Ditching.

[flybymike]

With summer (hopefully) approaching, a man's thoughts turn to the possibility of a few more overwater flights than usual and this has set me to thinking about the unthinkable again. It is generally recognised that low wing retractables are a safer ditching bet than high wing fixed gear , but since I fly the latter I am wondering whether any of you contributors have any thoughts or answers to the following questions which gnaw at my subconscious.
What is the real likelihood of surviving physical impact with the water in a fixed gear aircraft?
Will the aircraft flip on to its back ?
Will the resultant disorientation make it a realistic probability of a safe and expeditious exit of pilot and passengers from the aircraft?
If it doesn't flip on to its back then presumably one would have to wait for the aircraft to fill with water before being able to exit, in which case it would be close to sinking anyway (probably would sink in fact with full fuel tanks) Does this leave time to get out , inflate a lifejacket and a liferaft before being sucked down to Davy Jones locker ?
Is it likely that a reasonably fit middle aged man would in any event withstand the thermic shock to the cardio vascular system/heart of bitterly cold uk waters even assuming a successful physical ditching?
Should the liferaft be tied to the aircraft when it might blow away after the aircraft sinks and the line snaps (assuming it does snap) or should it be tied to the pilot where it might snag and hinder successful exit from the aircraft?
Is an immersion suit the answer to many of these questions or even a preferable alternative to a liferaft, or does one wear a lifejacket, immersion suit, carry a dinghy and uncle tom cobbly and all ?
Is it practicable to wear an immersion suit in flight or are they too hot and sweaty ? Has anyone successfully survived a ditching with any thoughts on these questions ?

[312928]

Try GA Safety Sense Leaflet no. 21A:

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/ga/ga_home.asp?page=ssl

Hope it helps and that you can swim.

[Fuji Abound]

I don't have the answers to the fundamental questions you ask but a couple of comments. Dinghy sailors have for some years now worn dry suits. These are designed to be worn for quite long periods of time and are pretty comfortable - but not cheap. Even in mid winter, with a few layers underneath, the cold of the water doesn't present a problem for some time, and I guess would give you a far better chance of spending some time in the liferaft assuming you get on board! Some use breathable fabric and even those than don't are not to uncomfortable and are these days easy to get in and out of, leaving your ordinary clothes on underneath with maybe an extra layer. Sailors have also for many years used quick release lanyards for attaching their harness to the boat. These are pretty effective for attaching the liferaft with the ability to release it if the need arises. I guess when avaition meets water their are a few lessons to be learned from sailors.

[This message has been edited by Fuji Abound (edited 07 June 2001).]

[Code Blue]

An ever-popular topic:

See:
www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/001843.html (http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum3/HTML/001843.html)

There are a couple of good links in that thread from Icarus which deal with a lot of your questions.

Keep Dry
;)

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[Warped Factor]

SEMS (South East Marine Services) will arrange dingy practice etc in a local pool if you can get enough folk together. Did it a few years ago, and if it taught me anything it was that getting into a dingy in the non threatening environment of a swimming pool was hard work. I hate to think what it would be like in the Channel.

Andark (nr Southampton) and Fleetwood (nr Blackpool) both offer aviation related survival courses involving the use of dunkers. Fleetwood have a light aircraft style cockpit they can dunk you with, Andark I think use a heli type.

I hope to be doing an Andark course next month which will include liferaft and life jacket skills as well as being dunked a few times.

Both require minimum numbers for the courses (6 or thereabouts) and the cost is around the £150 mark each. I'm sure if someone were to take the lead you might be able to get a group of PPRuNer's together to go on one.

SEMS also offer reconditioned immersion suits at either £100 or £115 depending on the type. I bought one a few weeks ago and am very impressed. Only used it once so far on a reasonably warm day. It wasn't too uncomfortable on the ground, fabric is Gore-Tex, and once in the air was fine. You only need to put it on just before you get in to start up so you are not wearing it for too long prior to getting airborne.

A friend who makes regular trips to France has been using one for a year or two now with no problems. When he damaged one of the wrist seals SEMS fixed it very quickly.

If you want to see a copy of the SEMS brochure for the immersion suits e-mail me with a fax number.

WF.

[AC-DC]

Go to the following link. You will have all the answers for your questions and more.
http://www.equipped.org/home.htm

[hoverbover]

Fuji

Sorry to disagree, but Drysuits are great on a dinghy in winter, but not many peoiple use them in summer, as you really require a regular dousing with cold water to keep the temperature in the suit down, having used all the latest kit the breathable ones are pretty good but if you walk indoors you overheat pretty quickly, so in a plane you would boil in the bag quite nicely! Why do you think the diver/winch crew fly round with the door open on SAR helis all the time(Joke)
They are not to cumbersome though, but the heat would be the problem.

Regards
Hover Bover

[Fuji Abound]

Hover Bover

Good point. They are hot in the summer but no different from an immersion suite. I guess you could leave the zip open, particularly with the front zip variety, so long as you reckon you have enough time / height to zip it up! You really don't want them filling up with water!! At the end of the day I suppose in the summer it depends how much discomfort you are prepared to put up with for the added security. I wear a dry suit in the winter - not in the summer. I am not sure how much sense this makes because as the safety sense leaflets makes clear the sea temperature doesn't vary a lot - but then again if half your trips over water are in the summer and half in the winter you improve your chances by 50% maybe?*!

[This message has been edited by Fuji Abound (edited 07 June 2001).]

[flybymike]

Many thanks for the various opinions and website referrals. Plenty of interesting stuff to be found out there. I'm beginning to think it would be safer to go by boat though.

[jabberwok]

I can recall no less than five ditchings during my flying career. First was a Cessna 150 and both pilots survived (despite one having problems releasing his lap strap which had rotated on impact - the buckle was on the inside, against his waist). Second was a Jodel which floated - pilot survived. Third was a Twin Comanche which floated and the pilot survived. Fourth was a Jodel which partly sank. Two adults in the front got out but the children in the back didn't - and the pilot drowned trying to reach them. His wife was on the wreckage for about 24 hours before being discovered. Fifth was a Beech 24 which didn't float and the occupants survived.

I won't try to draw any conclusions from this - maybe they were all lucky - but the survival rate seems high if the aircraft gets down intact.

[LowNSlow]

Have your 2nd frequency programmed as 121.5 carry an ELT and WEAR A LIFE JACKET AND CLOTHING THAT IS OBVIOUS (not the latest GAP offering but some thing orange) and you stand a chance (a chance nothing more). If you don't like the odds,stay over land.

[flybymike]

Seems to me that the chances of survival on impact are high. It's the bloody cold that kills you.

[skydriller]

I work in the Offshore Oil industry, and every time I go on a helicopter in the UK I have to wear a Bright Yellow Survival (dry) suit, winter or summer. Yes, it can get pretty warm in one during the summer, but with UK water temperatures its not a big deal when considering it might end up saving my life. Offshore workers also have to do a survival course every 3 years too, which amongst other things includes practicing to escape from a simulated sinking & upsidedown helicopter, they call it the heli-dunker for obvious reasons!! RGIT in Aberdeen was the last place I did my refresher training. Anyone can do one of these courses, but I seem to remember an artical in Pilot Mag last year about a course run by the RAF up in Kinloss specifically aimed at private pilots, it cost about £150 as I recall.

[ShyTorque]

Having been required to go through it a number of times, I can thoroughly recommend the dunker training. It will greatly improve your chances of survival if the worst were ever to happen.

ShyT

[arrow2]

I go to bed at night having nightmares about this which, to me is the worst scenario. Never have felt really comfortable flying over long stretches of water but I have done it for years and no doubt will continue to do so.

Usual precautions - wear the jackets and have a servicable dinghy on the back seat. tied to the aircraft with a Swiss Army Knife in my pocket.

Sigh of relief when crossing the French coastline!!!

A2

[flybymike]

I notice that one of the websites above does not recommend the use of an ordinary knife in case of accidentally puncturing the life raft with it. They recommend the use of a clever wedged shaped device with two sharp edges which you slide the line between to cut it , but which in its own right could not be used as an ordinary knife for any other purpose and which could not therefore puncture the raft. Not sure where one would buy such a device though, unless they are standard equipment on a purchased liferaft ? Must agree with last posting. The whole thing is also my worst case scenario as well.

[Code Blue]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">recommend the use of a clever wedged shaped device with two sharp edges which you slide the line between to cut it , but which in its own right could not be used as an ordinary knife for any other purpose and which could not therefore puncture..</font>

A standard seat belt cutter will do just this. It works on line or webbing. Not familiar with UK market, but DIY auto store should be able to get one.

I echo comments on dunking courses. The main problem after getting in the large life rafts is just how long the weakest stomach holds out. Once the first one vomits, everone else does http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

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[David Clarkson]

first thing i thought of when reading your questions was the standard drill of opening the door and jamming something in it(your girl friends shoe my instructor allways said!)when you did all those PFL's in your training!Second is, when ditching in water i was taught,theoretically of course,to read the waves and land along the wave in the ditch as this will increase the chance of a flat arrival,also keep pulling on the nose untill you stal almost in a tail slide,practice that one up at 4000ft if you like!!When crossing water allways use the highest possible altitude available,7500' over the channel now! Allways keep a mental picture of the wind and also a good look out for shipping,there is a lot of it in the channel,and landing along side one of those might be a god idea!
But surely a thorough pre-flight is the most obvious precaution!
Safe and happy flying!

[theRolfe2]

....I notice that one of the websites above does not recommend the use of an ordinary knife in case of accidentally puncturing the life raft with it. They recommend the use of a clever wedged shaped device with two sharp edges which you slide the line between to cut it , but which in its own right could not be used as an ordinary knife for any other purpose and which could not therefore puncture the raft. Not sure where one would buy such a device though, unless they are standard equipment on a purchased liferaft ? ...

If you want such a knife contact your local skydiving center and tell them you want to buy a "hook knife". Parachutists sometimes carry them to "disentagle" themselves in the event they get caught up in their own or (more likely) somebody else's parachute lines. The metal ones are stronger but defintaly won't float....

theRolfe, an ex-Skydiver....

[Rote 8]

Should also be able to purchase a line cutter from a scuba diving shop. Divers carry knives or line cutters to disentangle themselves from unpleasent things underwater (Not really for defending yourself against shark attack).

[mickypitch]

Warped Factor,
I like the sound of the reconditioned immersion suits and as I will have to fly across to Germany in the middle of Winter I could do with one.
Have you got a contact number for them?
I have an e-mail link,
Cheers