The value of a First Officer versus the value of a Captain

[the aviator1977]

I would be interested in hearing opinions from Captains and First Officers on how they feel they are valued relative to their colleague sat next to them in the cockpit by airline management/accountants.

i.e Does a First Officer feel he is paid relatively well or not compared to a Captain taking into account each persons experience and vice versa? If an airline has £x to pay for two pilots up front, how would you fairly divide the pay 60:40 or 70:30. How do airlines decide this?

Are some UK airlines shortsighted in terms of investing in future Captains (i.e current FO's) and do they lack structure in the training/preparation for FO's to meet the challenges of being in command?

Are pilots de-valueing themselves by accepting lower T's and C's or is it down to market forces or a combination of both? How can WE as a collective group of pilots in the UK protect ourselves from the current trend of lowering T's and C's or do we just have to wait for an improvment in the economy? Is it out of our control?

Regards

The Aviator 1977

[B737-pilot]

Well. T&C this is a long story.
Do you want to relocate, how many hours do you have? Lhs or Rhs.
And bear in mind that many companies went bust in some parts of the world. Don't forget about the type rating.
And i think the key factors are : We love our job and many of us don't have a back-up plan (like being a wall street trader :cool:).

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I think with the growing numbers of 250hr pilots going straight to the rhs of medium size jets at the likes of ezy and fr, and the clear preference that these airlines have for recruiting low hour pilots rather than guys with previous experience, the value of the modern day f/o is without doubt in decline. Certainly in the view of airline management and accountants. New entrants to the industry are being offered, and are accepting, ever worse T&Cs. As a result the position is being exploited. Certainly at my airline the objective is to fill the seat as cheaply as possible with no regard to what the role actually entails. You can either view this as a side affect of supply exceeding demand, or a longer term problem.

[superced]

a first officer is a captain on training.

[411A]

a first officer is a captain on training.
Some airlines would have a hard time believing that short statement.:rolleyes:

It's strictly supply versus demand, always has been, and unlikely to change anytime soon.

[412SP]

In some cases, the FO may have more experience than the captain, and at most large carriers the FO's have all been captains before.

Not that either seat is rocket science...

Seniority rules and always will in 121 flying.

[411A]

Seniority rules and always will in 121 flying.


This is not entirely correct.
I can offhand recall a couple of 14CFR121 aircarriers where this is not the case.
IE: generally true, but not always.

[412SP]

You're right. There's always an exception to the rule. Some carriers hire street captains, there's extenuating circumstances, etc, etc...

[captjns]

Regarding captains in training, 411 says:

Some airlines would have a hard time believing that short statement.:rolleyes:

It's strictly supply versus demand, always has been, and unlikely to change anytime soon.

Not entirely true for cariers in India and China and some ME Carriers. Ab initio entrants are cultivated from day one into the airlines' culture up to their upgrade and sometimes beyond the line Captain.

F/Os at carriers ala FR or EZ may be a different story where the pay for their training, sit in the rigt seat until it's there time to upgrade and away they go after a year or two after their command upgrade to bigger and better. I don't know the philosophy of FR or EZ if the provide subtle hints or training while in the right seat to prepare their first officers for the left seat. Perhaps those pilots could shed light on the subject.

[fade to grey]

To be honest as the captain;
1.I'm legally accountable
2.I'll be sacked if it gos wrong
3.I could be prosecuted

as the FO:
1.Make the right calls/SOPs and any of the above will be unlikely for them

hence pay should be 80/20, yes , yes I'm biased :}

[Mikehotel152]

I don't know the philosophy of FR or EZ if the provide subtle hints or training while in the right seat to prepare their first officers for the left seat. Perhaps those pilots could shed ligt on the subject.

From the first day an FR cadet starts they are given access to a 'route to command' set of training notes and questionnaires which assume you are preparing for command from Day 1. The formal process starts at your first line check when you are assessed for command potential. You are expected to be studying throughout your first few years at the company so that you can immediately embark on upgrade when you have the minimum hours.

That learning curve is unfortunately being curtailed because of P2F. Sure, these cadets can pass a type rating and can operate the switches to the satisfaction of the company representative, but it's the FO who anticipates a problem I haven't considered who can really save the day (and for the bean-counters, fuel and/or time). You can't teach that in a classroom. That skill has to be gained through hard-earned experience.

Experienced FOs are not born, they are developed from 250hr newly qualified CPL/IR holders. I am on 500 hours on type now and feel I've learned a heck of a lot since I started this career, but I am modest enough to know that I have jack-all experience to call upon. Let's face it, the standard uneventful flights that I fly are the easy bit. It's when the chips are down that experience counts.

Does a First Officer feel he is paid relatively well or not compared to a Captain taking into account each persons experience and vice versa?

Well, I believe in a meritocracy where everyone is paid relative to their input to the money-making process. Do I do as much of the physical work on a flying day as the Captain? Yes, easily. Do I have the responsibility or stress of the Captain? No. At my company the Captain earns at least twice as much as the FO. Is he worth twice as much to the overall operation? Yes, probably, but he doesn't do twice as much work.

Just my humble opinions.
MH152

[fireflybob]

As Captain the value of the First Officers I fly with is priceless - I couldn't do my job effectively without them.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

To be honest as the captain;
1.I'm legally accountable
2.I'll be sacked if it gos wrong
3.I could be prosecuted

as the FO:
1.Make the right calls/SOPs and any of the above will be unlikely for them



I'm not so sure about that. While clearly the captain carries ultimate responsibility, it is defined as "crew error" in my airline. If it goes badly wrong it is most likely both pilots concerned will be dismissed. Just ask the TNT crew who made a mess at EMA and then BHX. And the Emirates crew who barely got airbourne in Melbourne. The F/Os' were shown the door along with their Captains'. It is interesting that some captains' believe they are the only one who will encounter serious repurcussions in the event of a major :mad: up.

[Mr.Bloggs]

Captains are bred from F/O's, like it or not 411A. As were you.

So they may as well be trained along the way, by example as much as anything else granted. Your attitude on this topic stinks, old (very old) chap.

[captjns]

In my some 25 plus years as an airline training captain, I have and still enjoy imparting knowledge to first officers be they brand new or ready for their upgrade. I guess part of the imparting of knowledge is that I hope they remember what it was like being a brand new fresh out of the box first officer. I hope they will remember what it was like to fly with the worst of the worst beast master of captains to the best of the best nurturing captains that provided good CRM, techniques, and adherences to SOPs, etc. I guess what I'm trying to convey is thay when that F/O assumes their command, that they too will provide good information, and be patient to their first fresh out of the box F/O that they will be paired with.

perhaps some captains feel it an imposission flying with a newbie. After all when they interviewed for their job, probably as an F/O "nurturing kind captain was not part of their job description. But I'm sure more than less old salts feel it as a passing on of a legacy from one generation to the next, and automatically include the term teacher as part of their own job description.

BTW... I've always said that some of my best instructors have been the students I've flown with:ok:.

[poina]

fireflybob,

Sir, your post # 13 is the truest statement on this thread. I might also add my thanks to all the FO's who I benefited from when new on different types and they were old hands. Any captain who can't learn from the FO is too arrogant for this profession!

[clanger32]

Captjns/Fireflybob,
At this point it's highly highly unlikely i'll ever get to make the leap to employed pilot. Combination of factors and it's not certain, things can always change, but thank you. Sincerely. Thankyou for showing a human side and I consider it a great shame that in all likelihood I will never get to fly with the likes of you.

The Captain is clearly the master of the ship. Clearly it is the skipper that carries ultimate responsibility, but I would suggest that even the greenest of FOs has a vital role to play on the flightdeck. I get so tired of people's short memories, when they slate the newbies and their lack of experience - there seems a lack of understanding that even the most grizzled of 20000+ hour captains was once also that 200hr newbie (albeit quite possibly not in the RHS of an MRJT at that point)

[Chesty Morgan]

The basic fact is that if you haven't got one then you can't have the other.

So, as far as the operation is concerned, they are both equally as valuable.

[Callsign Kilo]

Some of the best Captains that you fly with are those that respect your position as a FO. I have continually flown with a handful of skippers from my days of relative infancy to a later position of greater experience. They have always made me feel very comfortable in their presence and are inviting of opinion.

Alternatively there is always some arsehole who believes that the flight deck isn't a democracy and even if the FO is right, he is wrong (that old "you may be right but I'm left" expression). When you learn a little bit more about their background, their demeanour in the flight deck appears psychological. They appear relatively insecure with regards to their own position and abilities. Instead they conceal it with the "I'm the Captain" bullsh1t and all the other bloody bravado which they feel the need to exert.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Alternatively there is always some arsehole who believes that the flight deck isn't a democracy and even if the FO is right

I understand your point but in fairness the flight deck is not a democracy. A final decision has to be made and that has to come from the captain. The f/o's input should receive consideration but a democracy suggets complete equality which cannot always be the case, particularly in a non-normal situation. There needs to be a gradient in the flightdeck from left seat to right - just how much of a gradient required to achieve optimum levels of safety and efficiency is the matter of some debate.

[Callsign Kilo]

Granted

However outside the NN context. I talk generally with regard to day by day operation. The guy who won't let you engage VNAV because he doesn't really understand it, the guy who puts his hand on the flap lever dispelling a look of contempt in your direction when you really don't need it at that stage, the guy who asks you how much fuel you would like to take on your sector yet completely ignores you reasoning and orders what he was really going to take all along.....without explanation....the list is endless :

He is usually the guy who plants it on the last leg after commenting on your operation all day long; yet he blames it on tiredness, or that his seat pitch was all out of whack, or that he got some inexplicable sink in the last 50 feet! :yuk:

[cavortingcheetah]

If Michael O' Leary can swing the single crew concept then the whole of this thread will be as redundant as the second pilot.

[qwertyuiop]

Callsign Kilo,

This is just an observation based on many years. A lot of F/O's who openly voice your opinions go on to be very worst Captains. Most F/O's can accept they are not Captain but some get VERY frustrated. A lot of the frustrated F/O's then go on to become the exact Captains they hated. The desire to make all the calls turns them into the nightmare they so disliked.

You must be a Boeing pilot (lucky). Have you ever asked your Captain why he doesn't like VNAV departures or why he wants a certain fuel figure?

[411A]

This is just an observation based on many years. A lot of F/O's who openly voice your opinions go on to be very worst Captains. Most F/O's can accept they are not Captain but some get VERY frustrated. A lot of the frustrated F/O's then go on to become the exact Captains they hated. The desire to make all the calls turns them into the nightmare they so disliked.

Yup, so very true.

If First Officers desire a democracy, they had better learn to look for it elsewhere...other than the airliner flight deck.

[Jonty]

All very true. But if you don't want to hear the answer, why ask the question?

[Brix]

I have a total time of over 12000 hours and most LH people I fly with have less experience and are of a younger age. They all know that I can be a very valuable source if they treat me with respect but many of them treat me like a piece of sh!t.

I have no prospect of becoming a captain again as I have been for some time before making the wrong move because of seniority, no expansion and a management that is not worth any title.

Not only am I trapped because of age limits hitting plans more and more but the ever so often requirement of 500 hours PIC o n t y p e is what discriminates me and destroys all hopes for a better future. Having over 3000 hours in command on medium jet is not helpful at all.

Nobody has told me about this before. This is defying humanity.

But who cares.

[Callsign Kilo]

I agree, I've seen a certain degree of emulation between those once sitting on the right who also once complained insesently about flying with particular Captains. They are now in the hotseat and display similar traits.....but not everyone. There is no real frustration expressed with regard to not being or becoming a Captain within my lot. Generally the path to command occurs quickly or alternatively you choose not to take it. Believe me, the other frustrations that develop once sitting in the left seat are more prevalent currently!

Have I asked Captains who effectively want to make every last decision within the flightdeck why they disagree with my particular method. Generally no IF...
1) I know my method is the method expressed within our SOPs and OPs requirements and that he prefers an alternative due to lack of understanding, ease of use or just pure arrogance.
2) When I understand that questioning their particular reasoning or method
will only create tension for the remainder of the day.
3) When their decision will neither kill me or get me in trouble. It may frustrate me, however I will act professionally.

If he is being an unbearable prick throughout the entire day I might take it up once the parking brake is set and the engines are shut down on the last sector of the day. The flightdeck is no place for potential feuding. I have only ever
done this once and we resolved it amicably. If I were to feel threatened to the point that the Captains actions were affecting my ability, I would hand them
control. Not because I don't feel like playing any longer; because my ability has been hampered. I've never had to do this thankfully; but I would do it because I'm not going to **** about with a 60tonne aircraft in a fit of rage.

The best Captains are the ones who suggest another method or another approach tactfully. They give reasoning and by doing so have always ensured that I for one are receptive. These very Captains have helped mould many FOs. They also agree that point no.3 is particulary relevant to anyones learning curve. The line is drawn beyond that.

Just my two cents

[Uncle Wiggily]

RyanAir's idea of a First Officer:

http://www.madmind.de/madblog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/airplane.JPG

[411A]

RyanAir's idea of a First Officer:


At least with the inflatable, 'it' doesn't try to grab the tiller and proclaim...'it's my sector therefore I get to taxi the airplane'.

A decided advantage.;)

[jetjockey737]

411A...taxiing an aircraft is hardly the most challenging part of a day out, why not let him/her?

Vexed...probably the most sensible post I have seen on this forum for a long long time!!

[Mr.Bloggs]

The inflatable looks more like a captain to me. Overfed, stupid grin, unreceptive, bag of wind. Not you, 411A, you've clearly been let down.

[fantom]

The value of an FO (a Nav in my aircraft at the time) is, if you are forced down in the desert, you can eat him.

I learned this in the Royal Air Force.

[Whippersnapper]

There seem to be some very bitter, frustrated FOs on this thread, but thankfully many more calm and measured ones.

A decent Captain will always value the opinions of his/her FO, but may not always agree with them. As said before, it isn't a democracy and the steepness of the gradient has to vary with the circumstances. What the FO may perceive as arrogance could be cultural barriers in this multi-national industry, or could be a Captain become a little frustrated at a pushy, cocky FO, just as much as it may be an attitude problem in the Captain. There are just as many bolshy FOs as Captains, may be more due to them failing command selection/training.

A good captain will try to allow the FOs as much latitude as possible to expand their experience, knowledge and capability as circumstances allow, passing on tips and techniques without harassing or hounding the FO, in a constructive manner. At the same time, they need to get the primary job of flying the aircraft safely and economically. Sometimes, the conditions of the day don't lend themselves to a touchy-feely cockpit. Sometimes the Captain may be tired, a little under the weather or having issues at home which don't put them in the mood for chattiness. It's not a club or school on the line, so don't always expect that environment.

I stick to a simple rule - don't put the aircraft in a position that either pilot is not happy with. If the FO is uncomfortable with something, it's quite possible that they have seen some problem I have missed, so we discuss it. If I am confident that the matter is not a problem, the discussion should allay the FO's concerns. It would be very rare that a Captain would just overrule an FO without discussion (where time permits) or good reason.

[411A]

The value of an FO (a Nav in my aircraft at the time) is, if you are forced down in the desert, you can eat him.


Hmmm, would that be with mayonnaise, mustard, or ketchup?:rolleyes:

[prunetroll]

i wouldnt get too excited 411A.

if forced down in the desert, i'm pretty sure all bets are off :E incidentally, you sound like you've been around a while, i dare say you'd need cooking all night :yuk:

I understand your point but in fairness the flight deck is not a democracy. A final decision has to be made and that has to come from the captain

blah blah. find me someone who will disagree with that...
there is nobody. because its a statement of the obvious
these type of threads are funny - everyone gets on high horses, determined to have a heated debate, but there is nothing for any normal person to take issue with. we all, very occasionally, have to fly with someone in either seat, who's a bit of a w:mad:r for one reason or another, but we deal with it in a grown up way, get through the day safely and get on with life.

[winkle]

Have flown both LHS and RHS, but more times I found problems with the fella in the LHS as they couldnt cope with an experienced guy in the RHS. I always tried my best to be a good F/O as I knew from my time as the skipper how difficult it could be. The main problem children were the ones who had been in the company for 5 billion years and had never done anything else within avaition, talk about narrow minded!!!!!
I have also been a captain for many years and the toughest FOs were not the ones who had failed but the ones who had 5 mins experience and knew every answer in the book and had an answer for everything, bit like the phrase with a parallel - knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing- just a read across ya know.
Dont fly any more but might be tempted back for that perfect job- i wont hold my breath, mind you I would be more than happy to take 73 as per MOL (solo) just so long as he pays me accordingly - it would cost a lot more than the FOs wages:\

[changeover]

Great post Vexed(post 9)!

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

I was a real junior fo once, the most junior in the company.

I knew ****.

I got better though and came the day that I knew more than the new Captains that I flew with. That was annoying but, I kept my trap shut, as best I could, and kept on learning but with a much wareyer (sp?) eye on events.

Later on (much later on) I got my LH job and I'll tell you this one thing as a good ex FO turned Capt.

Listen to your FO. You'll be glad you did.

Here endeth the lesson.:ok:

[TopBunk]

I am in the position of never having flown with a captain with less experience than myself, but as a captain I have flown with many copilots/previous captains with as much/more experience than me and, for example, with test pilot credentials.

As far as I'm concerned, it is all about the Flight Deck atmosphere and CRM, both of which are fostered primarily by the captain.

Learning from my years as an FO and as a Captain, I believe that the crew teamwork concept is the only way forward, where all views and opinions are actively sought and valued in determining the decision made, albeit with the captain, necessarily, as the arbiter.

A TDODAR-type model (Time, Diagnosis, Options, Decisions, Actions, Review) is fundamental where all parties have the opportunity for their concerns and inputs to be heard.

Those who think that "the Captain as God" mentality is right just need to look at examples of certain Asian carriers in the last 2 decades.

[Algol]

I got better though and came the day that I knew more than the new Captains that I flew with.
It's a F/O's job to know more than the Captain.;)

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Algol

Spot on (thank goodness:sad:)

Tpobunk

If you are ever in doubt as to a future location for your TDODAR, drop me a line.:uhoh: