attention from the pilot. The lighter controls also IMO make them more pleasant to fly than the Cessna, Piper 4 seater and the modest engine power means you don't just push the air out of the way you have to fly the wing.

[Cows getting bigger]

I thought we all had '10nm" thumbs. :)

[Pilot DAR]

10nm as in nautical miles, or nanometres?

[FlyFreeWbe]

I take it you remember CAC doing that little change around Gertrude?
ffw

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I take it you remember CAC doing that little change around Gertrude?
Yes.

They kept one of the 152s on for a while (VT IIRC). Pretty well nobody but me ever flew it, so availability was excellent - it was as good as my own private aircraft.

So ... checking it out one day, having not flown it for a couple of weeks, I got my first (and to date only) experience of actually finding water in the fuel. The result, I guessed, of it not having flown at all for a fortnight.

[FlyFreeWbe]

I was still learning at the time [you may remember radio calls for whiskey wankey obviously for G-WY] but I still hold a place in my heart for them. Regards the fuel, didn't CAC leave them unhangered? Or were they put somewhere in leaky 2/10/12 hanger..can't quite remember.
See how you feel over time KandiFloss, explore a little you might like the surprises.

Make sure you close the door.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

65 kts on final in a C152 would feel fast to me, even if it is the book figure! I usually fly 60 kts final in the 172, makes for good short field landings.

edit for EGBM: Especially onto 23 at Derby :ok:

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Make sure you close the door.
Oh yes, shutting the door on a 152.

If you're clever you fail to notice leaving the end of the seatbelt dangling out of the door. This manifests itself as a loud banging noise at about the point at which you reach take-off speed. You can stop and sort it and backtrack and try again, or take off and open the door and sort it in flight, your choice.

This failure mode is actually described in a Cessna training manual. Which I'd read first, so when it happened to me I knew what was going on.

[AfricanEagle]

The C150/C152s are great little aeroplanes.

Easy to fly, hard to fly well, as already said.

Much more fun than the C172 if you are just bimbling or doing circuits and not travelling in earnest.

[Flyingmac]

I was still learning at the time [you may remember radio calls for whiskey wankey obviously for G-WY] but I still hold a place in my heart for them. Regards the fuel, didn't CAC leave them unhangered? Or were they put somewhere in leaky 2/10/12 hanger..can't quite remember.




They were taken round to Hangar 2 every night. That was back in the days of John Blake, Bob Smythe et al. When WY was sold it followed me to Teesside, so after 20 or so years I just had to fly it again for old time's sake. It still flew left wing slightly down.