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Dale Hardale
10th Sep 2010, 02:26
The Australian VB A330 adverts:

Some of us here in DXB are wondering whether this is too good to be true ?? :confused:

Whiskery
10th Sep 2010, 03:53
EK deserve everything they get.

Servo
10th Sep 2010, 03:56
Typical VB management. Let's hire externally (including mates) instead of training up own guys/gals first :hmm:

Any mention of $$$ or just the usual, see how much interest there is and how desperate they are and offer individual contracts...............

ratpoison
10th Sep 2010, 04:16
You took the words right out of my mouth Servo:p

alidad
10th Sep 2010, 04:29
Perhaps the commercial desire to kick the opposition in the guts by poaching crew over-rides other issues. A half decent package would cripple the Jetstar operation

You will surely benefit in the longer term.

Goat Whisperer
10th Sep 2010, 05:02
no line positions, so I don't see this bringing about a "mass exodus" from EK. Even if every position was filled from Dubai, Emirates would barely notice.

if they can introduce 21 E Jets without employing any experienced E Jet drivers, how many external hires are needed to introduce a small A330 fleet?

Keith Myath
10th Sep 2010, 05:04
So what happened to all that talk of pilot unity after the AIPA meeting on the 23rd. Some people need to have a look at themselves.:ugh:

Servo
10th Sep 2010, 05:13
Keith do you mean not applying to VB for the A330 so that the company is encouraged to look in house for experienced crew and to offer decent $$$$ or do you mean we should open the flood gates so anyone that is keen to get home, fly a bigger aircraft (insert self fullfilling desire here thus screwing over others in the industry) apply??

Same tactics that were employed with the 777 and Jetstar want to use for employing cheap overseas labour.

Unity is about reversing the trend of crap T&C's and ensuring jobs for Australian pilots here in Australia!

Servo
10th Sep 2010, 06:54
What else gets me, in the same "ad" VB is actively trying to recruit EXTERNALLY, direct entry Senior Base Pilots, where experience on 737NG, EMB190/170 and A330 is "highly regarded".

What ever happened to internal positions? :*

Jet Man
10th Sep 2010, 07:23
My understanding is that 'it is intended' that most of the positions will be filled by Virgin Blue domestic pilots. Obviously any A330 trainers/checkers that can't be sourced from VB (the group?) will have to be externally recruited.

There is no indication that the A330 terms and conditions will be under the current VB EBA. Can VB hire A330 pilots under individual contracts whilst being employed by VB (ie have B737/Emb on EBA and A330 on individual contracts?)

porch monkey
10th Sep 2010, 07:36
The old saying, "If it looks too good to be true, it usually is". The jobs have also been advertised internally. Remains to be seen whether anyone from internal positions is willing to give it a go. I have spoken to several who are interested, both rated and non rated.
There is no widebody provision in the current EBA. So they can pretty much pay as they like. There has been no word on possible remuneration as yet. "Caveat Emptor"

Servo
10th Sep 2010, 08:45
Exactly PM how do you "apply" for a position when you dont know exactly what your are applying for and conditions to be in place.

Hopefully the conditions will be in line with industry standards and internal applicants are successful. I understand that not ALL positions can/will be filled internally for various reasons, I just dont want that to be used as an excuse to offer poor conditions etc.

virginexcess
10th Sep 2010, 08:48
Dear Colleagues

There is a lot of truth to the opportunities at VB for 330 qualified checkers or trainers. This will be a one off opportunity to leave the sandpit and come home on about half the take home pay you get in the desert.

Make no mistake about it, there will not be a second bite at this. As was the case with VA, if you do not come in the first group of DEC's, there will not be another opportunity. After the initial start up phase, it seems likely that all future 330 pilots will be sourced internally, as was the case with the 777.

What I would like to impress upon anyone considering this opportunity is, don't make the same mistake the 777 drivers did. That mistake was not talking to the VB pilots, or more specifically the AFAP (the only union at the time) before accepting their contracts. The end result of that is the appalling contract VA 777 drivers now have.

It is widely accepted amongst the pilot group and the unions that DEC's are a necessity to introduce the 330, so there should be no animosity toward any DEC's who choose to have a crack at the positions. In fact, on the contrary, current pilots at both VB and VA have vested interest in doing whatever they can to ensure incoming DEC's get paid as much as possible. Any new benchmark salaries will probably have a flow on effect to VB and VA pilots.

VA pilots are currently in EBA talks, and VB pilots will be commencing EBA talks in the coming 12 months, so the A330 conditions are of utmost relevance.

At present, the likely strategy the company will employ is to try and get 330 DEC's to accept conditions similar to the VA 777 pilots. If they can do this, they will then use that as a benchmark to attack VB pilots conditions at the next EBA, and VA pilots will be able to kiss any improved conditions good bye.

All of the ex EK 777 pilots are members of VIPA, and there are probably many familiar names amongst the AFAP members. Do yourselves and all other pilots a favour and get in touch with someone in either of the unions before you accept any offers.

I cannot overstate how crucial this will be. Anyone who accepts conditions that are less than current VB conditions will most likely be loudly and publicly condemned, and is destined to have a fairly miserable time at work.

Anyone who does the harder thing and gets in contact with current VB or VA pilots and does their bit to ensure the conditions here are not further eroded will be welcomed into the fold.

In closing, I would not expect anyone to fall on their sword and throw away the opportunity to return to Oz, just on principle. The message i am trying to convey is that there is a good bunch of blokes back here who understand that we need the experience to kick off the A330, but we want to do whatever can be done to ensure that DEC's are not used as a weapon to further erode conditions in OZ.

Welcome to VIPA (http://www.vipa.asn.au/)
Australian Federation of Air Pilots (http://www.afap.org.au/html/s01_home/home.asp)

Mr. Hat
10th Sep 2010, 08:49
Bad time to cheese 600 73 drivers off. Might find a few problems at EBA time.

Recommend employing internally on a commensurate seat to dollars package to avoid an absolute disaster at EBA/new brand launch time.

Don't fall into the silly Swift Godfrey act of offering the lowest conditions in the world and filling 98% of positions with externals.

slice
10th Sep 2010, 10:27
Flight Crew - Domestic | A330 Technical Pilots - SEP10

Expertise

SKILLS, EXPERIENCE & QUALIFICATIONS


Must Have:

*
A tertiary qualification in a technical discipline
*
A330/A340 Type Rating
*
Command M/E Instrument Rating
*
The ability to "think outside the square"
*
A working knowledge of the MS Office suite of applications
*
The ability to successfully work as part of a team in a high pressure, time critical environment
*
Jet Experience in High Capacity RPT Operation
*
International RPT/Charter or Ferry Operations
*
The ability to write manuals of a policy and technical nature
*
Knowledge of and experience in the Australian regulatory environment
*
Experience with the approval of MEL/CDLs, AFMs and aircraft certification generally

Great to Have:

* Tertiary qualifications in Management disciplines
* Knowledge of Boeing systems, documentation and software
* Simulator Evaluation Qualification
* Knowledge of and experience in the New Zealand regulatory environment
* Previous flight operations management experience
* Experience with the qualification of Full Flight Simulators

My bolding. 330 doing regional international flying out of Aus on sukky PB T & Cs.:\

Led Zeppelin
10th Sep 2010, 11:13
There are numerous ex EK A330/340 drivers (with Jetstar and Tiger) already in OZ who may look at this - but I'd be a bit concerned as to the T & C's until someone comes up with actual dollar numbers.:(

AerocatS2A
10th Sep 2010, 12:10
Exactly PM how do you "apply" for a position when you dont know exactly what your are applying for and conditions to be in place.
I suspect what you would do is apply for the position then if they offer it to you have a look at the contract and decide whether or not you want to sign on the dotted line. If you don't like the conditions, don't sign. I know, pure genius! :ugh:

flamingmoe
10th Sep 2010, 12:39
Well spotted slice:yuk:

VBPCGUY
10th Sep 2010, 12:54
Typical VB management. Let's hire externally (including mates) instead of training up own guys/gals first http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

According to what Ive read they are only seeking internal applicants at this stage.

Al E. Vator
10th Sep 2010, 19:59
This ad rings alarm bells of caution.

Unknown Terms and Conditions?

The world is standing at the precipice of a crippling pilot shortage (for qualified, experienced pilots).

The next year, two years will inevitably see many more jobs such as these.

VB alone will expand considerably - more than internal crewing can allow. JQ are getting what, 15 plus 787's etc? - so they will need to better the deal for current pilots and to employ experienced Australian-trained/licenced pilots. Tiger will really have to get its act together if it plans to survive. Overseas airlines are desperate. EK alone needs 750 pilots in 18m just for new orders, not even to replace pilots leaving for greener pastures. Then there's Ethihad, Qatar, Korean, Air China and many new freight airlines desperate for rated/non-rated guys and this is the tip of the iceberg - it has soaked-up what was a pool of qualified pilots.

Already in Oz there are better alternatives for A330 pilots (e: o/s airline basing in Australia, A$15k/m+ after tax, 16-18 days/m off).

In the initial stages of the V Australia 777 operation Captains were to get $215k (pre tax) but when flooded with applicants this dropped to I think $175k/yr - for a Boeing 777 Captain:rolleyes:because they could.

This ad implies exactly the same thing will happen - my advice would be proceed with real caution.

At last the worm is turning for professional pilots, there is increasingly no need to accept second best.

virtual_dude
11th Sep 2010, 02:43
Be very very careful guys.

Let me pose a very real possibility to you.


You leave a well paid job to come home to fly the 330 in OZ
VB's 330's are a stop gap until 787's are available which is rumoured to be the case
The 330's are sent back and you find your self as an F/O on the Ejet on 100k per year

Grey Nomad
11th Sep 2010, 03:18
Why would any sane person leave a secure job to join an organisation which may not be around in 2 years. The only upside it will probably be on better conditions than the woeful ones that the VA crews are enduring ( self induced mind you ). Do yourself a favour and block out any nostalgic thoughts of returning home.It isn't that good and definately not worth giving up a well paying long term job.

porch monkey
11th Sep 2010, 09:06
Servo, I agree, but that's what the VA guys did.......Listen to the sqealing now.
VBPCGUY, You don't advertise internally via The Australian.

Grey Nomad, Where do you get 2 years from?

Grey Nomad
11th Sep 2010, 11:30
Just my best guess really. With VA bleeding the cash reserves and with no real prospect for a change in their circumstances,the bottom line doesn't look too good.VB have the might of QF, J* and Tiger continually gnawing away at their market share. Most of the remaining money in the bank will be consumed setting up the 330's and the introduction of the new brand. A new business class including uniforms,lounges,livery will not come cheap. The death knell will come when the Labor government approves SQ to fly across the pacific.VB may very well survive,although I believe in a much smaller version with PB style pay and conditions. Don't get me wrong I think JB had little choice than proceed
on his present path, unfortunately their are far too many forces acting which are beyond his control.

chockchucker
11th Sep 2010, 12:35
Does anybody else see any strange parallels between John Borghetti with Virgin Blue and another ex senior QF manager (Gary Toomey with Ansett) who missed out on the top job about 10 years ago?


Both seem to have walked out of QF and into complete disasters at the major competing carrier.


Certainly hope Borghetti and Virgin don't go the same way as Toomey and Ansett.....

halas
11th Sep 2010, 13:01
Don't forget that Toomey had an accomplice in Jensen.

Good luck to all in the future of VB et al.

halas

74world
11th Sep 2010, 20:34
G'day,

Any of you guys know when VB will start recruiting DEC on the 330?????

AirborneSoon
11th Sep 2010, 22:02
The rife negativity never ceases to amaze me here. When BG was at the helm VB wasn't going to last two years because of....yada, yada, yada. Two years passed and now JB is at the helm and it's not going to last two years...:rolleyes:

The only parallels I see are the people on here making the same negative comments over and over again and being proven wrong. JB is not Toomey and VB is not Ansett, moreover 10yrs have come and gone inbetween and there is now a different aviation environment than there once was. :bored:

But of course the armchair experts here would know better than an airline manager how to run an airline. :oh: I wonder why then they are armchair experts and not in fact in charge of an airline? :mad:

superG3
11th Sep 2010, 22:27
virtual_dude, I agree but ejet FO on 100k, try about 25-30k less, thats the current :*

grrowler
11th Sep 2010, 23:26
Not quite, current is 81-96K, with allowances you might scrape 100...

OpsNormal
11th Sep 2010, 23:43
Did any of you ever expect anything better from the sort of company that has the culture to expect interview candidates continue their interview/sim and be at the top of their game while their wife has just gone into early labour?

Serious ameteurism, especially the "so called" ML Training Captain.:=

At least your HR had the balls to apologise for his actions, well after the incident in May....

rescue 1
12th Sep 2010, 00:17
Let's not forget only 2 aircraft - total crew required 20, maybe 24 tops!

10 captains - 2 checkers, maybe 3 trainers, leaves 5 commands for the internals.

kimir
12th Sep 2010, 01:13
Ops Norm, sorry to hear that sort of thing happened. I don't always agree with the way things are run but I have always found them accommodating when it comes to personal issues / sick family etc. Back to the thread.... Outsiders, I would consult the V.B. unions prior to accepting anything. It would be a sad day to see the terms and conditions go the way of the 777 where triple 7 skippers are on less than the 73. Even if you are financially secure think of the industry as a whole and your future colleagues. By all means accept a job if it is offered but allow a decent pay scale to be negotiated first.

relax737
12th Sep 2010, 02:20
"The world is standing at the precipice of a crippling pilot shortage (for qualified, experienced pilots)".

And so it has been for more than thirty years. I started flying back in the 70's, and that was the pitch being used then. I'm surprised that supposedly intelligent people are still falling for the line in 2010!!

I clearly remember when people like the long departed Kaptin M, were advocating boycotting of Jetstar to get the salaries increased. Is that ******** living in a fantasy world? Is any pilot living in a fantasy world?? The sooner you get it through your apparently thick skulls that management would prefer to park aircraft than to pay pilots more, the sooner you will be living in the current industrial world.

Trying to put the frighteners into EK (and other companies') pilots so that they won't come here and take 'our' jobs is worse than sticking your heads in the sand; it's sticking your heads up your butts.

Airline managements have no qualms about trying to reduce pilots' incomes below that of base grade clerks. Get that, and don't forget it. If you want to continue flying, you either accept it or be continually discontented. You can try to change it, but more often than not you'll be disappointed and frustrated.

There is no shortage of wannabe pilots. The airlines just promote whoever they have available and so far they've got away with it. When they no longer get away with it, then, and only then, will they adopt a different strategy.

I wish you luck in your endeavours

Dehavillanddriver
12th Sep 2010, 03:02
Ops normal,

One of the failings of flight ops management is their lack of psychic ability.

If you don't tell the right people then they can't do anything about it, I do not believe that any of the vb managers, had they known the circumstances, would expect anyone to continue with the interview/sim.

CaptainSouth
12th Sep 2010, 03:24
Airbornesoon..I agree with you regards the continual negativity expressed on this website and can't comment on the future of VB..BUT...I think the regard with which airline management are held in Australia is misplaced.
We as a group have chosen to pursue a career in aviation and I assume most of the posters here are employed by an airline, we have reached the top job in our chosen career. JB and BG and Darth chose management as their career, they have reached the top, but it doesn't make them right.The lack of 777 in QF colours stands out from my side, also the failed APA bid for QF.
BG did agreat job setting up his thing, but maybe he lost sight of the LCC model?? I don't know or wish to commebt, but to dismiss posters on this site because they are not airline managers is to devalue their opinions and input. Just as being a pilot is not rocket science, as with airline managing. Once again from a QF/JQ point of view, all you need to be able to do is cut costs, and seemingly pay no attention to increasing revenue.
Time for a revolution where nerds who hang out in offices as accountants and lawyers and run airlines were replaced with people that actually know what an airline is.I can still remembre when QF was run by a pilot!!
Godfrey Borghetti Joyce et al...they are not all knowing gods and I wish the public and press would wake up to the modern day scam that is management.

Oakape
12th Sep 2010, 06:32
I know I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I vaguely remember reading that the reason VB got away with paying the E-170/190 drivers less than the B737 drivers in the current EBA, was because they agreed to paying more for a larger type.

If so, does that mean that there is already provision for more pay for the A330? Unless that was specifically for the B777 & by using another type (A330) they get around that provision, just as they got around it with the B777 by forming a new company.

GAFA
12th Sep 2010, 08:41
Current EBA only has B737 and Embraer, adding another type will require a change.

There no need to hire any external pilots full time at all. Look at the Ejet, all done in house with the help of Embraer pilots and done on time with no safety issues. Look at QF when they introduced the A330, done in house with the help of Airbus, some goes for the A380. There are heaps of internal pilots who could fill any of the advertised positions. If DJ approached Airbus, I'm sure they would provide pilots (at a cost) for the start up period.

Have a look at Rishworth, PARC etc they are always adverting for trainers and checkies on short term contracts (ie 3 months) to help airlines around the world when they introduce a new type. If DJ can't get help from Airbus then they should look at using one of these contract companies, that way, once the start phase is over the jobs go to current DJ pilots.

This issue of employing direct entry positions may have been avoided if the pilot group stuck together 10 months ago when the company employed the 2 DEC onto the Ejet. Every single FO, both Ejet and 737 should have lodged a Grievance against the company, however in the end only about 40 did and then after one or two phone calls from managment, most withdrew and only 6 pilots were willing to stick with it and take the company to court (case still pending).

So here we are 10 months done the track and the company is pushing the issue again and they know that the pilot group is not strong enough to put up a fight:ugh:

relax737
12th Sep 2010, 12:01
Kerry Packer had a favourite expression. It was:

He who has the gold makes the rules.

That's something we, as employees, should never forget. I'm not suggesting that the boss is always, or even often, right, but he's the one who has risked capital to build a business.

When the pilots' association has sufficient funds to buy a couple of aircraft and offer jobs at great pay rates, then you have an alternative. Until then you can do whatever you want to improve conditions, but frequently you will be disillusioned.

You cannot rely on pilots from other companies, overseas, or the moon, to boycott in an attempt to improve conditions.

I'm sorry that I,nearing retirement, have to be the one to give a reality check. I've been through the mill, and know that this is the new order in industrial relations.......... unfortunately.

SKYCAMEL
12th Sep 2010, 12:13
GAFA,

Those 2 DEC's on the E -jet have not flown it since their contracts ended in July.

Gnadenburg
12th Sep 2010, 22:21
relax737

Not many people seem to be paying attention to your posts. I am. And I disagree with your defeatist attitude.

I feel sorry for you having to retire with such sad experiences.

When successful, being involved in a collective campaign to improve your conditions of service is a very rewarding experience for any professional. I have been involved in some great wins over the years including pay rises of 25%.

Like you, I can retire too thanks to this great industry. But I am 40. My advice to other pilots is put up a clever fight. Don't capitulate as you suggest.

AnQrKa
13th Sep 2010, 03:41
Gnads,

You dont think that payrise was due to pilots leaving as apposed to CC?

A. Le Rhone
13th Sep 2010, 07:39
Gnads I totally agree with you. - relax 737 you're defeatist posts also don't recognise history.

Sir, you're a bit too young to remember the early 1950's when airlines took F/O's with less than 500 hours because there just weren't pilots around. You won't remember the hard but worthy battles that newly formed unions waged that radically improved pilots working lives - no more multiple pilots being forced to share boarding house rooms on overnights and abysmal flight-time limitation issues.

You also won't recall the early sixties when even TAA and Ansett had to set up cadet schemes and pay for training in order to fill pilot seats. You clearly have forgotten even recent history where one airline initially required interviewees to pay for sim checks etc until they too were desperate for pilots. Before the GFC my airline had to hire anybody with a heartbeat if they had a licence.

And 737, to convert your defeatest interpretation of Packers' quote - he who has the gold wins - we have the gold!

There are not enough qualified and experienced pilots globally to fill the front seats of airliners that are on order. And no, no matter how dumb a manager may be (or how thick you suggest us as pilots skulls are) he is not going to allow a $100million, $200m or $300m aircraft to sit idle when by paying a pilot an extra $50k/yr that asset would be fully utilised. You're bluntness is again incorrect. Shareholders do not allow such fiscal irresponsibility.

Now Australia has always had a surplus of pilots and many of us have been overseas. Historically there were limitations by having only 3 main airlines - all growing slowly. Now there are 4+ operators all aggressively looking at expansion. This is happening at a time when Commercial pilot licence issuing is at an all time low and the military supply has basically evaporated. Aussie pilots are also routinely looking abroad for employment when this was never the norm 10+ years ago.

Pure simple basic economics dictates that as a result we have the gold. This is Economics 101 and outweighs any perceived, drama-queen 'new order' in industrial relations. Nothing has changed since Keynes' day; Lots of demand + limited supply = higher salaries.

If we stick together and get what we want then our fortunes are set. For example, on recruitment websites, if there is an expected salary bracket, put in the Qantas 747 or A330 Captain salary as a yardstick (A$350) or whatever your overseas equivalent is (Cathay $500k). Don't just put in a low salary so you think you will be more attractive, particularly if you are not fussed about getting the job in the first place. Perhaps the more people who put in these globally realistic and higher salaries the better for everybody as recruiters are made aware of global reality.

But by far the worst, historically inaccurate and most defeatist approach to take would be the relax 737 position. Sir before you retire in apparent mysery perhaps you might want to take time to inspire those younger than you rather than trying to force them to accept what is definitely not an industrial inevitability.

KRUSTY 34
13th Sep 2010, 08:04
And that's why Buchanan and his ilk are trying to lock the young, the impressionable, and the downright shortsighted, into the [email protected] deals now on offer!

psycho joe
13th Sep 2010, 08:32
There are not enough qualified and experienced pilots globally to fill the front seats of airliners that are on order.

That may be true, however there are more expats & other ICAO qualified airline pilots in the world willing to come to the southern land, than demand here could ever require. :hmm:

Sir, you're a bit too young to remember the early 1950's when airlines took F/O's with less than 500 hours because there just weren't pilots around.

Lots of demand + limited supply = higher salaries.

By your own words. Lots of demand + limited supply = LOWER ENTRY REQUIREMENTS.

LOWER ENTRY REQUIREMENTS = LOWER SALARY. :hmm:

Supply & demand is a fickle mistress. Watch as airline operators around the world start to lobby regulators & manufacturers to certify A320's & other narrow bodies, as single pilot aircraft. :(

7378FE
13th Sep 2010, 08:37
There are a lot of kids out there, who would give thier left nut to fly RPT 737/320/777/340 and they will, they couldn't care less about some old guy who used to fly a Connie.

Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.

These days you don't need 4 or 5 people on the flight deck to get the aircraft to go where you want it to go.

If you are at an age where you can't operate a computer, then you really shouldn't be operating an airplane.

If Australia hasn't got enough local pilots, then we will get them from elsewhere.

Cheers

Capt Kremin
13th Sep 2010, 09:21
The GFC stopped the imminent pilot shortage from happening. Dixon himself acknowledged that. It will happen, I have not the slightest doubt about that. The demographics are inescapable.

What will also happen is that airlines will try every trick in the book to avoid bowing to supply and demand. Maybe it is happening already. Would Jetstar have implemented their cadet scheme if the situation was otherwise?

waren9
13th Sep 2010, 09:31
Hard to say. Happy coincidence perhaps?

JQ are doing the cadet thing because it fills a crew seat more cheaply than it has been doing up till now. Make no mistake about that.

A business decision, pure and simple.

Mr. Hat
13th Sep 2010, 10:20
Shortage will never happen. Jetstar will throw 30k per annum to some indian kid and train he/she up and at 200 hours into the right seat.

Just have to wait for the first hull loss for it to change.

Or for the J* guys to fight a bloody good fight.

The The
13th Sep 2010, 10:54
There are a lot of kids out there, who would give thier left nut to fly RPT 737/320/777/340 and they will, they couldn't care less about some old guy who used to fly a Connie.

Parents will stump up the equivelent of HECS to get them a type rating.

Don't think so! As a parent of 2 kids approaching and in the career defining years, I can tell you "piloting" is NOT on very many kids radar these days. Of all the friends, associates, career days/evenings I have heard about and attended, there has never been anyone of the next gen considering a pilot career. Lots of would-be mining engineers, business careers, IT etc, etc but not one mention of flying or even aviation. Sad, but true!

As for parents willing to stump up $100k plus, again, not likely. Any parent with that kind of cash to throw around has certainly got a few smarts about them. Are they going to splash that kind of cash for a career paying peanuts or see their kids banished overseas? There may be a few, but not many.

The way things are headed, I do see a critical shortage of pilots in this country, but sadly, the positions will likely be filled by low cost imports.

AirborneSoon
13th Sep 2010, 10:59
Fellas if you are waiting on lady luck (aka market forces) to save you, you'll be waiting a very long time. The world and jobs are global now. The last time there was a skilled worker shortage in my industry jobs got shipped offshore to India faster than you could blink rather than affecting wages here.

I think the person up-thread who said that demand to work in the land down under will outstrip available positions has foresight. Your lack of a real union and equal lack of any real point to unions these days is the problem. The number of aircraft in the sky cannot expand indefinately, there's a little thing called nowhere to park them at airports which limits that.

galdian
13th Sep 2010, 11:42
And it will take a lot more than 1 hull loss to change anything.

The spindoctors will be in place to ensure the first few hull losses will be about anything, and everything other than qualifications, training and ability.

And Murphy may contribute - if anything ever DOES go wrong there is a chance that it's just shit happening ....and regardless of who was up front the end result would have been the same.

Interesting that there are more people commenting that (some) would say are negative and defeatist, but probably just realise the world, business and economies have changed....and there's no going back to the good old days.

In that context there are those who adapt - or there are dinosaurs.

And "pilot unity"??? Up there with communism: great concept, just doesn't f**king work!

Cheers:ok:
galdian

mattyj
13th Sep 2010, 20:57
And why are the "cadets from the subcontinent" so easy? Surely if we can see that a qualification as a software engineer, or as a mine surveyor or something will earn us 10 times the income then they can too?

If it sucks to be a pilot for Australians (and Kiwis) then it sucks for other nationalities too in comparison to other industries they could target!

A. Le Rhone
13th Sep 2010, 21:10
Jeez what a bunch of timid, fearful naysayers. I'm all for accepting reality as long as we know what reality is....

The situation:
There is an assumption that masses of Indian labour will come to do the work that otherwise an Aussie would do. This assumes that there are Indian pilots to do it! But there aren't. Even the Indian carriers themselves are having to advertise overseas and employ expatriate captains. The same is true of China and Korea.

Few kids want to take up aviation as a career (why would they with all the expense and crap returns) and CPL issues are as a result at a post-war low. The military supply has all but evaporated and foreign pilots are desperately required in their own countries. Baby-boomers are nearing retirement and all of this whilst globally airlines have unprecedented numbers of aircraft on order.

If my statements aren't sufficiently convincing then have a look at the Boeing forecasts. They (and others) are extremely concerned at the looming critical shortage of qualified pilots, yet nothing is being done to remedy this situation. Something like 49,000 professional pilots are needed each year for the next 25 years but the training just isn't being done.

And no, as the Colgan/US Congress case just proved, you can't continuously drop experience requirements to fill pilot seats.

Reality:
The only people who can stuff up this great opportunity we now have to improve our salaries, terms and conditions is us.

So why this "history is against us, we're doomed to slide down
an inevitable path to poverty" mentality. This is not acceptance of reality it is pathetic defeatism.

How about grasping a fantastic opportunity by the balls and collectively making the most of it. Most of us have had to fight like buggery to get all of the qualifications and pass all of the theory tests and exams and sim rides and interviews and recurrent check that it proves we at least have some ability to rise to a challenge.

Gnadenburg
13th Sep 2010, 21:19
Gnads,

You dont think that payrise was due to pilots leaving as apposed to CC?

Attrition was a major contributor of course. Which is why I have always argued to never make yourself easy to replace, by paying for training, or dumbing down of standards ( classic low cost models ).

The contact compliance campaign was long and arduous. But it worked so well that when a rescue package was put in place it was called "Back on Board". Which lasted a few minutes until the GFC arrived.

The littlest of things. Pilots asking for their log books to be stamped, even though they had no intentions of leaving, had managers unsure of attrition. Even pprune had been used as an effective industrial tool- deterring new arrivals and having senior managers answerable for mismanaging some aspects of the campaign I'd prefer not to mention.

We were a big hit with the media too. As far away as Time magazine.

Anyway. Good luck to the VB pilots. I actually hope a bunch my colleagues take the job and aid another payrise for me. :)

breakfastburrito
13th Sep 2010, 21:34
I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees
widely attributed to Emiliano Zapata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano_Zapata)

Amen to A. Le Rhone & Gnadenburg

Captain Dart
13th Sep 2010, 22:11
Our small aviation museum in regional Australia which operates a couple of military trainers, is literally next door to a TAFE college. With the aircraft in their bright air force training colours operating or parked in the sun outside, the number of kids who have come up to the fence, let alone walked through the always-open gate, to have a look, ask questions or talk to the pilot has been...ZERO.

The post-WW 2 generation were probably the most 'air minded' (to use a wonderful description from the 1930's) ever, it seemed every second kid wanted to be a pilot. However, the aging of immediate relations who could tell the young ones stories of navigating Lancasters and flying Beaufighters, the decline in popularity of the Airfix kit coinciding with the rise of computers and their associated games, the loss of 'glamour' associated with being an airline pilot (QANTAS pilots are 'tech crew' and VB pilots wear ghastly brown uniforms), I think will lead to an unprecedented shortage of pilots.

Until fuel gets very very expensive...

KRUSTY 34
13th Sep 2010, 22:41
'Dart, 'Le Rhone, you guys are echoing the sentiments I have been banging on about for ages. The worm will turn, we need patiance and a fair level of strategic thought.

Airline managers know what's on the horizon. The GFC gave them a reprieve a few years ago, but they are now sh!tting themselves with the realisation of the numbers involved. That's why we are seeing a rush to lock pilots into substandard deals.

It's a concept built on sand however, and just goes to prove how little grasp of the situation these so called managers have. The first airline to admit to the inevitable truth will win as far as the diminishing pool of experienced pilots go. there will be scramble for what's left and significant flight cancellations will result. Will any of these Bozos take responsibility for that? Not a chance, they will do what they have always done, spin and B.S.

Mr. Hat
14th Sep 2010, 00:27
Krusty, they are just going to import 200 hour kids from impoverished countries to solve the problem. J* will kick it off the rest will follow. There wont be a shortage.

Back to the 330..

A. Le Rhone
14th Sep 2010, 01:07
OK Hat so you just lie down like a a simpering dog, snivelling after crumbs and licking the feet of your masters - the future as cowering lapdogs inevitable.

What hope is there with such resigned defeatism?

This defeatism is not only embarrassingly wimpy its (finally) unrealistic. For the first time in ages we are empowered by circumstance.

No less than the US Congress has prevented your 'import 200 hour kids from impoverished countries' option because of the results (Colgan crash: and they weren't poorly trained imports, they were inexperienced locals).

J* will try to do this (or variations thereof) but with US Congress ratifying what we all know (low-hour, poorly trained pilots are a death-wish) we have a powerful precedent with which to lobby the Government and the Media.

But without the cohones to take on this battle in the first place (the defeatist resignation exhibited here) we may as well forget any damn improvements.

AirborneSoon
14th Sep 2010, 01:23
There is an aspect here that hasn't been recognised which limits the power of pilots even as a group.

Market forces dictate that wages are only high where the barriers to entry are high. In the past the barrier to entry has quite obviously been hours on aircraft type. Airlines have a power here that pilots do not.

They can lower the barriers to entry in two ways...

1. Lowering their hiring standards to the lowest levels allowed by regulation. Offshoring bases to more favourably regulated environments.
2. Provide easier access to training to meet the standard.

Both of which are now rearing their heads. What power does a pilot or even a pilot group have to influence the barriers to entry? None. If a pilot shortage ever does occur it will be short lived and airline management have the foresight to stem this off with their cadet schemes. When you make it easier for a newbie to enter the profession you lower the cost of the employee. In the 70's no such easy access to training existed and that is the fundamental difference in the power dynamic between then and now.

Your only real hope is not through wishing and hoping other pilots don't ruin it for you, but to lobby the regulators to keep the standards required high. Forget industrial action and some vain hope in a pilot shortage. Create a group and hire lawyers to protect your interests through law and protecting the public interest. It is the way of the world now.

patienceboy
14th Sep 2010, 01:39
I’m with Mr Hat.

Almost every Airline now has a ‘Cadetship’ or some other scheme which allows them to hire bare CPL holders. This was a very deliberate move after Airlines were given a small taste of what a shortage might mean for them three years ago. If there ever was a severe shortage, Jetstar et al probably would cover the full non ‘HEXable’ portion of their new cadetship well before voluntarily improving conditions for all.

The trend can be reversed, but it will take brains, resources and persistence. Any shortage should just be a bonus.

J* will try to do this (or variations thereof) but with US Congress ratifying what we all know (low-hour, poorly trained pilots are a death-wish) we have a powerful precedent with which to lobby the Government and the Media.

Well said.

relax737
14th Sep 2010, 01:52
Gnadenburg and LeRhone, you're talking of a totally different industrial climate. Those days are gone and they went in '89. Let's not enter into a lengthy discourse on that issue though.

Look how successful that campaign was!! And remember, that was in the old industrial climate where the union won most disputes.

I admire you for soldiering on, but I reckon you're pi$$ing into a 40 knot northerly on R34 Melbourne.

Re Jetstar, I know how they operate. In February I did a trip MEL-BGK, 2 crew operation, crew had signed on, 5 hours late, crew sitting in the pax terminal the whole time, no supplementary crew, result was 16+ hours tour of duty. I submitted a confidential report, and it looks as though it's been swept under the carpet. Despite my efforts to find a result I'm thwarted at every turn. The regulator doesn't care!!! Don't think you can turn to the government or regulator because they don'e care. Let me say that again, THEY DON'T CARE!!! More plainly, they don't give a ****!!!

You can't rely on the 'worldwide desperate shortage of experienced crews' because that has been on for more than 30 years, or so we've been told. I know a guy flying for Rex who is relying on that shortage for VB and Jetstar to provide endorsements at no cost, and he's been waiting since VB started operations 10 years ago. It won't happen because there is not a shortage of people wanting to have a go at any salary. It has always been so and always will be so.

Krusty 34, Rex has been cancelling flights for the past couple of years because of a shortage of crews. Their share price plummeted, but will they pay more to retain pilots??? NO!! Once they'increase salaries, those increases are protected by 'savings clauses' in contracts. The companies are stuck with them. They would prefer to rely on the cycle of a few too many and then a few too short. It has always been like this and always will be.
Airlines themselves have always been a few over the top or a few short.

When Australian airlines can't find enough recruits locally they will go to third world countries. Incidentally I've flown with Indian pilots, and they have been some of the best I've come across. The old line that because somebody isn't white they couldn't possibly fly an aircraft is long gone I'm afraid to say. Good training overcomes most issues, and Australia has good training. Re the white pilot issue, most American pilots are white, and I've seen an abominable standard amongst them. Shoots that argument down.

There will be no return to 'the good old days', and that isn't just for aviation.

A. Le Rhone
14th Sep 2010, 06:11
737 - misery, misery, misery....

Who said anything about 1989? Who ever said there was a pilot shortage for the past 30 years? I sure as hell haven't seen it (until 3 years ago and now). Who said anything about white people being better than others?

As I mentioned perhaps before you retire you might like to leave a legacy of inspiring your young colleagues rather than perpetuating your own misery. At this time of opportunity, encouragement to better the lot of Professional Pilots is what is required.

PS: Just a timely article for you from todays' Flight International.

SOURCE:Flight International
Pilot error behind Air India Express 737 crash, say reports
By Ghim-Lay Yeo


Pilot error has emerged as the likely cause of an Air India Express Boeing 737-800 crash on 22 May in southern India, say reports.
Investigators told an official court of inquiry that the aircraft's pilot was on the wrong flightpath and had ignored his co-pilot, who told him to execute a go-around, say the reports.
An official with the court of inquiry declined to comment on the reports when contacted.
In the incident, the aircraft crashed and burst into flames at Mangalore International airport in the southern state of Karnataka after it overshot the runway while landing. Only eight of the 160 passengers and crew members on board survived the crash. Both pilots died in the incident.

A. Le Rhone
14th Sep 2010, 06:14
PS: And the friggin' good old days weren't any good until PILOTS stepped-in and took control of their fortunes rather than only moaning incessantly about how bad things are.

7378FE
14th Sep 2010, 07:00
Investigators told an official court of inquiry that the aircraft's pilot was on the wrong flightpath and had ignored his co-pilot, who told him to execute a go-around, say the reports.


Hmm.. the Captain who obviously knew what he was doing, ignored his junior flight deck member who was aware of the situation.

The "kid with 200hrs" would have saved 152 lives, but the Captain ended them. :{

relax737
14th Sep 2010, 07:36
Le Rhone, The old pilot shortage chestnut has been around since I started flying, and is constantly being mentioned by anybody who wants to convince themselves that it exists.

Who mentioned '89?? I did in the context of what a disaster it was, so I hope you plan your industrial action somewhat better than that was planned.

The good old days aren't so good for those 1000+ pilots who found themselves working overseas, some in god forsaken places for not much money, flying junk aircraft and compromising standards to earn an income as a result of an ill conceived and executed action back in '89. Was that the 'taking control' of which you speak???

You mentioned the solution in an earlier post. Indian pilots. Why would they come to Australia?? Because they will be paid a LOT MORE than in their own country, but still a LOT LESS than Australian companies are currently paying. That's a simple exercise in economics.

Mr Hat, post # 62, you are quite right.

If you haven't heard the arrogant line that Asian, African, South American, etc., pilots aren't nearly as good as Australian, New Zealand, American, British, etc., then I seriously doubt that you've been flying commercially or ever walked into a crew room.

I haven't read the FI article but will do so. Without having read it, I'll make the assumption that it will be like the head of the Real Estate Institute talking up the market after the most dismal Saturday auction clearance in decades. Talk is cheap.

I do wish you luck in your campaign, and nothing would please me more than to see Jetstar and Virgin paying 250K+ for a Captain, but I don't see it happening.

You obviously missed what I said about Rex parking aircraft rather than paying more to retain experienced crew. Managements don't think like pilots.

Good point 787FE. In many/most cases, the young inexperienced FO is a very switched on individual, still a lot to learn, but alert, eager to please, sharp as a tack, and champing at the bit for promotion.

There's something about being the eternal pessimist; I'm never disappointed, and just occasionally, ever so occasionally, I will be pleasantly surprised. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I thought the 'this' underlined was a link, but not so. The text appears in your post. What more can I say than 787FE. The experienced Captain killed 152!! The inexperienced FO called for a go around which would have saved 152. You didn't think that through before you posted!!

mention1
14th Sep 2010, 07:38
The positions will be filled internally. The newspaper ad is only if the positions can't be filled. I heard there have been approx 140 expressions of interest already.

Also have heard rumours of 8 aircraft.

Good luck

relax737
14th Sep 2010, 07:56
That's good news mention1, but why would they advertise before receiving expressions of interest internally???

It doesn't seem that not mentioning T&C's has dissuaded many with 140 expressions of interest. Those people expressing interest could be seen to be selling you down the drain then.

This is perfect example of market forces and the lack of 'pilot unity' that we see mentioned here so often. The company will get their starters even at $120K pa if that's what they offer because pilots want to fly bigger and shinier.

I recall when I started flying and an instructor said something like: It doesn't matter what you're flying, there's always something bigger and newer that you'll lust after. It's true.

Capt Baldman
14th Sep 2010, 10:28
It's an "Expression of Interest"...Not an "I accept the job"...all it is saying is.."Yes, I'm interested"...nothing more....
If the T&C's are crap, then you can always say.."No Thanks"...

If they get NO "Expression's of Interest", then the Company would have every right to employ outside....."We had too, nobody internally was interested"...

t_cas
14th Sep 2010, 11:16
Not quite correct baldy.

If the company was serious. The "proposed" Conditions could have been advertised and internal "bids" based on those minimums would have been ligitimate.

Mr. Hat
14th Sep 2010, 11:37
ALR definitely not fight the fight I say. First of all the problem you have is that the AFAP don't support the cause even remotely. The latest I hear is that J* are throwing the words "Command Upgrade" around. This might be enough to derail the whole thing.

Command Upgrade= militant FO becomes company man overnight.

Gnadenburg
14th Sep 2010, 12:03
relax737

I wasn't talking of 1989. I think I was at school still.

Stop being a Cassandra. You can still improve your COS.

If I you get the initial unity of the 89ers, I think a lot of airlines would be very concerned. Ansett and TAA were government backed. The government broke the strike after a period of time that would send most modern airlines broke.

I'm not advocating an 89 scenario BTW. Just sick of people claiming it to be a massive defeat for pilots, with ramifications affecting every industrial position taken 20 years later.

Skycatcher69
14th Sep 2010, 13:55
There is a famous quote that goes something like:

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are destinted to repeat the failures.

I think there is an important difference between being a realist and a defeatist.

donpizmeov
14th Sep 2010, 14:27
What was the first oz airline that employed pilots and expected them to cough up for their own type rating?
I would have thought VB fellas would have been all happy for someone else to come and fly these new machines.... would save them paying for another type rating wouldn't it? Bloody expensive to be part of this Australian pilot gig it seems.

The Don

ad-astra
14th Sep 2010, 16:59
It seems this thread has spread its tentacles to cover just about every sin and every dispute resolution known to the modern pilot.

Without trying to derail those who want to save the world....

Expressions of interest were called for the 777 and quite a number (myself included) considered the operation and submitted an EI.
Once the facts were on the table quite a few of us decided not to continue the process.
Some did and took the SYD base and all that went with it.

I don't see much difference in the current call for an Expression of Interest in the A330 operation except to say that it will be crewed exclusively by VB pilots.

Once again I have submitted an EI but a BNE base, a great lifestyle and a package (after working hard) that puts me over 250K++ will be hard to beat.

If there is insufficient interest by current and suitably qualified VB pilots then direct entry pilots will be employed by VB.

I have been told that at this stage possibly only 3 direct entry positions may be on the cards.

If and when the operation turns International then things may/will turn a bit ugly as far as the crewing aspects, but until then for those who want a MEL base to fly an Airbus product go for it.

Don,

The 777 introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
The Embraer introduction did not require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement.
I don't believe the A330 will require any VB pilot to pay for an endorsement (but the offer is yet to be tabled)

Sorry for the facts.

tsalta
14th Sep 2010, 18:37
Hmm.. the Captain who obviously knew what he was doing, ignored his junior flight deck member who was aware of the situation.
The "kid with 200hrs" would have saved 152 lives, but the Captain ended them.


That may be the case however it is likely only an extremely small part of the story. There is absolutely no doubt that experience improves safety. Not just in aviation but almost every endeavour. To suggest otherwise is complete foolishness.

tsalta

donpizmeov
14th Sep 2010, 19:17
to the stars ,

I am glad your not required to buy another Type rating. This is very good news. Enjoy the bus.

The don

orangepeel
14th Sep 2010, 23:33
Why are they getting DEC into the A330 operation?

When the Ejet operation started up - how come they managed to get away with that and not employ any DEC's?

Break Right
15th Sep 2010, 00:18
Because it's a wide body aircraft and narrow body pilots surely couldn't operate a wide body properly!!!!

relax737
15th Sep 2010, 00:19
skycatcher, I agree entirely, and I am a realist.

Unity is a myth and human nature is what makes it a myth.

orangepeel, because it's divisive to do so and the greatest enemy of the troops is uncertainty.

relax737
15th Sep 2010, 02:50
A Le Rhone said

As I mentioned perhaps before you retire you might like to leave a legacy of inspiring your young colleagues rather than perpetuating your own misery. At this time of opportunity, encouragement to better the lot of Professional Pilots is what is required.

I wish it could be so, but there is no point in giving false hope, pi$$ing in their pockets so to speak.

I will inspire young pilots to be as good as they can be, but as for giving them a rosy picture of what is, in reality, a $hit situation, is just plain dishonest.

breakfastburrito
15th Sep 2010, 02:56
Unity is a myth and human nature is what makes it a myth.
Please explain how human society can exist if unity is a myth? You are arguing that only individuals exist.

Here's an interesting link: Learned Helplessness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness)

from the link:
People with pessimistic explanatory style—which sees negative events as permanent ("it will never change"), personal ("it's my fault"), and pervasive ("I can't do anything correctly")—are most likely to suffer from learned helplessness and depression.

beaver_rotate
15th Sep 2010, 03:59
Relax 737

Mate send it to Ben Sandilands at Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/)

You'd be amazed the action he got for a few of us when CASA's calls went unanswered years back!

relax737
15th Sep 2010, 05:16
burrito, It is only individuals who exist. If they wish, they can become a united group, but total/complete unity is a myth, and anything less than total unity just doesn't cut it. There will always be individuals who will "let the side down".

If you're using wikipedia as a reference you're grasping at straws. Anybody can contribute/correct entries in wikipedia whether they have any idea about what they are writing or not. At best it is suspect, and at worst highly inaccurate.

You'll be quoting Tim Watson Munro next, the junkie psychologist who was advising the AFAP back in '89. Now there's somebody with real credibility.

A. Le Rhone
15th Sep 2010, 06:41
Jeez Relax - I went through '89 as well and I have a completely different outlook on than you.

It was the best thing ever for me. Opened up new horizons, sent me overseas (albeit against my will) and has changed my life immeasurably for the better.

I'm sorry you're such a self-admitted pessimistic old defeatist miseryguts but for me at least I have prospered by going out and grabbing the world by the nuts and taking charge of my future rather than being a passive follower. Such thinking has served me well so far and most importantly I'm not at the mercy of some selfish managers' short-term thinking.

Mate I'm sorry you happy in your world of pessimism so you avoid disappointment but that's nothing more than your comfort zone, it's not necessarily reality - it certainly aint mine.

Now is the best time in living memory for younger pilots to take advantage of this terrific situation. There hasn't been an impending shortage like this for years. Virgin are employing DEC's and that's just the start. Tiger of course are and so inevitably will J*. And if you want a lucrative career there are many OS airlines desperate for experienced pilots.

Make hay while the sun shines and ignore the miseryguts!

Fonz121
15th Sep 2010, 07:44
Anyone just see the Channel Ten news story on "worries about pilot experience in low cost airlines"?

Referred to Colgan and also Jetstar for hiring Cadets. Also had Nick Xenophon talking on the subject with his support at raising the experience requirements for FO's. At least someone in parliament is on our side.

Keep the wheels rolling.

Aussie
15th Sep 2010, 08:06
Yeah apparently the FO to have 1500hrs TT to fly anything over 5700kg in the USA has been approved by congress.... Good move.

relax737
15th Sep 2010, 08:08
A. Le Rhone, as of yesterday, Tiger in Australia was not employing DEC's. That may have changed overnight, but I was talking with a mate there yesterday and it definitely wasn't true then.

Jetstar?? That's what this thread is about, Jetstar employing DEC's and the displeasure of the incumbents at that prospect. No secret there.

It's all very well to have politicians on your side, but will it translate into $$ ? That's the question.

I'm glad you've prospered since '89. So have I, but it doesn't stop me having a realistic view of the world, and realistic is that the management would have pilots earning less than base grade clerk if they could swing it. There are plenty still full of hatred at the lack of unity and being sold out by a few back then. You see, less than total unity is no unity at all, and total unity is an unachievable goal. We are no more than animals, sophisticated animals for sure, but survival of the fittest comes into the equation.

Let me know when you start making hay. I'd be interested.

Aussie, 1500 hours on single engined aircraft, particularly instructing, will qualify an FO no better than a cadet who graduates with 200 hours, multi and instrument rating, plus quite a lot of time, no doubt, on a jet simulator.

We are way off topic though ALR, and it's only a matter of time before a mod steps in and puts a stop to it. I suggest we desist and let those who are on topic post. What do you think?

Tidbinbilla
15th Sep 2010, 08:51
I suggest you all desist and get back on topic, please.

gobbledock
15th Sep 2010, 09:31
Trust Tinbinbilla to put a stop to the testosterone relief !!
But to kick things back on track,

I don't see much difference in the current call for an Expression of Interest in the A330 operation except to say that it will be crewed exclusively by VB pilots.
If there is insufficient interest by current and suitably qualified VB pilots then direct entry pilots will be employed by VB.
I have been told that at this stage possibly only 3 direct entry positions may be on the cards.

This is a pretty accurate post. I heard basically the same information last night from within The Village.
Cheerio

relax737
16th Sep 2010, 02:01
I deleted my post, not because it was libellous, slanderous or defamatory, but because it was off topic and I don't want to be responsible for the thread being closed.

It's sufficient to say that forces greater than two pilots were responsible for 'devaluing the market' as suggested by diablo a couple of posts back.

Red Jet
16th Sep 2010, 03:53
Relax737 - I hope you have your indemnity insurance fully paid and up to date. Regardless. it's a pretty good way to make sure that a Forum thread disappear in a hurry:E

relax737
16th Sep 2010, 04:21
Red Jet, I don't want the thread to disappear so I'll delete my post, but those are facts, no indemnity insurance required. The two pilots who visited with me would stand by that.

Aussie
16th Sep 2010, 07:51
Im not going to get into your comment, as its off topic and i dont want to close the thread, but you got to be kidding me, comparing a 1500hr pilot (even if it is instructing on singles, which i believe is good time in itself) to a fresh 200hr pilot with jet sim time... HRS means real exp in the hot seat, seen it in action, and there is a significant Difference. :ok:

Toruk Macto
16th Sep 2010, 09:39
So if the cadet stays in the sim for 2000 Hours he could do the job of a 15000 Hour Captain .

Tankengine
16th Sep 2010, 10:25
You might be suprised how much you learn as an instructor!:=:
Charter/joyflying is MUCH easier than some instructing.:eek:
A thousand or two of each doesn't hurt.;)

Mr. Hat
16th Sep 2010, 11:36
ah hang on isn't this thread about A330's?

Whats the bloody Charter vs bloody Instructors argument starting up for?

Tankengine
16th Sep 2010, 22:36
Your right.
I'm not sure why so many people are so interested in the 2 pilot jobs advertised in the Australian.:confused:

gliderboy
6th Oct 2010, 02:44
Anyone get an interview?

Gliderboy

Mr. Hat
6th Oct 2010, 08:07
To be filled internally. Word is a significant number of internal applicants.

Goat Whisperer
6th Oct 2010, 11:27
"over 130" internal expressions of interest.

First 2 checkies named.

bangbounceboeing
6th Oct 2010, 22:25
there is a lot of A330 experience within VA as well as lots of ex cathay and emirates A330 skippers onboard, maybe they will get the check & training started. Also I would guess still plenty of ex Ansett A320 guys within vb although not current.

Rumour around the traps is 8-10 more airframes to be split between VA & VB to cover the triangle domestic and asian routes:ok:

Now what will they be paid is what everybody wants to know.................

t_cas
7th Oct 2010, 10:25
bbb, you would have to be a VA fella now wouldn't you?

dirty deeds
7th Oct 2010, 11:54
Mate of mine spoke to Borghetti a few weeks ago,

He stated:

"A330 flying to be conducted in house and by VB pilots, maybe a few externals and only if required".


The Ad's in the Australian sound like a HR rev up and a tool to put pressure on the pilot group to accept lower T & C's or otherwise, guess what? We might hire externals, this sounds like a clever catch 22 to me!!!!!

Maybe the J* guys can come and fly our A330's and we can come and fly your B787's, probably be an even swap anyway, oh maybe not, might have to be based in Singapore on hugh expat rates?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::

"WOOOOOOOOOWWWWW look at that A330, it's a really big aeroplane you know, really big you know, gives me the jet H%^N":yuk::yuk::yuk:

inandout
8th Oct 2010, 02:54
The 330 are ONLY for VB not VA. JB has told this in his latest meeting with senior management. VA will sit on it's hands for a while (consolidate)
before any further new 777 are ordered.

Seriously
8th Oct 2010, 07:01
I think you'll find a 6th 777 option will be taken shortly. How else will they be able to do 3 weekly services from Brissie to Abu Dhabi in Feb 2012? :confused: Unless the Delta alliance goes through and they take over MEL - LAX?

tourismman
8th Oct 2010, 09:08
I have heard that BNE-AUH will operate via SIN with a 332.
SIN was accidently added to Virgin Blue drop down menu a month or so ago and was then removed.

Yes other than that then a 6th 777 will be needed by FEB 2012.

Red Jet
8th Oct 2010, 09:25
I think you'll find a 6th 777 option will be taken shortly
Actually, I think you will find that A/C 6 & 7 are not options, but firm orders that was deferred during the GFC. In addition to the 7 firm orders, VA have a total of 6 options that may (or not) be exercised. The ETIHAD tie-up increases the likelihood of these options being taken up - we are all waiting with baited breath:ok:

Seriously
8th Oct 2010, 09:40
I thought 6 and 7 were changed to options and knew about the other 6 or so options. I had also heard about the BNE flt going through SIN, but not a 332 doing it.

SilverSleuth
8th Oct 2010, 11:10
Gotta love the rumours around here. The 330 will be doing domestic only for the short to medium term and will be crewed by VB. Va will NOT be getting any of the 330. And all the Check positions have been announced and all are current VB checkies. NO EXTERNALS hired.
VA is the problem child that is still losing money and JB has made it clear that it is a wait and see thing. It will not expand any time soon. Surviving is its main aim.

VBPCGUY
8th Oct 2010, 20:24
Who cares about pilots (joking) how about the ground handling side of things, I did put the question forward to the a member of the EMT and was told major ports (MEL/SYD/BNE) current VB staff will be trained and ground handling them.

Jet Man
9th Oct 2010, 00:20
How about the A330 management positions - have they been filled internally?

Mr.Buzzy
9th Oct 2010, 09:02
Cactus.....
McDonald's actually invest quite a lot into the training of staff. Staff at McDonalds are generally fairly paid and valued as employees.
Perhaps VB should be looking for ex. McDonalds managers?

bbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

E.P.
13th Oct 2010, 12:39
I am quite certain that there are several highly qualified ‘local’ CASA recognized folk who have been interviewed for the advertised positions.

The truth is, RH has the say now and he will demand that his EK mates fill the positions. They will swan in demanding VB/ CASA bow to their way of doing it, which will not impress CASA or for that matter VB.

Not a great start to something potentially great.

Hopefully JB keeps an eye on these things. :ok:

Muff Hunter
13th Oct 2010, 22:09
I have heard a very strong rumor that the AFAP has been negotiating INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS for pilots to fly the VB330's.... WTF!!!!!!!!:mad:

and this comes from a management pilot at VB who informed another union because he was so worried about the sh1t storm it could create!!

Bootstrap1
14th Oct 2010, 10:41
On the engineering side of these Vb 330s is there any truth in the rumour that virgin engineering will not have anything to do with these aircraft, and that JHAS will look after everything from pushbacks to overnight maintenance and A checks?

E.P.
3rd Nov 2010, 07:47
Management positions finialised and offers sent out today.

No surprise appointments ;)

Bellcrank 74
9th Nov 2010, 10:19
Hearing that 330 'A' Checks to be done O'night in SYD by JHAS as required... not sure how true this is???

Flugzeugmechaniker
10th Nov 2010, 23:10
All A330 support to be provided by JHAS

onthillside
21st Jan 2011, 10:38
anyone know if the F/O spots are internal? if so did many people apply?

The Bunglerat
21st Jan 2011, 11:18
anyone know if the F/O spots are internal? if so did many people apply?

'Yes' to the first part, & 'no' to the second.

hongkongfooey
21st Jan 2011, 21:12
In that case Bungle will they be looking for 330 F/Os externally ?

ad-astra
21st Jan 2011, 21:22
Sorry I understand all positions are being filled by current Virgin group pilots.

KRUSTY 34
22nd Jan 2011, 01:07
And so they should be!

HappyBandit
23rd Jan 2011, 05:27
Krusty

Yeah I agree they should firstly be filled from internal pool....Moving on from that, is it reasonable to assume then that there will be a significant amount of recruitment for 73 and e-jets fairly soon then??? If so, any word internally on when?

mates rates
23rd Jan 2011, 10:30
42 pilots to start between now and April.Rumoured to be another 60 this year.

The Bunglerat
24th Jan 2011, 09:32
In that case Bungle will they be looking for 330 F/Os externally ?

What can I say, other than the usual "only if there are insufficient expressions of interest from internal candidates."

coaldemon
24th Jan 2011, 10:50
EOI's are in the hundreds. Little to no chance of positions on the A330 or for that matter the B777 going external at this point.

Superbad
26th Jan 2011, 01:11
No external for A330, no f/o's anyway and from what i have head after april external hiring may only be onto the Ejet. Reason being ejet f/os being finally allowed to switch types, and taking up vacant 73 slots.

slice
27th Jan 2011, 06:49
EOIs in the hundreds!?!?! Then why did they have to ask for more FO EOIs just to crew the first 2 AC? Sounds like despite the whatever number of EOIs there are, at 737 + 5% not alot of real interest as you could lose alot more than that in allowances and O/T depending on roster structure.:ugh:

No Idea Either
27th Jan 2011, 07:06
slice...

thats just politics. All airline management say that as a tactic to keep the troops under the thumb. Yes the conditions are only marginally better that the 73 but there are heaps of guys and gals itching for the position unfortunately, both internally and externally. With the run up to the EBA I hazard a guess that this will be the standard mantra, as always......if you guys dont do it then we have millions...no trillions..... of external applicants. Standard HR, dont be fooled by it again...........

Whiskery
27th Jan 2011, 07:55
Standard HR, dont be fooled by it again...........
Classic Who (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE)

The Bunglerat
27th Jan 2011, 08:09
...What Slice said.

SilverSleuth
27th Jan 2011, 09:39
Superbad says: from what i have head after april external hiring may only be onto the Ejet.

That is correct! It has been announced to the pilot body that ALL new pilots in VB (including VA fo's if they move accross) will be Ejet Fo's. No more direct onto the 737. (and rightfully so) Ejet fos will be moved across first. Tis about time. !!

3dimsims
27th Jan 2011, 19:39
How about guys wishing to join virgin with 737ng and 777 experience? Whould the same apply?

F111
27th Jan 2011, 21:32
Don't know about V, but at Virgin Blue it doesn't matter if you have 737 time, come April all new pilots start on the Ejet.

Servo
27th Jan 2011, 22:30
Dont remember reading that. (must have been with all the other emails regarding lost torches, jepp plates, jackets, sun glasses, crew trying to get out of operational duty because they commute :hmm:)

Though will go a long way to finally sorting out movement problems etc and the issue with $$$

Icarus2001
27th Jan 2011, 23:42
Do you really think if someone applies with 5000 hours on an NG they will send them to the Ejet?

SilverSleuth
28th Jan 2011, 00:05
Icarus2001 says: Do you really think if someone applies with 5000 hours on an NG they will send them to the Ejet?

Yes as already said from April all new recruits go onto the Ejet. Doesn't matter on hours.

Mr. Hat
28th Jan 2011, 02:27
Great idea that way if you don't want to fly the Ejet you can apply to Jetstar and give the guys in the LHS and the crew room a rest from what an injustice it all is.

aussie027
28th Jan 2011, 02:36
Can someone please post a list of VB pilot bases and aircraft types crewed from each.
Which bases are external new hires on the Ejet ikely to get or can you nominate/ask for a preferred basing??

Are initial endorsements paid for by the company up front but then salary sacrificed later by the employee and thus effectively paid partly or in full??? Some accurate figures would be appreciated.
Thanks.:ok:

Icarus2001
28th Jan 2011, 02:41
Yes, heaven forbid that an airline lists its' bases on the "come and work for us" page of their website. That would show some respect for potential employees.

Goat Whisperer
28th Jan 2011, 02:47
Aussie, it's not hard to find the Virgin Blue pilot EBA online.

E Jet bases are Mel, Syd, Bne, Per. FOs will be needed in all bases.

Endorsement cost, A$30k, can be salary sacrificed over 1 yr or 2.

It's not news and it's not related to the topic title.

GAFA
28th Jan 2011, 03:00
Bases are: BNE, SYD, MEL and PER. All bases have both the 737 and Ejet crewed from them with the A330 also crewed from SYD.

You are asked at the interview what base(s) you would prefer and if you don't get your prefered base, once CTL you can bid for the prefered base.

Over the last 12-18 months 80-90% of new pilots have gone to SYD (hardest base to crew) with rest going to BNE, MEL and PER.

At the moment is hard to say what bases new Ejet FO's would likely go due to the turboprops coming in the second half of the year and the 170's going. SYD Ejet crews would spend 80% of thier time of the 170, so with them leaving and and most of the flights they current do going to the turboprop the SYD Ejet numbers may be reduced.

The salary sacrifice option is done over 12 or 24 months, so the company pays the endoresment and then take it back out of your pay over the 12 or 14 months (your choice). You will not get paid until you are on the Virgin Blue Induction course, so no pay for 4-5 weeks.

Once you have paid back the endorsement you are free to move to another type as an FO (or Capt) at no cost to you. FO's who have been here for just over 3 years have been awarded 737 commands in SYD and Ejet FO's who have been here for 2 years are getting Ejet commands.

Hope that helps.

ga_trojan
28th Jan 2011, 03:03
All bases have both the 737 and Ejet crewed from them with the A330 also crewed from SYD.No 737 in Perth

Once you have paid back the endorsement you are free to move to another type as an FO (or Capt) at no cost to you. .No that is not correct there is no lateral movement as such. Your first move is as a Captain however that has been waived lately with all the changes going on.

FO's who have been here for just over 3 years have been awarded 737 commands in SYD

Really? Might want to check your numbers on that one.

aussie027
28th Jan 2011, 03:17
Thank you very much for the info Guys.:ok:

GAFA
28th Jan 2011, 03:23
Sorry ga, you are correct there is no 737 base in PER.

Yes the EBA does say the first move must be a Captain and it has been wavied at the moment, but there is no way that line will appear in the new EBA after the problems it has caused over the last 2-3 years.

With regard to the 737 commands in SYD, the last email (a few weeks ago) with the awared commands in SYD most of these FO's were from the Oct 2007 737 course (check their staff numbers), so they have been here just over 3 years.

Some goes for the EJet commands, pilots have been geting them in PER with around 2 years with the company the ones about to start their upgrade and will be based in SYD are just over the 2 years mark, once again check their staff numbers.

Altimeters
28th Jan 2011, 05:09
Once you have paid back the endorsement you are free to move to another type as an FO (or Capt) at no cost to you. .

No that is not correct there is no lateral movement as such. Your first move is as a Captain however that has been waived lately with all the changes going on.

So hang on here...are you guys saying that you can't move from FO E-jet to FO 737? It must be getting promoted to a captain first?

Mr. Hat
28th Jan 2011, 05:13
I think thats been changed. There are a lot of changes on the horizon.

GAFA
28th Jan 2011, 05:53
Alt, that is correct. For some stupid reason one line was put in the current EBA and it has been a pain in the wallet for the Ejet FO's. With the intorduction of the A330 the company has agreed to wavier this requirement, which now allows the Ejet FO's the option of moving to the 737 or A330 as FO's, hence or new FO's will now be on the Ejet. There is no way that line will remain in the next EBA.

onthillside
28th Jan 2011, 06:00
If that is true, then i would imagine the fleet pay rumour would be scratched? or why would they put all new recruits on the Ejet?

Dragun
28th Jan 2011, 06:04
I'm not somone in the know, but unless if that's written into the EBA, wouldn't the company resist allowing FO moves from the Ejet to the 737? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that drastically increase training cost through endorsements and lost line time if they effectively have to double the training? i.e. train an existing ejet FO onto the 737 (at the company's endorsement expense) - lose the pilot in the meantime - then train a new FO onto the Ejet to replace him/her?

Wouldn't it we easier to just train a new recruit directly on the 737 if that's where the crew are needed?

aussie027
28th Jan 2011, 06:39
Dragun,........you would think so, yes.

Then again VB should be paying for all endos, initial new hire and subsequent with maybe an aircraft type lock for say 2 yrs to cover costs.
So an Ejet FO can stay on Ejet as either FO or Capt (as long as they qual for upgrade) for 2 yrs then can bid for 737, A330.

F111
28th Jan 2011, 07:03
After talking to a management pilot last week, the company wants fleet pay on the B737 and Embraer. By having the fleet pay it would stop/ slow the move from the RH seat of the Embraer to the B737 with First Officers who want to stay in the RH but after a pay rise only moving over to the A330.

This year looks like another big year for change.

Mr. Hat
28th Jan 2011, 08:20
Dragun,

"Company" has the luxury of recruits paying for their initial training so I don't think its too much of an ask to allow an Ejet FO to move off SYD-CBR a few times in 30 years! All within reason. Place some time restrictions and limit the number of moves and everybody is happy. Expecting the Ejet FO to wait till a 777 command before he/she gets to fly long haul and expecting that they will do this is fanciful in the extreme (they have little incentive to stay) (they will get bored).

Pilots have life stages and like to try new styles of flying over their career. This is a natural instinct and doesn't stop because some wannabee corporate highflier decides they can save a buck. If Virgin Blue think they will hold people on type for their entire career so they can save a dollar in training costs (which they didn't pay for at the initial endorsement phase anyway) they might find that their Ejet FO's/Captains might actually piss off overseas to fly a 777 and not play their game at all. Clever ideas can get expensive if you start dicking with morale and peoples long term future. Low turn over can change overnight.

Sounds like another case of clever people over at QF switching APU's off to save X then lose Y when the APU's keep breaking. How does type and career progression work at Qantas? There's your answer.

OhForSure
28th Jan 2011, 10:58
Sorry to get back onto the A330s again... but simple question:

Where are they going to park them in SYD? :confused:

F111
28th Jan 2011, 11:01
Simple answer....at the gate.

3dimsims
28th Jan 2011, 12:53
So when will virgin start hiring?

Dragun
28th Jan 2011, 20:42
Cheers Mr. Hat

I'm not saying I disagree with allowing the move or anything you've said, I'm a pilot myself! All I was questioning was the claim that from April, all courses will be Ejet, as to fill 737 FO slots (if required), they're going to allow current Ejet FOs to move to the 737 and just recruit for the Ejet.

I had a quick glance at the VBA EBA and it says in one section point blank that your first move must be to gain a promotion in rank. I was just saying that if that's the case, I can't understand why the company would change it (by April) until a new agreement is reached. i.e. they can just recruit straight to the aircraft type for which they require crew without increases their training costs. The EBA seems pretty clear but maybe some sort of variation agreement has been reached between the company and pilot council/union that hasn't yet been made aware to the pilot group officially.

Titan Driver
28th Jan 2011, 21:28
The EBA seems pretty clear but maybe some sort of variation agreement has been reached between the company and pilot council/union

If you have access to the AFAP site, look under briefings - 21 Jan. The info is there.

Mr. Hat
28th Jan 2011, 22:28
Dragun, I don't understand why they've flexed the rule for this occasion. Personally I was surprised to not see people from CX and JQ with 330 experience come into the 330 as FO's. Might be a case that they didn't want people with significant experience trying to tell the guy in the LHS how to do the job which makes sense from a gradient perspective.

My post was more related to trying to restrict people on type indefinitely by posing harsh financial penalties on them. This in my opinion would cause poor morale. IMHO people should be allowed to move to different types to broaden their experience base and allow them to suit their life stages. Understand the costs and agree with limiting them but not at the cost of professional growth. Cost savings can be achieved in many ways and education/safety/maintenance are no go zones for me.

I guess I get my back up at the relentless attempts in our industry to claw dollars off our skillset. I think we've given enough. Particularly when i see money wasted needlessly everyday in other areas. Pilot group seems to be an easy target always.

Congrats and good luck to those flying "le bus". Its a beautiful machine.

GAFA
28th Jan 2011, 23:47
Morale is already low within the Ejet FO ranks due to the fact the V CFO have come over onto the 737 paid nothing for either the 777 or the 737 (only bonds) and the Ejet FOs have paid for their Ejet endorsement and the company wanted them to pay another $40-50K if they wanted to move to the 737 as an FO. So the company had to do something to fix this plus they needed to find FOs for the A330 so with the AFAP (not to sure about VIPA) an agreement was reached. There have been many emails to the pilot group over the last 3-4 months regarding this so they have been kept in the loop.

This variation in the EBA will allow movement within the 737 and Ejet FO ranks as 737 or Ejet FOs move to the A330, then it opens up FO positions on the 737, which will be filled internally buy Ejet FOs and the Ejet slots will be filled externally.

Dragun
29th Jan 2011, 02:06
Thanks Titan Driver, just had a read...very interesting! Seems the last external 737 course will be in April.

Mr. Hat
29th Jan 2011, 03:34
GAFA is the VACFO 777 a command endorsement?

Just wondering. You seem to be in the know.

GAFA
29th Jan 2011, 04:49
I believe they are command endorsements and the VCFO signed up for a 30 month bond with V, yet within 24 months the lucky ones have come over onto the 737 (on another bond) and did not have to pay any of the remaining bond on the 777.

The AFAP had a meeting with JB over this and the morale problem within the Ejet FO racks. My understanding (2nd hand info) is they showed him 2 pilots who had interviews with VB 2-3 years ago. One pilot was offered employment as a Ejet FO while the other missed out. The pilot who missed out went on to get a job with V as a CFO. The V pilot was one of the lucky ones who have since joined VB on the 737. The AFAP showed JB, the Ejet pilot who had given the company 2- 3 years loyal service was financially worse off due to salary sacrificing his endorsement and his pay is $20k less than the 737 FO.

The company had to do something, hence the change from April and then perhaps fleet pay.

Humber10
29th Jan 2011, 05:16
from skim reading this thread, guys at VB are worried about external type rated pilots being hired on to the a330.

what some dont seem to understand is the business model of the company that they work for. This is the business model at VB and always has been,where crew have already held a type rating or paid for their training. As i understand things, you guys still pay for your jobs? If you dont like that business model, then dont work for such companies.

I am totally against buying a job, with type ratings etc and so have never gone down this road, as all it does is totally degrade T&Cs. this erosion of T&Cs has been easy to see in Australia and nz over the last few years since virgin entered the market in Australia. If people would just stop buying their jobs, then this crap would stop, but people seem hell bent in buying their jobs, when there is no need to.

Im sorry if this seems harsh, but dont complain if you wanted to buy a job to fly a jet and then complain when the company expands and needs more crew. I understand that it is a heavier aircraft, more pay etc, but that is not the business model of your company to pay for your training. If folk stop paying for their training, then you will be able to make a change. Has your union considered a employment ban, until you get seniority and training paid for?

Mr. Hat
29th Jan 2011, 06:10
Personally couldn't care less if they bring in DE experienced/endorsed 330 FOs. Captains is another kettle of fish.

Its the company that wanted internals as I understand it.

That explains it GAFA cheers.

slice
29th Jan 2011, 08:18
Ah no Humber... apart from some management appointments no external crew for the A330 at this stage(probably never), unless you count V Aus as external. The focus is on the totally inconsistent approach to movement between fleets and/or group companies (re V Cruise FO 737 slots at the expense of Ejet FOs etc. etc.)

Mr. Hat
29th Jan 2011, 08:23
Kind of would have been funny to have seen Jetstar loose their entire 330 FO pool to VB. Guess it didn't happen that way..

Come back 2007 my popcorn's getting cold!

fmcinop
29th Jan 2011, 10:01
Crz F/O's at V only get copilot 777 endorsements.

Visual Landing
29th Jan 2011, 10:19
The current 777 crz fo's have all been told they are getting 777 command endorsements over the next 12 months. Instead of their current fo endorsements.

galdian
29th Jan 2011, 11:53
...and the WRITTEN confirmation from Messers Borghetti et al does indeed confirm what they have allegedly been told??

Just wondering! ;)

S70IP
29th Jan 2011, 20:22
"They have all been told they are getting command endorsements over the next 12 months".

Who's been told what command in what?
The 777 CRZ FO's who have come to the 737?
Command in 12 months?

Capt_SNAFU
29th Jan 2011, 20:37
S7 I'm sure they mean command endorsements as opposed to co-pilot ones. Not commands (not captains)

onthillside
30th Jan 2011, 07:38
Why is it, this always becomes an "us and them" debate with regards to VB and Voz?(not just on this forum) to help put a bit of light on on the subject..........

When i joined Voz as a CRFO i was given a co-pilot endorsement. I was told that i was bonded for 30 months. I was told that i may have to go to VB as a part of my carer progression but was also lead to believe there might be a chance of progressing within Voz. I like every other CRFO took a "chance" on my own fate. I could have rejected the offer and tried my luck with VB but at the time i thought Voz would suit me better.
After 2 years with Voz i was given the chance to go to VB as an FO as part of my carer progression. I had to pass an interview and sim check just like any other person off the street, with no special privileges.There were about 30 CRFO'S that went through the process and only about half were accepted. Times had changed for me and this now suited me(and the misses) better then Voz. I went onto the Ejet as did about 6 other CRFO'S and again we were bonded for 30 months. It was again a "chance" I accepted, as our seniority in the company(VB) had not been decided at that point. I have since found out that i am on the bottom of the list and did not keep my Voz start date as my seniority in VB, so my gamble here did not pay off. It is true that i have not paid for any endorsement and there are plenty of other threads about "paying for endorsement" and in this respect my gamble paid off and I am grateful for that. For the record i had the experience to apply to VB way back when they started, I didn't as i tried my luck elsewhere and thats another story.

A CRFO at Voz is on $60k approx so 2 years there gave me $120k, 2 endorsements $60k. Total for 2 years $180k.
FO at VB $80k approx(on Ejet) so 2 years $160k less $30k endorsement $130k.
So i guess i made $25k per year more then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz, not forgetting the VB pilot keeps the 2 years of seniority.
VB pilot may get command in 1 year or so then $150k approx so $380k in 3 years.
Me on FO wage for 3 years $270k (jumps up to $90k level 2)
So as my figures suggest....I am actually $60k worse off over 5 years even with my "free" endorsements then the person that joined VB when i joined Voz

These are the facts!

Now for my opinion........I have been an employee of the Virgin group for 2 1/2 years, its the same bloody group, be it VB or Voz we are all on the same team! Some of my gambles paid off some didn't, but i took a chance and i am now where i am. Stop complaining about where you are in life and how unfair it all is. Aviation is a Gamble at best and if someone takes a bigger gamble and it pays off then Good on them they have my blessings.

Very sorry for the thread drift but hopefully this will enlighten some and help keep the actual thread topics as the topic of future threads.

fmcinop
30th Jan 2011, 08:39
onthillside

VA,VB,PB it should make no difference.

I had to go through the same wringer but the other way. VB to VA. Interview, psych test and stupid roll playing game and that was after 9 years at VB.

It's a two way street. the guys going across from VB had no easier time and many who applied and were interviewed did not get offered position.

I must say having flown with a lot of the Crz F/O's, most a great but others... I can see why they were rejected by VB! Total duds. VA have the same right to reject the VB duds.

How do you think the EMB guys feel about VA Crz F/O's who have been in the company half the time they have, walking in a getting direct entry onto the 737 earning almost $30,000 more. There are many F/O's at vb who would like a crack at the 777. How would they feel having been here for years, watching those positions going to a Crz F/O who has been here 2 years?

There are issues on all sides.

Mr. Hat
30th Jan 2011, 09:04
(not just on this forum) to help put a bit of light on on the subject..........


Most guys I fly with couldn't care less if you came from vb, pb, va or the moon. All they care about is that you do your job and get along with them well. I wouldn't give the issue one more minute. These days the Ejet guys can apparently move so the issue is dead and buried time to move on as a pilot group. The way I see it: you wear the same uniform you're one of us. Significant majority (99%) of us see it that way.

The reality is, as you correctly pointed out, things changed in your life and you needed to move. So to will that be the case for all of us at some stage. The group as a whole must not attempt this latest flavour/idea of trapping people on a type. Bond them, freeze them, boil them but allow the 73 guy to fly the trippler and the Ejet guy to fly the 330 vice versa. Infact they should enable/support career path and growth of individuals. People flying the same type for 10+ years grow stagnant and tired. Massimo might have some whiz bang figures that show savings but I've got some true line stories of guys that just needed to move on to reinvigorate themselves. This creates movement which improves morale and also gets people into the books. A dollar figure can't be placed on those two. Happy people=Flexible Engaged Workforce. Just ask crewing at Jetstar about it. I lost count of people I know there that wouldn't help the company if their life depended on it.

There are some young guys out there that could well become well rounded longhaul captains one day and this wont happen if they just stay on type because they can't afford the paycut to move. A pilot is a 30-40 year investment for the company not some line in an excel bargraph.

Thats my bit.

onthillside
30th Jan 2011, 09:14
fmcinop,

i agree VA,VB,PB should all be the same.

You went straight to capt(i'm guessing) at Voz because of you seniority from VB but it does not work in reverse for us.....so NO not really the same but in reverse as you suggest.

Its not my place to judge who are "Duds" and who are not.

I agree totally that NO ONE should get a better position in the company ahead of another who may have been there longer(i have never said that) and the new recruits going to the Ejet sounds like a good idea to me.

Agreed totally that there are issues on both sides....this was actually my point i was trying to make. So please do not think that the CRFO'S got it easy or the better deal because that is just not true.

I dont know the answers to all the issues(thats why im not in management)

onthillside
30th Jan 2011, 09:17
Mr Hat,


Agreed totally.

fmcinop
30th Jan 2011, 20:02
The fix is easy.

We need to rid ourselves of the us and them mentality. I know this is ripe in VB againsg those in VA and PB, but can assure you it is just as strong in VA. We were certainly told in no uncertain terms that 7000 hours on 737 command was not worth the paper it was written on. The 777 is apparently only one step back from the space shuttle??. Yes I did get a direct entry command, but this was ot just based on seniority, it was also based on experience and that is where some, not all crz f/o's fall short.

Seniority and a mass shift in attitude would certainly go a long way. PD has done more to ensure smooth transition between companies than just about anyone else. There is a steady stream on crz f/o's going to VB this year and that's great.

As far as commands based on start date, that is how it has been for a long time but remember it's also based on other things like experience, hours, sim records, line check reports. Even if crz f/o's did keep seniority and I think they should most would not meet the requirements for command anyway, although there are a number of highly experienced crz f/o's who would.

I have never thought about it but did I keep my seniority coming over to VA? While yes I do have a 777 command, seniority does come into play for other things like ad hoc leave etc.

onthillside
31st Jan 2011, 03:19
fmcinop,

Thanks for the great reply. It is great to get some positive feedback.
Yes PD has done a remarkable job on transfers and without him and more guys like him the outcome would not be so bright for all concerned.

Servo
31st Jan 2011, 05:28
PD is one of life's true gentleman! If the company (flight operations) had more people like him we would be in a much better position. Pity he didn't get the top job.

I for one have never had the them and us attitude, we have "lost" some great guys to VA, but in return are seeing some great blokes coming over as well.

For many of us when joining VB, it was only EVER going to be a small low cost airline, now we have the possible opportunity to move within the operation should we want a career change to suit our lifestyle.

It is a given, that more changes need to take place, balancing $$$, transparency with "awarded" positions and an easier system to transfer to the different operations : Regional, Domestic, Medium Haul and Long Haul.

In doing so may take a lot of the workload from PD and AB :)

Ducksarse
7th Feb 2011, 23:10
Sorry to revive a long dead thread, but....

Reading over past posts I was struck buy how short the time to command seems to be - 2 years on the Ejet and 3+ ON THE 737?

Surely the company isn't expanding that fast? Where are all the senior people going?

Any more news on fleet pay? I notice the EBA expires later this year?

F111
8th Feb 2011, 00:46
The senior pilots are still there in the Brisbane and Melbourne bases, the 2-3 year commands are in Perth (E-jet) and Sydney (B737 and Ejet).

Warped Wings
8th Feb 2011, 01:53
I don't think people should get the impression that 2-3 years to a command is the norm at Virgin. It''s the situation right now but it might not be the case in another 12 months time.

6 E170's going and only 3 E190's coming, new 737's to replace older aircraft. Crew slowly moving to the 4 A330 due over the next couple of years. More A330's expected but who knows how many or when (or even which pilot group will be flying them if they go international - probably PB not VB).

A fair bit of movement with command upgrades this year but it will probably be much slower (read normal) from 2012 and onwards.

Still, it's a great place to work, just don't join with unrealistic ideas of time to command.

F111
8th Feb 2011, 12:50
True Warped wings things will most likely slow again next year, but if the A330 numbers increase as per the rumours and the 190's stay then commands could still run around the 3 - 5 year mark.

bangbounceboeing
8th Feb 2011, 23:44
when are the A330's due, is it still 2 ac in May then 2 more next year?

Mr. Hat
9th Feb 2011, 01:24
onthehillside and hongkongfooey,

Announced today FO positions filled by internals FYI.

I have no idea if these were Ejet guys or not.

Either way looks like the overall morale is good. A real uniform arriving soon and opportunities filled by internals is a good start to the year.

EBA is next. That could be a different story!

ad-astra
9th Feb 2011, 01:50
7 transfers to the A330
Most were EJet First Officers in Sydney
At least 1 737 Brisbane First Officer

1 fellow was on the last page of the Flight Crew List 35 from the bottom.

Good luck to him!

Mr. Hat
9th Feb 2011, 01:52
Most were EJet First Officers in Sydney

Good to hear.

Servo
9th Feb 2011, 05:31
I dont think it is a great idea and I am sure you wont either if they are given a command on the 330 before you, because the 'requirements' change.

Yes I am glad that the positions were filled internally, but the whole process has not been communicated well and is far from transparent.

ad-astra
9th Feb 2011, 09:16
Servo I am not sure what you are getting at but the positions were advertised and awarded and published.

These are FO positions that are rightly filled by current VB pilots.

The Bunglerat
9th Feb 2011, 16:12
I think what Servo's getting at is the prospect of an ex-Ejet F/O getting his/her first command on a widebody, as opposed to someone more senior, or who came from a more "senior" A/C type (but then again, I may be wrong).

On the second note, let's not forget that guys were joining VB & getting their first jet command on a 737 after having flown nothing bigger than a Chieftain, so why should an A330 be any different? Just a thought...

KRUSTY 34
9th Feb 2011, 19:26
Not quite sure that's the case Bunglerat?

Quite often a pilots first Jet, and ceratainly turbo-prop, would come with only piston engined experience. but Command would normally be from progression from the RHS to the LHS, after considerable Jet and or experience on type.

As far as promotion down the track is concerned, whether it be offered purely on a date of joining basis, or specific to aircraft type, it needs to be spelt out without ambiguity. I think that's what Servo was getting at. From what I've seen of the way DJ approach some HR issues, they tend to leap first, and then wonder why people get pissed off later on! The AFAP should be all over this?

ad-astra
9th Feb 2011, 19:52
I'm still confused!

These First Officer positions were awarded by datal seniority.

Unless I have missed something why would they now be awarded a Command on the A330 ahead of those more senior?

ppRune living up to its name!

Icarus2001
10th Feb 2011, 03:54
but Command would normally be from progression from the LHS to the RHS

Normally, where?

KRUSTY 34
10th Feb 2011, 04:47
Ahhh sorry Icarus'. you know what I mean! :rolleyes: Dexlictic with only one cup of coffee.

I have amended the post. :ok:

John Citizen
10th Feb 2011, 04:51
but Command would normally be from progression from the LHS to the RHS

Normally, where?

Helicopter ? :p

Peak Tram Driver
10th Feb 2011, 05:30
cathay pacific has been approached to do the A330 line training for VB.

bangbounceboeing
10th Feb 2011, 05:43
I doubt that as they already have 2 very experienced checkers with many thousands of hours on the 330/340 with them at the moment and more ex EK trainers and line crews just waiting in the midst.....................unless cathay is training the VA 330 crews........................;)

SMOC
10th Feb 2011, 07:20
2 or 3 crews (VB) should have done some line flying with CX in Jan, probably all done by now.

Harbour Dweller
10th Feb 2011, 08:07
First VB crews have already completed CX training and are back in Australia.

F111
10th Feb 2011, 12:34
For some reason more senior FO's who had bids in for A330 FO positions were over looked.:ugh:

t_cas
10th Feb 2011, 14:08
the truth sometimes reveals the MO.

If f/o slots seem to have been awarded out of seniority/start date/bid group/general normal order of things, that would most likely be contributed to the fact that the company made a small error of judgment and instead of Melbourne base, the A330 all of a sudden is Sydney based. No prizes for guessing why a few F/O's would say "hang on a minute"....

A move to Sydney for 5%. You do not need to be a mathematician to work out the fallout.

Ladder climbing would be the only reason from that angle. The fact that out of order seems to be the case is an indication of the testicular fortitude some F/O's have here....

Kudos to those who gracefully turned down the offer....

Servo
10th Feb 2011, 20:10
TCAS,

The EOI for FO's ONLY was offered to ALL pilots again due to the change of base. The recent awarded positions are for Sydney and all and sundry new that.

More commuters who will start bitching and moaning they HAVE to commute........

The A330 introduction is sloppy (especially crew) with a lack of information and the appointment of both positions outside start date.

As I understand it, as the A330 operation is currently outside the 2007 EBA then VB can and do as it pleases. Good luck getting any help from AFAP or VIPA they will just cry poor and say we cant do anything.

Therefore my previous comment stands, that is promotion to the left hand seat is entirely possible.

campdoag
10th Feb 2011, 22:02
Have a look at which fleet and base 6 of the 7 guys are currently from!!!

With the 170s going, 1 airframe per month from june (or so im told) and with the majority of the 170 flying out of SYD, I am of the opinion that these appointments are to assist in managing a looming surplus of ejet crew in SYD.

The company looking after their own needs before considering engagement once again..... Tis no surprise

F111
10th Feb 2011, 22:52
The only problem is more senior Ejet FO's based in Sydney applied for the position and they missed out. A couple of these guys applied to the first EOI and updated as each EOI was put out. So due to the fact the A330 is not covered by the EBA looks like anything can happen.

The Bunglerat
11th Feb 2011, 01:05
If anyone has sour grapes over this issue, I do hope it is directed towards management & not the guys who took the jobs.

I had an EoI in the system from Day-1, however as soon as the change of base was announced, I promptly withdrew. I wasn't trying to be a martyr, or set an example, or stick it to the company to prove a point. It simply was a case of not being interested in a move to SYD for what was on offer - & that was always a personal lifestyle decision, nothing more.

I'll be the first to agree that the whole process has not been managed well, but whatever gripes I might have with the system or the management process driving it, I bear no ill will towards the guys who got the slots - & wish them all the best. I've got better things to do with my time than bitch & moan about the fact that an E-jet F/O leapfrogged me to a bigger aeroplane.

yigy2
11th Feb 2011, 06:47
Two of the latest A330 F/O slots were 737 syd based f/o's who were displaced onto the E Jet during the GFC for over a year as well.

So all up it's three 737's drivers and the rest were E Jet drivers moving onto the bus

slice
11th Feb 2011, 06:57
Crikey they must be keen - three endorsements from three different manufacturers in three years.:eek: My brain would fuse!!

piston broke again
15th Feb 2011, 02:32
I notice that Airbus have Virgin Blue listed as a customer/operator for both the -200 and -300 A330's. Is there something we don't know about?

Goat Whisperer
15th Feb 2011, 22:10
Air Asia X (Xanadu 2722 to you) have deferred all A330 deliveries for a year, that should free up some new airframes in a shot. They seem to operate RR powered 300s.