Falsified CV's [Archive]

mrchavez

6th Sep 2010, 10:27

I'm assuming some of the forgeries found relate to logged hours...

I've never understood why hours play such a large part in employment prospects for commercial pilots. Everyone should be trained to the same level regardless of time. For example an MECIR rating should hold the same weight industry wide.

PIC time is not a good indicator of skill. Military pilots are a good example of this. A Career fast jet pilot may only log 3-5000 hours but given the choice I would always pick him over a commercial pilot with +20,000.

Some pilots can go a whole career and not be subjected to a serious aircraft system failure.
A low timer could be faced with a flameout on his very first journey in a heavy......

emeritus

6th Sep 2010, 11:51

So Mr C....

When your fast jet pilot with 3-5ooohrs eventually becomes an older commercial pilot with 20000 hrs you will have lost confidence in him ??

Emeritus

jetopa

6th Sep 2010, 12:29

German news magazine 'Der Spiegel' is reporting about this in their online service:

Flugsicherheit: Chinesische Piloten fälschten Flugstunden-Nachweise - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/0,1518,715905,00.html)

It says that a closer examination of their pilot's CVs has revealed that over 100 pilots of Shenzhen Airlines have forged their flying records and that pilots of other airlines are affected, too.

If you cooperate with Chinese companies, you risk that your products are being copied. If you work for them, you might not get paid. Why am I not surprised?

sunbird123

6th Sep 2010, 12:38

If every employer did proper checks a lot more of this will be exposed. All it takes is a phone call or two.

Algol

6th Sep 2010, 13:44

I'd love them to define 'falsified' in this case.
Does it mean a few logbook errors here and there - or hundreds of fictitious hours slapped on?

AlexanderH

6th Sep 2010, 15:01

I currently live in China and needless to say this story is not being covered on the Chinese news service.

Huck

6th Sep 2010, 19:13

There is no time in normal civvy flying that requires you to be in any way special. The computer does it better. The only time humans are better than computers is for the completely unexpected. That is why you are there.

I just flew 7:20 across the Pacific, RJBB-PANC, two-man crew in a B777F, ETOPS, class II airspace, plotting, deviated for wx, optimizing altitude for fuel burn, set up and flew an ILS to rainy weather on a wet runway, landing weight about 540k.

Sorry, but I felt a little special after accomplishing all that safely.....

Type1106

6th Sep 2010, 19:43

This thread, like some others, is descending into a willy waving contest between civil and military pilots and is totally childish. Let's all grow up and go back to the serious matter of pilots appearing to get jobs by, one way or another, falsifying their experience.

If bad eggs are being employed because of this alleged falsification three things come to mind:

One; potential employers are not carefully checking the personal documentation and references of the applicant,or...

Two; they don't care - and that can't be true can it? As there seem to be a glut of qualified plots right now why would they act this way?

Three: the bad eggs are good at forgery - but references should throw that out - see point one.

1106

Dunbar

6th Sep 2010, 19:49

Gentlemen,

This thread is pointless. Wise pilots know that to generalise about previous experience is a waste of time. As a TRE I have failed ex-fast jet pilots now flying airliners and I have seen excellent performances by other ex-fast jet pilots. I have failed ex-Loganair pilots and I have seen excellent performances by other ex Loganair pilots...and so on.

The only people to make generalisations are the wannabees and never weres whose idea of operating a multi crew aircraft is playing at flight sim whatever with their nephew.

They are clueless, nothing more to say.

virgo

6th Sep 2010, 20:39

My last airline had a pretty good recruitment system in which someone with some knowledge or experience in parallel with the applicant was "co-opted" onto the selection process (interview, simulator or "lunch-time tea and sandwiches").

I was able to spot a couple of imposters..........one because he kept referring to his time on "one-two-oh squadron...........(always known as one-twenty) and the other because the aircraft on which he claimed 1000 hours hadn't been introduced in that period. Closer examination of their CVs showed an imaginative but fictional background.

Nowadays the recruitment process tends to be conducted by an army of HR people with personality, compatibility and PC tests without the "gut-feeling" that warns a professional airman that something is amiss with this particular chap ?

protectthehornet

6th Sep 2010, 20:47

I have to laugh...we would call this "parker time" or "p51 time" here in the United States.

I've heard another sort of test question...what's the dead dog switch?

)(( I personally don't like this question...or its related: what's the pupcicle switch).

Someone asked me this and I started laughing at them. I showed him my certificate (we even say: ticket here or license) and walked away.

Neptunus Rex

6th Sep 2010, 21:25

Any 'pilot' who falsifies his credentials shows a disgraceful lack of integrity and should have his licence pulled - permanently.
Especially one who claims to have flown for the "North of Scotland Egg Marketing Board." Old One-Twenty hands (like me) will know the phrase well.

Thunderpants

6th Sep 2010, 21:31

I'm just curious as to what the mean by 'falsifying' exactly. Do they mean that some one applied for the job saying that they had 1000hrs on jets, when infact they only had 900hrs? Which, naughty it may be, but barring insurance minimums, I suspect won't keep you out of heaven.

My concern is that if some guy rocks up telling everyone he has 1000 PIC on the A330, when infact, the last aircraft he commanded was a C172, then why ell' was this not picked up on during the selection process, specificly, the sim eval? :confused:

411A

6th Sep 2010, 23:23

He was a near death experience waiting for a place to happen and I was glad to see the back of him.

No doubt.
The absolute LAST thing one would want to do is hire a pilot with a military fast jet background, of any kind.
The Brit 'Pablo' comes to mind as a prime example...and malcontent, personified.:}

Touch'n'oops

7th Sep 2010, 01:12

On first entering the professional pilot world, I too couldn't understand why airlines were so hung up on hours. Now that I have them, I see why. The more experience/time in the flight deck the better I perform, whether it's day-to-day to achieve a safer flight and save fuel or in the sim using the experience not to make the same mistakes.

As for military vs. civvy argument, I understand the two worlds are very different and require different skills. In the other words I would not want a fast jet pilot to command on a civilian flight without experience and vice versa for the civvy pilot in the fast jet. You just can't compare that way. :ugh:

SNS3Guppy

7th Sep 2010, 01:47

It happens.

I've met a lot of pilots who didn't have the experience they claimed. I had an assistant chief pilot who claimed all kinds of experience...until I happened to walk into a flight school one day to buy some supplies, and saw a wall of pictures of student graduates. I was surprised to find his picture on the wall, listing him as a new Private pilot, only a year before.

Ironically, I had an opportunity to sit in a group interview for an operator, with him. We were both applicants for the job. The person conducting the interview asked this imposter about some of his experience, and he glanced at his feet and mumbled "I don't really like to talk about it." He was dismissed from the interview several minutes later.

At a small Part 135 operation, I was acting as a check airman, and was asked to prepare a new hire applicant for his FAA checkride, one evening. It became quickly apparent that he didn't know his material, long before we ever got to the airplane, a small Cessna 210. The flight only confirmed it. A review of his background turned up several companies that had never heard of him though he claimed experience there, including an airline. He had excuse after excuse, and eventually abandoned his effort and went somewhere else...under false pretenses.

I even met an examiner who ran a flight school that churned out ATP's (who is still in business), who advised his new graduates to falsify their logbooks. He said that if the students had a conscience issue, they could later forgo logging some time. That, of course, didn't obviate the fact that they'd falsified their time and entered the cockpit unqualified and under false pretenses, or make anything right.

I suspect that the number of falsify their experience and time, and their resumes, are not few.

Load Toad

7th Sep 2010, 02:47

I'm not a pilot or related to the industry other than as a passenger (who flew Shenzhen Airlines last week...).
I don't know what the falsifying was but - the Chinese authorities have caught the people concerned and they are we are told undergoing testing and retraining. And it has been reported - so - it ain't all a 'typical Chinese' type thing is it?
Unfortunately not just in China - but if you think of all the emails offering qualifications for money - there is a culture of falsifying qualifications whilst wrong people often feel the need to falsify because bumping up the amount of qualifications needed to get even to the interview stage is used as a way to cut down on the number of applications received.
This problem, it seems to me - has two sides to it.

411A

7th Sep 2010, 03:09

JD had it right.
He was the DirOps for a quite large corporate flight department, with several Gulfstreams and, later on, a B727.
Anyway, I receive a call at noon time in Florida.
Can you come to Burbank, he says, I'll send the company helicopter to get you at LAX.
Your ticket will arrive tommorow by FedEx.
I travel to LAX, and ride in the company helicopter to BUR.
JD says, welcome, we need an overseas chief pilot and you have been chosen for the position.
He then says...the company Gulfstream is out back behind the hangar, lets fly to Fresno for lunch.
I climb into the LHS, JD in the right, and he says...fly it like a 707, and I'll take care of the rest.
We depart to Fresno and complete a few ILS approaches, two with an engine inop, then land.
JD, I and a few forest service DC7 pilots that he knew, all have lunch together..
JD mentions...'I always want to see if the new guys can fly properly, that way you can spot a fake inside of thirty minutes.'
JD was correct.
Three others had the Gulfstream treatment before I was hired.

Eventually, a fake is found out, but usually not before he has done a disservice to others.

rubik101

7th Sep 2010, 03:39

This extract from today's New York Times;

News reports indicated that slightly more than half of the pilots found to have given fake qualifications on their résumés worked for Henan Airlines’ fast-growing parent, Shenzhen Airlines. Officials at Shenzhen Airlines could not be reached for comment.

Peter Harbison, the chairman of the Center for Asia Pacific Aviation in Sydney, said that except for the Henan Airlines crash last month, China has had a strong reputation for aviation safety in recent years. “They certainly do actually, which is not what I would have said five or six years ago,” he said.

China’s top leaders have given aviation regulators a clear mandate to make safety their top priority and told the chief executives of the nation’s airlines that they would be held personally responsible for any crashes, Mr. Harbison said.

The tendency for Chinese carriers to err on the side of safety is sometimes visible at Hong Kong International Airport. During storms, the Chinese planes tend to be a little quicker to divert to other airports while the planes of international carriers continue to land.

protectthehornet

7th Sep 2010, 04:04

"Fate is the Hunter".

call em what they are: dudleys

Runway101

7th Sep 2010, 04:30

That doesn't surprise me. With such a huge demand of pilots, and almost no infrastructure to rely on for producing them, that was almost foreseeable.

I've trained in the USA a couple of times since 2006, and in parallel to my flight schools helicopter training they had a program running in cooperation with Chinese airlines for fixed wing pilots. The Chinese would send groups in big numbers for initial flight training, from PPL to ATP, then they headed back to China. They were all trained in groups, no one on one training going on there. Even during flight instruction there would always be two more on the back to look over the shoulders.

It was almost impossible to small talk with any of them due to the poor English, in the air we couldn't understand them either. I was surprised that ATC could understand what they were yelling into the radio actually (I've been in and around China since the 90s and communicating with Chinese is definitely not new to me). At one point the school planned to actually do phase 1 in China and send an instructor over there, so that he could teach them English and some basics for a while, before they flew to the USA. I think this never happened.

In my opinion you cannot compare these pilots and their environment and standards with the western world. They are not part of a free labor market or whatever you would call that. They don't pay for their training, nor will they have to go and find a job on their own. They have been chosen at a young age out of school to be trained and then go and fly heavy aircraft. Their path is predetermined.

Maybe the idea is like venture capital, you invest in 100 companies in hope that one or two of them hit the jackpot. So maybe they train thousands of pilots in hope that a few hundred turn out good. Or maybe they are just using all of them anyway, I don't know ;-)

I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots themselves get these documents falsified for them, and they are just told to sign here and there. That's how many things in China work anyway. Why would that be different in aviation?

If I am not wrong there is also an old thread about a Chinese flight school somewhere here on pprune, where they tried to get FAA instructors to teach Chinese pilots in China. A lot of falsifying was already going on back then, and some instructors reported flying without licenses, with INOP equipment, etc... that was already years ago, not sure if this outlet still exists but I guess it does.

This could be the thread, but I could be wrong, as I remember something older and about a flight school near or in Beijing.

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/306009-shenzhen-kunpeng-academy-chinese-flight-training-general.html

3.) The Chinese Concept of Training:In China, the standards of
Training are extremely low, in fact doing one's best is not particularly the
goal nor is learning the actual "true" objective.

On the contrary, passing of illegitimate tests, cheating, and simply logging
hours in a logbook to meet a TCO requirement are the normal everyday
occurrences that are prevalent.

You will be amazed at the levels of utter incompetence and corruption that
prevail throughout everyday life in these "schools."

Load Toad

7th Sep 2010, 11:07

Interesting comment.

Why then with the Chinese simply batching up pilot training and having such poor English skills, corruption & falsification of records has Chinese aviation been pretty safe (certainly much improved in recent years) even though there has been such a massive growth in domestic aviation and an increase in domestic airlines?

Quite a paradox innit?

AlexanderH

7th Sep 2010, 16:41

Sorry I take back what I said earlier about the news in China reporting this issue.
It was also in some Chinese language national papers.

Many airline pilots have fake credentials (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-09/07/content_11265252.htm)

Neptunus Rex

8th Sep 2010, 14:49

Load Toad
Poor English skills are not a problem for Chinese pilots communicating with ATC whilst flying inside mainland China, as they speak Putonghua (Mandarin) to each other.

However, two other problems arise. Non Chinese-speaking crews cannot understand them and so cannot know where they are, and at what level. The other problem is that Chinese pilots are very often flying modern Western aircraft, with the wording on the screens in English. Imagine flying an aircraft where the screens had Chinese pictograms (Barbed Wire Writing.)

Green Guard

8th Sep 2010, 15:11

Non Chinese-speaking crews cannot understand them and so cannot know where they are, and at what level

Maybe that is why they..... and we too,
have that lovely toy "tcas"

Bruce Wayne

8th Sep 2010, 15:21

I'm just curious as to what the mean by 'falsifying' exactly. Do they mean that some one applied for the job saying that they had 1000hrs on jets, when infact they only had 900hrs? Which, naughty it may be, but barring insurance minimums, I suspect won't keep you out of heaven.

If you don't have it/havn't done it and you adjust paperwork to show you have, thats falsification, pure and simple.

Red Top Comanche

8th Sep 2010, 18:40

I think its a bit endemic. When I was being checked out for my first group aircraft the intructor said your fine, no problems and when I said i had to fly with another group member for a few hours as i was short of the 100 hours needed for the insurance, he just said "just pad your logbook out a little, no one will notice" needless to say I didnt.

protectthehornet

8th Sep 2010, 19:07

I once took a job as an instructor in one of those outfits in florida...they taught lots of foreign students.

I went there and poked around a bit...saw a trainer with its engine running and no one in the plane.

I asked about it...seems some of the students were happy to build time by letting the engine run, while parked , and going in to get coffee.

AS the chief pilot's name reminded me of a famous clown, I elected to leave the establishment and would not ever do business with them.

there is nutty stuff going on out there...so be careful

Norman Stanley Fletcher

8th Sep 2010, 19:29

I am with Bruce 100%. The concern here is that the issue for the Chinese folk is to get licences/'experience'/ratings at any price. That simply is not acceptable and has to be changed. There is much wrong with the western world that I do not feel good about. Nonetheless, when it comes to this stuff we have a bit of a lead on the others and we should not be embarrassed to play to our strengths. Safety has many facets and the basic validity of licences is one aspect of that. Then you can start looking to following SOPs and embracing a CRM culture. We have had many heartbreaks along the way to get to where we are and it would be great if the Chinese could learn from our errors rather than re-invent the wheel.

411A

8th Sep 2010, 19:47

...and it would be great if the Chinese could learn from our errors rather than re-invent the wheel.
In many respects, I suspect they have learned.
In my conversations with several China Eastern pilots (mostly First Officers) they seem rather well switched on about a good safety culture...and the low(er) accident rates confirm this trend.

Euroland (and other western pilots), that many times live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
Just look at AirFrance, a very large Euroland aircarrier...and their hull loss rate.
Shocking, to say the least.:yuk:

AltFlaps

8th Sep 2010, 20:18

I think falsifying your titles/qualifications is disgraceful !

Regards

King of Uberveld and Lord Protector of Gelderland
(my mum says I'm the best)

Chuck Canuck

8th Sep 2010, 23:53

Well and good this is exposed in China. Further east in the land of morning calm, it's well hidden to avoid embarassment to the airlines' flight ops administrations. Some of the fakers were caught out during the training and checking process but many manged to clear through the hoops. A certain B744 captain was a lowly f/o at Easy Jet not many years ago but in a short few years he is, lo and behold, king of the jumbo. Several were smart to con the Chinese mainland carriers with their dodgy hours, get their 744 ratings and then did a runner to KAL.......it's just so easy if you learn all the tricks ala DiCaprio!

sunbird123

9th Sep 2010, 07:10

I am told that there are a few <Captains> from the western nations flying for the chinese freight carriers who have a lot of P51 time. These <captains> flew for failed western carriers so their hours/experience cannot be checked. Some were FOs self upgraded to captains.

protectthehornet

9th Sep 2010, 14:13

Chinese pilots who faked resumes allowed to fly again

Some of the almost 200 Chinese pilots who were found to have falsified qualifications
on their resumes have returned to their jobs after they were ordered to undergo
training.

In April 2008, the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) discovered that
some pilots had lied about their flying qualifications, says the authority.

This prompted checks of pilots' resumes across all the airlines, says the CAAC.
It found a total of 192 pilots who had falsified their flying experience.

Some of the pilots had their licences revoked, while others were asked to go through
"remedial training", says the CAAC.
Those who eventually passed the CAAC's checks were allowed to return to the air,
it adds. The CAAC did not say how many pilots were allowed to resume flying.

The issue, which was not made public in 2008, surfaced recently in an aviation safety
conference in China in the aftermath of a deadly air crash last month.

Source: Air Transport Intelligence news

Back to Top

johns7022

9th Sep 2010, 15:07

gtf

9th Sep 2010, 17:01

I wouldn't get too optimistic about China cleaning house. Rather, I think it is the typical Chinese officialdom answer to a disaster. Find a few bad apples outside of government and throw them out to the wolves, then claim the government was not responsible but has acted diligently to identify and resolve the issue.

This is a well established pattern in China that started with the 2008 Sichuan Province earthquake. The population started asking embarrassing questions about official corruption and demanding that government officials be held liable for their (in)action. Ever since, the government looks for a non-public scapegoat for every disaster to blame and divert attention away from other possible issues.

I'm not trying to absolve the pilots with fraudulent credentials at all, but let's not kid ourselves. Why did it take a crash for the CAAC to notice? Why, if it is so endemic at one carrier that, on the face of it, wasn't especially held in lower regards than others, has the probe not been extended to other carriers as well? Smoke and mirrors!

As there seem to be a glut of qualified plots right now why would they act this way?Because no matter how many genuinely qualified pilots are out there, the unqualified ones are always cheaper!

SNS3Guppy

9th Sep 2010, 17:28

This all starts with a chief pilot looking at resumes...and he sees the hours of some of these guys, their work experience, and there is no way it adds up...but he hires them anyway..

You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows in the right seat, CRM, pay to fly, on and on....well you got it...don't complain if the guy in the right seat is weak....it's the same system you guys bought into...live with it, you made your beds..

Interesting statements, when only a month ago you said...

Truly the only way to know how good someone is, is to test them...I am not opposed to putting a 20,000 hr captain next to a 200 hr ab initio pilot...given them a solid ATP written exam then put them in the sim, and start throwing scenarios at them...may the best man win..

Your ringing condemnation tells us that the problem lies with the chief pilot, when in fact it's not the chief pilot that falsifies the resume.

Who is it, exactly, to whom you refer when you say "You wanted 200 hour marsh mellows..."? Me? I certainly didn't want them. Anyone else here? Who is this "You?"

The fact is that a number of operators around the world, including many airlines, put very inexperienced pilots in seats. Ab Initio and cadet programs from well-recognized players such as Lufthansa and Cathay Pacific have such programs, and place young, extremely inexperienced pilots alongside very experienced pilots and put them to work.

Who are these "you guys" that bought into this "system," and exactly whose bed is it in which we are supposed to lie?

411A

9th Sep 2010, 19:10

Apparently all settled....now

@Airwise
Chinese pilots who had lied about their flying experience have been allowed to return to work after they took remedial action to make up their hours, according to the country's aviation watchdog.

:E:E:E

Neptunus Rex

9th Sep 2010, 19:11

250 hour pilots have been foisted on our profession by beancounters; the very same beancounters who have contrived to diminish the authority of the Captain.

Consider this - the 250 hour PTF pilot will not become a 1,000 hour pilot. Once he or she has achieved the extra 100 hours, or whatever they have paid for, they will be replaced by yet another 250 hour wonder.

What amazes me is that actuaries, myopically slaving over their ledgers, have not alerted their Insurance Company masters to the inevitable risk in this parsimonious venture.

SNS3Guppy

9th Sep 2010, 19:31

I would venture to say that far more low time pilots are hired as just that, low time pilots, than individual who have bought their way.

After all, everybody started somewhere.

While I'm not fond of shoe-horning into a miniature CRJ behind two young men who aren't yet old enough to shave, I also recognize that the pay structure won't put an 8,000 hour ATP in the right seat, either. I couldn't personally afford to go to work for a regional airline at the wages they pay, and the position has been an entry level job for some time now.

In the US, the recent regulatory address (still in the works) at raising the minimum hour experience level to 1,500, with an ATP, is a wave at addressing the problem, but nothing more than that. Abroad, inexperineced pilots are common in professional cockpits.

One can't say that the 200 hour mark, or 500 hour mark, or whatever is a magic panacea, nor can one say that a 250 hour pilot is incapable. 250 hour pilots, after all, complete Undergraduate Pilot Training and then go out to fight a war. It's the 250 hour pilots who sell a resume with 1,500 hours on it and experience they don't have, that are the problem.

That problem, and the blame thereof, should be laid squarely on the shoulders of the individuals brazen enough to falsify their own resume.

johns7022

9th Sep 2010, 19:43

Guppy I will have to respectfully disagree..

Why did Bernie Madoff get away with his ponzi scheme as long as he did - Because the SEC was asleep at the wheel.

Why did the banks fail? - Because regulators were asleep at the wheel

What would people do if cops didn't give tickets? Drivers would run wild

What keeps baseball players from taking steriods? congressional hearings.

Who hires the 200 hour wonders, and people with grossly exaggerated resumes? The chief pilots..

There will always be someone out there trying to break the rules and either the gatekeepers do their jobs or they don't.

Just remember this thing got so stupid and so out of hand that congress had to step in because so many operators weren't doing their jobs..

Slasher

9th Sep 2010, 20:26

Falsifying a log book and resume with Parker Pen time has
always been around for as long as I can remember.

I recall a TAA candidate in my day who falsified he had 2000
hours Baron (his only twin time) when it came out he actualy
had only 800 hours on type - 1200 was Parker Pen. He was
instantley dropped from the F27 school that afternoon.

Trentino

9th Sep 2010, 21:03

a former chief pilot of a university flight school that I taught at, claimed significant experience in all types including the L1011...
We all became suspicious of him when we noticed basics just didnt add up..
His stories (which he was quick to tell) where full of holes.
having done a little research and unfortunately having flown with the individual led me to believe he was just your basic weekend warrior...

a couple of friends and I did a basic search of his ratings on the online database only to find.......nothing.

the individual was later fired..then hired again in a different school only to be fired again...

the world will never run out of impostors

gtf

9th Sep 2010, 22:41

Chinese pilots who had lied about their flying experience have been allowed to return to work after they took remedial action to make up their hours.What remedial action can the pilots take in such a relatively short time-span? Attend a course on how to make better forgeries?

Sounds like their harsh punishment is a clear disincentive for anyone else who might consider improving upon their CV in China... not.

ECAM_Actions

10th Sep 2010, 03:19

Don't forget the pilot recently prosecuted for flying for years without a valid license. Goes way beyond falsifying time...

If that goes undetected for so long, what hope detecting a few added hours?

If memory serves, he was caught during a ramp inspection.

ECAM Actions.

SNS3Guppy

10th Sep 2010, 05:56

Who hires the 200 hour wonders, and people with grossly exaggerated resumes? The chief pilots..

There will always be someone out there trying to break the rules and either the gatekeepers do their jobs or they don't.

Perhaps you've worked for some very bad companies. I've never met a chief pilot who knowingly selected a pilot who had falsified his time, or who sought out the lowest common denominator. Perhaps that's common in the circles you frequent. It's certainly not the case at professional operations.

When I have been in a hiring or evaluation capacity and come across such individuals personally, individuals with inaccurate records or falsified claims, I've taken pains to see them exposed. Or dismissed. I don't know anyone who would do differently.

Just remember this thing got so stupid and so out of hand that congress had to step in because so many operators weren't doing their jobs..

If you're referring to the impending NPRM, due tomorrow, or the legislation that's grinding it's way slowly through the bowels of congress, you should perhaps do a little fact checking and learn more about the source of these actions. It had nothing to do with people "falsifying their resumes."

JohnMcGhie

10th Sep 2010, 09:35

What remedial action can the pilots take in such a relatively short time-span? Attend a course on how to make better forgeries?

Sounds like their harsh punishment is a clear disincentive for anyone else who might consider improving upon their CV in China... not.

If you read the original in the China Daily, you will see that these pilots were detected in 2008. So I guess they have had two or three years to ensure that their log books match their experience.

The interesting thing is that, in the China Daily, this report of finding a large number of P51 pilots two years ago was tacked on to their report of the Henan crash, one or two days after the incident. Almost as though the authorities already had a fair idea where the problem lay.

sTeamTraen

10th Sep 2010, 09:57

At my non-aviation place of work, I have recently become closer to our hiring process, and I'm shocked at what I'm discovering. We have a couple of director-level people making $200K/year who have essentially fictitious CVs. But because we are too nice, they get through.

One of these people lasted 5 years; in effect, they defrauded us of a million bucks. If someone had placed a purchase order for one-twentieth of that amount with a company which turned out to be a total scam outfit which took our money and ran, our various audit bodies would be all over it. But when the money is coming from the salary budget, it's not scrutinised nearly as closely. I suspect that this may be a problem in many larger organisations.

FlightlessParrot

10th Sep 2010, 10:07

Not to mention the now-former New Zealand Chief Defence Scientist, who had, apparently, a very imaginative CV. If it had been on the other side of the Tasman, we could call it Walting Matilda.

And he was security vetted at the highest level.

Head scientist quits over CV claims - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10672204)

Tee Emm

10th Sep 2010, 12:45

and place young, extremely inexperienced pilots alongside very experienced pilots and put them to work.

Forgive my naivety, but surely passengers have the right to expect two highly experienced pilots up front. If only the media had the inside knowledge to expose the current set up in many airlines when the crew consists only of a man and his apprentice up front. And if the man becomes incapacitated heaven help the passengers because no one else can.

MagnusP

10th Sep 2010, 13:22

Tee Emm: just how are the pilots supposed to gain the experience you would like them to have?

TOFFAIR

10th Sep 2010, 14:14

Its cetainly not only a chinese problem. Here in Brazil we use to have the "garimpo" pilots flying to the gold mines in the Amazon with no licence or training whatsoever until 10 years ago, maybe still some alive and flying... We had the VASP copilots who logged whatever they seemed fit on the later days of the company, with some absurd loggs of several thousand hours a year when actually flying 20-30 hrs a month. We have the EJ flight school, a recruitment "must" for copilots at gol and for some extent tam, where you payed a 30-40k for some 10-12 hours seneca/jet trainer and your log book boosted from some few hundred hours to around 1500 hours miraculously and maybe just a coincidense the time required to get into the companies! But worst of all is that regulators, DAC and Later ANAC, knew about it but covered it to avoid another scandal and an obvious pilot shortage as Brazil still dont allow foreigners to fly here.
Even legally, is it fair for someone who flew international, with a crew of 4 longhaul, stay half the time sleeping in the crewrest to log the hours full compared to a regional pilot who did 10-15 legs to get the same amount?
Who's to blame?
I think its a whole package:
-lack of control.
-lack of character of those who do it.
-cost pressure on companies which used to come up for training.
-pressure from insurance companies.
-lack of transparency.
-outdated criteria.
-company hopping ( in how may airlines in the world you do a complete career this days?)
-sloppy recruitment (sm times no sim, ineffective time waste with psych...)
and so on!

169west

10th Sep 2010, 14:48

Do the best to avoid to log more then 24 hours a day! Cause you are either flying on a time machine (awesome and I would like a TR on that machine too!), or you need to go back to math 101.
That's why CAAC inspectors found hard to believe!

Denti

10th Sep 2010, 14:59

Forgive my naivety, but surely passengers have the right to expect two highly experienced pilots up front.

I begin to seriously doubt that you have any knowledge of the world of professional aviation at all. If you allways want two highly experienced guys upfront you can never ever hire someone without any experience on type or even god forbid out of your own cadet scheme. You the right to expect one experienced pilot up front and one with some experience sufficient to start learning in the right hand seat up to over 10k hours if you're lucky. But its a range, and it has to have a low point, which is currently at 50 to 80 hours real airplane experience for major carriers.

unb5

10th Sep 2010, 15:04

There was a time that airlines used the Second Officer idea to gain experience...watch and learn but than this too went to the beancounters. At the airline I am with now 250hr pilots come and fly 3 flights with a safety F/O and then 20 flights with an instructor. Needless to say the instructors are a little bit worn out. Now by the time the PİLOT has 300hrs they are released to the line if all goes well. Yipee I get to supervise kindergarten graduate after that for the next year or so. Asked an F/O about winter ops and the reply was : what does snow look like ? But hey they PAİD 250,000 euros to be here !:ugh:

Slasher

15th Sep 2010, 03:41

unb5 you and me both bud, you and me both. :(

PappyJ

15th Sep 2010, 15:06

I've come across 2 pilot logbooks that claimed 35,000 hours +. Both were from light twin/aerial work guys.

What's the chance they're genuine?

Assume that 25% of their career they were employed full time and flew maximum 1000 hours per year. (8750 Hours / 1000 = 8.75 Years

10% of their careers they were unemployed. (Career starts at 21. Retire at 60 = 3.9 years unemployed)

The other 50% of the time they had pretty normal jobs and flew about 700 hours per year. (17500 hours / 700 = 25 years

Split the difference on the other 15% of the career at 8750 hours / 850 per year = 10.9 years

Total = 69.55 years old

Assuming these folks began flying quite early - 21 years old - then it's pretty quick to see that they are way past retirement so you need not worry about it.

The dirty math is even simpler.

20 year old guy manages to fly 1000 per year for 35 years straight. He's 55 years old and, without a doubt, fatigued!

Huck

15th Sep 2010, 15:32

I once interviewed for a job flying a King Aire.

Competing against me was a 30-year-old full-time helicopter pilot who had picked up all his fixed-wing time by working free-lance on his off days.

He claimed 4000 hours of King Aire time. Worked out to about 40 hours a month of block time, all on his off days, every month since college.

He got the job.

169west

16th Sep 2010, 05:44

... and also if someone starts to fly when he was 16 on a little cessna, I will be very careful if he claim to have more than 20.0 TT in his early 50s! TLAR

CAPTAINNIC

16th Sep 2010, 07:16

faking is almost everywhere and at all levels:

almost confirmed rumours has it that pilots with Air India and Korean Air faked their B-777 hours as to pass the entry requirement.

in Turkey, copilots log pilot flying time ( PF ) as PIC time and claim it is legal and in accordance with management and the authority. Then they upgrade and out of a sudden they already have 2000 hours PIC time on type... I dont know, maybe this is correct according JAR, but it just does not feel right...

and the english level proficiency test, if messured with the same standards for everyone, then over 50% of for example Turkish pilots would not be legal to fly international routes anymore. and there are even worse english speakers than the turks...

safe flights, nic

Maisk Rotum

16th Sep 2010, 07:23

Lets not forget that there are large numbers of Captains at Shenzhen Air that are not Chinese, and had never flown as Captains prior, who told Shenzhen Air they had. From Shenzhen's perspective they simply wanted to keep their planes flying, so if a pilot could pass whatever checks the Chinese threw at him the Chinese never did a background check. Once this rort became known many jumped on the band-wagon. An act that had been known, and perhaps facilitated by colleagues from previous airlines who were now in a position to advise the Chinese on best/safest practise.

Tankengine

16th Sep 2010, 10:07

You guys talking about large hours also need to think about the pilots who did start young and have full-time jobs. I fly as little as I can at work but glide in my spare time. :)
I started both at age 16 and got into present [legacy] airline at 24. [lucky:O]
Currently 17500hrs+ and another 3500hrs+ gliders at aged 46. So 30 years for 21000hrs, if I go to 56 [my choice] I should have at least 28000hrs, or if 66 [like many old blokes here] 35000hrs.:\
Most airlines get their pound of flesh these days!:mad:
That said, I don't have a CV because I will stay here until I retire [I hope!]:)

Whiskey Papa

16th Sep 2010, 11:03

Perm (Russia) Boeing 735 crash 2008 - 88 killed - pilot error, spatial disorientation - would this have happened if one of the crew had 2,000 hours?

Captain Rodion Medvedev had a flight record of 3689 hours while First Officer Rustam Allaberdin had 8713. Later it was revealed that Medvedev's flight record as a captain was 452 hours and that Allaberdin's experience of Boeing 737's was just 219 hours.

It's clear that these things can be investigated after the event; records are available in places other than the crew log book. Is it not mandatory to check these thing? Is the airline/employer not culpable in a case like this?

I'm clearly a scardy cat; I'm too frightened to add even 15 mins to my ppl log book.

WP

Maisk Rotum

16th Sep 2010, 12:06

47 started at 17. 18,000 hours. 30 years. 600 hours a year on average. seventeen different employers. unemployed for 4 months in my career. now flying 900 a year. flying more in the last year than I have for 25 years.

169west

16th Sep 2010, 12:11

...let try to do some math

35000 / 24 = 1458 / 365 = almost 4 years ... over all is not a lot, you spent only 4 years of your 66 doing what you really want!

click

16th Sep 2010, 13:10

Sitting on a three legged chair in a dark closet for 8 hours with the vacuum cleaner on...for fun, let's throw in someone with you from a different culture who smells differently, can't order a coffee in English if his life depended on it and wants you to leave yesterday. Wonderful 4 years...enjoy!

cptbb

16th Sep 2010, 15:32

The overall experience one has is extremely important.

I served 13.5 years in the military, logged 1,434 hours AND thought in my small mind I was the ace of the base. I had no clue, at that point in my career, that I was just beginning to learn. I had no clue, at that point in my career, all that would come.

It is dark, the windshield wipers cannot keep pace with the amount of rain washing the windscreen, it is gusty, you have a know-it-all, but inexperienced FO in the right seat, scared out of his wits, grabbing at the controls, making corrections opposite to what is needed and you feel in your butt, the runway lights and white painted lines are nearly indistinguishable at 30 feet, looks like landing into a blackened bathtub, the airplane will touch down, even if you TOGA, there is no other real choice or options, because the airport has TRWs on both sides, as you approached into a deep black valley of weather and at the departure end, that the funky radar didn't adequately display, the city has been experiencing its worst rain in 50 years, and you are banking on your past 30 plus years experience to ensure a successful outcome. Trust me, a lesser pilot . . . that is with lesser experience, could not do it. I wasn't proud of what I did and consider myself lucky, but I had nil choice. I put my head down and kicked mother nature in the guts.

That said, it is not just about accumulating hours. 30 years flying in circles, as you teach stalls and spins, is not the same as landing on a dirt strip in Africa nor a short gravel strip in Alaska nor making takeoffs and landings into LaPaz, at well over 13,000 feet elevation. It IS about the quality of experience and varied experience a pilot gains throughout his career.

Flying time does matter, but the right kind of time.

169west

16th Sep 2010, 15:48

Time is an important discriminator, if actual.
The overall experience one has is extremely important.

I served 13.5 years in the military, logged 1,434 hours AND thought in my small mind I was the ace of the base. I had no clue, at that point in my career, that I was just beginning to learn. I had no clue, at that point in my career, all that would come.

It is dark, the windshield wipers cannot keep pace with the amount of rain washing the windscreen, it is gusty, you have a know-it-all, but inexperienced FO in the right seat, scared out of his wits, grabbing at the controls, making corrections opposite to what is needed and you feel in your butt, the runway lights and white painted lines are nearly indistinguishable at 30 feet, looks like landing into a blackened bathtub, the airplane will touch down, even if you TOGA, there is no other real choice or options, because the airport has TRWs on both sides, as you approached into a deep black valley of weather and at the departure end, that the funky radar didn't adequately display, the city has been experiencing its worst rain in 50 years, and you are banking on your past 30 plus years experience to ensure a successful outcome. Trust me, a lesser pilot . . . that is with lesser experience, could not do it. I wasn't proud of what I did and consider myself lucky, but I had nil choice. I put my head down and kicked mother nature in the guts.

That said, it is not just about accumulating hours. 30 years flying in circles, as you teach stalls and spins, is not the same as landing on a dirt strip in Africa nor a short gravel strip in Alaska nor making takeoffs and landings into LaPaz, at well over 13,000 feet elevation. It IS about the quality of experience and varied experience a pilot gains throughout his career.

Flying time does matter, but the right kind of time.

Very true! And usually in this big discrimination falls military pilots at the end of their military commitment with less then 3000 total time. Usually they do not meet the minimum requirement but their experience go beyond the 4000 TT an Airline wants for a right seat.

cptbb

16th Sep 2010, 16:03

Quoting Load Toad: "I don't know what the falsifying was but - the Chinese authorities have caught the people concerned and they are we are told undergoing testing and retraining. And it has been reported - so - it ain't all a 'typical Chinese' type thing is it?"

Fact, the Chinese pilots are so desperate to make Captain and to earn more money that they do add time to their logbooks they did not righteously earn, such as wearing sunglasses, as we fly into the late afternoon sunshine, yet log Night time, though I a made a Day Landing and logged it as such.

IF, IF the CAAC were smart, they would compare the Captain's Pilot logbook against the First Officer's Logbook. IF, IF the CAAC were smart they would be doing unannounced "ramp checks" and burst through the doors of a random airline, every week, to check maintenance records, maintenance training records, flight records, crew duty and flight time records, pilot credentials, et al.

The biggest problem with the CAAC is there is no enforcement of the regulations. Basically, airlines, just don't give a crap. And, worse, the Chinese pilots fear for their jobs, though they have lifetime contracts. They are a lawless lot, do what the hell they want, the airlines coerce pilots to violate the CAAC Regulations, to do otherwise the airline will "punish" them.

You could be shouting at the top of your lungs that a situation is unsafe, they are violating the CAAC regulations, you do not want to take a particular aircraft or a particular flight, but the airline will break your will, one way or another. You fight the good fight, day after day, until one day, you walk out or just say "stuff it" and give in to them. Of course, there are complete spineless lackeys, whom can't get a job anywhere else, and suck up to them, regardless how deep the Chinese shove it up their arse.

I am still fighting. I WILL go down fighting. Why? Because they are 100% wrong. I live insulated within a box I built for myself. One side the Air Laws, another side the Flight Ops Manual, another side the Aircraft Limitations, another side my personal limitations, another side common sense, and always leave yourself a way out.

I ****in hate the Chinese way of thinking!