Paris Control now handling IFR traffic below FL120?

[IO540]

One interesting thing I saw on a recent flight was that in N France we were handled by Paris Control, despite being at only FL100.

This appears to be a change from past practice where Paris Control would seemingly not handle traffic below FL120, and is important to pilots flying IFR from France to the UK at sub-oxygen levels (FL100-110) who in the past used to get dumped onto London Information (the French used to hand you over to "London 124.6" :) ) with their IFR clearance being stealthily terminated in the process.

It appears that of the N French ATC units only Paris Control have a handover arrangement with London Control, so the only ways to preserve one's IFR clearance were to fly at FL120+, or to leave France on specific routes which led directly into lower level Class D in the UK (e.g. the ORTAC-SAM one). On the cross-channel routes e.g. via SITET one would be dumped onto London Info.

I used to solve this by always flying at FL120-140, even if the weather was nice.

I have not tested the lower limits on this but have seen Paris Control operate FL100 on two recent occassions, and every GA piston aircraft is capable of FL100. And below FL080 one will enter UK airspace in Class G anyway, which in the UK terminates the IFR clearance.

It appears that the French are making an extra effort to make this work, because on the last flight we were handled by Caen Radar briefly (due to some military activity) and then handed back to Paris Control in time for the handover to London Control.

:ok:

[welkyboy]

Caen hasn't got any Radar. their traffic is handled by Deauville

[IO540]

Caen hasn't got any Radar.So I thought but the unit I was handed over to was called Caen and they could see us allright. But then most French towers have a radar display, unlike the UK. Maybe there was a para jump?

[Contacttower]

One interesting thing I saw on a recent flight was that in N France we were handled by Paris Control, despite being at only FL100.

Might have been me actually, coming back into Bournemouth from the South of France earlier in August. I wasn't aware that below FL120 would ever have been a problem, I mean I was on the airway, above the MEA and in controlled airspace...why would Paris not have handled me?

[mm_flynn]

My understanding (only limited) of French Airspace organisation is that if your airway is going through a TMA then you are handled by the approach control unit rather than the area control. So if you are on a 'low' airway out of France you will be handled by the local unit (i.e. Lille) rather than the area. These local units seem to have limited ability to hand off to London Control, which can result in flights being handed to London Information and then unable to regain their Class A airspace IFR clearance. On in particular was a Jet Prop out of somewhere like LFAT that was levelled at FL090 (on the way to something like FL250 - for a trip to the North of England) for the handoff from France to the UK. They were handed to London Info and then had to stooge around London at low level.

[Contacttower]

Sorry IO540, I've just realised I read your post as saying you heard someone else flying at FL100 over Northern France flying back to the UK and not as it actually says that you were at FL100.

[IO540]

mm_flynn - to this day I have no idea how one could file and fly out of LFAT to somewhere north in the UK at FL250, without initially ending up OCAS and having to hunt around for an IFR clearance.

If one did this in the UK, the tower would get you a provisional airways join, or (if doing a farm strip departure) one would get it from London Info.

But on an LFAT departure to the north, one is leaving the area where Paris Control could give you a clearance (and leaving it at say 150kt :) ) and since London Control cannot be (AFAIK) contacted directly by any method, that leaves only London Info, and being held down OCAS until this is sorted.

It may be better to depart LFAT and initially climb along the coast, until Paris Control have you sorted?

A tricky one...

[Contacttower]

On in particular was a Jet Prop out of somewhere like LFAT that was levelled at FL090 (on the way to something like FL250 - for a trip to the North of England) for the handoff from France to the UK. They were handed to London Info and then had to stooge around London at low level.

But surely level at FL090 would but him right in London's airspace just a few minutes after take-off? I find it hard to believe that it wasn't some sort of mistake...I mean a reasonable amount of IFR traffic presumably comes from Northern France into the UK even at piston/turbo pro levels.

[IO540]

and this is exactly the issue.

Yes, at FL090 heading towards say Lydd will place you firmly into UK Class A, but unless you get a handover to London Control you are not going to get a service in that airspace.

Even though you are in CAS continuously.

LFAT will probably clear you initially to FL080/090 or so and that is now your vertical clearance. Your filed route remains your lateral clearance.

If at that point you lost comms, then as per international IFR rules, you would fly the filed route, climbing to the filed level at some appropriate point. You had an IFR clearance out of LFAT and you stay with that, because you never cancelled IFR.

But you won't lose comms :)

You will be handed by LFAT to "London 124.6" which is London Info, and they will tell you to descend below CAS. That is what is wrong here. It is a lack of coordination capability between the "smaller" French units and London Control. I don't know any more about the background. I have asked various ATCOs but nobody seems to know.

[Contacttower]

What's to stop one from just calling on the London Control frequency? If they've received your flight plan it shouldn't be a problem...

[IO540]

Firstly there are perhaps a dozen LC frequencies. The other thing is that LC won't talk to you unless they can see your tail # on their computer, and for that to happen there has to be some prior coordination.

How this works is a mystery to me but you have to get a squawk allocated initially, which has to be out of the right range of numbers for LC. I don't know if that squawk comes from Eurocontrol, but logically it might. Then, in some countries (not the UK, apparently) as soon as the radar picks up that squawk, your tail # and flight planned route pops up on the IFR controllers' terminals along the route. Then when you call up the IFR controller, you get a response right away (in seconds, with LC, who often ask for a squawk ident to make sure).

If you have not been allocated that "right" squawk, LC will never offer you a service (because they can't see you) and this is one reason why some pilots find they cannot get into CAS in the UK - the departure tower has given them a wrong squawk to start with. This happens every time if you file IFR in the UK but at a "low" level e.g. FL060 OCAS e.g. Lydd to Cardiff.

This is about all I understand, and I have found it very hard to find anybody who can fill in the detail.

[Contacttower]

Firstly there are perhaps a dozen LC frequencies. The other thing is that LC won't talk to you unless they can see your tail # on their computer, and for that to happen there has to be some prior coordination.

True, although calling the one that you last spoke to on your way to France might work...I only suggested it because leaving Scotland the other day I wanted to get my IFR clearance, not knowing any different I called Scottish Information while still on the ground, only to be told to call Scottish Control, it took them about 2 minutes to find my plan. London perhaps work differently but Scottish didn't seem to have a problem with picking me up 'from scratch' as it were, coming from a airfield with no radio in the open FIR. Perhaps the ATC forum could help on this one?

[IO540]

I have never heard of anybody calling London Control directly after filing a flight plan. It would be great if one could, because sometimes London Info take a while to organise the IFR clearance. It would also potentially avoid the France to UK handover saga where you get dropped out of CAS.

Somehow I suspect it isn't meant to work :)