Special VFR question

[Cobbler]

I'm a little confused about the use of Special VFR in the UK - class D and E airspace (I do understand its use in, say, the Heathrow or Jersey class A CTRs).

Having just done an ICAO air law course for the CPL exams, we are taught that SVFR basically allows a normal PPL holder to fly VFR in controlled airspace in less than the normal visiblity requirements - hence, for example, in the US, where you need 3 miles visibility for a typical class D airfield, SVFR allows you to take off and land in one mile vis.

Unfortunately, the air law course does not cover the UK(!), and my memory from PPL air law is rusty.

Can SVFR be used in the same way in this country, at class D airports such as Bournemouth or Luton? Or does the 10nm visibility requirement (that exists for SVFR at Heathrow's class A) also extend to class D areas?

Sorry if this is a bit of a nerdy question!

[The Flying I]

Vis minimum for SVFR depends on the country, & sometimes the airfield within the country. However, the way the UK use it, a SVFR for a normal PPL needs 10K
Worth checking out 14 and 15 on http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/faq.htm
which seem to cover it.
So many normal PPLs get confused about svfr because they hear IMCers talking about getting in and out of Controlled Airspace with poorer visibility and they don't realise they can't use it like that.

[bookworm]

Cobbler

It's a good question. For historical reasons, the use of SVFR in the UK is a bit odd. The UK has class A CTRs (and had the equivalent before ICAO alphabet soup caught on) where SVFR is the only option for visual flight regardless of weather conditions. To prevent PPLs with no instrument qualification from scud running through the London CTR in silly visibilities, a licence privilege restriction demands a 10 km minimum visibility for them. This was the same as the old VFR minimum vis in controlled airspace (5 nm) and so it used to facilitate access to what are now class A CTRs on about the same terms as others. Since then the VFR minima have changed.

If you have an IMC rating, the min vis drops to 3000 m. If you have an IR, there's no licence privilege minimum vis, but a minimum visibility at the airport is usually required for a SVFR clearance to be issued (typically 1500 m).

Incidentally, I think the purpose of SVFR is better stated as allowing a flight that is unwilling to comply with IFR to enter or leave controlled airspace. It's not necessarily aimed at increasing the flexibility of the basic PPL. In the US, although a basic PPL allows SVFR during the day, an IR is required at night.

[Flybywyre]

Bookworm.......................
The UK has class A CTRs (and had the equivalent before ICAO alphabet soup caught on) where SVFR is the only option for visual flight regardless of weather conditions.
Wrong....SVFR minima apply.

[QUOTE] If you have an IR, there's no licence privilege minimum vis, but a minimum visibility at the airport is usually required for a SVFR clearance to be issued (typically 1500 m). Confusing irrelavance.
[QUOTE] Incidentally, I think the purpose of SVFR is better stated as allowing a flight that is unwilling to comply with IFR to enter or leave controlled airspace
Why ?
Looking forward to your reply. Please keep it too less than 3 pages :D :D

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]

[Cobbler]

Thanks for the replies, folks. My understanding is now:

No IMC: SVFR (except in class A zones) is basically no use, as the vis minima are higher(!!) than for normal VFR; the only advantage would be avoiding the 1500 ft clearance over towns rule.

IMC / IR: You can use the reduced minima of 3000m / 1500m depending on which rating you have, if you don't want to bother going under IFR.

Now if only the good old JAA exams taught air law as it exists in our country, not as it exists in the idealised, non-existent ICAO land!

[Flybywyre]

Looks as if you've got it..........
Just one thing to remember which is often used in exams to trip you up.
A basic PPL holder wishing to transit Class D airspace during the day does not need a SVFR. Only at night is a SVFR required.
Regards
FBW

[bookworm]

I wrote: The UK has class A CTRs (and had the equivalent before ICAO alphabet soup caught on) where SVFR is the only option for visual flight regardless of weather conditions.
FBW responded: Wrong....SVFR minima apply.
I'm not suggesting that they don't. Perhaps you're parsing the sentence that you quote in a way that I hadn't intended. Try "In class A CTRs SVFR is the only option for visual flight even if the weather conditions are good". Better?

If you have an IR, there's no licence privilege minimum vis, but a minimum visibility at the airport is usually required for a SVFR clearance to be issued (typically 1500 m).
Confusing irrelavance.
Do you regard the irrelevance to be that there is typically a minimum vis of 1500 m or that the minimum is not a licence privilege restriction? I think both are quite relevant.

Incidentally, I think the purpose of SVFR is better stated as allowing a flight that is unwilling to comply with IFR to enter or leave controlled airspace

Why ?

I reckon SVFR is more commonly used by IR holders to circumvent equipment requirements or lengthy IFR procedures than licence privilege restrictions. But that's debatable. I certainly don't think Cobbler's description captures the purpose of SVFR very accurately.


Looking forward to your reply. Please keep it too less than 3 pages

But it takes two and a half pages just to correct your spelling... :D

[Flybywyre]

Bookworm......thanks for the reply.
Have another go :D :D

Bookworm said:
I'm not suggesting that they don't. Perhaps you're parsing the sentence that you quote in a way that I hadn't intended. Try "In class A CTRs SVFR is the only option for visual flight even if the weather conditions are good". Better?
No...worse !!
What do you mean by "visual flight" ? there is no such thing as VFR in class A airspace.

Bookworm said:
If you have an IR, there's no licence privilege minimum vis, but a minimum visibility at the airport is usually required for a SVFR clearance to be issued (typically 1500 m).
Clearance to do what ?
That's the confusing irrelevance.

Bookworm said:
I reckon SVFR is more commonly used by IR holders to circumvent equipment requirements or lengthy IFR procedures than licence privilege restrictions. But that's debatable.
:rolleyes: Sorry Bookworm but you are obviously not a pilot.

Regards
FBW

PS Regarding spelling, the words "glasshouse" and "stones" spring to mind.

:D :D :D :D :D

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]

[Warped Factor]

Please allow me to muddy the waters by giving you the definition of SVFR Flight from The Manual of Air Traffic Services Pt 1.

And I quote.....

"(SVFR is) a flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A, or in any other control zone in IMC or at night, in respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given permission for the flight to be made in accordance with special instructions given by that unit instead of in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules and in the course of which flight the aircraft complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface".

There's also a nice one line description in Pooleys....

"Clearance for SVFR flight in the UK is an authorisation by ATC for a pilot to fly within a Control Zone although he/she is unable to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules".

Bearing in mind any licence limitations, ATC will not issue a SVFR clearance for a fixed wing departure from a Control Zone if the met report gives a viz of 1,800m or less and/or the cloud ceiling is less than 600ft.

But the above can also be varied locally.

The two units which I am very familiar with and in current practice of issuing the odd SVFR clearances have the following restrictions....

Airfield 1)

Inbound... reported met viz must be 10km or more, and the lowest reported cloud 1,200ft or above.

Outbound... reported met viz must be 1,900m or more and cloud ceiling 600ft or above.

Airfield 2)

SVFR clearances inbound or outbound to fixed wing are not to be granted if the reported met viz is less than 3km or the reported cloud ceiling is less than 1,000ft.

SVFR is a much misunderstood subject and I can see why many find it confusing, but it really is quite simple. IMHO :)

WF.

p.s. FBW, no problem from here following Bookworms line of thought.

p.p.s. and I can confirm that Bookworm is a pilot as well :)

[Flybywyre]

WF....................
Thanks for the post. I must say I am suprised to learn that BW is a pilot.
No offence BW, just thought you may have had a more practical approach to SVFR, as WF said it is quite simple (ish).
Regards
FBW
PS Care to name the 2 airfields, or even 1 of them as I can't think of many where you would need a SVFR to get in/out. :confused:
PPS The one liner from Pooley's is the worst I have seen.....it implies that you need a SVFR to fly within a control zone.
:eek:

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]

[Warped Factor]

FBW,

PPS The one liner from Pooley's is the worst I have seen.....it implies that you need a SVFR to fly within a control zone.

Might I suggest you re read it, it seems clear enough to me. It is basically saying that if you would otherwise have to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules inside the Control Zone, whether that's because it is night, airspace classification or poor (below your VFR/VMC minima) weather, you can request SVFR instead.

The important point being SVFR only really comes into the equation when, for whatever reason, your only other option would be IFR.

PS Care to name the 2 airfields, or even 1 of them as I can't think of many where you would need a SVFR to get in/out.

Bear in mind what has been said above. SVFR is only available (well, that's not strictly true, you could request a SVFR clearance out of/into a Class D Zone in CAVOK weather, but you'd be daft to do so :)) in conditions that would otherwise require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.

So, one airfield has a rather large Class A Control Zone around it and twin parallel runways.

The other one is a few miles to the south of the first one and has a nice Class D Zone around it. So SVFR clearances might be offered/issued at night or in poor weather to appropriate (ie unable to comply with the Instrument Flight Rules) traffic.

Subject to the weather minima mentioned previously and any pilot licence/rating weather restrictions.

WF.

Edited a couple of times to try and clarify it a bit more. Failing miserably I think ;)

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Warped Factor ]

[ 10 August 2001: Message edited by: Warped Factor ]

[Flybywyre]

Warped Factor..........
What a laugh you've given me :D
I'm not sure that you understand SVFR as well as you think that you do..BUT..You're not alone. I sometimes think I am the only person in the world that fully understands SVFR and knows how to spell proper when posting :)
I'm afraid I'm going to have to say goodbye to you and your mate "Bookworm"....on this thread anyway, I think enough people have now been confused and left a shaddow of their former selves. As this topic comes along about every 3 months it won't be long before we are at it again.
Regards
FBW

[bookworm]

WF

Looks like we (and our assorted licences and ratings) will just have to wallow on in our own ignorance. :)

Bookworm

PS Thanks for the pick up on the generic SVFR minimum vis -- I had 1500 m in my mind but you're right: it's 1800 m.

[Warped Factor]

FBW,

I always thought I understood the subject well enough to pass various licence, rating and validation exams over the past 10 or 15 years. Never mind subsequently issuing probably hundreds of SVFR clearances in my time.

But then you didn't lose exam marks for incorrect spelling, maybe that's how I sneaked through ;)

Till the next time......

WF.

[B clam]

We used to depart LPL SVFR after practising approaches when doing a work up for an IR. Our only reason for this was that it was great fun flying not ABOVE 1500' down the Mersey in a hawk! VFR/IFR departures were an option but less fun! :)