How many pilots actually know about their aircraft?

[Rusty Cessna]

hiya folks,

I was just thinking, to do a PPL(A) you do all the written exams, but the PPL(H) comes with a Type specific exam.

I was just wondering if the majority of pilots actually have a reasonably in depth knowledge of the type they most fly (fixed wing that is). I mean do most pilots upon PPL training actually read the POH/FM other than what they have to, and do they read any of the published "Pilot's notes".

Just curious,
Safe flying,
Rusty.

[LowNSlow]

I've always made a point of finding out as much as I can about any aircraft I fly, every different type has its idiosyncracies. Eg, don't side slip a C172 with full flap, the nose tucks down into the direction of slip.

If there's a type you want to know more about, see if there's a website / owners club. You can get your hands on the POH and maintenance manuals for pretty much anything these days.

[Rusty Cessna]

There isn't actually a specific I wanted to research, Just was flicking through the POH today seeing what I knew and what I didn't, I was actually pleased to find things I wasn't too hot on, now I am though!

Thanks for your input LnS,
Regards,
Rusty

[M14P]

You are, of course, right on the money. There are too many misconceptions around about all sorts of facets of aircraft (you can't slip any Cessna with full flap, T/O flap on a Cherokee is one notch etc). Many folks are very happy to just to listen to the bar room pundits.

I have found that the owner pilot (who is so often chastised for not flying with instructors enough) usually has a pretty good knowledge of his or her systems & limitations.

Looking back at older (pre-1970) Flight Manuals it is not hard to see part of the root of the problem - they were absolute rubbish. The detail was sketchy to say the least and if you couldn't get hold of the handbook that accompanied the A/C when new then that was it - no info.

Manuals are much better now, and much more standardised which makes finding the info you need quick & easy.

Anybody doing a proficiency check with me will start with a sit down 'informal' run through of the aircraft systems. Remember - the Prof Check is recurrent training, not a chop ride. Pointing somebody towards the books is, I feel, a good way of encouraging further knowledge.

[Rusty Cessna]

I have to say I totally agree with both of you. However I don't think that the lack of knowledge is a deliberate "I can't be bothered" thing, well it probably is in some cases, I think that there is the possibility that the problem may lie in some of the instruction.

I mean I am pleased that my flying school gives me all the information I need, but also the skills in which to build new knowledge. Maybe some schools are a little too happy to just point to the books and let the student figure it out, its good to know there are instructors who think like you M14P.

I suppose that also this brings in the issue of how many people actually know about all the legislation. I mean how many pilots actually have a good working knowledge of the ANO and AIP, do they read the AIS and updates, I know my knowledge and understanding isn’t as good as I would like it to be. I know a certain amount is show and taught during training, but I have noticed the tendency for pilots to look things up in the "pooleys" or some other (good I might add) publication, personally I prefer to get the official version from the AIP. Again just curious.

Finally, does anyone think it might be wise to get a POH/FM for personal use if flying a type from a school?

Regards, interesting topic,
Rusty.

[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: Rusty Cessna ]

[criticalmass]

Rusty Cessna,

Very good idea to get a personal copy of a/c POH/FM even if flying a club a/c.

The only time you know too much about an aircraft is after you've sold it to someone else!

[Rusty Cessna]

Thanks critical,

Any ideas on where I can get one for a C-152?
I don't have specifics on me at present.

Regards,
Rusty

[Final 3 Greens]

LowNslow

Sorry to wander off thread, but thank goodness you agree with me about the wisdom of slipping a 172 with full flap. I got beaten up on a thread last year for suggesting that this was not a bright idea :cool:

[FlyingForFun]

Couldn't agree more with the general need for pilots to know more about their aircraft...

Around 3 hours after getting my PPL, I suffered an alternator failure. I got the aircraft home without incident, and chatted to a couple of instructors who were impressed with the way I handled the situation.

Talking about it later to other private pilots, though, and several of them did not have a clear understanding of what an alternator does, what problems it causes when it dies - and also, what problems it doesn't cause (e.g. it won't affect the running of the engine in most aeroplanes). Many pilots not only didn't know this, but were surprised that I did.

I think the training in this area is particularly poor. Having spent lots of time in my "other" hobby working on classic cars, I have a reasonable (but not great) understanding of those aeroplane components which are commong to cars. But my knowledge of control systems, for example, is extremely bad, since I haven't come across a car equivalent to learn from.

When my car develops a problem I don't recognise, I pull over to the side of the road, where I can investigate the problem, and if necessary call out a breakdown service. You can't do that in the air - if something goes wrong, you must have a good enough understanding to make important decisions: can I fix it; if not, what can I do to prevent the problem from getting worse; is it serious enough to need to divert; is it so serious a precautionary landing might be justified, etc???

Please, everyone (me included!), go and learn about your aircraft. One day, you might need to know. And instructors, some more help here would be great!

FFF
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[CSX001]

Back to the subject of personal copies of POHs...

Clearly a good idea in general. A note of caution though. Cessna built 152s for many years. So did Reims Aviation. There were lots of versions that varied in many details, some significant, others less so. Make sure that you get a POH that relates very specifically for the type and year of aircraft you fly, or treat it very loosely as a guide only.

Same goes for PA28s and most other training types.

[Unusual Attitude]

Slipping a C172 at full flap is not a problem, this is something I looked into in great detail after buying a share in one.

In the POH for my aircraft there is even a section which states to expect "some elevator oscillation when slipping with flap settings greater than 20 deg. However this does not affect control of the airplane."

I have since tried it from altitude and its just as the book said. Nothing to worry about if you know what it is.

Getting back onto the subject though I think this is possibly something that might be picked up on your BFR.
I did mine about 3 months ago and the instructor was very thorough during the walkround asking many technical type specific question on my aircraft.

Don't know if this is an actual BFR requirement but I would agree that a good working knowledge of any aircraft you fly and its systems is a must.

Regards

UA

[ 05 August 2001: Message edited by: Unusual Attitude ]

[Rusty Cessna]

Good to see everyone agrees,

Thanks for all the input. FFF, sounds like a job well done. I'm interested in how your failure started, and the procedures in which you took to deal with it.

Rusty.

[FlyingForFun]

Rusty,

I wasn't going to bore everyone, but since you asked :D

Was general handling in the Portsmouth area in a Piper Warrior. Had a FIS with Solent (mainly because I heard a few other aircraft on frequency in the area, didn't have visual with them, and wanted them to know I was there). Electrics on at the time were strobes+beacon, two radios, xponder, as well as anything wired through the battery master switch (e.g. turn coordinator).

Noticed the Low Volts light appeared to glowing slightly. Wasn't even sure if it was glowing or if I imagined it, so I pressed the Push To Test, and it lit up. Thought I must have been imagining it. Then, for no real reason, decided to turn off the radio I wasn't using anyway. Glowing effect immediately disappeared - clearly I wasn't imagining it, there was a real problem with the charging system. :mad:

I know that the alternator doesn't affect the engine in the PA28, so diverting never even occurred to me. (Note - doesn't apply to all aircraft! I know some aircraft have one set of mags and one coil/distributor. The coil needs an external source of power, so if you lose this you'll be running on the mags only with no backup. Know your aeroplane!) Instead, I immediately pointed the aircraft in the general direction of home (White Waltham) while deciding what to do.

I turned the second radio on, then recycled the alternator. Light was still glowing, no difference. Turned the radio off, which extinguished the warning light, and carried on. Within a minute or two, the light was glowing again, despite not adding any electrical load. The problem appeared to be getting worse.

Debated whether to inform Solent. In the end decided to declare a Pan. The main reason for this was that I didn't know how much juice the alternator was producing, or how much was left in the battery. I'd been flying for around an hour, so it was possible that the battery was already dead. If that was the case, I would soon disappear off the radio and off the SSR screen, and I didn't want Solent to worry if that happened - hence the Pan. Side benefits were that I got permission to turn the xponder off, which resulted in the Low Volts light going out again.

Next, started to plan my route back. The direct route takes me through the Odiham MATZ, and that was out of the question. Didn't really want to go over it, either, due to the vertical proximity of the east of the MATZ (near where I'd want to be) to the London TMA. So I planned a route to the west of the MATZ.

Got rid of Solent, then turned that radio off too. Shortly after that, the Low Volts light came on again, so I turned the strobes off. Decided to change fuel tanks while I still had a working electric fuel pump.

Got back to Waltham, turned the radio on, and declared a Pan on Waltham Radio. Made a normal approach, but was aware that the electric fuel pump may not be 100% effective - if I'd had to go around, I was rellying on the mechanical pump to get fuel to the engine. Performed one of the best landings I've done for a long time :cool: raced the fire truck down the runway :cool: then taxied the aeroplane over to Engineering and let them sort it out.

Disclaimer: I'm not a mechanic, so don't rely on any information I've given here. Also, the information only applies to the particular aircraft I was flying - yours may be different (and probably is different, unless it's the same type)!

Well, I did warn you it wasn't all that interesting, but hopefully someone has learnt something useful from it!

Take care up there!

FFF
--------

(PS - if anyone from Solent App is reading this, I never did get round to saying Thank You! Great service, very understanding and helpful, and even phoned White Waltham to let them know I was coming, and that I might be landing with no radio. :) )

[Rusty Cessna]

Sounds like a good job, thanks for sharing. Seems like reducing electrical load to a minimum, checking the circuit breakers and warning lights is the way to go in that situation whilst recycling the master a few times.

Well done,
Rusty.

[Kermit 180]

This point keeps reappearing. Personally I agree with all of your comments here, very interesting.

I personally encourage my students to work through a quiz sheet I make up for each aeroplane. This encourages them to read through the POH to find the answers. I also recommend spending some money in getting hold of AFM's and POH notes if possible. You can be surprised by what you find.

Go forth, keep learning, keep flying.

Kermie :)

[Kermit 180]

Unusual Attitude - Re your comment on the 172 and slipping.

I think this argument stems from the early models of 172 that were equipped with 'barn door' flaps (up to 40 degrees). There were problems with the flaps actually blanketing the elevators.

Kermie ;)

[Julian]

Definitely good idea.

I own a POH for each type of aircraft I have flown. Its also useful giving you a rough idea on stuff like W&B at home before you go out to the club and get your plane - BUT dont forget to rework it using the data for the actual plane you will be using!

Julian.

[Low_and_Slow]

Re: 172s and full flaps, done it many times. Not something to do the first time on short final (try at altitude) and also be wary of slips with full flaps on older 172s with barn-door flaps (40 degrees).


-d

[FNG]

FFF, well done that lad. Kermit, the quiz sheet you mention is a good idea. When I checked out on my first new type after getting my licence, the club asked me to complete a quiz the answers to which could be found by a careful reading of the POH. Topics included performance limitations, aircraft systems, a weight and balance calculation, a take-off distance calculation and so forth. I was provided with a copy of the POH and also kept my completed answer sheet for use as a quick refresher if I haven't flown the aircraft for a while.

[M14P]

I find it slightly interesting that within a thread about using POH data and info there are folks banging on about the sideslip/flap thing. (I used this example to make my point)

SOME types of Cessna had a little note in the FLIGHT MANUAL(!) cautioning against it. It was never precluded nor did it apply to every high-winged Cessna. Despite this, rumour abounds - this exactly highlights the original point. Most people do not read the FM thoroughly enough.

STOP RUMOUR - Use the facts!!!

[Rusty Cessna]

I agree its vital to use the data in the POH/FM for the specific aircraft you will fly.

I think maybe this whole C172 full flap thing (an example) might have escalated from some people reading the note and not doing it, telling other people and soon it gets to the point where a lot of people are not slipping it because the more experienced pilot has said not to, and not looking it up to check if its alright to do the manoeuvre.

Anyway, where can I buy a POH/FM?

Thanks,
Rusty.

[Kermit 180]

M14P, perhaps the 172 being referred to was an early model with the aforesaid flap range. If not then it is indeed bollocks. I have flown other Cessna high wing types with a similar warning, but it is true that not all of them have it, or indeed, are affected by it.

Have a read of the AFM/POH in detail, as suggested.

Kermie :rolleyes:

[Unusual Attitude]

Kermit, mine is in fact a 1979 C172N with 40 flaps and slipping at 40 is fine, I can assure you I've done it several times!!
I too had heard the tale of not slipping but wanted to know what happened in case i needed to use it in an emergency.

You just feel a slight buffet/oscillation through the elevator, nothing to get worked up about at all. I think the worry however is that it might be confused with pre stall buffet.

As for totally blanking the elevator I cant really see this happening. In straight and level flight the fully extended flaps do however increase the downwash from the wing altering the angle of attack of the tailplane causing the nose to pitch up slightly as happens with any set of flaps.

In a sideslip one side of the elevator may be partially blanked from the oncoming airflow by the fuselage causing a turbulent buffet on the elevator which may be further aggravated by the effect of having a greater flap extension, hence the warning.

Sorry to bore you all, that's just my theory, can you tell I got 94% on my ATPL Principles of Flight exam last month ! :D

The C172 drops like a brick with 40 flap anyway so if you need to side slip aswell then you've got something badly wrong and should think about going around, unless your practising PFL's that is in which case its an excellent way of loosing height very quickly !

Good to see people interested in the aircraft they fly though.
If you cant get your hands on a POH you should try a set of handling notes from Pooleys. I have these for the PA-28, C152 & C172 and they cover most of the relevant facts that you'll find in the POH.

Regards

UA

[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Unusual Attitude ]

[Too Fat to Fly]

Try www.esscoaircraft.com (http://www.esscoaircraft.com)

They have flight manuals for just about anything with wings on it - past or present.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

As a rotary pilot I have to take a type specific exam on each type I get rated for. I also try to own the POH for each one.

It definitely pays to read up the night or day before a flight in a different type to what you have been flying recently. I flew in a 206 after spending the last 30 odd hours flying the R22/44 (carb heat and mixture on these two could be a problem with out the guard installed!). I really had to slow down and sort my scan out. Confusing at times.

I would say you can never know too much about the aircraft you are flying. Owning a POH is a great place to start.

Fly safe.

[A and C]

To go back to the question about knowing your aircraft the answer is that the technical knowlage of the average PPL is poor and getting worse , the reasons for this are first that unlike old farts like me most people who are starting flying have not spent there youth keeping old cars and motorbikes running for day to day transport and lack the very basics of "how an engine works" so the instructor starts from a very low student knowlage base.

Most instructors are pilots and dont want to go near the the greasey low life in the hangars (to much like work) and so most technical trainning takes the form of a talk in front of the white bord and a quick walk around the aircraft that is some times backed up with a few cutaway aircraft bits.

This all peeks when the student is female as the students mechanical knowlage is likely to be allmost nill and the last thing on the young male instructors mind is how the pistons are atached to the rest of the engine !.

The last thing that gets in the way is the "flying myth" i dont know how meny times i,v been told dont do XYZ and been unable to find the limitation in the flight manual for the aircraft ,you will probably find that it is a limitation on the tiger moth or some other long gone relic and of no importance to a modern aircraft.

[ 08 August 2001: Message edited by: A and C ]

[Genghis the Engineer]

Agree totally with A&C, and of-course it perpetuates itself because some of those students will be instructors in a few years.

It annoys me a lot just how difficult many flying clubs make access to the full POH, forcing people to buy substandard commercial versions, or ever to allow a pilot sight of the full aircraft logbook. These organisations, who ought to be promoting best practice seem to me to be perpetuating bad practices.

G

[kabz]

First lesson, I bought a sectional, a AIM (Aeronautical Information Manual), a regs book, and a POH for the 1977 Cessna 172 Skyhawk.

Having a copy of the POH and learning the checklists, systems etc was mandatory.

Same for the Citabria, cept, we photocopied the manual.

American way ?