Is it time to ditch JAA?

[Julian]

Well they are at it again!

I read in the latest 'Flyer' that those nuts in Brussels are intending to reform the JAA regs again! Who knows what regs they will come up with next and what they will come up with as the requirements you have already spent a fortune to get. There are rumours that they are going to rehash the medical requiremets also!!!

I am now looking at taking my IR & ME rating. With all the changes that are going on I think I have more or less decided to forget JAA and go FAA.

Why?

Well JAA is a Eurpean licence, if you undertake the IMC rating you can only use it the UK(!), why pay all that money for something thats only of use in your own back yard? The FAA IR is roughly the same cost as the IMC but you end up with a full IR in the US and - as a bonus - you get given a IMC in the UK anyway. PLus you have done a hell of a lot more hours and do a much more stringent flight test - so you are going to be a safer pilot anyway.

On top of that the FAA licence is recognised n about 75% or the world, something the JAA is not.

Who knows how long before they make keeping your licence an impossibility unless you are a pilot by trade or have loads of dosh to go flying very regulary? Keeping the FAA licence is much simpler and cheaper!!



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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!

[JB007]

Julian,

Any idea of exactly what Brussels wants to change ?

I suppose it all depends on what you want to do and present job prospects...
Personally, if I could get an FAA licence and have a very good chance of getting my first job on a jet A/c with a good salary abroad i'd be off to the US like a shot...but to be realistic, you can't!

The Uk on the other hand has this oppotunity.
As an Australian pilot said to me on my ATPL ground-school "the Uk is the only place I know where you can have a career change at 35 and still get a job on a jet!"

So I suppose we have to look big and pay those delightful JAA prices...I hate to sound money orientated and i'm not but the money is kind of important when you find the job you want because of the size of investment you've put into gaining the qualification.

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Regards JB007!
[email protected]
Flight Ops,Crewing and Dispatch Moderator

[Kermit 180]

Hi there. Rule changes are indeed strange and somewhat disruptive. In NZ we went through a change a few years back from Regulations prescribed in 1953, to new Civil Aviation Rules (CAR) to bring us into line with the FAA system. It seems silly to me, that in times of free international trade and expatriation, to have such differing systems. About time the European Authorities forgot about trying to preserve their power, and think about their pilots. My sincerest feelings for all of you.

Kermie

[BlueLine]

"I read in the latest 'Flyer' that those nuts in Brussels are intending to reform the JAA regs again!"

As those "nuts in Brussels" have nothing whatsoever to do with the JAA which is based in Holland not Belgium, one wonders how they can be doing anything "again". The JAA has not so far been rocognised by the EU and many JAA States are not even in the EU. Whilst the EU might have different ideas to the JAA, they have so far had no influence on the content.

[Julian]

I have in fact just been out and bought a copy of 'Flyer' to give you the info (arent I nice? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif) )

The article (Flyer Page 6), "JAR PPL under Euro threat - New Euro-agency may not cover PPL"

It seems a gent called Claude Probst is working on creation on EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency), to be up and running by Jan '03.

EASA will take over ALL certification and maintenance matters for EU member states with national bodies acting as representitives for the member states. These will eventually become EASA employees paid from Brussels rather than local authorities at Gatwick, Paris, etc.

It goes on to say that individual states will be able to re-charge for their work at a level decided at a national level. It is believed that JAA will have little or no influence on airworthiness matters.

Flight crew licencing will undertake major changes. It is believed that EASA will not be interested in taking over PPL but for now they are undertaking a major re-wrting of FCL1 which is the part of the JARs dealing with flight crew licensing. The PPL parts being removed, National authorities will police these.

So as I said Blueline - "Those nuts in Brussels are at it again" :)

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[Julian]

JB,

There is hope!

I was talking to one of the instructors out there in Jan this year. One of his students had just got his ATPL with 1000 Hrs (FAA) and got a job with an airline (I forget which one), which had a retirement age of 60 - this guy was 55 !!! So dont give up.

The airlines appear to be recruiting quite strongly at the moments, with job prospects in the airline & cargo areas. Executive stuff is hard to get into over there.

One thing I heard was interesting is that one of the airlines out of Vegas ( I can finf out if anyone is interested! ), is offering 250Hrs in the right hand seat of a twin turbo-prop for about $5000. The plane is essentially one man operation but this gives you the hours on your CV.

Hope this cheers you up a bit! :)

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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!

[2Wright]

There is a general misnomer concerning the ‘European’ nature of the JAA. It is a lose ( and fractious ) amalgamation of national authorities operating under an ‘emperors new clothes’ mandate from Brussels.
The European Union is, at this very moment, preparing to correct the dubious legitimacy of the JAA by establishing it’s own pan-European aviation authority. A plan that would require ( I believe ) a referendum in every member state...I know which way I’d be voting!
The prospect of a three tier Euro authority, JAA, EAA and Eurocontrol just doesn’t bear contemplation.
If there is doubt in anybody’s mind about the disaster that JAA-FCL is, they should consider the position of aviation in Ireland.
I have a JAA PPL issued by the Irish Aviation Authority. This piece of paper looks, feels, and smells like a JAA licence...but it’s not!. The Irish authority is not sanctioned or authorised in any way to issue licences on behalf of the JAA.

If the letter of the law was adhered to, my next flight as PIC to the U.K. or mainland Europe could result in the grounding of my aircraft and/or a nasty prosecution for flying without a valid licence.

2W

[Noggin]

Rest assured your licence is pefectly valid and issued in accordance with ICAO so it is valid Worldwide.

[2Wright]

Thanks for the assurance Noggin. However, I can’t see how the IAA can issue a JAA licence
while it is ‘saving itself’ for it’s impending marriage to that system.
The Irish authority is either a fully paid up member of the Euro club or it is nothing at all.
Perhaps there is some sort of temporary agreement or patch job done between the IAA and ICAO
...but I haven’t heard of any such arrangement.

Thanks again for the assurance. Unfortunately I can’t allow myself to be lulled into any false state of security when it comes to the IAA. The Irish authority has botched the whole JAA integration issue so badly that
I doubt if even they know what ground they are (or should be) standing on.

2W

[BEagle]

If you thought the JAA was bad, the French run EASA will be far less democratic. Reichskanzler Probst has decided that he - and he alone - will decide everything. Professional bodies might say what they like, but he will only change things if he, not any committee, so decides.
This De Gaulle-like attitude needs a major kick up the @r$e if things are not to become intolerable. And yes, Probst has issued a Fuehrer-Diktat stating that 'EASA will have no interest in private flying'. He also views the Belgrano as a 'regional office of EASA' - as the UK's national aviation authority it will cease to have any independent power.

Ein Volk, Ein Europa, Ein Probst......

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 13 June 2001).]

[Julian]

Beagle - Exactly the sort of thing I was fraid of!! Especially as I work with a load of French and I know exactly what they can be like if they dont get their own way - even if something is plainly wrong! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif)

I am worried not that my licence will be valid, as one one assume they wont go round taking everyones off them once the new system comes in, but that keeping it valid will becoming so difficult/expensive that I end up taking up knitting as a pastime instead.

A friend and myself are looking into continuing along the FAA route as they seem to have a relatively proven structure and dont muck about with it too much. Hence my question, is it time to switch camps?

It may lead to a growth in the number of N regs around the UK as pilots get more cheesed off and instead fly a US registered plane under the FAA licence to exercise their privledges - which is what we are thinking of doing.

The ratings are cheaper and more importantly they are easier to keep - not (before a flame starts!), that they are so easy to keep its dangerous but they seem to have a more practicle approach to flying.

Anyone any thoughts....?

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[englishal]

Julian,

Agree with what you're saying, in fact had I known what a farce JAR would have been, I would have gone ahead and just done the FAA PPL, seeing as I seem to spend most of my time flying over there due to the huge costs involved here.

As a brit (with an American girlfriend :-) ), I tend to frown on a lot of the things the Americans get up to (gun laws and the like)....but when it comes down to flying and GA, then they have got it down. The number of times I've had to search for JAR regs, or even posted questions on forums which even examiners find hard to answer is amazing. The FAA system is clear, concise, and most importantly laid down in stone, unlike JAR which seems to be laid down in some sort of runny mud!

I believe that even the CAA are (unofficially) not 100% behind JAA, the release of this NPL proves this. This licence will be solely administered by the CAA, and no JAR involvement, and as you can see from the NPL 'spec', medical requirements are less stringent, TT is less stringent etc...of course the licence is less useful, as it is only valid in the UK....or is it....the UK is a member of the ICAO and therefore rights of transfer exist between other member states...?

[Noggin]

Everyone is quick to call the JAA a farce but is it?
The intention of the JAA is to introduce common standards in aviation accross Europe not a particularly bad idea.
JAR-FCL is designed to allow airlines to operate aircraft of any registration using crews from any country without any need for formality or beaurocracy again not a bad idea.

JAR-FCL was never intended to cover the PPL, that was AOPAs pet project. Look at the JAR-FCL PPL syllabus, its the old AOPA syllabus, so what has really changed 45 hours v 40 hours. When AOPA lost the plot they criticised the CAA for implimenting JAR-FCL, after all they had originally wanted to be in charge. The CAA told them to to go away and think of something constructive thinking that was the end of it, they came back with the NPPL.

If you think JAA is a farce, just wait until you get a mixture of JAA PPLs v NPPLs v other ICAO PPLs. The farce hasn't begun yet.

If you get rid of JAA at the PPL level, what exactly is going to change? 45 hours to 40 hours, NFT/GFT back, same AOPA syllabus, call it NPPL. At least if it is 40 hours it will meet ICAO requirements and be valid Worldwide.

[DB6]

JAA for commercial aviation may or may not be a good idea. JAA for private licences is the biggest load of irritating worthless ***** I have ever known, and the bastards responsible should be held accountable.
PS you need a new smiley thing for 'steaming mad'
PPS BASTARDS BASTARDS BASTARDS

[This message has been edited by DB6 (edited 14 June 2001).]

[englishal]

Noggin,

What you say is true, the IDEA of the JAA is not a bad one, though I thought there was already an organisation in place called the ICAO. Surely it'd be better to have a worldwide system which recognises all licences issued by ICAO member states, rather than implement a whole new system. After all, non-JAR FAA pilots operate flights into and out of the UK daily, and I don't think that because they were not trained under JAR that their standards are lower!

What would be better is for each ICAO member state to issue licences independantly, then for each other state to recognise the others licence. What really is a farce, is stupid petty little rules, for example an ICAO (eg FAA) IR holder has to complete the entire JAA IR course (and associated expense) regardless of whether they are a 1000 hr instrument time holder ! What a crock of s**t ! Why not have a simple check-out with an examiner to judge the pilot, rather than forcing them to cough up 10 grand for no reason !

Incidentally, I think the reduced minimums needed for the NPPL is not such a good idea. 30 Hrs ??? Hmmm...how many people are safe to ferry their friends and family around the skies after 30 hrs ? Also, just because a person holds an NPPL, it seems there is less chance of them keeling over at the wheel with a heart attack, seeing as you just need a medical cert. issued by your own doctor, no ECG etc....either that or the JAA system has been made far too stringent (second option I suspect!).

Its a good idea, gone bad !

[Julian]

I think Englishal has just about summed it up for me, its a good system gone bad!

If you think about it the US could be thought of as a 'Europe' with all their little states - yet they all fly under one licence. We have all our little 'states' yet we can even sort our own house out - yet we still reserve the right to pass judgement on other countries licences.

From what I understand ( and someone correct me if I wrong - which I am sure they will on this board :) ), there used to be a reciprical agreement between the US & UK as regards licences until they got fed up with everyone going to the US for training - now the only licence you can convert is to get a PPL valid in both countries. We are now stuck with all this in fighting and messing about!

If you think about it another way - why are you not allowed to fly over here under full FAA privledges unless you are flying an N reg - does changing the letter on your tail improve your flying skills? I think not! And likewise obviously!!

And finally, the NPPL is a joke, again as englishal said - how long before the first NPPL pilot has a heart attack and plummets into a street of houses because he never undertook a medical - that will give GA all the publicity it needs right now!!

What next NAPTL?

Julian.

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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!

[kanga]

i knew all this bull**** would begin July 1 1999. It'll take years for this chaos to settle down. the issue date of my ppl is exactly 7 days before the new regulations came into force! i pity anyone that tries to get a PPL now.

[Genghis the Engineer]

(1) After many years I'm still waiting for the first glider, balloon or microlight pilot (all of whom use essentially the same medical as the NPPL) to have a heart attack and kill people. It has however happened in light aircraft to holders of CAA medicals.

(2) UK, USA and most other countries more or less automatically accept any PPL from any other ICAO country. The JAR-FCL license makes no difference to this at-all.

Largely I agree that, at least in the UK, the incorporation of JAR-FCL has been a fiasco, but get your arguments right.

G

[Julian]

Genghis,

(i) The point is why one rule for one and one for the other - is the fact you are only completing an NPPL reason to exempt you from the same medical requirements? They are after all now piloting light aircraft and by your own argument are now prime cases to keel over at the wheel !!! The point is that the NPPL medical requirements make a farce of the entire system

(ii) As for the UK/US PPL, I stated in my last post that this licence could be cross-accepeted in either country but not others - the Instrument Rating being a prime example. If the US are such bad flyers that their licences aren't worth accepting in the EU then why do we got on their planes when we go on holiday?

So I think we got our facts right for the point we are trying to make, maybe you should re-read the thread.

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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I accept your point about cross-recognition of licenses. The UK/JAA .v. US IR debate is one that will probably never go away.

However I disagree on medicals. In my opinion the JAR-2 medical is flawed, not because it is too strict, but because it ignores your own medical records. The FCL150 system (used for balloons and microlights) requires a self declaration and a counter signature from your GP. So, not only is it cheaper, it is signed by somebody who has actually read your medical records.

I accept the need for something like the class 1 for a commercial pilot, but if it were up to me, I'd institute the FCL150 for all private pilots, NPPL or not.

Personally I think the JAA has done a lot of good things, JAR-25, 23 and VLA have revolutionised the cost of aircraft certification. The way JAR-22 was raised, but then left to individual countries to decide how to handle was a masterpiece of compromise. But, I think pretty much everybody (certainly everybody I speak to at CAA) has come to the conclusion that it is best kept well away from the operational side of GA. JAR-OPS seems to be heading that way so far as training and private flying is concerned, and quite right too.

JAA headquarters is in Hoofdorp, Netherlands.

G

[englishal]

I agree on the medical point...if a self certified, GP counter-signed medical is alright for the NPPL then it should also be ok for GA JAA. I had the JAR medical, got hooked up to an ECG, gave a blood sample, peak flow etc etc...Also had the FAA class 3 medical....hop on one leg 20 times, yep your heart is ok ! Again it seems the FAA have got it right and don't blow everything out of proportion. Having a 3 level medical is a good idea, after all, transporting boxes of cornflakes as a CPL is going to do no more damage if I keel over with a heart attack than if I am flying for fun and keel over.

Incidentally it is funny that if you instruct with a JAA PPL FI rating you only need a class 2 medical, but to instruct with a CPL FI you need a class 1 ! Hmmm...another one to add to the farce list !

[Julian]

Genghis,

I agree with your medical comments, why cant they have one medical for all instead of all this messing about - as I said it makes a mockery of the whole thing as at the end of the day a pilot is a pilot and if hes able to lfy around in the UK or nip over to France he should be as safe as the next guy. Instead we end up with loads of conflicting info.

If we meer mortals are bringing up questions like this it doesn't given you much condfidence in what the guys over the water will come with next.

My other point of looking at switching to the FAA was the one of cost/currency rules which obviously have a lot more weighting in my case. I do not have loads of money to throw away and I am not going to sell/remortage my house to get money together to do it. I spent 1 hour dual in a Warrior yesteday for my club checkout at a cost of £145, not cheap! It is cheaper, more practical and cuurency arrangements don't carry as much red tape.

If you get the level of FFA CPL there are importers here who will pay you to bring planes over for customers - be a holiday with a difference!

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Live fast..die young...leave a good looking corpse!