Flying into a non-customs airport in France?

[Contacttower]

I was thinking of planning to trip to Reims, but I notice looking in the AIP that it says "Police/Customs: NIL". The useful guide to flying in France (http://flyinfrance.free.fr/) just says when going to a non-customs airport to land at one with customs and then go on but it seems rather silly to land somewhere you don't want to go.

I notice from the EuroFPL website that IFR plans to Reims directly from the UK have been filed before so I'm guessing its possible, is there a similar notification process to that in the UK (General Avation Agreement airfields) in France for airfields that don't usually have customs?

All my previous trips to France have been to customs airports anyway and I couldn't find the answer anywhere else.

[IO540]

In theory you cannot go from the UK to any non-Customs airport outside the UK.

There are probably rare cases where Customs can be arranged, with a well placed local contact, but the only case I have ever heard of was San Nicolo (Venice) some years ago, and TBH the pilot who made that claim turned out to be less than reliable.

Outside the UK, "Customs" includes exit Customs so you must also leave via such an airport if going to the UK (or to any non Schengen country). There are however occassionally possible work-arounds on this one - I will email you some stuff.

[Slopey]

We've been recently planning the same thing, heading for the South coast, and planned to stop in Reims, although it worked out nicely for us to do a fuel stop (coming from oop north) at L2K or Calais and head on from there.

You could always give them a call and ask, numbers are here: Reims-Prunay aerodrome (http://www.ville-reims.fr/index.php?id=986).

I seem to remember from our planning in a recent flight guide it was possible by arrangement.

That's assuming you mean Prunay, as Champagne is notam'd closed to GA.

[Contacttower]

Thanks both of you. :ok: Yes I did mean Prunay.

[Johnm]

Prunay used to have Customs facilties on prior notice, but no longer, so you cannot fly direct from the UK.

Champagne has been closed to GA because of a dispute between the civil and military authorities about budgets I believe.

[LH2]

Prunay is defo non-customs, unless it's changed in the last year and I don't see any reason why that would be the case. Nice airfield though (on site accom., but check if it's open, and very nice resto).

[Contacttower]

Yes I asked Reims and the answer is a no. It does seem silly though that while in the UK one can fly in and out of pretty much any reasonably sized airfield which is in the General Aviation Agreement but not in France. Is there no way round this?

[gasax]

No way around it legally. Part of the consequences of the UK not being the Schengen agreement. If we stand on the edge chucking stones then certain 'obstacles' appear.

Best bet is to stage through somewhere like Calais which can be very quick, reasonably priced and offers a reasonable coffee break.

Same arrangements on the way out are required as well, but perhaps less of an issue due to the notice needed for the flight plan etc.

[Slopey]

Just stop somewhere over the channel and then go on from there.

For example the trip we just did to France/Jersey and back - we flew into L2K to "clear customs". Place was deserted, nobody on the doors/desks etc. Just go through, have a pee, then go back out. Job done!

So just stop in Calais, clear customs, pick up some fuel if you need it and head on to Reims.

(Watch the closing times of French airports too, most are quite early, and remember to work it all out Zulu otherwise you could be a bit stuck if flying around in France after 5pm local).

[IO540]

Let me offer a different angle on this stuff...

Compared to a direct flight to a customs airport which is one's final destination, an enroute stop done purely to clear customs also

- burns extra fuel (descent+climb profile)

- introduces additional and significant risk into the trip (approach, landing, departure, descent+climb through icing conditions)

- introduces additional weather risk (weather at the stopoff airport, plus a change of weather at the ultimate destination as a result of the extra time spent getting there)

- introduces extra flight plan filing hassle (how confident are you of how long the stop will take? ... will you really file the next flight plan back at home, too?) so now you may need a mobile means of flight plan filing

- introduces extra admin hassle (the stopoff airport may be PPR or Customs/PNR)

- reduces the day which you have to spend at the destination (because you wasted a fair bit on the stopoff) which, together with the often late opening time at the UK airport, may mean you arrive in time for dinner, which is a pity since you also have to sort out the hotel etc...

- costs extra money on the ground

You get the idea, I am sure.

Landing to have a pee is just plain silly, because you could always have a passenger who happens to have had a coffee just before and is now really distressed and desperate. And if it is a child? One needs to have a "provision" (like an empty one of these (http://www.mensjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/tropicana.jpg)) for this, airborne.

I never stop purely for Customs (unless totally unavoidable; this tends to happen in Greece) or purely for fuel. If doing say a 1500nm trip then I stop halfway for a day or two, and pick a nice place to stop.

Obviously if you are flying a Cessna 150 from UK to Egypt then you will be doing an awful lot of "pointless" stops, but the average GA type is more capable.

Edited for grammar

[dublinpilot]

IO,

I think that depends a lot on the equipment that you have available and your own particular skill level.

You happen to have an aircraft that is capable of travelling very long distances without refuelling (at least in GA terms) and you have instrument skills that mean that the weather at your destination (or en route) have to be quite poor before you can safely land.

Compare that with someone like myself. The aircraft that I fly will run out of fuel in little over 4hours 30 minutes. I will never plan to land anywhere later than 3 hours 30 minutes, to ensure that I have reserves for unforeseen circumstances. At 120kts, it generally means that I don't the the abilities to fly to as far 'on top' of the weather as you do.

As I'm not instrument rated, it means that if the weather deteriorates enroute, or at my destination then I will need to divert.

If my destination was also for customs clearance, my decision making is somewhat more difficult has I have to first try and see if there is a reasonable customs airport that I can divert to. If not, then I will have the added stress about what to do about customs if I land somewhere that I'm not supposed to. (Incidentally I had to do this last year after leaving Switzerland to France, but had to divert from my intended French airport as the weather deteriorated faster than predicted. Customs weren't bothered in the slightest.)

If I land at the first available customs airport, then these issues don't arise at all.

If you've got the equipment for long flights, and the skills to get through all but the worst of weather then your chances of needing to divert are very much reduced, so can easily justify going direct.

If you don't have the ability to fly long distances, or don't have the skills to fly through poorer weather, then it makes sense to stop earlier to leave your options as open as possible.

At least that's my view on things ;)

dp

[IO540]

Yes, all true too, DP.

However I would say that the more picky you have to be about weather (and a VFR pilot is going to be more picky about weather than an IFR pilot, generally**) the better it is to kill the job in one go, before the weather gets a chance to change for the worse.

** IFR is not an automatic all-weather ticket; you get exposed to hazardous high altitude weather, while a VFR pilot can be flying at 2000ft below the massive clouds :)

Pre-IR, I used to do VFR trips of almost the same length that I have done since then. In fact the only reason the VFR ones were a bit shorter (say 700nm whereas nowadays I will go up to 950nm) was because I did not have the fuel totaliser system sorted to the required accuracy.

Especially for flying VFR as VMC on top - the best way by far to fly long VFR trips. You really do not want to arrive above a solid overcast (except possibly with a coastal destination, when certain tricks can be done safely if you are actually instrument capable) and this is yet another reason for flying the whole leg in one go.

If you had an accurate fuel metering system, you might be suprised how far you can actually go.

[Contacttower]

I'm kind of with IO540 on this one, I'm talking about a C182 which from Perth in Scotland where I am at the moment is capable of flying non-stop to Reims. Having to descend from the airways and go into Calais is a significant increase in journey time. I think I'll shelve this trip until I have the opportunity to go for longer (so that the stop doesn't matter so much) and for now chose somewhere different that doesn't have this problem.

[172driver]

If you had an accurate fuel metering system, you might be suprised how far you can actually go.

That is very true. The a/c I usually fly (a C172RG) has long-range tanks and, properly leaned, will do over 7 hours to dry tanks. Alas, being a rental, there is no such a thing as a fuel totalizer in it, so to be on the safe side, the max I plan for is about 4h30 - 5h00. In any case, IMHO that's long enough in one go in a spamcan!

[werewolf]

(Watch the closing times of French airports too, most are quite early, and remember to work it all out Zulu otherwise you could be a bit stuck if flying around in France after 5pm local).
In fact: Watch the closing times of French airport terminals
most are quite early : where in France ?
after 5pm local : where ?

[Slopey]

Can't remember off the top of my head, South of Paris and in the surrounding area (I don't have the charts and flight guide to hand). We were only going to get across the channel after 5pm local, and according to the French flight guide we had, the various airfields had opening hours listed which we couldn't make in time, closing around 1730.

If that's not the case, then great - on a future trip we can get in, but we weren't going to risk landing at a closed airfield with our paltry command of French when the book said they were shut. We did try and call a few of them, but didn't get any answer.

[IO540]

We did try and call a few of them, but didn't get any answer.All too common I am afraid... or you get somebody who ends the call when they hear a foreign language.

Different people have different views on whether to fly in such a case; you can guess what mine are :)

Re fuel metering systems, they cost a lot less to install than most people think. They almost certainly cost far less than fixing existing fuel gauges... My Shadin totaliser is accurate to about 1%. I reckon most "spamcan" pilots would get an extra 30% range (safely) if they had this.

[Mike Cross]

C'est pas trop difficile

The requirements for entry and departure of aircraft for any country are in their AIP GEN1.2

For France they are here. (https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/aip/enligne/PDF_AIPparSSection/AIP%20FRANCE/GEN/1/1011_GEN-1.2.pdf)

[gasax]

IO has a point in that an interim stop is not ideal. But in deepest darkest France there are not that many airports with customs - so the non-stop option just does not exist.

France is a teriffic place to visit if only because there are so many airstrips and hence going by aircraft is generally pretty easy. The airports in central France with customs are fine as destinations - but nothing like as plentiful as you would need for IOs plan to work. Typically they now have LOCO airlines and all of the admin and agravation that comes with them - so stagging through them to a nearby aeroclub is not such a good idea. (Three times through security at Limoges this summer.......)

This is why the Calais option is so attractive - it can be a 10 minute exercise and typically you will be cleared from 10 miles out to join on base - so yes it adds time - but there is no legal alternative you have to enter and leave via a customs field...

[IO540]

C'est pas trop difficile

I haven't got a clue what that means but assuming it is French, it gives away where your capability comes from :) If you can phone somebody up, a lot of things get "sorted".

[Mike Cross]

Well I was going to try and translate "It's not rocket science" but it was beyond me. I got as far as thinking something like "ce'st pas la technique spatiale" but it didn't have the same ring.;)

[patowalker]

Ce n'est pas sorcier.

More Merlin than rocket.:)

[LH2]

I haven't got a clue what that means but assuming it is French, it gives away where your capability comes from :) If you can phone somebody up, a lot of things get "sorted".

Next time you're needing assistance in, over, through, or even near France, I suggest you phone the BRIA (Bureau Régional d'Information et Assistance au vol, or regional office for flight information and assistance) corresponding to the area you intend to fly into. They are most helpful and will usually tolerate your speaking English to them--although I have had the odd and slightly surreal experience of bilingual communication, with me speaking English and them replying in French, all very matter of factly :)

Here is the list of telephone numbers: http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/docvols-uk.htm