John & Martha King - false arrest

[Piper_Driver]

The US FAA has egg all over it's face after a stolen aircraft database that it controls did not remove the registration number that was then re-issued. :ugh:The aircraft with the re-issued number was leased to John & Martha King of the King flight school fame. When Jon & Martha arrived in Santa Barbara in the aircraft local authorities arrested them at gunpoint for aircraft theft! :eek:

AOPA Online: FAA resolves Kings issue (http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2010/100831kings.html)

Some heads are going to roll over this boneheaded move. :=

[Jan Olieslagers]

What's EPIC?

[Squawk7777]

I realize that they are probably annoying to most pilots (the dreaded yet effective King videos), but this is an incident (http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/KingsToHelpWithPoliceTraining_203213-1.html) that John and Martha King will not forget for a while... :hmm: :ugh:

[mcgoo]

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/426023-john-martha-king-false-arrest.html

[kevmusic]

I Googled it - there are over 83.5 million results and the El Paso Intelligence Center doesn't appear on the first four pages. :hmm:

[Genghis the Engineer]

A very balanced and mature response on the part of John and Martha King, I'd say.

I had something similar happen to me many years ago. I'd just moved into a new flat - maybe 2 days before. On day 3, about 7am there was a very loud knocking on the door, which I opened to reveal maybe a dozen armed police.

It turned out that the previous flat occupant had just gone on the run after holding up a local bank with a shotgun.

Fortunately, they had the chap's photograph, and he looked nothing like me!


Stuff like this does happen occasionally, and clearly in this case once the mistake was spotted, everybody's been very sensible about it - including the local police chief phoning to apologise. If the lessons the Kings put on their website are learned, then more good than harm will have been done by the incident.

Presumably the standard police procedure is based upon the theory that if they ever have to seize an aeroplane, it's probably been hijacked. Possibly a flawed theory.

G

[MarkerInbound]

There will be a new DVD. This from AvWeb:

"The Kings will be providing the department with ideas on how to develop training for officers to intercept aircraft properly. John King also suggested the training could be developed into a national set of standard operating procedures for all police departments."

I can see cops pulling their weapons and shooting the TV.

[SNS3Guppy]

There's no egg on anyone's face. The police acted properly in response to the information at hand.

The Kings were not arrested, and there was no false arrest. A standard felony stop was conducted, the problem addressed, and the matter settled. The police responded properly.

[Jan Olieslagers]

"not arrested" ? That's a squibble of words. Innocent people were held at point of gun - apparently through lazy administrative staff - welcome to the land of freedom! Bah. The USA was once an enlightening example to the world, today that's over and done with.

On a sidenote: my own country is far from famous for simple efficient administration - yet we do have a policy to leave one registration with one aircraft, even if it rejoins the register after a stay abroad. Only after several years of disuse can a registration be re-used for another aircraft. No so daft, 't would seem.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I do not know the US law, that's a fact. Nor do I want to, after reading this story. A country that makes this kind of situation lawful, almost ordinary, has only my disgust. Back to the days of Stalin, is it? His actions too were always strictly lawful!

Why can't you simply say "This should not have happened, lessons should be learned to avoid it happening again. And these innocent people have a right to apologies, if not material compensation, for having been accused and held without serious grounds." ?

But perhaps we had better stick to aviation. With this proviso: I have dreamed of flying onto OSH for a long while - I'll stop dreaming now.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I was never throwing stones at the acting police - it was clear the fault was never theirs. Indeed it was not even for them to apologise, though they may have. If so, the better for them. Yet fault there was. This should not have happened.

Neither am I saying this could not happen elsewhere. I have personally created havoc in IT systems that annoyed many people - **** happens, and will continue to happen.

What WAS worrying and disgusting me is that some of the postings here sounded as if though such a mishap should be considered normal and acceptable. That would be an open invitation to Big Brother - who is already far too much alive in the USA, as I understand from far away.

But again, this is politics, which we ought not really to discuss here. I will leave it at this.

[Vizsla]

Had exactly the same with with Boston Police after we hired a Hertz car at JFK which was reported stolen by Hertz, recovered but police not updated.
Our driver arrested at gunpoint and had a night in the cells only being released after intervention by UK embassy because he had an "I" visa with diplomatic immunity.
But he now has a Hertz gold card giving free rental for life.:D

[SNS3Guppy]

"not arrested" ? That's a squibble of words. Innocent people were held at point of gun - apparently through lazy administrative staff - welcome to the land of freedom!

To be detained is not at all the same as to be arrested. The Kings were not arrested, and it's hardly an issue of semantics. The Kings were lawfully detained, were never in any danger, and were treated well.

The issue had nothing to do with laziness. The FAA reissued a registration that had become stale. Law enforcement was not aware of this change, and a mechanism did not exist to communicate the issue...any more than changing one's address at the post office will automatically change it with the driver's bureau.

The scenario worked out very well, in fact, given that a report of a potentially stolen airplane was acted upon quickly and decisively.

Cessna's are popular theft items for use in mexican drug operations. For the police to react quickly and professionally as they did speaks well for the police. There was no disgrace to be found in the way this matter was handled.

That the Kings received an apology none the less was good grace on the part of the police, but hardly a necessity, as the police did no wrong.

[ShyTorque]

My 8 year old son and myself were once "detained" at an airport. On arrival at our holiday destination we were held at the immigration desk for some time. The immigration officer was very nervous, I could see him sweating and his voice was strained as he phoned for assistance. My wife and our other two children had passed through the adjacent desk, just ahead of us. I was told I was not allowed to move or to speak to her, nor was she allowed to remain in the immigration hall. Other officers appeared and we were closely escorted away to a side office for questioning. No-one would explain what was happening, or why we had been detained; in fact I was told to answer their questions and not to ask them.

They kept asking which one of us was which, although they had both of our passports in front of them, so it should have been quite obvious. They also wanted to know where we had come from, where we were going, why we were there and when we had last left that country (it was our first and only visit).

After about twenty minutes of this repetitive questioning (I think they were hoping I would crack and change my story) a phone rang and after one of them answered they told me we were free to go. No apology or explanation. My wife was a bit frantic by the time we found her.

Similar thing happened on departure from another airport in the same country at the end of the three week holiday; although this time were were questioned for a shorter time. Still no explanation was given. All very worrying and intimidating.

I later did some research and discovered that someone with the same name as my 8 year old son was wanted on suspicion of mass murder in that country.

My son strongly insists that he never did it. I tend to believe him as he had never been to New Zealand before, or since. :rolleyes:

[Daedalus-nj]

Martha King DVDs are the student or upgrading pilot equal of mass murder!

I almost took up boating when taking their instrument pilot course:{

[SNS3Guppy]

My son strongly insists that he never did it. I tend to believe him as he had never been to New Zealand before, or since.

Very shifty, those eight year olds.

[Justiciar]

It is almost inconceivable that in the UK or indeed Europe this scenario would have been played out at the end of a gun. The more violent and drug ridden a society is then I guess the more likely it is that this will happen, as every suspected offender will be assumed to be carrying firearms and prepared to use them. The more extreme the law enforcement agencies' reactions to an incident then the more reliable their intelligence should be. What is surprising here is that there appears to have been no cross checking of their information. This is far from the first time that police or other agencies have acted on inaccurate information when it would have been relatively easy to check the integrity of the information they had (and I'm not just talking about the US here - slavish belief by all manner of government agencies in what the computer says seems to be fairly universal).

The "we did nothing wrong" attitude of the police is to my mind not acceptable, unless you live in one of those diminishing number of states where the law is what the government says it is. It would only have taken one trigger happy cop (and there are plenty of those about) for this to have become a tragedy and all because they failed to use their brains and actually make certain that their information was sound. This was after all not some anonymous tip off but a piece of information which could be checked elsewhere very easily (as SoCal said, the FAA database was 100% accurate). It is even more forgivable that the same thing had happened in the resent past with the same aircraft.

[SNS3Guppy]

It is almost inconceivable that in the UK or indeed Europe this scenario would have been played out at the end of a gun.

Ah, yes...the UK, where law enforcement consists of yelling "Halt, or I shall yell 'Halt!' again!"

It would only have taken one trigger happy cop (and there are plenty of those about) for this to have become a tragedy and all because they failed to use their brains and actually make certain that their information was sound. This was after all not some anonymous tip off but a piece of information which could be checked elsewhere very easily (as SoCal said, the FAA database was 100% accurate).

The FAA database was and is irrelevant. Whether the registration information was reissued, the registration mark was still in the system as a stolen aircraft that had been involved in crime. Whether it was a new aircraft bearing an old number, or the old, stolen aircraft still bearing the same number wasn't something that should have been left to chance.

Law enforcement acted correctly in detaining the aircraft and occupants until a determination could positively be made that no crime was in progress, and that the occupants were not guilty of a crime.

No law was broken in this detention, no policy was violated, and all parties acted professionally and in accordance with approved guidelines.

[Justiciar]

Ah, yes...the UK, where law enforcement consists of yelling "Halt, or I shall yell 'Halt!' again!"

I am not sure I understand any of that - must be getting old! As far as I can tell it doesn't actually address any of the issues thrown up by this case, but then what's a bit of thread drift :D

[SNS3Guppy]

I am not sure I understand any of that -

I'm not a bit surprised. You whine about the use of the firearm in the US. While the Brits have emasculated themselves by locking up firearms, and the police sit relatively powerless (albeit gradually having come to the conclusion that yelling "halt" simply doesn't cut it any more, and a firearm is indeed a valuable law enforcement tool). Hence the old, but valid joke about UK law enforcement that rather than yelling "Halt, or I shall shoot," the Bobby need only shout out "Halt! Or I shall yell 'Halt" again!"

[Katamarino]

SNS - I'm usually the USA's biggest fan, but to be fair, the violent crime figures between UK and USA speak for themselves. The UK police can be pretty terrible at times; as can the US police; but not carrying guns does not seem to me to be an issue at all, day-to-day. If you want to take the piss about something that's actually an issue, perhaps you could try using the levels of paperwork they have to do.

[BackPacker]

Ah, yes...the UK, where law enforcement consists of yelling "Halt, or I shall yell 'Halt!' again!"

It's funny to see you make a mockery out of this, but the fundamental issue is very sound. In Europe, the police has a monopoly on violence. The general public is not allowed to posess/carry firearms, as a general rule. Thus, there is no arms race between the police and the general public. And because of this, police officers are basically only allowed to use their firearms in self-defence. (*)

So if a police officer even draws his weapon to help enforce his authority during an arrest, without the police officer being threatened by the suspect in any way, he/she is subject to an investigation and might be reprimanded or even lose his/her job. He/she doesn't even have to fire a bullet for that. Just threatening someone with the use of a deadly weapon is already seen as excessive violence in a lot of situations.

So to make an arrest, police have to use less threatening means. Indeed, their voice, or by physically overpowering the suspect. Or any other means of violence that's proportional to the situation. But the police is taught that it's far better to defuse the situation somehow, than to increase the tension by using uncalled-for violence.

And you know what? It works. And it makes society here generally a better and more friendly place to live in. John & Martha would never have been arrested at gunpoint here, even if the police officers would not have an SOP for stopping a (stopped) light aircraft.

(*) Obviously there are exceptions. If an arrest of a hardened criminal, thought to have firearms, needs to be done, then the arrest team will blaze in with guns drawn.

[Justiciar]

I'm not a bit surprised. You whine about the use of the firearm in the US. While the Brits have emasculated themselves by locking up firearms, and the police sit relatively powerless (albeit gradually having come to the conclusion that yelling "halt" simply doesn't cut it any more, and a firearm is indeed a valuable law enforcement tool). Hence the old, but valid joke about UK law enforcement that rather than yelling "Halt, or I shall shoot," the Bobby need only shout out "Halt! Or I shall yell 'Halt" again!"

I am not quite sure where your rather twisted view of the British police comes from. I was a criminal defence solicitor (that's attorney to you guys) and my experience is that the police here are anything but powerless, as many of my clients discovered. As has already been said, there are many more ways of dealing with a situation that gormlessly pulling a gun.

Am I "whine(ing)" about use of firearms. Yes! You may think the levels of violent crime with firearms and accidental deaths involving firearms in the US are acceptable but I can tell you that they would not be tolerated for a second in Europe, so yes we would indeed whine. In the UK, where police are not routinely armed, the number of deaths using firearms as a weapon is small, though has risen in recent years and my own view is that the law has gone too far in the outright banning of handguns (other forms of firearm are not banned, but they are subject to stringent licensing and do have to be kept secure). Armed police are especially trained on the not unreasonable basis that using a firearm is a special skill for which not every moron in a uniform is suited for. Again, I don't have a problem with that either. You may be quite happy that people with an IQ barely in double figures can carry a gun as part of his work; I am not and neither would most people this side of the pond.

[smittysrv]

Listen to what John King has to say about the whole "held at gunpoint" thing.

Video: FAA resolves Kings issue (http://www.funplacestofly.com/blog.asp?ID=269)

[SNS3Guppy]

You may be quite happy that people with an IQ barely in double figures can carry a gun as part of his work; I am not and neither would most people this side of the pond.

That may be your problem. In the US, we tend to hire capable police, and you may be confused by a local, inferior product.

Listen to what John King has to say about the whole "held at gunpoint" thing.

The Kings are idiots. Martha could use a good tazering.

As far as gun control goes, it's never been shown to work. One should be highly suspicious of a government that takes away one's weapons. Hitler did that. Many despots and dictators have done that. The brits don't particularly like their citizenry to have firearms because the subjects don't necessarily remain subject any more. It was thanks to private firearms ownership, in fact, that the US became a nation, rather than subject colonies of the crown.

When citizens were required to turn in their weapons in Australia not long ago, violent crime rose substantially. Take away the weapons, and the criminals who were never following the law, still retain theirs. Taking away weapons disarms the good guys. In the case of Australia (were I used to live), robbery increased 44%, and the homicide rate in Victoria alone increased 300 percent. Go figure.

In the US, firearms are used 2.5 million times a year in self defense. Firearms are used 80 times more often to protect innocent lives, than to take them. The issuance of concealed carry permits has been proven in all cases to reduce crime rates substantially, and in every case where gun control is instituted, in the US or abroad, crime increases. Take away firearms from law abiding citizens, then the people who are not law abiding will have firearms.

For those whining about firearms in the US, you should know that twice as many children die from playing football, as from firearms, each year. In the 1990's, the number of firearms increased in the US by 40 million, yet the murder rate decreased by 40%.

But I'm telling this to the folks that freed the Lockerbie bomber. Excellent work.

[RatherBeFlying]

against the SB police chief, the officers involved, EPIC and the FAA for $10 million.

There's no better way to get an arrogant law enforcement to shape up their procedures than getting hit with a big fat judgement -- well, likely a settlement. I see punitive damages against EPIC for screwing up twice in a few months with the same airplane:\

In fact there was one CA municipality that dumped its police force and contracted with another one because they got tired of paying out on expensive police misconduct lawsuits.

Remember that this is California where Jaycee Dugard and her children got $20 million because the CA parole officers got one slipped past them by a wily perv who knew how to fly under the radar.

[SNS3Guppy]

Misconduct? Perhaps you should look up that word, and how it applies in this case.

There was no misconduct, and the police actions were conducted professionally and properly.

You could sue, but you'd lose.

[youngskywalker]

Guppy, for a man who claims to have flown everything from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle you do seem to have a hell of a lot of free time to spout utter rubbish on PPRuNe!

And before you qoute me saying 'At no stage have I ever claimed to fly either the Wright Flyer or the Space Shuttle....' I was being sarcastic, and not without good reason, a trait lost on most Americans.

[RatherBeFlying]

Pointing guns at innocent civilians is misconduct in my book.

In Canada simply pointing a firearm at a person without lawful excuse is a criminal offense.

[Intercepted]

Guppy, for a man who claims to have flown everything from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle you do seem to have a hell of a lot of free time to spout utter rubbish on PPRuNe! I'm only flying 100 hours a year, mostly PA28s and I work in an office, mostly between 9 and 5.

There is no way I could possibly find all the time that SNS3Guppy seems to have to write long stories about avoiding small arms fire in numerous of different aircraft types, flight testing, working as an instructor, beeing a captain not allowing his FO to fly because he is crap etc.

SNS3Guppy, is there something you are not telling us?

Where and when do you find all the time to write your long stories on PPrune and other forums?

Are you using a satellite phone to connect to Internet when you are on a mission?



As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[GetShorty]

While the Brits have emasculated themselves by locking up firearms

Seriously? :ugh:

Oh wait, yes. I feel much less masculine for not carrying a six-shooter in my belt. I wouldn't mind one of those snazzy Stetson hats and a set of spurs too.

I think most normally adjusted people would at least recognise this as an over-reaction on the part of the police, even though I think it's fairly easy to accept that they were acting on information erroneously provided by another agency.

The aircraft was following a flightplan for heaven's sake, not something likely to occur if the occupants had nefarious intent. Drawn guns just weren't necessary.

Sometimes common sense has to be applied even when the letter of the law doesn't demand it.

I'd say the Kings have responded with incredible dignity and restraint under the circumstances. Good for them :ok:

[airborne_artist]

But I'm telling this to the folks that freed the Lockerbie bomber. Excellent work.

The Lockerbie bomber was released by the Scottish Government, not the UK Government. I for one did not even have the opportunity to vote for any Scottish administration, living in England as I do.

67 police officers have been killed by firearms on mainland UK since 1900 - the equivalent fugure for the US is 7,000 - one hundred times as many for a population of about six times as great.

[SNS3Guppy]

And before you qoute me saying 'At no stage have I ever claimed to fly either the Wright Flyer or the Space Shuttle....' I was being sarcastic, and not without good reason, a trait lost on most Americans.

Ah, sarcasm. With a stiff upper lip, that's how you pronounce a lie.

Got it.

I think most normally adjusted people would at least recognise this as an over-reaction on the part of the police, even though I think it's fairly easy to accept that they were acting on information erroneously provided by another agency.

Most people in such a sheltered world, perhaps, that the mere wearing of a tee shirt with a picture of a knife on it can get one arrested. But not people in a free society where not only the police, but the citizenry are allowed to own firearms.


I'm only flying 100 hours a year, mostly PA28s and I work in an office, mostly between 9 and 5.

I fly between five and eight hundred hours a year on the average, do not work in an office, and operate (and live) internationally. Perhaps you should learn to manage your time better.

--As far as gun control in the UK goes, bearing in mind that the UK is roughly the size of a large postage stamp, we can pick a time period in the not too distant past...say 1997 to 2003 (the first five years of the UK gun ban), and find that firearm crimes doubled. In the last year of that period, firearms crimes rose overall in the UK by 35% (with a 46% increase in the use of 'banned' handguns, incidentally). This is in a society where ownership and carriage is practically prohibited, and where even "deactivated" firearms are banned. During that time, up to ten thousand firearm crimes were committed in the UK...a year. As of a 2004 report, the year 2002 had peaked with the highest number of murders in the UK in the last 100 years.

Gun crime doubled in the UK within the first five years after Labour took over.

It seems that gun control is really working for you. You're hardly in a position to preach to the US about how to control or use firearms.

In fact, a UN study published in 2002 noted that England and Wales topped the charts for crime, whereas the crime stats in the US continued to fall.

While you sit and cower in the UK and imagine all sorts of wild mythological stories about the USA being the wild west, don't forget to take stock and look in the mirror. Your gun ban isn't working for you. Everywhere in the US that weapons laws are more liberal, where concealed carry is permitted or open carry authorized, and where handgun and firearms ownership is allowed or encouraged, crime rates drop. Where gun control is enacted, crime increases, as one would naturally expect (take away lawful firearms and only the criminals are left with the guns).

While you prattle on and whine about police actions in the USA, which work, take great comfort in the unarmed police officer who can't come to your aid because he isn't equipped.

The police who handled the Kings used lawful firearms as preventative tools. These were not discharged. One may rest assured, however, that if one of those officers ordered someone to halt or be shot, then the officer can and would shoot. In the UK, the offer would be left to flap his lips in the wind. The Santa Barbara police responded in an orderly manner, executed a proper felony stop, secured the Kings and their aircraft until a determination could be made on their status, then released them unharmed. They were neither abused nor mistreated.

If you find the ownership, carriage, and use of weapons in the US to be such an offense, perhaps you would do best to stay on the postage stamp and forgo forrays to a place where one actually has room to fly, places to visit, far less restrictions, far more freedoms, lower prices, and the safety of an armed society. As one author noted "an armed society is a polite society," meaning that one tends to consider one's impending offense perhaps a bit more carefully if the penalty may result in one getting shot.

[Saab Dastard]

Time, gentlemen, please.

This thread is now fit for jet blast (sorry JB), so it's closed.

Feel free to debate the right to bear arms and US v. UK or EU elsewhere.

SD