JAA PPL in the US

[daanovich]

I want to get my JAA PPL in the US in the near future. I know some schools who offer the JAA programme in Florida (oft,eft,nac & easa). Does someone know some other JAA schools in other states?

[Aeronut]

from here Standards Document 31 Version 101: Organisations Conducting CAA and JAR-FCL Approved Courses of Flight and Ground Training | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=2854)

page 5 lists all approved schools outside member states

5 in Florida and 1 in California

[IO540]

What is it called now?

[IO540]

So, what actually happened? Did they lose Part 141 status which meant they could no longer issue the I-20, but they continued issuing them?

Can they issue an I-20 now?

Oddly enough, looking at the EASA proposals on converting ICAO PPLs (the other thread here) the advantage of going to one of those specific half a dozen U.S. schools is not all that great; one could use any one of the many Part 141 schools and just do the FAA PPL and then convert.

[BackPacker]

In turn, in order to be SEVIS approved that you also be Part 141 so it would have a domino effect.

Can you be a Part 91 school and still be SEVIS approved? In other words, is SEVIS approval exclusively granted to Part 141 flight schools?

I mean, a regular University or College can be SEVIS approved without having a Part 141 flight school on campus, so why would a Part 91 flight school not be able to get SEVIS approval?

[BackPacker]

That's exactly what I mean. Can a Mom&Pop Part 61 flight school gain SEVIS approval, if they so wish? Or is there some significant barrier that prevents them from doing so? Or are the SEVIS regulations (which fall under USCIS/INS or whatever it's called) specifically written to exclude Part 61 (which falls under the FAA, a totally different branch of the government)?

The underlying issue is that a school in the US that offers JAA PPL training will for all practical purposes operate as if they were a Part 61 school. After all, for JAA PPL there's no mandatory groundschool, academic program or whatever. The two reasons for them to actually be a Part 141 school is to get SEVIS approval and because most (all?) of them offer an ATPL program too.

Now if a certain school would do everything to become a Part 141 school but after their two-year provisional period would only have trained JAA PPLs, who do not complete an academic program yadayadayada, that school may well lose the Part 141 accreditation, and thus the SEVIS approval.

Hence, again, my question: Could these schools not simply be a Part 61 school and separately gain SEVIS approval? And if not, why not?

Just out of curiosity of course. But it actually goes a bit deeper than that. Suppose I (as a foreigner) would want to get trained at a Part 61 school for an FAA PPL. The way the regs are now, as you explain them, it seems that this is totally impossible. After all, I need an I-20 VISA, which can only be sponsored by SEVIS approved institutions, and a Part 61 school cannot be SEVIS approved. Sounds like unfair competition to me. There's got to be a way around this.

[IO540]

Your regular mom and pop flight school operating under Part 61 cannot themselves be SEVIS approved.

However, the TSA website will happily take your money for training in a Part 61 school - as I discovered ;) Despite the fact that you will never get a Visa to go there.

There is nothing to stop the SEVIS approved Part 141 school from conducting Part 61 Flight Training for the foreign student.

Which is how practically all U.S. based "PPL/IR" stuff is done - you don't do a Part 141 course. You go to a Part 141 school only to get the I-20.

It is a pity that Part 61 schools cannot do foreign students.

Well, they can, because you don't need a Visa for certain classes of training.

The 141 school in AZ I went to was definitely a "mom and pop" outfit :) Worked just fine.

[BackPacker]

The government are not going to let any old backyard Flight School go issuing visas to any Tom, Dick or Harry.

Again, why not?

The government does issue temporary work permits for any old backyard commercial corporation that wants to get a foreign Tom, Dick or Harry work at their place for a few years. Those companies do not have to go through a year-long, $2K+ review.

So what's so fundamentally different that the government simply does not allow I-20 visas (or an equivalent) for students that want to get trained at a Mom&Pop place?

And in any case it's not the flight school that issues the visa. It's the government that issues the visa once a flight school has acknowledged that the student is going to be training with them.

[BackPacker]

I'm not trying to argue that it's wrong. I'm trying to understand what the mechanism is here.

Generally if you look at the law there's a few points true:
1. The law usually makes sense if you look at it from the viewpoint of the lawmaker.
2. The law tries to be fair to all concerned.
3. Laws made by one branch of the goverment will typically not take into account any laws, regulations or categorizations made by another branch of the government, let alone supersede or be dependent on them.

A statement like "A part 61 flight school cannot be SEVIS approved and therefore cannot issue I-20 visas" seems to contradict all three of these points.

[BobsCousin]

Hi guys, getting back to the original topic a bit...

I am currently training for a JAA PPL at American Aviation in San Diego and it is most certainly business as usual here, they say (not saying it's true, but it's what they tell us) that the whole ICE investigation has nothing to do with the current management and therefore will not affect the school in any way.

Just to add, the flying here is great and the instructors are very good, with almost everyone I have met being ready for their skills test in less than 45 hours and passing it first time, out of the 8 or so people doing PPLs here at the same time as me, only one didn't pass the skills test first time.

Definitely recommend the school as a good alternative to Florida!

[B2N2]

Backpacker, let me see if I can shed some light on this.

1. The law usually makes sense if you look at it from the viewpoint of the lawmaker.
And it does. remember that the M-1 visa is NOT a flight training specific visa.
It applies to all vocational training. After 9-11, instead of creating a whole new visa category for flight training, it ws brought under the vocational "M-1" umbrella. So all the rules for the M-1 visa that were already in place have been adapted as necessary to fit the subject.
If I open a welding and hot rod shop next door I can not train foreign students in the art of building race cars. Not unless I am an accredited or approved school or organization. This accreditation can come from many different government institutions. Department of Education, Department of Labour which ever one has jurisdiction.
In our case an "approved school" is approved by the FAA. The only schools that are approved by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration)
are Part 141 schools. Part 141 schools are rigourously inspected and Part 61 schools are only visited if they have created a smoking hole in the ground.

So in short;
Only Part 141 schools are approved by a government institution and are therefore eligible for SEVIS approval.

As SoCal stated earlier, nothing to prevent a Part 61 school to get their ducks in a row and apply for 141 certification and SEVIS approval.

So no, it's not unfair.

[thannawa]

Well maybe before you go shooting off your uninformed mouth socal, you should get all the facts straight. The reason that the CAA still has Anglo American Aviation, UK Limited (FTO # 232) as the approved entity is because a CAA approval certificate must be issued to a UK held company. In Addition, not only is the UK Anglo company PPL approved, but as of June 28th, 2010 it was granted a CPL modular course approval also. The American corporation formerly called Anglo American Aviation, Incorporated (a US company), was fined along with its principles and duly shut down by US Government Federal Authorities.
American Aviation Academy, Incorporated is now the parent company of Anglo American Aviation, UK LTD, and therefore is the holder of the UK CAA Approval Certificate. The current company retained the website URL because it is easy to remember and also due to its longevity of being on the web. American Aviation Academy as mentioned in other posts is only one of six schools approved for this type of training, and the only one in the West coast. American Aviation Academy strives not only to be an alternative to Florida and its severe weather patterns, but to also be a conscientious company that places the needs of its pilot clients above all else.

[thannawa]

It would seem that due to you limited intellect; you didn’t clearly understand my comments. Let’s try this again. The CAA will not issue an approval certificate to an American owned entity. Therefore, the UK entity in London holds the approval but uses the address of the past 16 years for mail and correspondence with the CAA. Many organizations for your information have a headquarters in one physical location while receiving mail at another.

As for our website, again like many other companies, the site goes thru various updates and modifications; would you like to help us with our inside AAA link? It is obvious that you have a great deal of dead time on your hands to talk a lot of trash.

[thannawa]

I am sure all your business and website advice is appreciated at AAA. In fact, it almost seems that you are trying to apply for a position at AAA. If that’s so, then you should forward them a current CV as soon as possible.

You also have a nice day.

[Rhayader]

Apologies for intruding on the bitchfest but the US is probably no longer first on the list for quick fix PPLs. Two students at my club did the sums and after all the visa fees, fingerprint fees, long haul flights etc.. one went to Cyprus last week and the other goes to Spain next week. Two good kids that could have contributed to the US economy but were deterred by the totally over the top regulations and paper maze that constitutes todays flight training in the US for aliens.

[thannawa]

No apologies are necessary; this is just a little internet banter. As for your two friends, it is nice that thru diligent research were able to find something to suit their needs. As for regulation and paperwork, that is just a necessary evil that has to be dealt with regardless of where someone flight trains.

With regard to training in the US, no other country in the world has ease of access to airspace like in the US. There are also no outrageous user fees as with other countries.

[thannawa]

the I-901 visa fee is actually $200, and you are right that it is not much work to fill out.

[IO540]

Quite a lot of US schools charge $250 for writing out the I-20.

Comparing hours for hours, training in the USA will always be far cheaper than doing it in the UK. The reasons have been posted here many times; e.g.

- it is a full time head-down project, no interruptions due work or family etc
- flying every day (in So. Cal. anyway) which builds competence rapidly
- the flying is cheaper than anywhere in Europe and IMHO always will be, by a big margin
- previous ICAO training is accepted fully, whereas Europe does not (in general) accept any non-JAA training
- much fewer ripoff practices take place

I did my IR in Arizona (aerobatics.com) but sadly you can't do any JAA stuff there.

[jkveenstra]

Just to get back on the initial post of Daanovich:

I did my training in the US (actually at AAA) and was very happy about it (even with all the paperwork, which is not that bad in the end :rolleyes:).

If kept a blog about my training in Dutch. Since you are from Rotterdam, you'll probably understand it. (www.flightlog.nl (http://www.flightlog.nl))

If you need any help or info, just send me a PM

[BackPacker]

Quite a lot of US schools charge $250 for writing out the I-20.

Actually it's not so much that they charge $250 for writing out the I-20 but they charge $250 as an advance entry fee. This is then deducted from the total package price when you eventually show up at the school. And the package includes the I-20.

I suppose they've got to put some form of deterrent into place to avoid 100s of bogus enrollments. $250 seems a bit steep to me but since you'll get it back eventually, I don't see the problem.

[neale]

Over the past few years, I've flown in Europe and the USA, (Florida and California) and in my opinion, the US is not only the best in terms of cost, but also has the friendliest and most helpful aviation community in the world.

To anyone wanting to learn to fly, I would highly recommend the flight schools of Southern California; near perfect weather all year round. And if it's JAA you need, then definitely, American Aviation Academy in beautiful San Diego with its experienced and knowledgable staff is the only place to go.

You'll find hundreds of satisfied, happy pilots on the forums who attended AAA, and in my experience, it's usually those who found the process of learning something new (whatever it may be) more difficult than they expected, are the ones who complain the most about their training, or their training provider, as they just need someone else to blame.

[IO540]

they charge $250 as an advance entry feeI must be owed $250 then :) I will ask... 4 years too late.

[BackPacker]

I'm off on a business trip this week but I can review my records of my stay at OFT next week if you want to. But I'm pretty sure it was deducted.

[Phalare]

Hi,

Just to come back on AAA, I have been training with them back in 2008 when American Aviation had just taken over Anglo American; did my PPL there in 5 weeks; both JAA and FAA and enjoyed pretty much everything there, the instructors, the quality of the training, the friendly atmosphere at school (not as formal as in other places), the availability of planes for people preparing licences...and of course the joy of the californian weather and sky.

I even returned this year to fly in this lovely environnement, and was delighted again...I will be back for sure.

Of course not everything is perfect, as everywhere, but you should definitely forget about the problems Anglo once had since the school remains in very good terms with the CAA and even obtained the approval to train for JAA CPL.

Cheers,

Raphael

[IO540]

I hope AAA are still doing JAA stuff 3 years from now. I have a plane-mad 14 year old son who I said I would send him there when he gets to 17, for a PPL and maybe other stuff.

I am sure a few months in California is not a bad deal at 17 :)

But it will be a poor strategy to do an FAA PPL only by then - as indeed it is today.

[Lou Schreurs]

Dear all,

I came accross a lot of discussions and opinions about the the school.
Let me share my EXPERIENCE with FlyAAA:

I did my JAA PPL at FlyAAA and can only be positive.
Spend 7 weeks with them and are positive about the school, the instructors and the processes around I-20 and fingerprinting with US government. It all went smooth. I managed to complete my UK PPL without any issue. The UK-CAA issued the PPL licence to me in April 2010. Last week the FSDO in San Diego did the conversion to US FAA-PPL for me. If there would be issues with approvals, licences etc of the school, none of this would have happened...

I can really recommend this flying school, they do a great job.

Lou Schreurs
the Netherlands

[cruze]

My son has succeeded his conversion CPL / IR FAA to CPL / IR JAA with the minimum acceptable hours by the French DGAC. I am very satisfied with the training he received from American Aviation Academy. My son came in AAA with only 25 hours the ATPL theoretical French. 8 months after he had 270 hours of flight, the FAA PPL and CPL / IR multi . For me AAA was excellent. Many hours in a minimum time for a very reasonable price, allowing transformation with minimal hours in France and therefore a minimum of money.
I recommande this school.

I am 747/400 Captain TRE /TRI 29500 H Total times