A lot of pilots leaving the forums

[IO540]

A number of people I know have commented on this recently.

Going back about 5+ years, there were a lot of what one might describe as 'serious' threads on forums. Here and Flyer, though IMHO Flyer has gone downhill a lot lately. Significantly the same decline is evident on other pilot forums in the USA.

There are also two 'members only' pilot forums I occassionally read and both have gone the same way, since they started in approx 2002. One of them (in the USA) has gone from very good tech content to a dozen individuals posting mostly banal questions, answered mostly by one individual (who owns the site). The other is still OK but is reduced to the same few people posting.

There seems to be no doubt that the majority of the old timers have simply vanished.

Obviously they haven't all died, so where are they?

The serious owner-pilots seem to have a low churn rate; you don't buy a plane, perhaps get an IR etc and then after sweating on all that for years, developing a capability to go places, chuck it in because you are bored. These people are still out there, flying... especially looking at those I know personally. I reckon 1/3 of those I have known over the last 10 years have stopped flying - partly due to medicals (heart attacks mainly) and partly due to major financial issues.

Maybe the internet (Usenet e.g. rec.aviation.* 10+ years ago, and the www forums taking over since then) has provided a means of discussion but after the standard topics have been covered a dozen times, people lose interest. And the very static nature of the owner-pilot population means that when they lost interest, there was nobody around to replace them.

And non-owner-pilots tend to give up very fast anyway, because there is significant hassle in flying and they have little to keep them motivated.

It is more difficult to keep going in Europe than the USA because of its much higher barriers to utility value of GA, but the same has happened in the USA.

It is certainly an interesting social phenomenon that you might have a one-off wave of interest which then passes.

[Fuji Abound]

A most interesting thread.

I find I am falling into the camp you talk about. I will be every interested to see what others think.

[maxred]

I feel the threads and forums replicate what is going 'on' in the field, and on a wider the scale the social landscape. Individuals yearn for the 'way it was'. I am one of them, Ask me and I will say that flying/social/interaction was a lot more fun a few years ago, not so sure now. I own and operate two aeroplanes, wonderfull bits of kit, and truly enjoy them, however, the clutter surrounding aviation today is getting in the way. EASA/LAA/FAA/ et al. I also look at some of these forums, and this is great, generalisation, fewer people seems to now what they are talking about. The 'old' timers appear to be scoffed at, especially in these forums where experience sometimes does not count for a lot. Just my thoughts.

[vanHorck]

I would not be surprised if some of the in-fighting between the various "specialists" on these fora leads to people giving up. :ouch:

Also not rarely when newcomers first post is a question, invariably there will be a die-hard who points them to the search engine with little or no compassion. ouch..... :ugh:

This hard direct hit attitude may scare off the newcomers.

Especially on the Private Flying I have no doubt the economic recession must be biting..... less student pilots = less PPRUNE readers?:{


I for one am still waiting for IO (is that a Walt Disney character??) to start a blog on GA.... I'll subscribe because he s hard hitting opinionated and knowledgeable at the same time, much better than the "let's protect the advertiser" traditional mags. :ok::ok::ok:

[maxred]

I'll expand further on that. A group of us flew from a local GA airport, great fun , impromptu barbecues etc, meals at the local chinese, then off flying again till dark. Life was good. Then the airport owner, hiked the rents up, a few left, then the airport owner erected 'security fencing', then the airport owner closed the airfield at 5.00, instead of the 8.00 deal, then no one could get a key, 'security reasons', a few more left, then some went financially bust, then some drifted to microlights - result a couple of 'hardened owners' left wondering where all the fun went.
Perhaps the hire and fly guys just do not want that hastle, whereas the hardened owners, stick it out, frustrated maybe, but are still there. The forums and columns where people air their views will dwindle in content in a scenario as I described above. I have a dozen more of these tales, but I think you get the drift

[vanHorck]

Maxred

I agree...... Gone are the days of a BBQ between the planes in the hanger.....

[maxred]

Yep, they banned the bbq's, then the airfield cafe went bust:confused::confused:Still did not let us make our own.

[IO540]

You had BBQs between planes in a hangar???

No wonder they banned it. I would have banned that myself :=

Next you will be telling me you drained some avgas to get the BBQ started :)

But, joking apart, I do not think that the level of technical forum contributions does indeed mirror the wider social scene in GA. My experience, looking at people I know, is that most "serious" pilots do not mix socially, hang around the airport bar, etc. I for sure don't mix locally (there is no social scene where I am based, unless one is a particularly sad case) although I do fly to meet up with loads of pilots, UK and abroad.

Sure there is a lot of hassle in GA, which does constantly grind at one's enthusiasm for flying, but as I said earlier this is not reflected in how many of pilots I know personally have chucked in flying for good. Most haven't. But they have chucked in pilot forums - assuming they were on them to start with, which the majority never were.

[vee-tail-1]

Hmmnn This is very topical for me. Having enjoyed owning a Robin ATL for 10 years, and flown it to France a couple of times, plus many local bimbles, airshows etc.

The coming of EASA effectively grounded the aircraft, and resulted in 14 months of monumental struggles with paperwork, CAMOs, and burocrats.
Now the ATL has a non-expiring EASA C of A and a new ARC, and is ready to fly again. Plus I have found a loophole that allows me to continue maintaining the aeroplane myself regardless of the EASA part M nightmare.

But the insurance needs to be renewed, my aircrew medical needs to be done, my rusty flying requires some time with an instructor, and the aeroplane having spent all that time sitting in a hanger gathering dust and rust is now an unknown as regards safety.

My enthusiasm is low, there is a 'so what' feeling following on from the pleasure of 'beating the system' and winning the battle with authority.

I am close to giving up flying, which seems incredible given a lifetime of doing so, and remembering all the adventures and experiences that flying has provided me.

Ah well perhaps the joy and enthusiasm for flying will come back, but the bills and fees and shelling out of more and more money sure don't help. :ouch:

[Molesworth 1]

Many of the more vicious and arrogant "expert" posters seem to have given up which is not a bad thing. Fortunately many of the more helpful ones remain.

It takes a bit of creativity to start a thread which creates some interest. Many subjects have been done to death numerous times and if one returns numerous times only to find the same old boring threads one couldn't be bothered.

As to the actual flying. I am one renter who has no intention of giving up anytime soon. Doing something new is important and takes a bit of research and imagination.

It also helps once you get to know the staff at the flying club.

[Fake Sealion]

For what its worth......

Since joining these fora a few years back, I have drifted from Group A to modern 3 axis microlights cos it offers me more (double) hours in the air for my budget. I am an NPPL and intend to stay that way.

Therefore......

Any threads on here or Flyer which embrace IR, night flying, EASA maintenance paperwork, the plat de jour at some French airfield, the merits of X versus Y Florida Flying school, the best model Arrer' to buy and the finer points of some exotic glass cockpit .....merit scant attention from me......:bored:

Add to this the aforementioned bickering and pontificating and I for one will soon be drifting away.........

[Rod1]

Flying wise I have never had it so good. Life on the strip is almost completely hassle free and the social side has got better, (inc BBQ’s etc). The total number of locally based aircraft is however down very markedly. I was shown round a friends aircraft parked at the local licensed airfield where I based my AA5 and was shocked by how few privately owned aircraft were left (down ½ to 2/3). I had put the reduction in interesting forum stuff down to fewer pilots and fewer pilot owners. I suspect things will pick up with the economic cycle, but my flying is far removed from IO540’s, which may have been impacted much harder by the recession.

Rod1

[Katamarino]

Interestingly, I find rather the same to our last contributor, the ersatz sea creature; but at the opposite end of the spectrum. The type of flying I really love is to hop in the plane in Rotterdam, and fly to Africa; but there are precious few other pilots who do this kind of GA flying! I'd love a forum catering to the more adventurous GA traveller, but by their nature, a lot of them seem to be rather independent loners who don't frequent such things.

[Ryan5252]

Add to this the aforementioned bickering and pontificating and I for one will soon be drifting away.........
Indeed. This is the reason why I myself no longer post topics and very rarely comment on a discussion on PPRuNe. There is a wealth of information contained on these fourms and I often go back and read topics from years ago - a virtual library straight from the horses mouth so to speak. Pilots with hundreds if not thousands of hours experience is a wealth of information to new-comers to the industry such as myself. However I have found that I invariably end up in a pissing match with same pilots because I may offer a different view, or because my question is stupid and I shouldn't be flying at all!! Therefore I conclude it is not worth the hassle to even bother posting the majority of my queries - if I cannot find an answer here on via google I will ask at my local club. Granted, the responses will be from a less broader ranger of pilot's many of whom share the same views as they have a similar background but this is my loss and I am prepared to go without.
The best one for me was when I was told via PM by a guru on here with thousands of hours flying seemingly every category of aircraft (and equally as many PPRuNe posts :rolleyes:) that I should end each of my posts with a disclaimer to read "Newly qualified PPL with little experience". Very true - but how will that experience be measured in 10 years time when, inevitability, the next generation of pilots take over?

Will I, and it seems others, be around to pass on my experience? Not virtually anyway!

Regards
Ryan
A newly qualified PPL with little experience

[IO540]

that I should end each of my posts with a disclaimer to read "Newly qualified PPL with little experience"

That is unbelievably arrogant. You should tell him to p1ss off.

Interesting comment about the "rough and tumble" though. This is a very old characteristic of the internet, made possible by anonymity. When "discussion" first appeared, it was in Usenet, which was famous for its "flame wars". But there was an easy solution for Usenet: you added that poster to a killfile, and you never saw their posts again. Sadly this is not possible on web forums, which all thus have a moderator who basically does that job. Also Usenet had no PM mechanism; one used emails.

However I think most posters learnt to ignore the idiots and still got value out of it. If you don't feed the trolls, they go away. This applies here too.

[Pianorak]

And yet there are right now 207 (67 remembers & 140 guests) active users logged in – and that's just the “Private Flying” forum. What are they all doing? Presumably taking in the words of wisdom posted "by the few"? :confused:

[Mark1234]

But there was an easy solution for Usenet: you added that poster to a killfile, and you never saw their posts again. Sadly this is not possible on web forums

Oh yes it is... click on the username, view public profile, then in nearish the top, on the right is a link to "add this user to your ignore list" or something similar :)

[Miroku]

As an NPPL with 200 hours I've found this forum to be amazingly useful. Questions are often asked which I've thought 'I wonder what the answer to that is'?

Having plucked up the courage to ask one or two questions, yes I did get some rather stroppy answers from the 'professionals' but enough other folk gave me the info I needed.

I've learn't a heck of a lot and have recommended the site to others.

[SNS3Guppy]

I began to notice a distinct drop in interest in aviation in general, about 20 year or so ago. I remember as a kid that aviation and airplanes were magic. The toy section of stores were full of model airplanes. Airshows were popular, and well attended. I was an active Civil Air Patrol cadet, where we joined for our nearly insatiable desire to fly and be around airplanes.

About 20 years ago, though, I noticed that the toy sections at the store contained few models, and what ones there were, were cars. Boats. The odd spaceship. But airplanes? Few and far between.

I was flying cadets as a Cadet Orientation Pilot on the weekends. In the CAP, cadets were awarded six orientation flights, in association with their rank advancements (the cadet program is somewhat like the Boy Scouts, but with airplanes, and is an Air Force volunteer auxilliary). Cadets couldn't be bothered to show up for the free flight instruction...it didn't cost them a dime except for their time and getting to the airport...but they'd have parties to go to, friends to see, and no time to fly.

Recently on one of the aviation web boards I visited, a discussion was in play about aviation history in the Pacific in WWII. When I was younger, it was second nature to have read everything one could find on that material. Anything from Otto Lilienthal to Sputnik...it was all fair game. I was amazed at kids that couldn't recognize airplanes by their outline or sound, and who didn't look up when they heard an airplane fly overhead. On this web board, though, most participants had never heard of Tinian, or about much of the Pacific war. They didn't know the airplanes, the names, the places. I was amazed.

Who doesn't see Douglas Bader as a hero, and know his story? Is this possible?

I do understand when a private pilot tells me he "used to fly." Flying is expensive. It's one thing to have a clear goal in mind when one is working toward one's Private, or toward one's Instrument rating. When that's accomplished, however, it's hard for many to justify the exorbitant costs of flying. I've always maintained that the hardest part of flying is paying for it. If that's true, the hardest part of learning to fly after paying for it is continuing to pay for it after one has achieved certification.

I own a large number of firearms. I've used them at work and in play most of my life. I've been an avid shooter and reloader for a very long time. However, lately I have little time to shoot. Ammunition in the USA has become nearly prohibitively expensive. I used to participate a lot in various firearms websites. Of late, however, I drop in occasionally, but I find it more aggravating than therapeutic in general. It's like being hungry and standing outside a diner window, looking in at the food. I suspect it's the same for many who want to fly, and can't. Playing on web boards and talking about the flying they can't do is frustrating, like rubbing salt in a wound. I think that sees the loss of many who would otherwise stay for the camaraderie, if for nothing else.

When I was flight instructing, I worked extremely hard to interest people in taking flying lessons. I towed an airplane through the longest parade in the country. I gave presentations at colleges and high schools. I towed banners advertising flying. I put up flyers, took out ads. I took an airplane apart and put it together in a mall as part of a display. I held ground schools, sold scenic rides to encourage people to learn, did all sorts of things to bring people into flying. I seldom left the airport, often sleeping in a volkswagon van behind a hangar before returning to fly more.

That level of enthusiasm and drive can only be maintained for so long. I managed to keep it going for about 20 years. I find myself still very much in aviation and driven by it, but not with the same fire as before. Part of my drive today isn't being so enamored with flying that I can think of nothing else, but that it's what I do; it's my employment. For those who don't have that pushing them along, then flying becomes largely a very expensive hobby. That requires justification, and any time a luxury or hobby must be justified, it's found being constantly weighed in the scales...and stands at risk of being tossed aside.

I think its a combination of these things, sometimes individually, sometimes severally, that leads to people falling away. There has always been a high turnover in student starts and people who enter flying and then leave. Perhaps the reason it's more pronounced today, or at least more noticeable, is that we have considerably fewer student starts today. We've still got many who come and go, but much fewer who start, and subsequently even less who stay.

Over the last couple of years I've known a number of professional pilots who elected to leave the business. Pilots who were once very dedicated, but who found themselves unable to get work for months, sometimes nearly two years...and left to pursue other vocations. None of them left happily or with any desire to leave...most drifted reluctantly and unhappily into a cubicle, or classroom, or some other place where they always regretted not being able to fly. It's not just private pilots. It's everybody. So long as the economy suffers, people suffer, and certainly aviation (a leading economic indicator and one of the first casualties of a poor economy) will suffer right along with it.

[IO540]

I don't buy the argument that most of the old-time pilots have stopped flying.

As I said earlier, most of those I know, here in the UK, are still flying.

There has always been a large churn rate in GA. The barriers to entry are quite low at the PPL level, and a lot of people go into it just for a laugh, and I would expect those to be severely affected by the economy (both ways). But I am talking about long term pilots.

Sure some people have stopped flying. But what I see across the forums is something like a 90% disappearance.

[thing]

Got to agree with Guppy on what he says about young people not being as air minded as we were. It was a big deal even getting near an aircraft when I was a kid never mind flying in one. I think cheap air travel (not that I'm against it) has eroded some of the magic that goes with flying. People think no more of climbing aboard an aeroplane than they do the local bus downtown.
I was brought up on tales of derring do by the air forces of WWI and II, all of those names from the B of B, Bader, Tuck, Kent and many more, I could probably still describe the combats they were in. I work with young kids and especially with this being the 70th anniversary of the B of B I've been asking them what they know about aviation history. Zilch basically. I suppose we're getting old. It's not that we were taught about it and they weren't, it's just that every kid at my school was mad about planes and could recite the cruising speeds of our V bombers and SAC aircraft like they were reciting the Lord's Prayer.
I didn't fly until I was 20 years old, an hour's local in a Condor from Cranwell Flying Club. I can remember every second of it even though it was 34 years ago. Flying lessons were 7 quid an hour at Cranwell then and I couldn't afford it.....
Glory days indeed.

It always struck me as well that there were very few young pilots at my gliding club, by young I mean under 30. Gliding is cheaper than playing golf (I know being a sufferer of both) and there are plenty of young folk on the golf course.

In fact I've just opened my 1960 Observer's book of aircraft at a random page and got the Grumman F11F-1 Tiger. It looks superb. They don't even make military aircraft that look good anymore do they. Even the smell of the pages in the book makes me all nostalgic. Time to shut up I think.

[IO540]

young people not being as air minded as we were

That's been a long term trend for many years now.

Life has a lot more distractions today.

There are kids who are really into flying though. I have a 14 year old son who is like that. Planes are his whole life. And I have a 17 year old son who goes around with an Ipod in his ears and everything has to be 'cool'.

[douglas.lindsay]

Wow! I'm one who grew up at the wrong time for learning all those old stories, and just did a bit of searching for the likes of Douglas Bader. I've clearly missed out! Anybody got any good books they would recommend on, eg, WW1 / WW2 aviation?

FWIW, I'm one of those who doesn't do a whole lot of socialising alongside my flying - simply because, in my case, my young family barely leaves enough time to get airborne, never mind anything else. But that will change in due course. Maybe there are a few folks like me who have started, but are only going to find their way onto the social scene in another 5-10 years?

As regards forums quietening down, I'd think that was bound to happen - and it's not limited to aviation. I suspect that the level of posting over the last 10-15 years was higher mostly because the whole forum scene was relatively new, at least for the wider public who weren't geeky enough for the likes of Usenet. Not such a significant indication of interest in aviation as the number of planes parked (or missing) from the apron - which at least for my club seems to be pretty high.

[douglas.lindsay]

Heh, just noticed I have as many posts as years in my age now!

Rats, I've spoiled it now, haven't I? I'll have to wait a year before I say anything else... :8

[mary meagher]

Hello, thing! Your gliding club is in Lincoln? Chris Rollings always said there are no thermals East of the M1.....

I am so sorry that old timers on these forums think that interest has declined.
It seems a wonderful way of yakking to fellow pilots across the miles, and asking questions of ATC, and putting in my two cents without being flamed (not often, anyway) even in the professional forums.....and when I joined I knew so little about the internet I was too ignorant to sign up with a mystery name, so you all know where to find me, and I have to be careful what I say...

Surely the economic downturn makes one question priorities. No doubt about that.

BUT can I ask for your help please? I am making a list, with the approval of the BGA, of power planes that have tow hooks that are not necessarily owned by gliding clubs.....perhaps somebody reading this has one and would like to add his pride and joy to the list? Because that is the only way I can continue to own an airplane, pulling up gliders. Very challenging and a lot of fun. PM if you prefer.

[SNS3Guppy]

Anybody got any good books they would recommend on, eg, WW1 / WW2 aviation?

Reach for the Sky by Paul Brickhill. It's the story of Douglas Bader. It's the kind of story that makes one think twice about saying "I can't."

"The Proficient Pilot" series by Barry Schiff are some excellent collections of articles about flying in general, very pertinent to the private arena.

[douglas.lindsay]

we actually had several history lessons specifically covering the Battle of Britain

Our history department wasn't very exciting... yawn man, it still makes me sleepy just thinking about it. If only they had told us about the Battle of Britain...

Thanks for the book suggestions, I'm orff to Amazon right now! :ok:

[Pace]

Guppy

Douglas Bader?

Loved this quote from the great man

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

It's the kind of story that makes one think twice about saying "I can't."

And I love this one (not by Douglas Bader)
"Unless you push the limits you will never find what lies beyond".

Pace

[JEM60]

I ate, slept and breathed aeroplanes from the first time I saw one close to. I lived on the Welsh border, with only sheep for company. I longed to learn to fly. I looked up every time I heard one. Then I moved near to RAF Halton. The first thing I saw when getting off the bus was a T.21 Sedbergh glider. I had never seen a glider!!. Off to join the ATC, 3 years later, I was flying that same glider!! XN150 I believe. Loads of flying in various aircraft. Eventually had my own business, learnt to fly having previously been a sky diver. Gave up after 200 hours. It was taking me away from my young family for too long. End of my piloting.
My enthusiasm, for aircraft, however, never once wavered, not even to this day. I travelled the world to Airshows, Museums etc. Duxford is almost my second home. My wife said if you can't beat aeroplane people, you might as well join them, and she now works at Duxford on Show days. For me, once an aeroplane person, always an aeroplane person. It has so far been a great journey. I've loved it and aeroplane peoples' company so much, not to mention other passions like sunshine, motor racing, pretty women......................

[batninth]

My two penn'orth on the changing nature of these forums....

10, possibly 15 years ago, our access to information was mainly face to face, or via reading books & magazines. If you wanted to know something you asked people or went to get-togethers where people presented & talked. I have some "old" (early 90s) editions of the PFA magazine and the amount & nature of the information in them is vastly better than the "sound bite" stuff we get now (Sorry BH if you're reading, Light Aviation is still a good read, but the old stuff is just directed at a more understanding audience).

I can equate this state of affairs to my area of business, computing, where we used to meet up every quarter & be presented with the latest & greatest technology news by experts just back from the US.

Then in the late 90s we had the explosion of the internet, and people published data there. We no longer needed to wait for the meeting every quarter as what we wanted was posted up on web sites. In fact we saw the information at the same time as the "experts", and the expert became the guys who could read the fastest.

Move forward into 2003 onwards and we get the rise of using social networking, like forums. Everyone can contribute and they do, you end up with an active place like PPRUNE where the knowledge & experience can be shared. Now, not only can I get information from ROTAX web site about the 582, but I can ask other people who share their experience.

But of course all that experience gets stored away, and now we have these super search engines. If I want to see the collected wisdom on the Rotax 582 I can ask Google or Bing and then collect the postings from the previous 10 years.

We don't need to interact now because we can find most of it already. All we have left now is "News", and that comes at us raw as it happens.

I guess its inevitable that places like these forums slow down, not necessarily because a lot of older pilots are walking away from flying in general but because their voice isn't being heard now...which is a great pity. We all think we're experts now, yet the real experience & expertise is actually in danger of being lost.

[SNS3Guppy]

Loved this quote from the great man

"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men."

True enough. Bader was one whom I always felt that though I could spend several lifetimes attempting to follow the footsteps, I could never be worthy of walking in them.

Yeager's story is interesting and impressive, but I could never get past the arrogance.

I love reading Richard Bach.

[cjm_2010]

The 'old' timers appear to be scoffed at, especially in these forums where experience sometimes does not count for a lot. Just my thoughts.

IMO experience counts for everything. at 32 & 16 hrs I've got unlimited respect for those that have been flying longer than I could ever possibly hope to fly myself.

in surfing there's a saying - old dudes rule :cool:

[Molesworth 1]

end up in a pissing match with same pilots

or are they trolls posing as pilots?

Not so newly qualified with not that much experience but enough to know that pilots with lots of experience also talk rubbish sometimes:E

[Fuji Abound]

I started flying for the joy of flight. I had no idea why I wanted to fly, but knew I had wanted to fly from the days I was a kid. I was lucky. My parents flew me backwards and forwards across the Atlantic in the days it took 24 flying hours and half a dozen stops. I still recall the chief steward passing down the isle with a joint of roast beef on his trolley asking his passengers whether they preferred their beef rare or well done. My parents chide me to this day that when I saw the flaps extend I cried out the wings were falling off to their embarrassment and to the consternation of every other passenger. I was truly lucky. I was a spoilt kid that treasured his BOAC log book and gold wings!
*
I met a gentlemen a few years back at an airport in France who was still in charge of one of the few remaining airworthy Doves. He told the story of his early days flying the Atlantic. When a pilot reported he had lost an engine often it was meant in a literal sense. Fires were not uncommon. The bolts were sacrificially designed to melt and the engine fall to the sea below. The spare engines at Croydon (was it really Croydon) were hanging from the gantry by chains and really could be fitted in hours. Was it apocryphal, did he embellish his stories with a hint of poetic license, or a large dollop – I don’t know, but I guess every pilot was a pioneer.
*
Flying for me has turned out a little like my childhood passage. I still recall the thrill of my first solo, as I am sure we all do. I think the only flying experience to ever exceed my first solo was the first time I did a loop, but there have been many other highlights along the way.
*
One highlight, strangely perhaps, was finding PPRuNe, a forum from which I have learnt so much. In my early days on PPRuNe everyone seemed like an expert, the banter more forthright than it is today, the personalities larger than life and the “put downs” often merciless.
*
Times change. I still love flying, but a flight around the local cabbage patch for flying sake does not hold the same sense of achievement – sadly perhaps, because I can’t help feeling we should think ourselves lucky every single time we take to the air. So the cabbages are rarely a feature these days; I fly for business whenever I can, I fly to go places that time would not otherwise permit, I fly to take the kids backwards and forwards to University and I fly so I don’t forget what it is like to turn myself up side down once in a while.
*
In the same way PPRuNe has changed. The personalities are different, even if many of the questions are the same. The banter is different and if anything the personalities more reserved.
*
My instructor friend tells me he still has a full dairy; he sees the same faces each year, the only difference being each year they each know another year has slipped by. Yet my eyes tell me things have changed. The parking spaces are no longer full with aircraft. The days when “you are number 8 to land” become much fewer, and are now seldom heard, the PFA rally at Cranfield with a 1,000 aircraft seems a distant memory. Airfields have gone, and will, I know, not be replaced. Many of those that remain have changed.
*
And then there is the economy. People are counting the pennies, flying for flying sake is a pleasure and a luxury and so inevitably other priorities will determine how the pennies are spent. Enough may remain for a permit aircraft, but for many, I suspect these times may challenge their financially ability to continue flying. They also challenge the way we use our time. Bosses expect more form their employees and there is less time to pontificate on PPRuNe.
*
I am rambling, but I think there are any number of reasons why some of us feel PPRuNe has changed, has perhaps evolved. I feel I will contribute less, although that remains to be seen. I hope I have contributed usefully to PPRuNe over the years. I hope that the next “generation” of pilots will get as much fun out of reading some of the contributions on here as hopefully we all have. With regret I think as others private flying will become more difficult for many to justify not just because of the cost but for a host of other reasons that we have already discussed. That we will all be a little poorer in consequence I also regret. I hope people will continue to contribute to PPRuNe with as much enthusiasm as they can muster. I hope we don’t end up with more people watching in the wings than putting finger to key because then not only will the contributors dwindle but so will the watchers. I hope PPRuNe is still going in ten years time. Most of all I hope GA continues to flourish even if it must also evolve to meet the challenges we all face. I think in its way PPRuNe is a reflection of what is happening to general aviation but PPRuNe's decline is more pronounced.
*
Guppy - Illusions, now there is a book, I still romantise the description of that biplane approaching so slowly that it seemed to defy gravity.

[eharding]

Bader was one whom I always felt that though I could spend several lifetimes attempting to follow the footsteps, I could never be worthy of walking in them.

I suspect that had you met him, and told him of your proposition to follow his footsteps, he'd have done some particularly tricky tin-leg footwork to ensure you broke an ankle in the process of trying to follow.

He did have a bit of a reputation of being a tad on the grumpy side in the postwar years - but I rather hope the sporadic reports of traces of pipe-smoke being detected in the White Waltham clubhouse by the early crew are indeed caused by the shade of the old warrior sparking up in the small hours.

Regarding the thread topic, it would be interesting to have IO540 point to what he regards as vintage quality threads here and elsewhere, compared to the fare he is seeing on the forums today. If he could talk Pprune or Flyer into publishing figures on forum activity, even better - obviously, we could skew those overnight by starting topics on the subject of "Overhead Join - what sort of cackwit can't grasp the concept?", "GPS - navigation crutch or clubhouse crotch padding?" and the evergreen favourite "Inverted in the club Arrow at 600 feet - do I deserve quite such a rollicking?"

[eharding]

I started flying for the joy of flight....

Blimey, old son. That font size made my monitor emit an audible 'twang' when your post appeared. I know that as we get older, smaller text is hard to read at short distance, but they could read that post from across the road.

[Pitts2112]

An interesting thread and observation. My reasons for not having posted much at all in a long time are several, I think. I had a roasting from one or two on another forum a few years back which left me thinking they weren't interested in a mature debate but rather a character assassination. I was probably very thin-skinned, but since I posted on fora for fun, and that didn't qualify as such, I just lost interest in posting very much. Since then, the economy has stopped my flying completely so I've lost touch with what's going on in the field. I'm guessing that's a very large driver in the overall decline in activity.

And, finally, I guess I haven't felt like I've had too much to say on too many topics. And, I have to admit, I've moved my daily reading to JB which seems much more entertaining. I don't post there, either, but I do read it every day.

[Pace]

Regarding the thread topic, it would be interesting to have IO540 point to what he regards as vintage quality threads here and elsewhere, compared to the fare he is seeing on the forums today. If he could talk PPRuNe or Flyer into publishing figures on forum activity, even better -

It is only PPRUNE who will have the stats on how busy the forums are today compared with previous years?

Yes the same topics rear their heads! Some generate a lot of passion. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of us post on purpose to generate
controversy and hence discussion, I know I do :\
Then leave it to the really knowledgable people here to fill the cracks.

Some post a lot and with such frequency day and night that it makes you wonder on their backgrounds. Real commercial pilots filling time in hotels, Single Pilots filling time. Pilots with a lot of downtime. Pilots logging in at their place of work???

I can remember being heavely involved in MS flight sim forums years back and marvelling at one Pilot? whos knowledge was immense and who spoke with such authority. He turned out to be a 12 year old with an expertise in googling and pasting.

We never really know who is at the other end.

I have met a handful for real one who has become a good friend and drinking/girl ogling partner in London and who has flown as a co pilot with me in corporate jets.
Maybe we should meet each other more and put a face to the elaborate names used.

Maybe PPRUNE should expand not just as a forum but as a representative to fight the causes we hold so dear.

PPRUNE is already used by the media to get insights into aviation events from the ones who know THE PILOTS.
Its a shame those views cannot be fought through the correct channels as expressed in pprune through pprune rather than dying in the threads.

Pace

[Whirlygig]

Well I don't post here very often because there is a good half dozen posters here who already know everything so my input is rarely wanted or required.

Reminds me of the expression ... "If I said I had a giraffe, they would have a box to put it in".

Cheers

Whirls

[Pilot DAR]

Probably like many, I stumbled upon PPRuNe while searching for something else not at all related to private flying. I found the private flying forum among the rest, and thought "wow, there's probably lots to learn here!".

Then.... I started feeling old as a pilot. I saw many subjects going by which I had considered, experienced, and survived already in my flying. Sure, there are a few new things which are quite interesting, particularly regulatory changes, and new technology, but often I found myself more with an answer, than a question.

During my growth as a pilot, countless people have very generously helped me in all kinds of ways. So many people have taken me along, and shown me something new, or otherwise given of themselves so that I might be a better, or at least surviving pilot. I owe it back...

Where are the "keeners"?.... those kids who will hang around the airport, and do anything to get into the air. I was one, and did very well by it. I have had my plane here at home for twenty years, and I have only had one kid have the initiative to come and ask to go flying. I figure that there must be keeners around PPRuNe so I'll try to offer my debt of experience back here.

This is the first and only forum in which I participate. Though I like to think that my efforts to share the experience, and encourage aviation are appreciated, Like everyone else here with a valid opinion, I have endured participants who post beyond their station in aviation. You read a number of posts from a person, which seem to have some elusive value, and then months later that person posts that they just took their first lesson!

Aside from the flying which forms a part of my work, my flying is generally very solitary - no clubs involved... Plane is at home, I use it like (often in place of) the family car. I am not commonly in an environment where I can share aviation with those coming into our industry. I suppose I should try harder!

We who have survived flying, have a duty to cheerfully encourage "keeners" and "newbees" without being demeaning or elitist to them. We have a further duty to share wisdom, which we have received or learned the hard way, to help them stay alive. Accidents cost everyone money, and cast a poor light on our industry. We don't need that, so we must do our part to promote safe aviation.

So, I'll hang in there for a while, if for no other reason, than to pay back the debt I owe, of experience. Every now and again, someone gets me wound up here. I just go away for a few days, and enjoy all of the tangible things in my life. But it will take a stronger force than the trolls, abrupt wannabe's and people who refer to my plane as a "spam can" here to drive me away....

I have sought out, and had the pleasure of meeting in person, several PPRuNer's. In each case, it was a totally delightful experience, and completley worth the effort! It is excellent experiences like those which make the occasional PPRuNe battle seem meaningless by comparision...

So for the new people here, and in our industry, welcome, and feel free to ask your questions, we really are here to be helpful. Just don't be suprized if we have an answer that you were not expecting, or do not like. Aviation can be rather unforgiving! (but I, for one, will try not to be rude!). For the oldtimers here.... well, I'm one of you - live with it!

[AdamFrisch]

Well, GA has a fundamental problem: every year less and less people join our ranks. You look at the statistics it's been a yearly decline since the post war years.

Mostly due to regulations and a general nannyficiation of everything and in all fields (not just aviation). Barriers keep getting raised constantly.

Only 20 years ago, I soloed after exactly 10hrs and had my PPL in my hand after about 43 hrs, and I was an average student. Today, it's probably closer to 70hrs for the average pilot. What's changed? Nothing. If anything, airspace classifications and navaids are easier today then they were then. It's just nannyficiation and angst from regulators to teachers.

Case in hand: Medical. Why even have a medical? What is the point? If you can see reasonably and hear reasonably, then that should be enough. Nobody can predict heart attacks anyway, so it's a feeble exercise. Again, nannyficiation, angst and self importance from vested interest groups.

We have to find a way of making the entry into the club easier. The LSA thing in the US is a good start, and I hope EASA's equivalent will be similar. But I would argue that even lessening the standards a bit for the PPL should be looked upon. 40-50hrs should be plenty, if it takes 70hrs then they're held to too tight standards, I think. I understand it's individual, but those last 20-30hrs probably scare away more than 50% of the potential students. That's a loss we can't afford. It's a license to learn, after all.

As for this forum, when I joined a couple of years ago it was (and still is) rather hostile. I'm tough-skinned now, so it doesn't bother me as much, but it can be very daunting for a new member. I'm also a member of a cinematography forum (as that's my business) and there mandatory registration with displayed name was the key to making that forum civil. I think it's a great idea that would work wonders here. I have nothing to hide and I'm also one of the very few who post under my own name. It's very easy to be derisive, arrogant and lecturing when you can hide behind anonymity.

[Pilot DAR]

Good points, Adam...Today, it's probably closer to 70hrs for the average pilot. What's changed? Nothing Well, maybe the requirements of, and nature of the instruction...

mandatory registration with displayed name was the key to making that forum civil. I think it's a great idea that would work wonders here. I have nothing to hide and I'm also one of the very few who post under my own name. It's very easy to be derisive, arrogant and lecturing when you can hide behind anonymity

Yes, I quite agree with this. When I registered, I believed (apparently wrongly, but then is was my first time at this) that it was intended that you not identify yourself, thus fulfilling the "anonymous" aspect of the forum. I apparently took this too literally.

I certainly believe that people woul dbe much more civil here, if everyone knew who everyone else is, or were face to face!

Maybe we should meet each other more and put a face to the elaborate names used I certainly agree, I'll be there if I can!

[SNS3Guppy]

Where are the "keeners"?.... those kids who will hang around the airport, and do anything to get into the air. I was one, and did very well by it. I have had my plane here at home for twenty years, and I have only had one kid have the initiative to come and ask to go flying.

I was an airport kid. I bicycled 15 miles to the airport every night after school let out as a kid, and scrubbed airplanes and begged rides. Anything to be around airplanes. If I couldn't wrangel a ride, I made do with sitting in them, washing them, waxing them, fueling them, working on them.

I think kids today are repulsed a lot by the cost; flying is out of reach of people these days. Kids have a lot of things competing for their attention. We didn't have computers. Kids today have unbelievable entertainment systems at their fingertips anywhere they go. As a kid I built gliders out of straws and paper and thread. Today kids plug in a game cartridge and shoot people on a computer screen. When I rode somewhere in a car as a kid, I'd take an E6B and practice with it doing distances as we drove, playing with wind triangles, and reading flying books. Kids these days drive somewhere with their eyes glued to a monitor screen, watching Shrek or The Karate Kid, or whatever is big right now. They hardly seem to look out the window.

It used to be that time spent aloft couldn't be deducted from one's lifespan; one couldn't get enough flying. Put kids on air airplane these days and it's "are we there yet?"

The most common sentiment I hear from kids these days? "I'm bored."

What ever happened to afternoons daydreaming about flying with birds?

Probably gone along with reading books. Then again, what ever happened to paper? I don't even get paper charts in the airplane, any more.

I miss paper. I miss the days when kids still wanted to fly.

[IO540]

You look at the statistics it's been a yearly decline since the post war years.

Speaking from memory, I think there was a gradual growth in GA up to the boom reaching its peak in the 1970s, and then a decline.

It was that boom which got various firms to get into GA (Rockwell e.g.) who then dropped it as soon as the numbers fell down.

I've been flying only 10 years but the graphs in the back of FTN suggest a 1/3 decline in new PPL issues over the past decade. What this says about the flying pilot population I haven't got a clue. There may be a connection but probably only a weak one because the vast majority of new pilots give up fast. The factors which keep long-term pilots hanging in there are probably different to those which control new PPL issues.

The CAA says there are 20k with valid medicals. What was that figure say 10 years ago?

However, I don't believe pilot population size is closely related to forum activity, which has dropped off massively over the past 2 years or so.

[thing]

'Hello, thing! Your gliding club is in Lincoln? Chris Rollings always said there are no thermals East of the M1.....'

Hi Mary. Haven't glid (new verb there) for a while. Used to fly at Winthorpe at Newark but that closed down and Newark moved to Darlton which is just west of the Trent. Been doing a degree for the last few years so haven't had time to spit basically but all that comes to an end next year ho ho and I'll be back in the straps. Either back gliding or doing my PPL. However it dismays me a bit to hear about the number of people who jack in powered flying after they have their licence. Some heavy decision making going on here at the moment.

As for thermals east of the M1, my highest thermal flight from Newark was 8,300 (I still have the baro trace in my flight bag) which isn't bad for UK. We never got wave, or if we did I wasn't there and obviously there's no ridge soaring in Lincolnshire 'cos there ain't no ridges...........other than that the airspace restrictions around Lincolnshire and local counties are pretty light and the MATZ are getting fewer by the year, apparently Coningsby is the next big one to go. So in general the flying was not too bad.

[IanSeager]

However, I don't believe pilot population size is closely related to forum activity, which has dropped off massively over the past 2 years or so.

I'm not sure what you are using to measure that. We use Google Analytics over the road (http://forums.flyer.co.uk) and the numbers continue to show strong growth.

Ian

[IO540]

As per my first post Ian, I am referring to serious discussions, not the total # of posts per week etc. I am sure the latter is holding up OK, with loads of "pub"-type discussions. So, e.g. advertising click-through should be doing fine.

[Fake Sealion]

If you care to look "over the road" there is a thread running now about a recent landing at Duxford which perhaps sums up why some pilots drift way from submitting posts there.......

[MichaelJP59]

I've used internet forums/groups since it was possible to do so, from the early days of Compuserve and Cix (the wider internet then was only for university types), email lists, then newsgroups, which actually nearly all became useless because of flaming/spamming/trolling, then forums such as this which have evolved to be great resources.

As someone else said, the old way of doing things was to join a society for your interest, then receive newsletters and perhaps go to a meeting once or twice a year.

There is bound to be a lot of repetition, but in a way that's a healthy sign, as new people are joining and obviously the same issues come up (OHJ, crosswind technique, GPS, Permit/CofA and so on).

As for young people starting flying, that's a different problem, and I think one of the biggest problems is the breathtaking cost of learning to fly. Some may dismiss this, but when you have to spend well over £100 for an hour's flying lesson, you have to be super keen to keep going, especially as it takes quite a few of those lessons before it really starts getting fun.

[flybymike]

Far too few people keep their posts concise, relevant, informative and succinct. Far too many see a post as their opportunity for 15 minutes of fame. Whether it be small arms fire at the helm, boringly long life stories of one's great experience and expertise in any subject which might come up, or simply a mind numbing ability to copy and paste reams of sub paragraphs from the AIP, all of these amount to loss of interest from the reader.
Tentative early posters could also do without smug, snide remarks from the "search police" or those who see themselves as Forum Gods. Such remarks can be genuinely upsetting.

[Ryan5252]

Today kids plug in a game cartridge and shoot people on a computer screen

I hate to be the bearer of more bad news - but the days of plugging in a cartridge ended at least 15 years ago! Now its more like blu-ray DVD discs and the like replacing the cartridges of old.

[dublinpilot]

Perhaps it's simply to do with your own experience level?

When you are an SPL, or a new PPL (or simply new to any particular type of flying) you can some here and see a vast array of knowledge. That knowledge is enticing, and interesting, and you will find those discussions infomative and 'quality'.

As you get more experienced, you start to realise that what you thougth was knowledge and experience isn't always so, and accordingly your perception will tell you that the amount of 'quality' has decreased. But in actual fact all that has happened is that you are better able to recognise the quality from the ill informed.

Also what is interesting to you first time around, can get old and boring when you've seen the same discussion a number of times over. It might have been an interesting and quality discussion to you first time, yet to those who were old hands then it would have seems boring and drivel.

Experience can change perception significiantly. ;)

[Pace]

Also what is interesting to you first time around, can get old and boring when you've seen the same discussion a number of times over. It might have been an interesting and quality discussion to you first time, yet to those who were old hands then it would have seems boring and drivel.

DublinPilot

That is presuming that we come here to ask questions or clarify uncertainties.
That is part of these forums but only part.

Is the IMCR going to be shelved? What is happening with an achievable EASA PPL IR? Are our freedoms being removed? Is Burocracy and the BIG state adding to our costs ? Is there proposed new legislation which is unfair to us and how do we make our concerns heard? Why is EASA trying to ban N reg?
These are all subjects that generate the larger threads.

The problem we have is even in those long threads we air our concerns and grievances then the threads die until the next time?

In aviation we have no real common voice Yes there are bodies that try to protect our interests but they are fragmented.

Should PPRUNE be more connected and communicative with those bodies so that our voice is heard better and with more voice?

That is a role which PPRUNE could play more.

Yes "what do I do about carb icing" will come up time and time again but there could be a more exciting role for PPRUNE than that?

Pace

[Rod1]

“Should PPRuNe be more connected and communicative with those bodies so that our voice is heard better and with more voice?”

And which of the many voices would that be? If people on here want to make a difference then join LAA/AOPA and get involved in the thick of it. I can say from experience that it will take up substantial amounts of time, but can be quite rewarding. The problem is that what might be good for an LAA strip flyer may be bad for a corporate AOPA member. Also, this forum is not representative of recreational flying, with very low participation from the micro side and over participation from the IR high end (statistically).

Rod1

[IO540]

over participation from the IR high endI don't think so; I think the IR crowd has cleared off en masse in the last year or two - from both here and Flyer, and from other places I know of.

But I agree the ultralight/sports side is not represented here.

[SNS3Guppy]

I hate to be the bearer of more bad news - but the days of plugging in a cartridge ended at least 15 years ago!

If you say so. The last time I played a video game it was with an Atari console...asteroids, pac man, that sort of thing. The little ping pong paddles that moved up and down the sides of the screen...pong, I think it was.

These handheld games that kids have today, the playstation or gameboy or whatever, it's unlike what I think of as a video game, and it's very portable. No wonder kids are wrapped in their own world and lose sight of things like airplanes. They've already got their entertainment fix.

[Rod1]

“These handheld games that kids have today, the playstation or gameboy or whatever, it's unlike what I think of as a video game, and it's very portable. No wonder kids are wrapped in their own world and lose sight of things like airplanes. They've already got their entertainment fix.”

I have to say that this is a complete red herring as far as the UK number of pilots is concerned. “All” you have to do to revolutionise UK private flying is to solve the drop out rate. According to the mags etc 80% of the people who get a licence drop out in the first few years after qualifying. Work out how to reduce that to 70% and we would all notice the difference PDQ. The recession has eaten into the hard core who fly long term, which has made the situation worse.

Rod1

[IO540]

Yes, I have always said that if you could reduce by 1/10 the % of early dropouts then GA activity would probably double, with huge benefits to all.

There seem to be a number of fairly obvious things one could do, discussed here for ever and ever in the past, but none of them are going to happen all the time the PPL flight training business has no mandate to turn out pilots who can fly from A to B.

[Fake Sealion]

I don't think so; I think the IR crowd has cleared off en masse in the last year or two - from both here and Flyer, and from other places I know of.

But I agree the ultralight/sports side is not represented here.
Today 14:23

I agree. Perhaps there should be a new category in Pprune for us VLA/3 axis micro folk. There is a perception this is going to be a growth sub section of GA and its discussion topics will by definition be devoid of the "high end" complex tourer/IR/Florida flight School stuff which has no direct interest to this group of flyers.

There are of course LAA/BMAA fora, but it would be good to have a single point of reference & discussion in which Rod 1 for one will be preaching to the converted already:ok:

[Rod1]

“There seem to be a number of fairly obvious things one could do, discussed here for ever and ever in the past, but none of them are going to happen all the time the PPL flight training business has no mandate to turn out pilots who can fly from A to B.”

Now this is the point at which different parts of the UK flying community differ. IO will try to use the existing system to produce more IR pilots who can fly from A to B.

Some years ago, the old PFA CEO had a different solution. He wanted training from unlicensed strips, on permit aircraft by unpaid enthusiast instructors (think BGA 20 years ago). This would vastly reduce the cost of getting (and keeping) a licence and introduce the new PPL into a social rather than commercial environment. The training from unlicensed strips has just been won, training on permit machines is perhaps not far away, the LAA coaching system is working well and could potentially be expanded. Will the dots get joined up? I have no idea, as we now have a new CEO who may or may not agree with the original vision. The dropout rate amongst LAA owner / pilots is very low, the strip side of flying is expanding fast (my strip has tripled its number of aircraft over the last 5 years).

All the above would of course be day VFR only. Those of us who tour Europe for fun VFR say, so what, but others see this as a critical flaw. In my opinion, if we get and keep more pilots, we will end up with more IR pilots.

Rod1

[Pace]

And which of the many voices would that be? If people on here want to make a difference then join LAA/AOPA and get involved in the thick of it.

Rod

Totally agree with you but I wonder how many of the vociferous posters here are actually members of either of the above never mind getting involved in the thick of it? Not many is my guess.

Pace

[flybymike]

Over regulation is the killer for drop out rates.

We all survived for decades prior to Biennial reviews, 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc, all of which have brought no safety benefit and the increased cost and hassle simply drive people away from GA.

An earlier poster said why have medicals? The NPPL medical declaration has proved its worth (but is now under threat)
I am inclined to agree that the medical contribution to deaths and fatalities is minute, and you stand just as much chance of a heart attack in a car on the motorway where the consequences would more likely kill or injur far more people.

The best possible medical precaution is a natural sense of self preservation.

Trouble is, under EASA things are only going to get worse.

[IO540]

IO will try to use the existing system to produce more IR pilots who can fly from A to B.

Not at all.

An IR is a huge project, meaningless unless one is a [part] owner of a well equipped plane and has the time and money to sink into acquiring the capability and remaining current. You can nearly forget the casual self fly hire scene, for example, in most locations in the UK.

By teaching people to fly from A to B I am referring to the endless posts on the forums, and endless cases I find personally, where a pilot is unable to plan a route from say Goodwood to Norwich. This is inexcusable, since it renders the PPL license virtually worthless. The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.

You could try to make a case for a lower grade of license which doesn't require planning and navigation, but that doesn't really square up with inconvenient things like controlled airspace... Unfortunately "we" are all in the same boat now.

[Pace]

The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.

10540

When I undertook my PPL many moons ago in my naivety I imagined that once I held a shiny PPL I would be able to use an aircraft as I did a car but with the benefit of floating above all the traffic jams below.

Going through my PPL and turning up weekend after weekend only to be told that the winds were too strong, the visibility too low, the clouds too low etc that rose coloured glasses view of aviation soon vanished.

Now I have probably a 95% to 97% reliability factor of getting where I want to go in summer and winter which is probably better than in the car.

An aircraft is a form of transport like any other and has to compete as such to be of practical use.

But to be so the aircraft and the pilot have to be up to dealing with all the weather especially this country throws at them.

For many being a toy which you pull out on a sunny day is not enough!

Pace

[421C]

A lot of interesting themes here IO. To go back to your original question of why fewer "serious" threads.

I think there may be a number of themes at work. One has been identified as the one-off nature of internet forums being a "new" thing that many people got involved with, but over time, as with many new things, interest wanes and people drift away.

Another theme may coincide with the emergence of Internet pilot fora in the last decade. The 2000s were a period of change in GA, after a fairly stagnant period in the 90s. There were simply a lot of "serious" new topics to discuss
- new aircraft like the Cirrus (and new concepts like BRS) and diesel Diamonds
- new avionics, initially the GNSx30s and then the G1000
- new methods of navigation, everything from handhelds to GPS Approaches to PRNAV
- new regulatory issues like EASA

In the last couple of years, the pace of change has slowed a bit. Many of these topics are now mature. EASA has sort of settled, although I am sure there'll be another flurry of IMCr posting at some point. The recession has bitten into new aircraft development and a lot of projects have stalled/collapsed.

...perhaps there inherently fewer themes for "serious" threads at present?

The other inherent issue is that many "serious" topics are by definition specialised. GA often works well as a nice community, but when it comes to fora, it also fragments and tribalises very quickly. Rod1 thinks mainstream GA is over-represented compared to light sport flying. I think there is too much kneeboard/torch/hobby stuff and mainstream GA topics are a bit under-represented. To be honest, I am not terribly interested in the homebuilt perspective on every topic, and I am sure Rod1 isn't terriby interested in the certified perspective. It's the problem of an "all private GA forum". You gain a good volume of posters and readers, but most of the time you fail to please most of the people.

Also, an anonymous general forum is not ideal for a serious discussion. For example, if I were a Cirrus owner and I had a "serious" question, would I post it here? No. I'd get too much noise - the jibes that I must be a rich b*****d, the "Cirrus BRS and glass cockpit induce complacency" knee-jerk, the "certified aircraft are dinosaurs, fly a homebuilt"....etc etc etc. I see a lot of Cirrus aircraft around the UK and Europe, which is why I disagree with the "GA is declining" argument (the Cirruses are always flying too, so the airframe #s probably underrepresent the usage). But I imagine Cirrus owners join a Cirrus Pilots forum.

The problem is even worse on the main airline forum. I dip into it on occassion to read the pro pilot perspective on interesting issues or on an accident, but the pros are drowned out by hundreds of other posts and you give up wading through 50 page threads.

brgds
421C

[Dodgy Reckoning]

By teaching people to fly from A to B I am referring to the endless posts on the forums, and endless cases I find personally, where a pilot is unable to plan a route from say Goodwood to Norwich. This is inexcusable, since it renders the PPL license virtually worthless. The evident inability of so many fresh PPLs to go anywhere guarantees they will chuck it in almost right away.

IO,

To go back to the original question: I personally find this and the other places gold mines for practical flying, particularly when flying to a new destination. Sometimes what's written in the AIP or a flight guide is out of date, or just inaccurate and getting comments on an internet forums can help shed light on local custom & practice.

To give an example: I flew to Dinard this summer. Before I went I had a little search around the forums and picked up that one must knock on the door of the customs office to get attention if there's no-one around. There are no signs at the airport (that I could see) and it doesn't mention it in the French AIP entry for Dinard. Practical real-world experience from the internet community, without which I would probably have strolled through the terminal without properly clearing customs.

But I'm frequently put off contributing (particular on pprune) because of the tendency to criticise other pilots. How many threads have there been on: other pilots not reading NOTAMs, other pilots pressing on when they shouldn't, other pilots flying too big a circuit, other pilots flying too tight a circuit (i.e. cutting in), etc etc? (And I note, it's generally "other pilots"; the internet is populated solely by pilots who "always" display excellent airmanship and begin their posts "I always". Apart from me: I always consider myself fallible...;))

And to take the quote above. I'm sure you intended it as a well-meaning example to make your point. However, people like me will come to an internet forum to ask advice on routing A -> B, not because I can't plan a viable route; I can probably think of several. But I'm looking for local practical advice that might not be apparent from published information.

Phew, managed a post on pprune. :eek:

DR

[IO540]

Well done :ok: :)

Actually I rarely have a go at pilots who ask how to plan a route; I tend to question what should be done with (or to :) ) their instructor...

[Rod1]

“Rod1 thinks mainstream GA is over-represented compared to light sport flying.”

No that is not what I said at all!!! I said the Micro owners were missing (4500 owner pilots in the uk and not in decline) were missing and the IR high end was over represented (allegedly 1% of the pilot pool). “Mainstream GA” ie the traditional US built aircraft owner is well represented, but becoming less mainstream.

Rod1

[UAV689]

for me the thing that is putting me off flying is not the cost (i fly a single seater for about 15 quid per hour) it is the continual health and safety brigade, the jobsworths that make you wear a high vis jackets, people that sit in offices somewhere in Brussels that have never flown that think up new rules and practices just because it is their job to do so, not because of any safety reason or to make anything more efficient, and so it snowballs on...

A few weeks ago I was at my airfield where we flew during the week (unusal as we are a weekend gliding club) ATC were absolutely rediculous. During the weekend they are closed, we manage to cope sensibly all day long, liasing ourselves with other all other aircraft, all 100% safe.

During the week the ATC are open, in this week nothing could step on to the runway without their permission, one instructor walked on the 2 inches at the edge of the runway to keep his feet dry on a 5 meter walk to the launch point from where he parked the a/c and ATC radio'ed us to tell him off for walking on the runway, they were spying on him with bino's! During the whole week the only a/c movements were the gliding club, and the police helo that we manage to avoid every single weekend.

The best bit of RT we had from them was when they told a glider getting towed behind the tug to avoid a particular area for the next few minutes, the top reply from glider pilot was "incase you didnt notice i have to go where the tug takes me!"

Come 2.30pm ATC realised no a/c were coming to visit, so they cleared off home, as soon as they said that over the radio within 30 secs all ten of us ran on the runway and jumped up and down, 30mins before they told off someone for keeping his feet dry, it is mental.

I called up ATC that week to book out, got the 3rd degree of the ATCO, what i was doing, where i was going etc etc, he then said we are closing in 10 mins I could do what I want! Why give me all the grief in the first place!

It is this jobsworth attitude, obession with h&s, lack of common sense which really gets on my t:mad:ts and makes me want to jack it all in. It seems all fun is taken away.

If one more person tells me to wear a high vis at 12 midday on a gin clear blue sky day I think I will stick my fist through his head, I have managed to live this long without getting squashed, think I can live another 2 mins walking from the cafe to the parked a/c 10 meters away.

In fact it is getting so bad I think that there must be people flying out of farm strips, with no insurance, no c of a, lapsed licences and no medicals because they are sick of it all and you can get away with it, how will you ever get caught?? To many rules and people dont want to obide by any of them.

[Ryan5252]

Christ, I would love to sit down with you lot in a pub some night!! :ok:

[Viscount812]

Saw this happen on the privatisation of the railway. Sensible rules = sensible people. Make the rules too complicated and no-one will understand them any more.

[Pilot DAR]

out of farm strips, with no insurance, no c of a, lapsed licences and no medicals because they are sick of it all and you can get away with it, how will you ever get caught?? To many rules and people dont want to obide by any of them.

Hey, that's me! (except that I have insurance, a C of A, valid license, and medical (just passed this morning as a matter of fact)). While in Germany in July I saw one of those super bright high vis jackets, and fell in love with it! I bought it on the spot - not becasue my wife and kids are patrolling my aerodrome for safety and security, but because I need something brighter to wear for all the car accidents I attend as a volunteer firefighter. Those jackets are just beginning to catch on in Canada. Two years ago, people here thought they were gaudy (Hmmm, maybe we were ahead of the UK after all).

Yes, I made my own little entry point to the sky here at home, just go get away from all the airport rules - it worked!

Anyway, let me know if this pub meeting is planned, it would be great! I'm only an ocean away....

[mary meagher]

Dear UAV, where do you fly?

I'm wondering if your ATC people are actually manning a tower and a controlled airfield, or are they an advisory service with inflated ideas?

If the first, they do have to dot the i's and cross the t's. To keep the licensed airfield. So if you must co-exist, perhaps a friendly visit to the tower for a cup of coffee to let them air their grievances, arrange to meet at a pub after hours. Offer to take a controller up in a glider.....

[Pace]

If one more person tells me to wear a high vis at 12 midday on a gin clear blue sky day I think I will stick my fist through his head, I have managed to live this long without getting squashed, think I can live another 2 mins walking from the cafe to the parked a/c 10 meters away.

UAV

Someone somewhere would have dreamt up regulating on yellow jackets.
Maybe they had shares in a yellow jacket manufacturing company?

Oh well I suppose it could have been worse? some burocrat may decide we can run faster in tights and regulate that all pilots wear tights in the vicinity of aircraft...... Of course all in the name of percieved safety.

Oh well I suppose these regulators have to think up something to regulate on just to fill the week ahead? Could always alternate yellow with orange. Orange in the summer months yellow in the winter and maybe a fetching pink for spring,That leafs fig leaves for autumn. At least we would know what season we are in :ugh:

Pace nb dont think there has been one collision with a prop due to not wearing yellow jackets? but hey ho !!!!

[flyinkiwi]

The thing that gets me about people wearing high viz vests is that they seem to forget all about the "see" part of "see and be seen", their situational awareness goes straight out the window. :ugh:

[UAV689]

Ahhh done the tower visit, some of the controllers are ok, others like the sound of their voices in their headsets...

There is something about aviation that people who fly are great, it's the 10% of the ones that's don't who cause the grief..

[IO540]

ATC, as a profession, seems to have a broader spectrum of "attitude" than many professions, and the spectrum is probably closer to similarly rule-bound professions such as security, ISO9000 quality management, etc.

However, my experience of ATC while flying (i.e. interacting with them in the very narrow way involved in that case), in N Europe, has always been excellent.

It is the A/G (which many UK PPLs cannot differentiate from ATC because nobody has explained the difference) crowd who regularly cause people a lot of grief. But a lot of that may be due to a lack of understanding on the part of the pilot of what the A/G person is doing. For example there is no point in calling up "Goodwood Radar" (no kidding) for an enroute service ;)

[FullyFlapped]

For me, it's pretty simple, really.

When you're new to flying, everything is fresh and interesting, and the majority of us become sponges and soak up everything we can - and that includes the fora experience. You learn to put up with the blowhards, the sky gods, the fantasists (whatever did happen to dear old DSC?), the arguments, the willy-waving, the plain stupid, and the "good ol'boys" who have evidently flown everything ever made since the Wright Bros strutted their stuff, because there are a lot of good guys who are willing, unfailingly and selfishly, to help you along with many of the confusing aspects of this game.

Over the next few years, many of us try to do our part in turn to help out. And then ....

A few more years down the line, with some/a lot of (delete as required) experience under the belt, it becomes much harder to find the motivation to continuously monitor and engage in discussions, many of which - let's be honest - we have often seen before. And as a result, the habit of logging on to see what's going on starts to slip away, to the point where - in my own (and shameless) case - these days I only log on if I need to ask or research something, or if I'm sat idly bored in front of t'Interweb.

As that irritating puppet is fond of saying, "Seeemples !"

[Fuji Abound]

FullyFlapped

Your post rings the most true with how I find a feel these days, even if I find myself tempted to chip in on some subjects.

[joris]

Fujibound,

Maybe its the time of the year, end of summer feeling:rolleyes:

Anyway, the only remedy is to find a nice (aviation) project and execute it to stay motivated...
I know all about projects...:ok:and I just love it.....

PS I didn't log in for about two months as I was busy with my project..:8 now I am depressed after reading a couple of posts:bored:

Back to my project now:)

[IO540]

What's the project?

You are not on one of Rod1's 100,000-hour homebuilts by any chance?

[AdamFrisch]

When I undertook my PPL many moons ago in my naivety I imagined that once I held a shiny PPL I would be able to use an aircraft as I did a car but with the benefit of floating above all the traffic jams below.

That's one of the things that attract me as well. I like to be able to use it as a business tool or for work and actually go places.

However, the reality in the UK is much different. I'll give you a real world example. I work with film and on shoot days I have to be in London at about 7.30 and I work all day until at least 6pm.

That means that I have to takeoff from Lydd at about 5-5.30, fly about an hour to Elstree, take the foldable bicycle and ride to the tube. After work the reverse.

Now, the reality is that this is impossible to do, even if the weather is perfect. I'm not allowed to take off before Lydd opens without a special insurance thing. But even with that, then going back in the evening is impossible. I can't physically take off at Elstree and I certainly can't land at Lydd in darkness.

A quick glance at all the airfields around London suited for GA, and most of them are unusable for anything but leisure flying during daylight hours. The ones that would be useful, we're prevented from flying into either because they're in A airspace or charge you £500 for handling.

This is one of many problems with European flying. Once again, just too over regulated. Why don't they have rwy lights that can be xmitted on? Why do they have to have ATCO's after closing hours - just let them become a G class airport after they've shut the lights like in the US. I mean Van Nuys, the busiest GA airport in the world, turns into an uncontrolled airport after midnight or something. Why can't the same thing work here? Drives me nuts.

[joris]

ou are not on one of Rod1's 100,000-hour homebuilts by any chance?

More like selling my personal perfectly maintained plastic aircraft and trading it in for an older damaged speed tin-can, hoping it will soar the skies one day (hopefully next month) again..:D

The only way to know your A/C turn it inside out..:E

[IO540]

However Class D Airspace reverts to surface Class E when everybody in the tower goes home if weather info is available (so still controlled airspace).

Class E is CAS for IFR, OCAS for VFR.

It's a very clever system but it is no good if you have privatised ATC because the "IFR" mode then becomes meaningless.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have an idea to make it allowable to use an airport in England after dark when everyone has left work at the airport.

Just put a bunch of strobe lights on the Hi Vis vests...that will solve the problem. :ok: :E

[IO540]

No - Class E is Class E - period.
If it is uncontrolled then it would be Class G.

I will leave it to somebody else to quote ICAO on this one :)

[stickandrudderman]

Lest the discussion turns into a slagging match again........

[Captain Smithy]

Interesting thread.

PPRuNE is the only aviation internet forum I visit, that said these days I don't visit it so much.

Sometimes there are genuinely good threads that appear with many useful nuggets of information and (sometimes heated) discussion, but recently that seems to have tailed off somewhat. Most of the threads posted here of late I don't find much use, but that's me personally. Others will still find this a goldmine, depending on what's relevant to you.

Also, like all internet forums, there is a hard core element of trolling activity, know-alls and childish arguing that I can't really be bothered with. Opinions are cheap and plentiful but rarely any use.

Still visit at least once a week, but hasn't been much happening of late.

Smithy

[IO540]

You are right on terminology. Class E is "controlled" but is effectively uncontrolled for VFR because no ATC clearance is required so VFR traffic can do what it likes.

[Russell Gulch]

I have an idea to make it allowable to use an airport in England after dark when everyone has left work at the airport.


Chuck, it already works.

In England we have some flying "Clubs", where the "airport"[sic] is owned by club "Members", who have access to their airfield by right of being a said member. Like a golf club, or fishing club.

Therefore, we can use our airfield when we want (day or night) whether the "employees" (employed by the Club) are there or not.

I know you have the same in North America too.

Regards,
Russ.

[mary meagher]

Hello Adam Frish ....

Commuting in your light plane to soar above the traffic jams? Don't think so.
Trouble is, unless you are IFR with at least 2 engines and a night rating, you will always be at the wrong end of the journey when the weather turns duff.

Robert Maxwell used to commute in a helicopter, with a professional pilot.
The rest of us have to take the Oxford Tube....

[soaringhigh650]

Also - Class C and D. - NO clearance is required to enter.


I thought clearances were implicitly granted if your tail number has been acknowledged.

So "Station calling, standby" means remain outside Charlie / Delta.

[AdamFrisch]

Well, to get slightly off topic here, doesn't the E at Van Nuys start at 700ft? So technically, the airport is in G after hours. However since the pattern altitude is higher (1200ft, I think), there's no way of approaching it in G.

[IO540]

Commuting in your light plane to soar above the traffic jams? Don't think so.
Trouble is, unless you are IFR with at least 2 engines and a night rating, you will always be at the wrong end of the journey when the weather turns duff.

I would agree that reliable commuting using light GA is an illusion, but if you spend enough money on the hardware, and enough time+money an acquiring the papers to fly it, you can do it.

2 engines are however not relevant to weather capability; you can get perfectly well equipped singles. Something like a Cessna 400 will be pretty good; a Jetprop or a TBM will easily deal with frontal weather.

But in the end you will get shafted on airport opening hours - unless you do it between H24 airports and that will be super-expensive in N Europe. There are cheap H24 airports in the south.

Robert Maxwell used to commute in a helicopter, with a professional pilot.

Within the UK, or within any country in Europe, a heli is always going to be better than fixed-wing, not least due to airport opening hours, but you pay an awful lot of money for a capable one (millions).

Commuting works much better in the USA, due to airport opening times and a lot of instrument approaches. This will probably never happen in Europe, and definitely will never happen in the UK because privatised ATC will prevent GPS approaches setting up at small airfields.

[Pace]

We tend to fly summer and winter day and night usually IFR. I previously posted with a capable aircraft (deiced anti iced twin) minimum or very advanced single if you happy to take the single engine risk 95% mission success is quite possible.

I can remember flying from Ireland at night in snowstorms in winter. The flight was no major problem but I got stranded on a snowed out motorway driving my car back home after.

The major stop factor is fog.

You have to be selective on airports you use and times.

More worrying now is the lack of service OCAS flying IFR. A lot were military but we all know how even the big ones open at 0900 and close at 1700 so we are very much on our own if flying OCAS.

Pace

[IO540]

More worrying now is the lack of service OCAS flying IFR. A lot were military but we all know how even the big ones open at 0900 and close at 1700 so we are very much on our own if flying OCAS.

That's emotionally worrying but not statistically supported. Midairs in IMC = 0 in the UK, to date.

However, if you have an IR and altitude capability, you would not be flying low level OCAS. That is what "low end" piston twins have to do, because they cannot practically provide passengers with oxygen. With a pressurised single you can get a reasonable utility (limited by airports) but can't do legal SE PT in Europe ;)

[mary meagher]

Few light aircraft pilots have the hours and experience required to reliably and safely use an aircraft for business. The get home-itis inspired by one's car at the destination airfield tempts the businessman into weather and situations best avoided.

We tuggies at Shenington gliding club, having stopped operations because of lowering cloudbase, poor viz and a light drizzle, will never forget watching a Cessna 180 (whose wife and car were waiting for him) attempt an arrival downwind. Touched down well over half way, kept right on going through the hedge at the end of the runway.

His accident report blamed the airfield (uncontrolled, non radio).

[Pace]

His accident report blamed the airfield (uncontrolled, non radio).

Mary

Have to take you up on this one:= I would blame the pilot !00% for bad piloting skills.

There is no excuse for touching down halfway down a strip, attempting to stop and going through the hedge! Thats a bad pilot. That whole procedure is in his hands and control alone.

You can touch down at your correct touchdown point regaradless of winds! that is piloting skills. No one in the tower to give you the surface winds? just check your crab angle and keep half an eye on the groundspeed shown on the GPS compared to your TAS at various points on the approach.

If the good pilot is unhappy he can always go around the bad pilot will make the wrong decision.

10540 You very much can be in IMC IFR OCAS in capable aircraft happens to me in the Citation I fly as well as to RyanAir in their 737s Low level OCAS is not just the playground of light singles and microlights.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

Indeed the issue is airports. How many close even as late as 6 or 7 pm if you are lucky - and a lot earlier in the winter? My airport has started to refuse fuel until 9-30 (although hopefully it will change back to 9). I suppose the trouble is most people dont care because they are "bimblers". When I have a meeting I like to be away before 9 and often back after 6 and I havent got the time to sort the fuel out the day before. This sort of thing is just yet another nail in the coffin for some who end up concluding they might just as well drive.

Places like Fairoaks have the right model. Is it any surprise they have so many Jetprops, twins etc. You simply sign the indemnity and come and go as you please. If you cant land your TBM at 9-00 pm in the Summer it immediatley starts to loose some of its utility value.

I recall my first trip from to Merritt Island. It suited me to go after dark, but after a three hour flight it would be gone 22-00. Obvioulsy the airport would be closed so bin that idea. You can imagine the airport thought they had a mad man on the 'phone when I asked for their opeing hours - its 24/7, but you and the security guard might be the only people they said.

Pace - your comment about OCAS slightly surprises me as well. Another trouble in this country is that when you need the service most because the world and his wife are flying the service is over loaded. When it is grey and miserable no one is flying and those who are transponding. For those reasons if you are using an aircraft "seriously" I think some form of TAS makes sense - although in fact it is the big sky that will keep you safe nearly all the time.

Personally I dont think a high despatch rate is achievable with a single (unless it has CAPS) and unless it is de-iced. You will end up doing too much flying with low bases and no flying in the colder months. Many accept the risk of IMC with low bases in singles but it worries me.

All that said it is surprising how good the despatch rate can be in any half sensible single - certainly better than 80%. I dont think for some that should be confused with pushing the limits. With experience flights can be conducted in weather that looks unpleasant perfectly safely. Fronts, embedded CB activity etc are the issues not just low grey cloud. However with the lack of redundancy on so many singles and the total reliance on the engine inevitably unexpected problems are much harder to manage hence the outcome is much more likely to feature in the reports.

[Pace]

Pace - your comment about OCAS slightly surprises me as well.

Fuji what is surprising? Fly into LondonDerry and you will hear the 737s OCAS taking up a pilot interpretated hold and level with everyone else and everyone asking the others positions.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

Pace - but you are concerned that a procedural seperation in an ATZ is inadequate? I had assumed your reference was to en route OCAS avoiding ATZs with IAPs.

[Pace]

Fuji

The LondonDerry trip Is a good example. Leaving Belfast the aircraft (737) descends towards LondonDerry OCAS, descends below FL100 OCAS prob IMC. This whole procedure is without RADAR. He then talks to LondonDerry ATC still without radar coverage and positions for a pilot interpretated procedure onto the ILS unless things have changed since I was last there 2 years ago? LondonDerry is not unique. There is a gliding club close by and it is quite feasable that some lost glider could be in the clouds with them.

Pace

[mary meagher]

Pace, perhaps you misunderstood my phrasing.

I said "HIS accident report blamed the airfield......!"

Which was the pilot speaking, not the investigators, they didn't do much investigating so they took his word for it. We were of another opinion entirely, and thought him a complete w......

Fire engines were summoned, and spread foam around. An ambulance arrived and wasn't required. To make things even safer, the next day we siphoned off the avgas, and put it to good use. (If I knew how to summon up a smilie, it would be the blue one with the toothy grin.)

[Pace]

I said "HIS accident report blamed the airfield......!"

Mary so you did it did say HIS own report! my mistake ;) But just shows the worst pilots are those who blame everything for their mistakes but themselves and hence they never learn.

Pace

[Shoestring Flyer]

...........and there I was thinking that this thread was about 'Lots of pilots leaving the forums'

Too many self opinionated willy waivers simply turn off the average flyer from posting anything!

[Fuji Abound]

Too many self opinionated willy waivers simply turn off the average flyer from posting anything!


It is a reasonably common theme in this thread.

Let me offer this.

Flying will in part attract pilots with strong personalities. After all private pilots are often financially successful people that are well motivated (note the use of often, not always).

Moreover what is the point of a debate unless contributors are forthright and have convinction about their posts.

However you are right some posts cross the line and are vexatious or ill informed.

I wonder what others think?

[IO540]

I said "HIS accident report blamed the airfield......!"

He needs his head examined, blaming a lack of navaids etc for a bodged DIY instrument approach. If he designed the DIY IAP properly he would have been fine.

Flying will in part attract pilots with strong personalities. After all private pilots are often financially successful people that are well motivated (note the use of often, not always).

That is highly accurate.

IMHO the explanation is that flying involves so much crap (on the ground, mainly) that only the strongest motivated people (or perhaps the wierdest anoraks) will hang in it for long.

Even looking at it most charitably, those flying seriously long-term will be people who are successful in their business or profession, and these tend to be reasonably competent and thus forthright in their views :)

[Ryan5252]

Even looking at it most charitably, those flying seriously long-term will be people who are successful in their business or profession

Or married to one! :}

[shortstripper]

I could offer an opinion, but I can't be bothered :hmm:

..........
..........
..........

Oh yes I can! I've got a new aeroplane and I'm back in the mood!!! :D

Seriously; for the last two years I haven't flown much and have sort of felt "out of the fold" so to speak. Now, as there is light at the end of the tunnel, I feel far more inclined to contribute (not that I have anything great to offer). I'm sure that in this time of austerity, many will be feeling the pinch, flying less and feeling down generally ... not a mix that makes posting on forums seem important.

SS

[Rod1]

shortstripper

Welcome back!

Rod1

[Wrong Stuff]

I think the reason people drift away from general purpose forums is because the proportion of uninformed opinion increases to a level where it swamps out the interesting, informed view. There are a few contributors here whose posts are always well worth reading, but far too many others think they're an equal member of some online community and just as entitled to express their ill-formed thoughts. There's obviously very little correlation between verbosity, knowledge and being able to form a sensible opinion. That includes some who actually make their living in aviation.

Aviation forums start out as a discussion between pilots talking about something they're out doing in the real world. The most active ones end up overrun by people who use them as a substitute for a social life. If you need a sensible discussion about a topic, there are much better forums with a higher proportion of people who know what they're talking about against those who feel compelled to chip in with some rubbish which takes the thread off in a totally different direction.

The sad reality for the forum addicts is that there just isn't enough change happening in aviation to continually feed a 24 hour discussion. That doesn't seem to stop them trying though.

[IO540]

If you need a sensible discussion about a topic, there are much better forums with a higher proportion of people who know what they're talking aboutCan you think of one for GA?

I know there are type specific forums, but most/all of them will be American and my experience of a few years on the Socata one (run by an ex Brit living in the USA) is that most European pilots cleared off it by about 2005 and the place is now dominated by a dozen Americans posting mostly banal stuff. Maybe the Cessna one is better; I believe you have to pay to access it.

The sad reality for the forum addicts is that there just isn't enough change happening in aviation to continually feed a 24 hour discussion.That I agree with. However, it doesn't explain what I see as a significant decline over the past year or two.

Maybe there really is a strong economic factor, but why isn't pprune flooded with postings from homebuilders flying their 200kt machines on 10 litres/hr? They do have their forums but from what I recall there is almost nobody on there.

[Rod1]

“Maybe there really is a strong economic factor, but why isn't PPRuNe flooded with postings from homebuilders flying their 200kt machines on 10 litres/hr? They do have their forums but from what I recall there is almost nobody on there.”

Most of the home built owners have followed a relatively set sequence. This is by no means true of all, but it is true of well over 50%. It starts out with a PPL, moves almost immediately to a share (or total ownership), probably in an IFR capable “4 seat” aircraft. An IMCR is gained and used for UK touring, with the perception that most flights require IFR and an enthusiasm to log IFR. European touring is then undertaken in greater amounts. IMCR not valid in Europe so a different approach is needed. VFR is “rediscovered” as extensive European trips are undertaken with sufficient experience and equipment to fly down to VFR minima. Realisation dawns that the same approach can be used in the UK. Homebuilt aircraft then appear attractive as operating from a strip with self maintenance (LAA inspected) removes vast cost and 90% of the hassle, as well as introducing a degree of social camaraderie. This journey takes a long time. I started out in Gliding from 1984 to 91, owned a variety of 4 seat IFR machines alongside shares in various LAA machines and finally committed to the LAA solution alone 5 years ago. More than 50% of the pilots at my strip followed a similar path, but most are older than me and not great computer uses (I have a degree in it).

One also has to understand that some people on here have no clue about LAA type flying and spout utter rubbish in huge quantities. This is not a compatible environment for LAA pliots unless you have a thick skin, or just don’t care, but if you stick at it can be fun. I have taken many forum members up in the MCR and most have found it huge fun. There is now a series of fly ins organised every year aimed at getting forum members to fly in and go for rides in each others aircraft. This is done mostly on Flyer as it has a fly in section. The next one is in October;

FLYER Forums • View topic - Forum Fly in October (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=65423)

Rod1

[IO540]

One also has to understand that some people on here have no clue about LAA type flying and spout utter rubbish in huge quantities.

I am delighted to have such a huge acknowledgement of my contribution here from such an authority as you, rod :) Gosh, to think I was keeping 100,000 homebuilt pilots from posting here. Quite an achievement, single handed.

[BossEyed]

Oh, the irony. :hmm:

The tone of that last post is seen often, and is likely a major reason that many people won't bother with forums. Petty backbiting and points scoring is rarely conducive to encouraging people to contribute.

IO, you're usually better than that.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Maybe the internet (Usenet e.g. rec.aviation.* 10+ years ago, and the www forums taking over since then) has provided a means of discussion but after the standard topics have been covered a dozen times, people lose interest. And the very static nature of the owner-pilot population means that when they lost interest, there was nobody around to replace them.

I think this is it. The Internet came along. People who were interested in flying talked about it for a bit online, had all the discussions they hadn't been able to have before, then finally got bored of the repetition. A new generation of pilots trickles in all the time, but there is no more pent-up demand to be unleashed so everything just trundles slowly on in a rather more pedestrian manner than previously.

[DeeCee]

Yes, exactly. Somebody asks a simple question and gets multiple answers of varying quality mixed with sarcasm and downright rudeness.

[Lister Noble]

There's nothing wrong at all with this Forum.
I have asked many questions here over the last few years and never once got "flamed".
There is a wealth of knowledge and experience on here,just need to tap into it.
I've just asked a question on a topic running here,and I know I've asked about the topic before,it is quite difficult to get a definite answer as the authorities can't make a decision,but I have just had a helpful reply.
I think a lot depends on how the question is posed
Lister:)

[dont overfil]

The forum is not what it was without the daily postings on the Oban thread.;)
DO.

[MichaelJP59]

Have to say that the LAA's own forum is very quiet, only a few new topics each week. Not sure why, perhaps everyone is busy in the garage building?

[gasax]

The LAA's firum is pretty dead because if was 'moderated to death' - as a deliberate policy.

If the demographic of flying is middle aged plus it tends to be rather older in the LAA. It has also been a hotbed of infighting and politics over the years. The present crew are not too bad but whenan organisation decides to 'rebrand' itself and simply springs the decision on its members it makes the organisation look like the Vatican...

[S-Works]

The fact is that the majority of topics have been done to death and the postings get distilled down to the same old subjects with the same people pontificating on them.

When anyone has a different opinion they are generally pounced on and beaten into submission, anyone who stands against them then has the usual whispering campaigns etc started against them.

And there are a couple of posters legendary for behind the scenes antics of trying to discredit those they have a grudge against. It is is boring and off putting for many people to be involved in that sort of behaviour and so they drift off onto other things.

[Rod1]

“Have to say that the LAA's own forum is very quiet, only a few new topics each week. Not sure why, perhaps everyone is busy in the garage building?”

The old PFA forum was quite lively, but the new LAA one is dead. Most moved over to Flyer which is often the best place to ask LAA type questions due to the numbers posting.

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

There seems to be far less interesting discussion on Flyer than I can remember in a long time. I think Bose is right, I find myself visiting less and less - perhaps too much has now been done before.

[Tim Dawson]

There's a limit to the number of topics that can be discussed, but luckily there's scope for an infinite number of silly opinions to be expressed :E

[IO540]

It has also been a hotbed of infighting and politics over the years.

I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of individuals who have had a large hand in partly trashing several formerly useful aviation forums, through vile postings (personal attacks, threats of violence, etc). And in that I include some non-UK (non obvious to locals here) aviation forums. It doesn't take much to put a lot of people off.

In the days of Usenet, rudeness was common (long before I got onto the internet) but somehow people did not mind. Usenet remained fairly resilient, until it got trashed by massive spam issues. For some reason a lot of people do mind rudeness in web forums.

[Centaurus]

I remember as a kid that aviation and airplanes were magic.

A well written and thoughtful post. Living close to a major airport, all I ever see now are streams of Boeings and Airbus going down the ILS on autopilot and the occasional Dash Eight and a Saab 340 or two. Boring, quite frankly. I loved those halycon days when you saw Connies, DC4, DC6, Argosies, Convairs, DC8's, Britannias, DC3's, Friendships, C130's, Electras and the occasional Globemasters.

And in Darwin we saw a feast of different types passing through. A B17 Flying Fortress, more USAF Globemasters, F84 Thunderjets, Boeing 707's, Hastings, Tudors, and a weird French double tail double decker Bregeut. A spotters paradise. Not forgetting of course Lincolns coming in on three engines which was SOP. Mustangs and Vampires, Sabres on exercises, Neptunes - the station Wirraway even (until I pranged it) And the local Darwin aeroclub had Tiger Moths, and a Hornet Moth (I pranged that a little bit, too)

No wonder there were so many aviation enthusiasts then. Not too many now.

[flybymike]

No wonder there were so many aviation enthusiasts then. Not too many now.

Pioneering days, before we were all swamped with over regulation, health and safety culture and bureaucracy...

[Pilot DAR]

It sure is less enticing to read and post, when PPRuNe keeps telling me that I have exceeded my maximum number of posts, and I have to log in and pass a colour vision test, before I can even read. Then, when I do post, it gives me an error message, and forgets what I typed in.

Thank goodness for "control c", so I don't totally loose my thoughts!

[Blues&twos]

Maybe there's just a finite number of things to be discussed about aviation, and by the middle of last year we'd said it all......:ok:

[421C]

If you need a sensible discussion about a topic, there are much better forums with a higher proportion of people who know what they're talking about

Can you think of one for GA?


Yes. http://www.pplir.org/pplir/
Members-only forum. Focused on IFR but plenty of non-IFR discussion of aircraft (from light singles up) and also VFR flight.
brgds
421C

[FullyFlapped]

Too many self opinionated willy waivers simply turn off the average flyer from posting anything!
"willy waiver" ... eunuch's contract of employment ? :)

As has been said many times, "I'll get my hat ..."

[First_Principal]

Thank goodness for "control c", so I don't totally loose my thoughts!

Hmmm, yes letting loose with yer thoughts would be enough to scare a few away I expect :}

FP.

[Crash one]

What with technoblurbling willy wavers, spelling police, pissing contestants I'm not surprised pilots are leaving. Perhaps IO540 can explain what flying jetprops & 737s has to do with private flying? & when someone asks about setting an altimeter to a GPS alt, he gets shot to bits with geoids, sirf chipsets & crap about what dire consequences await at 20000ft! I'm quite sure he & the rest of us are well aware that an altimeter reads pressure difference & a GPS uses geographic triangulation in some form, we don't need told that!! nor do we need told that we can get a QNH from any corner shop. Provided the wireless is working!! It doesn't encourage the asking of what, to the asker, is a reasonable question.Rant over.
And for some reason I can't seperate paragraphs on this stupid tablet thing!

[JW411]

I don't think that IO540 has ever been near a "Jet prop or 737" in his entire life and is not likely so to do.

All he's got is a basic FAA CPL with an IR (unlike his very sad friends).

[Pilot DAR]

I can't seperate paragraphs on this stupid tablet thing!

That's to prevent "loose thoughts"!

basic FAA CPL

Without being drawn into a trail of personal resume's, I can attest personally that one can fly a lot of different aircraft with a "basic (however that applies here) PPL". On my PPL I have flown a number of "jet prop" aircraft. I can say though, that I am pointed toward a CPL. It will be "basic" too, but there are more jet props in my future!

[AN2 Driver]

IO540,

I have to say that I find pprune still one of the most valuable forums around and I spend quite a lot of my online time reading here and not only this section. I find that this here section is a bit strong on the UK side, but that is not a problem for me. Reading here and also the support if you do ask a question is extremely helpful.

On the topic of why GA declines, there are many theories. All right and wrong. I reckon however, there is a fundamental change in perception of aviation per se and GA in particular, which has happened over the last few years and which has demystified flying as a almost metaphysical experience for the normal Joe Public out there. Having done that, it has discouraged and in many instances actively kept folks from pursuing the dream because they feel peer pressure from left/green activists who today often are regarded more of the role models as an airliner captain was 20 years ago.

A bit off track but having been working for one of the classic airlines which has disappeared, with the demise of people like Pan Am, Swissair and other seemingly unthinkables, as well as the constant and persistent demontage of the image of an airline pilot from a hero worshiped entity to a bus driver today by the media and the opponents of anything running on gasoline has had a tremendous impact. Many youngsters who were plane nuts in the old days today find themselfs attacked from all fronts if they wish to pursue their dream. Rather than being supported as one of the most desirable professions it has become a too ordinary one for people to care.

I reckon this has had a tremendous impact on youngsters wishing to go the whole way. Likewise, GA is today regarded by a large majority of Joe Publics as an expensive playboy pasttime. With this, untrue as it is, comes envy and with envy come anti airport leagues, anti noise protest and murder threats over the net and sometimes personal if one engages in the condemmable habit of moving fuel to noise converters around the countryside. Unlike before, when people looked up in fascination at a passing plane, many look up in anger today.

Pre the Internet and PC age, young kids had their dreams based on books and fantasy. We built airplane models and looked at them or "flew" them of the kitchen table. Now, kids run comprehensive and well developed flight simulations on their personal computers. Quite some reach an astonishing degree of knowledge and motivation doing this and are feverish in waiting for the first time they can go to an airport and have a go at the real thing. Having bin in that particular branch of aviation for over 20 years now as a sideline of work and also because I wanted to pass on knowledge to the youngsters, I know very well what is out there. And I get 17-18 year olds who finally scrape together the money for a flying lesson coming back and throwing the towel the very day they have been waiting for. They get confronted with a £17-20k budget needed to get a PPL, they get often enough laughed out of the instruction room at the mention of how they got to be motivated, if not shouted down not least in forums right here, where the word "simmer" is nothing better than words which need censoring not to fall off. IMHO there are far too many airport kings and self appointed experts around who will, instead of picking up where these kids started and show them how to convert their skills and knowledge to the "real" thing, will laugh and shout them out of the office.

Cost and the generally negative outlook is another thing why many people today rather book another all inclusive holiday than to take flying lessons. Some of this also is present here. If you hear how professional pilots in this PPRUNE forum often enough talk about their profession, then does anyone wonder why on earth people won't bother to consider this job? I guess the muttering was the same before the Internet, but it was internal and often good natured banter. However, if I read people in here who openly state they hate their jobs, then who wonders why someone might pick another career?

In GA, the same kind of stuff can be seen as well. We had a discussion in our local forum the other day about an airport which is threatened by closure and a good 60% of the participants would resign and say well, that is life why bother. They are tired of fighting and they stop and do other things where they don't hear every time they mention what they do that they are egoist playboys with too much money.

I took up flying again after a 7 year break last fall and I am damn glad I did. But I also have noted the changes. It's a different world now. There are ups and downs, but mostly downs and most of them in terms of a huge inflation. Flying is becoming the rich kid playboy sport many take it for these days, because politicians think so and they decide in the long rund what we need to pay for EASA part M, part whatsoever and hugely increased training costs.

I guess what we can do to counter this is to go back to our roots in terms of being ambassadors of aviation, every single one of us. Take kids for rides, take friends, convince them that it's not a "daring circus act" but an every day event a darn side less dangerous than riding a bike. And for heavens sake get off the high horse and smash the door into the faces of the computer kids of all ages who knock on flight school doors or try their luck in forums. Of course we need to tell them if they are wrong on something but that can be done without telling them to f.-. o--- and go back to play computers. You know what, they might just do that. Of my flock which I personally know over the last 15 years or so who have started with flight simulation, at least 20-30 of them fly today for real. One is a 747 skipper, several others fly in orange and other jets around Europe. And several have ppl's and enjoy life in the Alps.

As long as we are civil to each other, as the huge majority of folks here are, as long as we take newbies seriously and kindly, we'll get more quality posters back here. And we might get some more to fly.



Best regards
AN2 Driver.

[Monocock]

I personally don't frequent this parish these days as I find it has changed over time.

I feel it used to be more of a UK based flying fraternity where people knew each other perhaps more personally and actually met up at events. Now whenever I come here I find that the topics are mainly links to crashes (with the inevitable amateur AAIB brigade pulling on their yellow tabards), questions about tedious maintenance regulations and the good old debates that seem to never tire about knee boards, GPS's and watches.

I wonder how many people in this particular forum are actual flyers. My guess is that proportionally they have reduced markedly in the last 10 years. Reading many of the posts I can't help wondering if a lot of the contributors these days fly Cessnas created by Hewlett Packard as opposed to Textron!

And, before I am flamed, grilled, poached or fried for mis-spelling or upsetting any sensitive souls (for which I am truly sorry if I have), I shall go back to being a reader again as opposed to a contributor!!!

[Katamarino]

Crashone and JW411

To be honest, your posts come across as those of jealous children. I don't know it IO540 has flown a Jetprop, but I have read an extremely interesting account of his recent flight in a TBM Turboprop that is, I think, rather higher-end than a Jetprop. With an FAA CPL/IR you can technically right-seat an airliner, and "Captain" a very large range of interesting aircraft, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is there.

It's a shame that some of the more technical discussions, such as GPS, are too complicated for you to understand; but there are those of us who can understand them, and find them quite useful and interesting.

IO540 does a lot of incredible flying, all of which is private; I couldn't care less if he's in a powered parachute or a B52, if he's flying it privately it seems relevant. He puts in a huge amount of time and effort to making his knowledge available to others and I have benefited a great deal from some of what he writes on his website, particularly in planning my own private flights from Rotterdam to Tunisia and other interesting places; he also seems to perform a fair amount of advocacy on behalf of all GA.

So tell me; apart from jealous and uninformed little whining posts, what do you contribute to match that? Posts like yours are exactly what we could do without.

[Pilot DAR]

Well said, Katamarino!

[vanHorck]

I too highly respect IO540 for his knowledge and his actual private flying. I've met him in person here in Holland and he is real...

Rarely have a met such a knowledgeable GA pilot outside the ranks of old CFI's.

What's more , he is not afraid of saying things how he perceives them, and that makes his suggestions as to what kit works and what kit does not work a lot more valuable than the middle grey evaluations of commercial advertorial magazines.....

It's not without reason that I keep thinking that if IO540 were to start a blog, a lot of GA pilots would do well to subscribe, as we are short in our little hobby club of tested worthwhile opinions of people not afraid to speak their mind without falling in that PPRUNE trap: becoming pedants....

[JEM60]

Well, I have never met IO540, but I have invariably found his posts interesting, and his personal views are his own opinions,. I respect them, because he is entitled to them. His flying is way above my 200 hrs before I gave up [young family etc.] That was 33 years ago. I love to keep in touch, hence take 'Pilot' as I have always done, and I read avidly all the sensible post on this site, which include his and JW411. I would be be regarded as a sad person on here, 'cos being an early riser, I play a large amount of Flight Sim. It doesn't make me a bad person tho':)

[JW411]

Katamarino and Others,

I think you have misinterpreted my comments. They were made in response to IO540's statement made in his posting #8:

"There is no social scene where I am based, unless one is a particularly sad case".

I and many of my friends, take exception to being described as "particularly sad cases". I certainly do not consider myself to be a "particularly sad case" and I don't think he has done himself any favours by making such a remark.

A lot of us are highly qualified in "heavier professional aviation" as well as being light aircraft enthusiasts.

[AdamFrisch]

I just read that the FAA - shook and wanting to look decisive after the Colgan crash - has implemented that from the year 2013 only ATP(L)'s with 1500hrs are allowed to fly right seat for airliners. So no more CPL 200 hr cadet straight hire things.

This has huge implications. Expect EASA to ape.

Let's look at those implications:

This will most likely create a shortage of pilots down the line, and many may fall by the wayside. The good thing is that this will probably mean that the airlines will have to start to pay better again. No more FO's earning $16.000/year like in the Colgan case. The bad thing is that even less people will now consider becoming pilots, and that's as bad for GA as it is for Airlines. I mean, who can possibly afford to slog around in a 172 for 1500hrs out of your own pocket, just to be able to get an interview?

Conjuring with this is the figures I read in Pilot magazine: according to AOPA, 30% less have become pilots in the last 10 years, compared to the 10 years before that. That's a massive drop.

Add to this the FAA and EASA's ever increasing nannyfication of all things flying, and the future looks really bleak. We have to get more people to start flying. It's a numbers game. But how do we do that?

[Rod1]

We did this at the bottom of page 3 / top of page 4 and this is probably not the right thread anyway.

Rod1

[AN2 Driver]

I just read that the FAA - shook and wanting to look decisive after the Colgan crash - has implemented that from the year 2013 only ATP(L)'s with 1500hrs are allowed to fly right seat for airliners. So no more CPL 200 hr cadet straight hire things.

That is outright not feasible.

Typical knee jerk reaction. Yes, it might cause standards and wages to rise, but heavens, where should these people fly 1500 hours before they join the airlines? Most private pilots don't achieve this in their life time. In the US, where the way is via CFI and stuff like that maybe, but here? Forget it.

If this comes through, the airlines will hopefully make a stand. They will run out of personel within a few years. AND, it will lead to a further decline of hopefulls to start flying, as the step to the airlines will be too high for almost all of them.

[SNS3Guppy]

I just read that the FAA - shook and wanting to look decisive after the Colgan crash - has implemented that from the year 2013 only ATP(L)'s with 1500hrs are allowed to fly right seat for airliners. So no more CPL 200 hr cadet straight hire things.

Adam, that particular bit of regulation is in the infancy stages, presently.

The US has never had a cadet scene. With the exception of the comair pilot academy and one by mesa...both fairly low quantity suppliers of people to cockpits of any kind, US airlines generally hire off the street. The "airlines" that did hire such low time pilots were generally bottom-end, small companies flying commuter or regional routes. The wages continue to be dismal and unlivable for such operators.

A brief period several years ago did see extremely low-time pilots hired (200 hours isn't enough to hold a commercial pilot certificate), but historically one has generally needed to be around 2,000+ hours to be competitive for even regional airline seats. In fact, I can remember the frustration of being unable to find work at 2,500 hours...which is still really a low experience level. Europeans consider 1,500 hours to be an experienced pilot...but such isn't the case in the US. In fact, for legacy carriers, one has generally needed about 4,000 to 5,000 hours to be competitive. My own employer, of late, is hiring pilots in the 10,000 to 20,000 hour range, all with heavy, international experience...and has no problem finding a seemingly unending supply of applicants.


This will most likely create a shortage of pilots down the line, and many may fall by the wayside. The good thing is that this will probably mean that the airlines will have to start to pay better again. No more FO's earning $16.000/year like in the Colgan case. The bad thing is that even less people will now consider becoming pilots, and that's as bad for GA as it is for Airlines. I mean, who can possibly afford to slog around in a 172 for 1500hrs out of your own pocket, just to be able to get an interview?

Ah, the mythical pilot shortage. There has never been one, and won't be.

An airline cockpit isn't the be-all and end-all of career destinations. One can fly an entire career and never set foot in an airline cockpit and be perfectly happy...and there are more jobs in other types of cockpits than airline cockpits. The only part of the airline industry to be affected by raising the copilot hours requirement to 1,500 total time, will be the very entry-level positions at some commuter and regional airlines. To be competitive for a position anywhere else, pilots will need considerably more than that...forget any legal requirements. Nobody is competitive for a pilot position with that low a time, anyway.

The traditional route to an airline cockpit isn't flying your own airplane for 1,500 hours, and it isn't jumping into a cockpit at 200 hours, especially in the US. A pilot who shows up for his first job with 1,500 hours, all flown privately, is going to have a much harder time being considered for work than a pilot who shows up for the same interview with 1,500 hours of experience that has been gained professionally. Anybody can buy their hours; the only requirement is to pay for it. To have worked for someone else, where one had to be good enough to compete to get the job and to keep the job, as well as to pass the additional testing, training, and recurrent exams, checkrides, interviews, etc, is something that's significant to many employers. Professional training, especially by known training organizations, that's been ongoing through one's career to date, is valued.

With this in mind, traditionally in the US, pilots complete their basic flight training, and go on to become flight instructors. I didn't, initially; I became an agricultural aviator (crop duster). Others do powerline patrol, traffic watch, and aerial photography. Whatever can be found. With 500 hours under their belt, they become eligible for charter work, generally VFR single engine work. By the time they reach 1,200 hours, they can be doing multi-engine IFR work. Often pilots find themselves flying a clapped-out Twin Commander or Baron, or a Caravan. There are plenty of ways to get to 1,500 hours, and beyond, other than riding around in the cockpit of an airliner, and there really aren't that many pilots that end up in airliners with minimal experience.

As for changing conditions and higher wages with a minimum experience level of 1,500 hours, don't bank on it. 1,500 hours isn't much...it's the bare minimum for the ATP pilot certificate, which is the entry-level qualification to do that kind of flying, anyway. An ATP certificate and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee, and that's about it. The ATP is little more than a glorified instrument rating, added to a commercial pilot certificate. More of the same.

Wages will stay low for regionals. Many regional pilots, especially those at the bottom rungs of seniority, live at or below the poverty level. Don't expect to see operators make grand changes to that bottom line, and don't expect to see the paying public volunteer to pony up the cash to make up the difference. Passengers want cheap seats, and cheap seats often tend to lead to hiring cheap pilots. Those who take the positions see it as a trade-off to get somewhere else...the 1,500 hour pilot who gets a job flying right seat in an CRJ or an ERJ hasn't arrived. He or she has just got a toe in the door, and it's a long road.

In the US, the professional pilot will often fly 10 years or more before making any kind of real profit, and may go ten or fifteen before getting into a comfortable position. I think I was sixteen years before I got a turbine job...and that was just getting started. This isn't the case for everyone...but one shouldn't have false expectations. New pilots in the US tend to get good at being creative with rice and noodles, and tend to drive old, tired cars...and in some cases, live in them.

I've a friend, a captain for a national airline in the US who lives in a camper trailer in the parking lot of an international airport, when he's on the road. He has a home at home...but when he goes to his base, he lives in his car. In fact, I interviewed for an ATR-42 position once in which the pilot I would be replacing was living in his car in a hangar...and the management of the company, flying for one of the most recognized operators in the world...had no problems with that. That was a freight operation mind you, but I was coming to them with about 5,000 hours at the time. Think about that.

This doesn't have a lot to do with why private pilots join or don't join web boards, but does have to do with your post.

As the economy picks up, more people will begin to undertake flight training again. Until then, so long as it remains expensive, aviation will continue to be the leading-edge economic indicator that it is. Aviation is always overly sensitive to the razor-thin profit margin that marks airlines, corporate flight departments, etc, with a trickle-down effect to the local FBO where people begin training for fun, or a career. Whether one is trying to justify the expense as the building block for a career (hard to do when one knows it may take ten or fifteen years to begin to see a return on that investment, and that one is really investing in a decade or more of poverty), one still has to pay the bills.

The hardest part of flying has always been paying for it. In tough times when people are more concerned about feeding them selves than spending the exorbitant fees that are required today to fly privately, it's little wonder that fewer and fewer numbers are playing the game. Much as many of us see flying as a personal necessity, doing so privately still continues to be a lavish luxury which few can afford.

Ironically, many of us who fly professionally do so because we can't afford or couldn't afford to fly privately. If I had the cash, I'd have been quite happy in my own airplane, long ago. I couldn't afford to fly, so the only way to keep flying was to find someone to pay me to do it. My job continues to be my hobby to this day, or visa versa. In the US, there's a big sacrifice to be paid if one feels that passionately about their hobby to stick by it long enough to make it into a career...but this legislation not withstanding, there's nothing new under the sun. It won't significantly impact pilot numbers, and it won't significantly impact the numbers of those who fly for fun, either.

Most importantly to this thread, it won't have any impact at all on the number of people who visit web boards to talk about flying.

As an aside, JW411 is quite correct that a large number of professionals aviators are still very avid general aviation enthusiasts, as am I. My heart is wrapped up in the experimental world, which I've long considered the heart and soul of aviation (despite the industry's fancy trappings of high-tech and fast equipment). The home-building community, where innovation, experimentation, and thinking outside the box continues to reign supreme is really the hope of the future of the industry as a whole.

Airplanes like the Cirrus, big advances for the industry over the limited selection of "spam cans" that once were the mainstay, have their roots deep in the homebuilding community. The homebuilding community, of course, inherently wrapped in private flying. Even recent advances to the point of space flight, ala the Rutan achievement, were done by people who learned their trade making surf boards. The homebuilt community, the experimental arena, has no upward limits, and is accessible to all in one way or another. This brings together expert test pilots with new private pilots, it joins the airline pilot, the commercial pilot, the private pilot at the hip with a common interest.

It's not just experimentals, however. The same is true where one flies at the local FBO. My first instructor, when I was a civil air patrol cadet way back when, was an instructor for a major airline. His hobby was spending all his free time at the local airport teaching, helping, and a lot of the time simply sitting on the couch and talking flying. If you're talking airline pilots, corporate pilots, charter pilots, freight pilots, fire pilots, police pilots, or bush pilots, every bit as much as student pilots, recreational pilots, flight instructors, banner towers, parachutists, and anyone else you can dream up...we're all the heart and soul of general aviation. We're all linked in the same way, with the same sickness and addiction that draws us to what we do.

I recently flew with one of the highest time DC-3 pilots in the world. He now flies one of our airplanes, but his heart is very much in propellers and shuddering wings and dripping oil. He loves conventional gear (tailwheels). Our flying isn't particularly exciting, but like me, he finds it exhilarating because it's flying. Period. People like him, like me,and like anyone else who participates on a web board such as this or a dirty couch full of holes at the local FBO...love flying. We love to share, we love to mentor, we love to listen, we love to participate. I've known many who would simply come to the airport on their day off to hang out, even if they didn't fly, because it's where many of us are happiest, and it's not a bad place to be.

People hang out on boards such as this because they have an interest. That interest is hard to maintain for some when they can't fly at all, but especially for people like that, boards such as this are important places where they can recharge their aviation batteries and keep some hope alive. More people will start flying when more people have more money. Until then, those that will participate on a board such as this (or any other) will, and those who won't....

[Gipsy Queen]

I got my papers in 1953 - still have the cotton helmet and Gosport tube - and did my multi-engine on a Gemini a couple of years later. From this you will deduce that I'm an old fart but this does perhaps allow me a broader perspective.

In my estimation, people have dropped off simply because flying is very far from being as much fun as it once was. Since the greatest prerequisite for doing anything is to enjoy doing it, there must be a simple correlation between fun and participation. And the two party poopers here are beauracracy and technical complexity. I suspect this view is supported by the degree of fun derived from private flying to be in direct proportion to the age of the aircraft - pilots of pre-war machines have a whale of a time.

In the old days - here he goes again! - if the engine started and the weather was acceptable, you waved away the chocks and went. A friend recently trying to visit me at my local strip had to cancel as the transponder was inop and this evidently was a bigger deal than just not being able to squawk because it interfaced with TCAS and the MFD and goodness knows what other gizmos in the alphabet soup, the absence of which did not prevent the a/c from flying.

To be frank, if I was still involved in private flying, I would jack it in too - I just cannot see that the restrictions of airspace controls and attendant reporting, glass panels and all the legal mumbo-jumbo now drowning what used to be a simple pursuit, is worth the candle.

I mean, can you imagine carrying enough crystals to cover three decimal places? :ugh:

But I agree with Guppy's view that these boards do offer a useful, albeit vicarious, contact with the remnants of a world with which a lot of us were once familiar. Yes, I too have fond memories of holed and cigarette-burned flying club sofas. I also remember, but with less affection, the Brylcreem-lined leather flying helmets hung outside the CFI's office.

Gippo.

[Pilot DAR]

if the engine started and the weather was acceptable, you waved away the chocks and went,

Well, except for the fact that chocks are a little too advanced for my aerodrome, have faith, flying in its purest form is still alive!

My other aircraft does not have any avionics whatever, and I rarely bother carrying the portable radio, there's no one I have to, or want to talk to anyway! It looked nice up there today, so I flew it for an hour, including more than a dozen landings on five different surfaces, and enjoyed simple aviation. I stopped at a friend's and took him for a flight.

It's been about 25 years since I flew a plane in the UK, and it did seem a little more concentrated than I'm used to here at home. But I can't help but wonder if some of the effort devoted to posts here, were directed along the proper path toward the appropriate authorities, would things not ease a little for those who feel the restrictions?

When I'm unhappy with the actions of the regulator, I start writing, and attending meetings. I have rarely been dissapointed that the system will not consider what the "little guy" has to say. It does not always go my way, but it always seems at least fair.

When necessary, I fight for the privilage of flying, and I exercise it regularly. I use my aircraft for the commuity good often, and have not ever known an unkind word about it. Within 10 miles of me there are 11 private runways, and one airport. They all seem to have equally good relations with the community as far as I know.

I agree that we need to inspire young people. A part of that inspiration must be to demonstrate that you really have to want something to make it happen. Flying your computer around won't cut it for long. You've got to devote youself to it for real. Which of us long time aviators here has not had to devote themselves for years? We also have to show that we don't just sit back and watch regulation fence us in. We participate in the process, and flex our wings. We go to the airport, and pitch in. We help at the flyins, and give rides if we are able. As my aviator uncle of East Budleigh used to tell me: "Don't break the law, change it!". If people want change, they have to make it happen, not just wait for the other guy - he's waiting for you! Newcomers need to see this in action....

I hope that I can inspire some young people the way I was inspired 40 years ago. I used to bicycle 11 miles to the local airport, just to look for something I could do. My energy was quickly harnessed, and better yet, it was with helicopters. I can think of four active pilots who all started flying because I gave them their first flight. I hope there are others, of whom I am unaware. I'm not done yet....

We need to demonstrate that we, general aviation, are a unified team of people with a common interest, which we welcome newcomers to embrace. The in fighting presents a poor, and fragmented image of us. Would the newcomers here read some of the posts, and think we're a team? Perhaps not! A family who jab from time to time - okay. Venom, I'm not interested...

I invite people onto PPRuNe, with the promise that once they sift through some tomfoolery, there is a wealth of wisdom and experience to be drawn upon here.

By the way IO, I enjoyed your email about your flying the TBM. It took me back to my Cheyenne days! Thanks for thinking of me!

[Crash one]

If I am to consider myself reprimanded I would like to clarify the facts. I never at any time questioned IO540s credentials, in fact I admire them, I was only asking why the subject of heavy metal should be discussed on a forum primarily concerned with LAA, BMAA types. I have never been jealous of another person or their achievements in my life. Also, not that I was specifically accused of such, I have never tried to claim credit for achievements that I did not deserve (I am no Walter Mitty). I do not profess to know the intricacies of GPS either, nor am I ashamed of that. What I actually said was, If someone asks a question in all innocence they are immediatly jumped on by the experts who seem to take great delight in pointing out how stupid the question was. If I have offended IO540 then I apologise, but I do not think I deserve the title of jealous child.

[vanHorck]

Luckily IO540 does not belong to the pedants who take great delight in pointing out how stupid posters can be. Although he can be harsh in his criticism, for such a delight one needs to look a little further....

Back soon from the Middle East, I think you'll find IO more of a knowledgeable and likable Disney character!

:ok:

[Lister Noble]

I went flying for an hour and a half this morning,L4 Cub,hand swing start,jump in ,run up against the chocks,hop out ,remove chocks and bimbled around East Anglia just for fun.
That's just why I learned to fly
Nowadays I don't post as much as I used to when I first started flying just over 4 years ago,I think the reason is when I first had my licence,and also more so when learning as I had lots of questions that I was not always able to ask my instructor as we only flew three days a week.
I never felt intimidated but now have less questions to pose.
I must be getting older 'cos I think I said something like this earlier?;)
Lister:)

[IO540]

JW411 - of course we know each other over a cup of tea in the airport restaurant and I would never suggest you and the half a dozen others that sit around are the "sad scene" I referred to. Plus I meet up with others there. But that is about half a dozen to a dozen people - at a pretty busy GA airport. I would guess that 95-99% of the people who are based there do not hang around at all socially. The virtual closure of the 2nd restaurant killed off most of the "community" which was there, too. This is a very long way from the kind of vibrant social scene which would draw people to consider flying to start with, or indeed to remain flying after they get their PPL, when nearly everybody is turfed out and left to fend to themselves.

C1 - I only posted that stuff for fun, as a performance comparison. The Jetprop and the TBM are firmly "GA" and the 737 was just a sim (as I posted). I thought that a fantastic 300-euro 737-full-sim deal would be of interest to others, too. Performance comparisons are highly relevant. I have never flown a Tiger Moth and would leave it to others 100% to post on such a thread, for example. I have also never claimed to have done something I haven't done, nor have I used the rather common forum phraseology which can be "so easily" taken as meaning I have done more.

Sorry for the delay in replying; I am in Jordan and had no internet for the past few days. Back now at a decent hotel :)

[Contacttower]

I often read a lot of what is being said on here even if I don't actually post anything. I discovered PPRuNe shortly after completing my PPL in 2006 and I found it a massive help, in fact I learnt more about flying in general and all the ancillary aspects of it from here than I did during my PPL course. It meant that I was no longer at the mercy of the rather variable knowledge of my various instructors and it really opened my eyes to the aviation world out there.

After I passed my PPL no one suggested to me what to do next, the possibility of flying to other countries in different aircraft seemed remote and because most of my instructors were not of a long standing GA background there did not seem to be much help available in that respect. PPRuNe filled that gap and I think accelerated my confidence in flying, making me aware of things that I wasn't before.

The question of why people stop flying is easily answered I think and although the title question of this thread is harder...I assume there is some link. All I'd say is that I'm not sure why experienced pilots are leaving, but I wish they wouldn't.:)

[mary meagher]

There is a fine tradition in the Western Hemisphere of basic flying for fun, which includes hanging around the clubhouse exchanging war stories.

Can't resist sharing a simple summary of my flying this day, not far from Oxford (the original Oxford, in England). Arrived at the gliding club (oh no,here she goes again) and helped drag out the toys. As I need to fly these days with a safety pilot, snaffled an old buddy and he sat in the back seat while I flew it up the wire, and at 1,300 did a half turn spin just for the hell of it, and a circuit (final turn only slightly lower than it should have been).And then until 3.30 made myself useful by retrieving gliders back to the launchpoint, etc.

At last a K-13 became available - it was a very busy day. The T-21 open cockpit glider had launched just before us, it was gaining height impressively.
We connected with a reasonable thermal over the town, which just kept getting stronger and stronger, broke off the climb 200' below cloud base to maintain a good lookout for the 25 or 30 gliders having a ball local soaring.
Five to six knot thermals under every likely cloud, and some useful streets.
Began to feel guilty after 40 minutes of joy, realising somebody else might like a turn before the day went flat, so we had to throw it all away with a few spins down from 4,000'. Winch launch cost £6, glider cost 30 pence a minute. Work it out.

My only problem is that I havn't found a sensible gliding website to visit.
Glider pilot net isn't really sensible. Perhaps the PPRuNe people would consider setting up a forum just for us? There are a few who post on private flying from time to time, but it seems to emphasise power.

I do both, actually, but perhaps you can guess what I like best of all.....

[eharding]

Perhaps the PPRuNe people would consider setting up a forum just for us?


Ooooh - you're so sly.

Call me Nostradamus, but I'd say that after 6 months of the Pprune Glider Forum ("Empowering the Unpowered") quietly thriving over the winter without the rest of us really noticing, come next spring, you'll announce a 'competition' weekend, and 800 Glider forumites are tasked with posting on as many and varied Pprune forums as they can - the further from topic the better - with points being awarded posting on a forum with the maximum distance from the home forum as possible. The only rule is you have to post in a font that is *really* difficult to see.

The rest of us won't be able to get a word in edgeways for the whole weekend.

On the other hand, it would mean 800 new forum members....which might shut IO540 up for a while.

[IO540]

Isn't there a gliding forum already? The gliding community is far and away the best organised part of European GA, with by far the most political support at every level.

[chrisN]

There are at least three gliding forum places, one of which Mary has referred to above. Dealing with that first, it is on gliderpilot.net, and has two fora within it. One is “UK recreational aviation soaring” (“uras”) which is now intended for serious discussion ( Glider Pilot Network > uk.rec.aviation.soaring (http://uras.gliderpilot.net/) ). The other is “urasb” which is intended for banter (hences the additional “b”).

Unlike Mary, I find it quite useful. Just a matter of taste I suppose. It is almost, but not entirely, subscribed to by UK glider pilots.

The predecessor to that is an American-based site, with a mainly American but to some extent worldwide constituency of contributors, "ras" - recreational aviation soaring.
( Discussions - rec.aviation.soaring | Google Groups (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/topics) ) It is one of many recreational aviation fora on Google groups. There is also a link to it on gliderpilot.net.

The third area I have in mind was set up by a British expat who now lives in America and flies gliders there. He used to be a significant contributor on ras, and still occasionally posts there, but was evidently dissatisfied in some way with that and set up his own group of fora. I look at it occasionally, but it doesn't seem to be very well used. ( Silentflight.com (http://www.silentflight.com/) )

There may be others that I don't know about, for example I strongly suspect that there is one in Germany.

Regarding I0540's last point, about organisation and political clout, I don't know exactly what we do differently from anybody else in general aviation. What I have noticed, when attending meetings or venues where volunteers are required from air sports or general aviation participants, there seem to be a higher proportion of glider pilots who come forward than others. I have no idea why this should be the case.

Just as one example, when I was at a Royal Aero club parliamentary committee meeting one day, everyone round the table was asked to introduce themselves for the benefit of one or two new people, and say where they came from. More than half the people who were attending that day and had volunteered to work on that committee were glider pilots, all known to me personally, because we have been working together there and elsewhere over many years for the common good as we saw it.

I saw the same thing at the FAI, which is the world governing body for air sports. I first went there as the UK delegate from the Royal Aero Club (not for gliding particularly) to attend the newly-formed FAI environmental commission. Once again, I found most of the people who volunteered to work on that commission were glider pilots, though some also flew power.

Chris N

[mary meagher]

I was hoping to find a well displayed and intelligent site of discussion, just like on PPRuNe "private flying" forum, but o dear....

On clicking onto the "discussions, rec.av.soaring" site, the first items that turn up are

See Hot Sexy Star Sex Videos
Cheap UGG Boots wholesale.....
and goes on to
Need undamaged landing gear for PZL Krosno
Indoor Skydiving,
and How to avoid soaring into Mexico by mistake.....

Mostly it looks like a string of classified adverts, for sale, wanted, advice needed on how to replace Blaniks and how do I get my fancy instruments to work properly! Okay, on PPRuNe forums we do tend to the odd bit of character assasination and scorn, but on the whole the discussions, displayed in full and easily readable, are interesting and informative. I am sure that when the recession recedes enough to make private flying affordable once more, the number of knowlegeable contributors will improve.

[Rod1]

“with by far the most political support at every level.”

Political power in European aviation is an interesting subject. There are a number of alliances and some groups “control” certain key comities. If I were to pick who gets what they want most often then it would be French micro pilots. The French almost always get what they want in EASA.

Rod1

[DOC.400]

Just because we ain't posting, doesn't mean we're not flying!! := ;)

I have a quote from architect Sir Norman Foster on the wall in my office that goes like this:

"I think you see things with a lot of clarity when you are fly......No matter how many times you do it, there is still a sense of absolute wonderment"

Still a sense of absolute wonderment, even after ten years..........:ok:

[IO540]

I think gliding has powerful friends because gliding has always been a part of the military services, and in all of the world the aviation regulators are drawn from the military - even more strongly so outside w. Europe where most countries are de facto run by the military.

Also, gliding does not generate any great emotions because it is a purely hobby activity, done purely (well... usually) OCAS, and this sidesteps any airspace issues.

As soon as you get to normal GA, you have airspace entry issues and the usual vested interests crawl out of the woodwork.

When you get to IFR GA (airways) you get the absolute business in elitist behaviour on the part of the regulators.

[SkyHawk-N]

Just because we ain't posting, doesn't mean we're not flying!!

Indeed. Less BS and more flying, then forums like this one may become a more interesting place to visit.

[flybymike]

In fact a little less conversation, a little more action please.
All this aggravation aint satisfactioning me.