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UTW
4th Sep 2010, 02:02
From the Herald Sun 4th September...

"Meanwhile, the airline also released its annual report yesterday, showing Jetstar boss Bruce Buchanan received a mammoth 43 per cent increase in salary to $1.1 million.

The pay rise came as the budget carrier sank to a loss in the fourth quarter, as a drop in demand and stagnant yields put pressure on its model.

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce received a modest haircut, dropping his salary from $3.6 million to $2.9 million."

A. Le Rhone
4th Sep 2010, 02:07
...and it is on this ground that you need to concentrate your PR campaign.

With that and the (very real) threat to safety of using fast-tracked dodgy pilots from dubious backgrounds overseas you have the basis for a solid campaign.

The hypocrisy of these management people is gobsmacking. Screw you and other staff by continuously eroding your already meager Terms & Conditions whilst simultaneously giving themselves massive pay-rises.

What better time for a truly united industrial lobby group.

You have the ammunition, now use it sensibly.

Sunstar320
4th Sep 2010, 02:15
So how much did they lose in the 4th Qtr?

Higs
4th Sep 2010, 04:04
Mr "A. Le Rhone" wrote:
"With that and the (very real) threat to safety of using fast-tracked dodgy pilots from dubious backgrounds overseas"

As an "overseas pilot" I take offence!!! You should be careful what and how you write replies.

Not impressed

Keg
4th Sep 2010, 04:22
Higs, I suspect you're being over sensitive as well as displaying a lack of comprehension. Were you fast tracked? Are you dodgy? Are you of dubious background? If not then the statement doesn't apply to you.

A. Le Rhone
4th Sep 2010, 06:21
Higs - too sensitive. I'm also an 'overseas pilot' currently, although I do have an Australian ATPL and I was trained here.

What I object to is the concept that some highly paid executive thinks it's acceptable to employ pilots from countries where they just don't train pilots properly and the airlines there have mediocre to appalling safety records. I'm not talking about the UK or Canada but places that regularly crash aircraft and kill people. I find it doubly-galling that the reason those executives do so is solely to put pressure on current or future pilots of that airline to accept ever-diminishing salaries.

Australia has a good safety record for a reason. Indonesia, Botswana and Uzbekistan don't. Not Politically Correct? Too Bad. Lives are at stake quite literally. It's ever so easy to fast-track some poorly-trained and lowly-paid Uzbekistani pilot with an Australian licence and let him loose. All it needs is some employer clout in Canberra and less than diligent C&T Captains (motivated by 'hefty' allowances but pressured by management).

This exact scenario happened with one overseas airline I was associated with (in one of the world's most affluent countries) and the results were a disgrace. Another major low-cost airline has used similar techniques and fortunately hasn't (by pure luck) had fatalities, but that in itself doesn't justify the way it hires, 'trains' and overworks its pilots. That airline is a ticking time-bomb. It's also the one that too many young, new executives like to use as their datum for a successful airline.

And oh how the media howl (and quite rightly) when some of there own are killed, as happened in the Indonesian 737 abysmal approach some time ago. I have seen operational decisions from crews in this part of the world that defy belief. We all make mistakes but the training we had in Australian GA/military and some airlines taught us well how to try to minimise these mistakes. That training and discipline does not exist in so many foreign jurisdictions it is a real concern - and the accident statistics prove that.

So Higs, you can be offended all you want but the thought of dodgy pilots from dubious backgrounds overseas being imported purely to bolster some executives already bulging wallet is more than offensive, it's stomach-churningly sickening.

Most certainly Not Impressed.:(

Signature
4th Sep 2010, 06:58
This is another weapon in our fight against FSO 136.

As disgusting as this is, it will help.


Onya Bruce.

ampclamp
4th Sep 2010, 08:42
Lucky they lost some money .
Imagine the pay rise with spectacular profits!

Arnold E
4th Sep 2010, 09:02
Well ampclamp, you guys clearly contributed to the loss so just imagine the pay rise you will get.:cool:

ratpoison
4th Sep 2010, 09:03
(They can't use any fast tracked dodgy pilots of dubious backgrounds in Australia as they are all working for CASA! )
Hahaha now Keg, after our little spat on a different subject, I find that one of yours bloody funny.:D:ok:
I think you and I are going to get along just fine eh!:p

ampclamp
4th Sep 2010, 09:29
Hey arnold I almost wish I did work for them! Well....maybe not:}

Arnold E
4th Sep 2010, 10:59
he must have trouble sleeping
I very much doubt that.:yuk:

Zoomy
4th Sep 2010, 11:06
Regardsless of JQ profits, he must be putting in 43% more time.................................................bul^%$$ $:uhoh:

Mr Pilot 2007
4th Sep 2010, 11:36
](They can't use any fast tracked dodgy pilots of dubious backgrounds in Australia as they are all working for CASA! )

Ha-ha. Good One!

Poor BB, working for a budget airline only gives him a salary of 1.1 million with his 43% pay rise, for cutting his staffs pay and conditions and employing foreign pilots, by off-shoring j*.

Has a bit of catching up to do to Q ceos salary.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-exboss-paid-11m-20090921-fxko.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-exboss-paid-11m-20090921-fxko.html)

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/qantas-chiefs-pay-soars/story-e6frg90f-1111117871517 (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/qantas-chiefs-pay-soars/story-e6frg90f-1111117871517)

However they will have to go into bankruptcy protection if they want a real ceos salary.
Third paragraph-United airlines
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06082007/profile.html (http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/06082007/profile.html)

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4170911/ (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4170911/)

Employing foreign pilots will increase his bonus if he reduces costs.
I very much doubt any other considerations such as employment for Aussie pilots or safety issues come in to the equation.

He will hope if here are any problems he will be gone by then and it will be someone else’s responsibility.

It amazes me when the Captain and Crew literally have the responibility for the lives of 300-400 passengers and crew each flight, and the ceo has a responsibility to pay a dividend to the shareholders, yet the ceos and executives salaries show what is considered more important by the shareholders and airline owners.

The annual shareholders dividend is worth 10 to 100 times more, than the 60,000+ passengers lives the pilots may carry each year.

That puts it in perspective for me.

oicur12.again
4th Sep 2010, 18:47
"...the thought of dodgy pilots from dubious backgrounds overseas being imported..."

Where do you draw this conclusion from?

Scare tactics aside, what part of JQ's plans include altering the law to allow foreign pilots from "Indonesia, Botswana and Uzbekistan" to come to australia en masse in some "fast-track" program to allow "poorly-trained" pilots to sneak under the checking and training radar overseen by CASA?

Do you still search for commies under the bed too?

Muff Hunter
4th Sep 2010, 20:59
They won't be in OZ yet.

They'll be employed in Sing and NZ flying to OZ..

Looks like they are willing to take anyone they can get.

Mr Pilot 2007
4th Sep 2010, 22:33
Where do they say they intend to employ foreign pilots for j* SIN base.

I understand they have asked the j* pilots who would like to relocate to the SIN base on less than the minimum Aussie award (and pay for their own accomodation etc).

But I assume if not enough Aussie pilots are willing to relocate to SIN on what they intend to pay, they will fill the slots with non Aussie pilots flying to Aus.

Mr.Buzzy
4th Sep 2010, 22:52
Another meeting with BB and AJ

YouTube - BB and AJ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGObGID6Cr4)

bbbbbbbbbzzzzI like a nice hamzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Keg
4th Sep 2010, 23:52
I've been advised that my original tongue in cheek comment regarding CASA may have caused some offence. It was tongue in cheek and no offence was intended. Given that some have mis-interpreted my comments as serious and indicated that legal action may be preceding on the basis of those comments I've deleted them and hope the following comments reflect my feeling of the CASA personnel I've dealt with.

The CASA guys I've met in my time have mostly been OK people to talk to. I acknowledge that this may not be everyone's experience. I have no idea as to their experience levels or competency as that's a matter for CASA to sort out.

I hope that settles that.

OpsNormal
5th Sep 2010, 01:48
Keg, I saw your comments and like most would have got a smile out of it. There was nothing there that would (or even should) have caused offence in your ribbing of them. Once again there are too many princesses in this industry.... :=

Enough out of me....:oh:

ratpoison
5th Sep 2010, 02:24
AUS
Australian United Socialists
"We take offence to your offence"

The Green Goblin
5th Sep 2010, 04:05
It may be time to crack that Keg old fella cause nunc est bibendum :cool:

Don't worry, I had a giggle too, luckily they didn't make you say I [insert name here] humbly apologise :p

We're not happy, 'till you're not happy :ok:

rmcdonal
5th Sep 2010, 04:50
I have no idea as to their experience levels or competency as that's a matter for CASA to sort out.
God don't give them another task, they still haven't finished updating the CAR 1988 to 1998 yet. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

'Because flying wasn't meant to be easy' :E

waren9
5th Sep 2010, 05:02
Youtube

Hitlers Jetstar Nightmare.

Mr. Hat
5th Sep 2010, 13:51
I wonder if he's hired a body guard yet.

More I speak to my J* mates more it seems they are getting angrier and angrier. What an incredibly dangerous work environment old mate is creating with his 43% bonus tactics.

Can't wait to see the OTP figures for the "September to Remember".

In the mean time checkies getting ready to head over to VB no doubt. Keep it up lad.

Neptunus Rex
5th Sep 2010, 19:08
Why not get the groundcrew/engineers on side? A simple statement to the effect that they will not handle Australian aircraft unless they are flown by Australian pilots on Australian award conditions should concentrate a few minds.

OneDotLow
5th Sep 2010, 22:50
Neptunus Rex said :

Why not get the groundcrew/engineers on side? A simple statement to the effect that they will not handle Australian aircraft unless they are flown by Australian pilots on Australian award conditions should concentrate a few minds.

Somehow I don't think that would work. They would simply say that we should refuse to fly aircraft that are not turned around by Australian Engineers on Australian conditions. What about turnarounds in foreign ports where Aussie engineers are not available?


NOW MORE IMPORTANTLY :

As Bruce Buchanan is a Qantas employee (Yes, he is NOT employed by JQ, he is employed by QF), does his salary come from "JQ earnings" or is he a parasite off QF's books?

CaptCloudbuster
6th Sep 2010, 01:13
Can't wait to see the OTP figures for the "September to Remember".

I'll eat my Hat Mr Hat if the Jet* Pilots en masse make Sept one to remember for converting hot air to action.

My prediction is all the bluster will come to naught and BB will be emboldened, as the crew will prove yet again they don't have the unity, courage, conviction, foresight or esprit de corps to follow through.

One final sad reflection; to those few undoubtedly young, courageous but misguided individuals who actually do posess a modicum of gumption and decide to "work to rule" - your brave, foolhardy and ultimately futile protest will be remembered.

Unfortunately though, not by your fellow crew.

The Professor
6th Sep 2010, 01:34
"....as the crew will prove yet again they don't have the unity, courage, conviction, foresight or esprit de corps to follow through."

But let me guess, you do?

shnee
6th Sep 2010, 01:55
I see OTP for first flight was about 36% and turn around was about 45%.

A. Le Rhone
6th Sep 2010, 09:08
oicur12 - you suggest that concern about the importation of dodgy foreign pilots is akin to looking for commies under the bed. I'm not sure how you draw those parallels. Companies dearly love to use the threat or reality of importing pilots from places they come cheaply - however they usually come cheaply for a good reason.

To snigger smugly and infer that grave suspicion of CEO's motives is mere paranoia is sticking your head in the sand. As you will be aware, 20 odd years ago airlines CEO's backed by the Government fast-tracked pilots (some very dodgy) from overseas. This was at a time when there was a relative global shortage of pilots, which demonstrates the issues that some of those individuals had and when there were many available pilots in this country. Those pilots however got big salaries to take jobs here in order to undermine the local pilots cause.

Now we are again faced with either offshoring jobs or using foreign pilots not trained in Australia to fly Australian airline aircraft. But this time their undermining will be in the form of lower salaries. Sure you can't blame those guys as they are probably currently on a relative pittance but should the Australian air traveller have to put up with this?

It is not racist to state that many overseas airlines and pilots have poor standards. Nor is it paranoia to to suggest CEO's will import dodgy pilots to Australia. It has already happened! Now however it is being done to further boost corporate profitability and most importantly, fatten the already enormous CEO wallet.

I know what it will take for the Australian public to be outraged by this plan/possibility but it's a pity it needs to get to that before there is outrage.

Nip this nonsense in the bud now.

And to illustrate this case clearly, an extract from today's Fairfax press:

Your chances of dying in a plane crash?
It depends on where you fly
September 6, 2010 - 10:56AM
Flying in the developing world is 13 times more dangerous than flying in first world countries, according to a new study.

Arnold Barnett, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management and a researcher on aviation safety, calculated that the odds of dying on a scheduled flight in first world countries such as Canada and Japan are one in 14 million.

But he found that flying in emerging nations such as India and Brazil leads to a one in 2 million chance of death per flight. Lesser developed countries, such as many found in Africa and in Latin America, were found to have a crash rate of one in 800,000.

Barnett, who based his findings on air safety data, said Nigeria had an especially poor safety record.

diablo_caliente
6th Sep 2010, 09:13
Professor
Fair go! Give captcloud a break. You must admit the "stick together and fight" thing is just chest beating.

My guess is, captcloud has seen it all before and thus is speaking from experience.

Mr. Hat
6th Sep 2010, 10:14
ALR yet another brilliant post. Particularly the last bit.

flying-spike
6th Sep 2010, 12:18
Don't forget the lickspittle safety managers who cower at a CEO'S mention of the key phrases "Downsizing, Economy of scale, Outsourcing and Affordable safety"

AnQrKa
6th Sep 2010, 12:51
ALR said "Companies dearly love to use the threat or reality of importing pilots from places they come cheaply"

When has this happened. when has JQ or any airline ever threatened to use dodgy overseas labor?

neville_nobody
6th Sep 2010, 13:00
I fail to see how they are going to get people from developing countries to fly Jetstar aircraft unless they are prepared to increase their training budget by about 10 000% You ain't going to get someone with two hundred hours and english as a second language through Australian style endorsement training where everything is up to you to figure out for yourself. Australian training is designed around people with thousands of hours not 200 and no operational experience.

A. Le Rhone
6th Sep 2010, 18:49
AnQrKa: ALR said "Companies dearly love to use the threat or reality of importing pilots from places they come cheaply"

When has this happened. when has JQ or any airline ever threatened to use dodgy overseas labor?

Ans: 1989. Not only did they threaten to use dodgy overseas labour they actually did it.

Only then the labour received higher wages than the locals were on or wanted.

oicur12.again
7th Sep 2010, 03:19
ALR,

“20 odd years ago airlines CEO's backed by the Government fast-tracked pilots”

Are we to fear all past occurrences?

The import of cockpit labor in 1989 occurred following the resignation of almost the entire airline cockpit work force in Australia. This is NOT the case now. It occurred during a period of time when the Government of the day clearly had a reform agenda that is NOT the case now. Were foreign trained crews to arrive on our shores clutching a foreign license and type rating, what on earth gives you the impression that JQ training staff will be strong-armed into giving them an easy ride? JQ would PROBABLY NOT be permitted to import foreign labor en masse to fly Australian registered aircraft on domestic services without the alteration to Australian labor law.

I have added the word probably because none of us can say for certain what COULD occur in the future. You are free to concern yourself with what may happen. I listen to the PA on every flight I pax in Australia to pick out a familiar name. I doubt I will be hearing Captain Anatoli from Uzbekistan welcoming me aboard.

Biggles78
7th Sep 2010, 12:04
And wasn't it interesting how quickly they were allowed to resit the Air Law exam. Seems CASA can bend the rules when it suits them. :ugh: