Poor state of UK GA. 'Todays Pilot' Letter.

[BRL]

Check this out from Todays Pilot issue 18. . .Dear Sir, I have recently returned to the UK having been living in the US for the last few years and am absolutely flabbergasted at the state of GA in this country. During the last few weeks I have visited several airfields with a view to converting my FAA CPL to a UK PPL. To say that i have been totally amazed by the amount of apathy shown by all schools I have visited, is a considerable understatement. Don't they want my money? After all, all i am trying to do is give them a considerable amount of cash. I have also been less than impressed with the condition of some of the aeroplanes i have looked, and also staggered by the rental costs. Finally, I have found the level of pretentiousness displayed at some of the flying schools, frankly absurd. At one school i visited, it appeared (judging by the plethora of gold stripes on display) that everyone was a Captain, even the rather spotty youth who answered the phone. What is this nonsense?. .No amount of gold braid will make someone something they arn't, so why pretend otherwise?. .I think that GA in this country needs to take a long, hard look at itself if it is to prosper.. .. .There you go, your comments on this please.?. .. .(Many thanks to Dave Unwin at Todays Pilot for letting me use this letter.)

[Matthewjharvey]

I'm surprised this poor chap expected anything else, but to be honest I found after returning from 3 years in the states that the school I chose for my CPL conversion was very helpful and willing to take my money. Maybe I got lucky.

[Polar_stereographic]

Whereas I can agree with the comments made by this gentleman, my feeling is that it is not uniformly the case.. .. .I've just done an IR and have nothing but praise for the school at which I did it. I have also been into various other clubs where the attitude is anything but as described.. .. .Not sure where the gentleman concerned lives, but I suspect it my have been around London. Sadly, from what I have seen, it's easy to form such an opinion from certain schools that operate around the London area (Gold stripes a bit of a give away). I would suggest that he takes an hour or so's drive in any direction away from London, picks a school, and I would be surprised if this experience is repeated. No guarantees mind you.. .. .What I find a real shame is that GA in this country has bigger problems than a few naff flying schools. I'd like to see the magazines highlight more of this and some of the other bodies make more of a stand to get GA in this country back on it's feet at all levels.. .. .My 2d's worth.. .. .PS. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 06:57: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</small>

[Genghis the Engineer]

As the employee of two of the bodies "who should be helping to get GA back on it's feet", I'm at best bemused the implication that nobody is trying.. .. .On the other hand, there seems to be a perception here that GA=light aircraft flying training industry, which aint so. Light aircraft training is a small but important part of the industry. But there are also manufacturers (both of whole aircraft and kit), glider, microlight, hang-glider and parachuting schools. Air taxi-operators, executive jet fractionals, etc. From where I'm sitting, MOST of these are doing reasonably well, hampered only by about the same amount of unnecessary red tape as any other small business.. .. .There are a few bizarre points. I do wonder about self improvers in blue jumpers and unnecessary gold bars, I do wonder why so few flying clubs have decent inside loos. I actually don't wonder about poor customer service; most small businesses (which includes flying schools) by people who are enthusiastic about what they do and think that everybody else is equally enthusiastic and understanding of its foibles. This particular deficiency is common across the UK, just try hiring a builder, removal van, etc. Doesn't make it excusable, but I don't think that it's peculiar to aviation.. .. .G

[Polar_stereographic]

Genghis the Engineer,. .. .You have a point. I am not suggesting that no one is trying, but what I think is clear is that they have not had any effect, but that I suspect is a debate outside the remit of the original question.. .. .GA, flight training differs from other trades like for example plumbers in that it's a leasure/recreational activity. You are right, there is a lot of enthusiasm in the clubs out there, and that was a bit of the jist of my reply. That enthusiasm can be tapped at the smaller outfits rather than those geared up to put fake pretentious gold bars on peoples shoulders. For that, don't read GA (as I would like to see it), read hours builders, and that's what you'll get. . .. .The reason GA = light aircraft training I suspect has more to do with this being one of the larger parts of GA as well as the one that most of Joe public sees first. I agree with your point none the less.. .. .PS. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 08:02: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</small>

[djk]

I might have my facts muddled up a bit, but aren't airfields in the US funded by the FAA, whereas airfields in the UK privately owned?. .. .Probably the reason why UK flying costs more than the US as well as the high price in aviation fuel.

[Who has control?]

Interesting that there was an one-pager in 'Pilot' a month or so back by an American saying exactly thesame thing about his countries GA (light aircraft) industry.. .. .I really find the tone of the letter a little puzzling - does he expect to find flying clubs beating a path to his door? OK, so customer service is often sadly lacking, but never in any of the flying clubs I've visited, either by air or by car. As for the conditions of the aircraft, most are 20 years old and get a heavy useage. They stand outside all year in all weathers, often on grass. Is it any suprise that most Club aircraft, especially after the rain we have just enjoyed, are distinctly grubby? (Please don't look at my car either).. .. .At my Club, all the instructors wear blue wooly-pullys. It means that you know who is who and gives a professional appearance to any visitor having a traii lesson.

[merronys]

I'm nearing completion of my PPL (hopefully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> ) - so I've been at the receiving end of the system for the last few months.. .. .Frankly, I'm still amazed that many airfields/clubs stay in business. It seems there is little distinction between 'airfield', 'flying club', and 'flying school' and most operators simply try to lump all three together resulting in a total lack of any perceivable business model; and plenty of confusion for the poor customer.. .. .There really is no excuse for p*ss-poor customer service in the 21st century - especially in 'GB Plc' where about 70% of us work in the service sector. Why do I constantly feel that the clubs are doing ME a favour by taking MY money?. .. .Unclear charging schemes, archaic booking systems, old-boy-networks, useless out-of-date web sites, unstructured instruction - just some of the problems found at many airfields I've visited.... .. .At least if the staff wear jumpers or stripes you can tell who they are - often their behaviour is no clue whatsoever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .Sorry for the rant - but sometimes it seems to me the whole (private flying/training) business relies on stretching our enthusiasm to the limits.

[Ludwig]

Granted that GA flying training is only a part of the GA industry, but as the earlier post said, it is often the most visible part, and I suspect the part which has the greater through put of individual customers. In common with just about everyone else on this forum I have been a customer of a couple of flying schools over the years, and also run a business myself, although nothing to do with aviation. What seems to me to be a recurring issue throughout is funding.. .. .School do not charge anything like enough to make the kind of profits they need to reinvest in newer smarter kit, they pay their instructors next to nothing, even the non hours builders who are full time long serving staff earn next to nothing, and the schools almost never own the property from which they operate. This all leads to them being at the mercy of airfield owners, who in many cases it seems put up with rather than support aviation tenants, why invest in quality buildings etc if you only have a short lease, shabby old aircraft (would you expect to hire a car from Avis or what ever than was as knackered as some of the GA fleet, with dials missing , etc etc?)and a large contingent of bored youth instructors who frankley cannot wait to get out of flying schools into a "proper" job.. .. .This problem it seems to me is largley the fault of the clientle who's aspirations very often exceed their ability or willingness to pay for it. The whole industry is competing on the who can do it the cheapest basis which is a receipt for under capitislation, and corner cutting (I don't question saftey) You only have to look on this website and in the mags to see schools under cutting each other for hours building. Perhaps the best thing for the industry would be for the bulk of school to go to the wall, leaving a smaller number of profitable organisations who could run better operation, pay proper salaries to professional instructors, in newer smarter aircraft.. .. .In short we need to pay more for the services we want from flying school if they are to meet the standards we expect from other public facing businesses.. .. .Discuss

[poetpilot]

S'not just GA - its the whole UK culture. Totally fed up with it, me. Wish I could emigrate but Mrs Poet & MiniPoet dont want to.

[Polar_stereographic]

Ludwig . .. .Excelent, well balanced post. Highlights precisely what happens whan a very desirable pasttime (ie lots want to do it at all levels) compete on a financial level.. .. .Top post. .. .PS. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 11:05: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</small>

[sennadog]

And there was me thinking that I was the only one who thought this way!. .. .I can't comment on the other parts of GA, other than my own experience with Flight Schools in Southern England - which, not to put too fine a point on it - suck! The only reason that I use the school that I'm with is that the instructor is bloody good and that the airfield is very convenient to where I am located. The level of customer service is not very high with outside toilets, below par amenities and a general attitude from everyone on the field that they are doing me a favour. This attitude permeates all the way through from the Airfield operator, the Flying Schools to the woman who runs the Cafe at the top end of the airfield.. .. .Coming from a Marketing background it's very tempting to get hold of one of these schools and turn it into a professional operation and I'm not talking about the gold braid dripping of every surface type of operation. FFS, it's no excuse saying that AC are bound to be dirty with the weather that we've been having - clean them for heaven's sake! It's no good everyone blaming the CAA and general overregulation as a reason for driving up costs - I would have thought that anyone with a bit of commercial sense would have realised that they could support a flying operation with other indirect activities that would help to support the bottome line.. .. .It's about time that people started to drag themselves into the 21st century and stop running these businesses along the lines of a Youth Club and attempted to "professionalise" things...... .. .END OF RANT!

[Who has control?]

"You get what you pay for" & "Theres no such thing as a free lunch". .. .The skill in marketing is not selling your product cheaper than someone else, but a higher price. Anyone can undercut the opposition, so if flying school X is a lot cheaper than flying school A ask yourself 'Why?'

[Evo7]

I think Ludwig is probably right. Goodwood - where I fly from - is expensive, but the service you get in return is extremely good. You get what you pay for <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[sennadog]

Who Has Control..... .. .Yes, you are right on the money with that statement but in order to make better margins than the competition, your offering has to be superior. You've got to make people want to pay a higher price and for that you've got to give a higher level of service/better product or to use that hackneyed expression.....added value. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Boss Raptor]

I have recently moved to Spain and find the whole GA enviroment a breath of fresh air in comparison to UK.... .. .As an ex AFI from 12 years ago I can empathise with the comments regarding the attitude of some schools and their resident instructors...flying is a hobby to their customers so should be treated as fun just like any other 'sport' - without detracting from safety of course.... .. .I personally believe UK GA as a whole has to re-invent itself or face causing its' own extinction!

[Whirlybird]

And things will be incredibly improved if flying schools ever stop being boys clubs, who grudgingly accept women but would really rather they'd quietly go away. No, I'm not exaggerating, and I know women pilots who'd put it more strongly than that. We don't usually, because it makes us unpopular, it's not done, and it usually gets us flamed or told we're over-sensitive. But it's still the case.. .. .But I'm off to the US in two weeks, and they tell me it's different over there. So I don't care!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

[Genghis the Engineer]

I disagree with the chap who said that Marketing is putting a higher price on the product - marketing is about matching what a producer can give to what a consumer wants, at a price that is acceptable to both.. .. .Here's a good example - Old Sarum. Good loos, good aircraft (a lady club manager Whirly), and a core of good professional instructors. The prices are high compared to other places, but I've never heard in my many visits there a complain about lack of service or value. The good people of Wiltshire seem very happy with it (and rarely an unnecessary gold bar in sight!).. .. .I can think of a bad example that I won't name. Erratic instructors, based in a rarely cleaned portacabin, aircraft serviced at a minimum. A little cheaper than somewhere like OS, but frankly it had a captive market because there was nobody else close. This isn't good marketing, it's poor practice taking advantage of a captive market and deserves to get shot down.. .. .Here's a question for those involved in flying schools (which I'm not). On a bad weather day, why can't all those AFIs and FIs sat around drinking coffee do one of the following:-. .. .- Clean the place. .- Clean the aircraft. .- Do (under supervision) minor cosmetic servicing tasks like fixing tatty trim or touching up dents.. .. .Just a thought....... .. .G

[pistongone]

Well i know where you get a good service and a pretty keen price, Lydd!!. .Nice PA 28@£80/hr TACHO!!. .Reasonable C172@£78/hr. .Three c150's @£57/hr. .landing fee's are £3.50 for the four seater and £2.50 for the two's!!. .So you only pay one landing fee if you do more than one hour!!. .And the restaurant is good the atmosphere is nice and a freelance instructor is available at a good rate.. .The catch? It is a bit out of the way,but it only takes me 1hr 20 mins to get there from Dulwich.Also if you are going to france or south then it saves you a few pounds more in air time!. .and no i dont work there.

[Ludwig]

Clearly there is an issue about the user perception of a lot of UK flying schools. Not all are in the same catagory however. The better ones seem to be owned by individuals who have an interest in aviation and have run other sucessful businesses outside the aviation world and have not therefore spend a career expecting and accepting the situation we have, in many places and who understand customer services, and the need to make a profit. . .. .In order to encourage an overall quality rise, might I suggest perhaps a system of flying school regulation. Rather than the current situation where you just fill in a few forms and send it off to the CAA and hey presto you are a registered facility; one only has to lok at the list of schools on the CAA website to see that a good number are one man and his dog operating out of nowheresville. If, for example, before an outfit could train pilots the had to have a certain level of capital resoures, and maintain a prescribed level of solvency, this would keep out the bloke with a few old aircraft, which he probably doesn't own, but just rents off owners who themselves cannot really afford to own aircraft. Everyone must have encountered the "Me Too" boys who set up near a flying school renting a/c at stupidly low rates based on he some income is better than none approach to business to catch the I want it cheaper people. The hole in the hedge businesses have no place in aviation. If prices are driven down by the shoestring operations at the expense of properly resoursed outfits charging proper rates, the whole industry will go to hell in a handcart as quality operators throw in the towel and invest their money elsewhere, leaving the shaby end of the market to continue selling time in a/c of dubious parentage.. .. .Just a thought, but if the cheapo operators are selling time as cheaply as they advertize, some at rates which cannot possibly be expected to be profitable, how do they do it? What it it they are skimpping on, other than glossy buildings etc; how many duck and dive on the maintaince, perhaps they keep their overheads down by not joining the inland revenue's club. Whatever it is, get them out of the market, allow only the well resoursed operators, have them quality checked, (sort of aviation star ratings) and the industry will be half way here.

[Who has control?]

Genghis, I didn't explain myself very well. I never meant to imply that marketing is just about increasing the price. You, Sennadog & I are in a agreement, but you two have managed to express it better. . .. .The product on sale is Flying Training. You can sell it at £X per hour or £X+10 per hour. The skill is in attracting customers to you at £X+10. And to do that, you have to be that bit better in your presentation than your rivals. Now you can also sell training at £X-10, but what do you cut back on to remain competative? There will always be customers for the cheap product, but I personally would be prepared to pay extra for a better product, until the price just starts to get silly.

[Monocock]

Picture the scene......... .. .UK airfield struggling for survival due to...high labour costs, high fuel costs, high maintenance costs, high insurance costs, high groundsmen costs, high electricity costs, high a/c purchase costs, high extra costs due to minimum hours working, high advertising costs etc etc etc.. .. .And what do you lot do????????. .. .Go to America cos its cheaper. . .. .Shame on you, you train over the water and then come back home expecting the best facilities when you've invested YOUR money in the USA. I bet the Yanks are laughing. . .. .How dare you pass comment on the state of UK GA when you have invested nothing into it when you trained for your stocking filler FAA licences.. .. .PPRuNe moderators might cut me off for my comments but I will never understand those who go elsewhere to promote other countries systems and then come home and slag off our own.. .. .Please, can someone not back me up with my positive feelings towards GA in the UK.. .. .If we don't look after it we will lose it.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Monocock - not at all, I support your comments 100%.. .. .WWW

[LowNSlow]

I'm with you monocock but there have been very valid points made.. .. .It can be done ie clean well maintained aircraft, good organisation, tidy office and proffessional staff. I've seen it done in a PPL environment where there was no extra revenue generated by IR's etc. Made a tidy profit too.

[theRolfe2]

Go to America cos its cheaper. . .. .Shame on you, you train over the water and then come back home expecting the best facilities when you've invested YOUR money in the USA. I bet the Yanks are laughing.. .. .How dare you pass comment on the state of UK GA when you have invested nothing into it when you trained for your stocking filler FAA licences. . . . .....and if everybody had your attitude not only would there still be a British Car industry ther'd still be a British Wine industry! The reality is that the UK is at a competetive disadvantage in PPl training compared to several other places. The weather makes it impossible for an average person with a 9-5 job to complete a PPL in a reasonable period of time. I sympathise with anyone trying to make a living as an flight instructor in the UK but ultimatly you are there to serve the public and the public has figured out that they can meet their needs with less hassle by going to the US for a month rather than spending 18 months hanging out at wet airfields. . .. .No matter how much you knock the yanks they still have a product which is better than yours from the perspective of many of your potential customers. By knocking your competors product when your own customers have friends that are happy purchasers of the american alternative all you will succeed in doing is harming your own credability in the eyes of your customers. . .. .So rather than trashing all things west of holyhead why don't you focus your energies on profitable co-existance with your american collegues? Why not team up with them and offer courses which include 10 hours differences training in the UK, paid for at the same time the PPL is paid for? . .. .Please, can someone not back me up with my positive feelings towards GA in the UK.. .. .You didn't express any positive feelings! I don't like your characterization of my FAA licence as a 'stocking filler'. If I made the same comment about UK licences I would be the subject of a storm of criticism. . .. .theRolfe

[FlyingForFun]

I have to admit, I'm with theRolfe on this one, at least partly.. .. .UK schools have a place. Their primary place is serving students who can't, or don't want to, study abroad, as well as part-time students who are in no rush to get their license, and in renting to post-PPL customers who want to fly in the UK and prefer to rent.. .. .Unfortunately, UK schools are not the best way of training if you want to get a license as quickly and/or cheaply as possible. The two main reasons for this are a) the price of fuel, and b) the weather, both of which are out of the hands of the schools.. .. .Having said that, there is no reason why UK schools shouldn't strive to provide the highest quality service that they can, in the areas in which they are important. Their aircraft should be well-kept, instructors should be enthusiastic, all staff should be customer-oriented, and so on.. .. .I only have experience of one school in the UK, and this school does meet all of those requirements (except for keeping the aircraft clean, but it's bl00dy hard work keeping an aircraft clean if it spends half it's like in the circuit on the muddy runways at White Waltham!). .. .Overall, I preferred flying in the US to the UK. But this is not the fault of the schools. Apart from cheaper flying and better weather, there were a number of other advantages, mostly due to legislation, and out of control of the schools: the absence of landing fees, the fact that just about every airport is open at night, the ability to land a fabric-covered open-cockpit bi-plane at international airports without anyone giving you second glance.... .. .But, being based in the UK, and being a renter (although hopefully not for much longer), I am a customer of a UK flying school, and I'm grateful that I have a school nearby which does provide a good service.. .. .FFF. .---------

[Clear_Prop]

I'm with the general Ludwigean Theorem on this one. I think the guts of the problem is that we Bits have, very sadly - and through no fault of our own - become more than a little narrow minded in the way we do business; and are perhaps a bunch of cheapskates when it comes to paying for things. And that obviously extends well beyond GA.. .. .It frightens me to think that people can be so dumb as to throw caution to the wind in search of a cheap deal when considering an activity that, although generally regarded to be very safe, requires very high standards at all levels to actually be "safe". . .. .And there's your catch-22. I agree with Who Has Control? that "you get what you pay for" and I don't think many schools are looking beyond their noses to interpret that in a way that works. Although I can see their predicament - unless you have a target audience that actually respects a quality service, how can you possibly market one? I'm sure a fair few have tried to tackle this question only to fall on their @$$