Putting a TMG rating on your JAR PPL

[Okavango]

After an earlier thread and many discussions with various training providers this seems a very ambiguous area. Searching through Lasors 2008 I found the following:

However, a holder of a UK/JAR-FCL PPL(A) with SLMG
rating and a valid Certificate of Test/ Experience
for SLMG’s and has flown 75 hours as pilot of
aeroplanes (including motor gliders which meet the
JAR definition of TMG) can apply for the TMG rating
without passing the TMG LST.
Without a TMG class rating, the holder of a JAR-FCL SEP
rating may not count hours flown under national SLMG
privileges (even in an aircraft which meets the JAR definition
of TMG) towards the re-validation of the SEP rating.

This seems to suggest as long as you have more than 75 hours P1 SEP, if you get a SLMG rating on your JAR PPL you can apply straight for a TMG rating? My understanding is that a NPPL instructor can conduct the differences training and sign-off to put the SLMG onto the JAR PPL, after which a TMG rating can be added directly to a JAR PPL (with 75hrs P1). Has anyone recently had any practical experience of this process?

[Whopity]

In order to activate a SLMG rating on your JAA licence you need to pass a Class rating Skill Test. A SLMG is a different class to a SEP (ANO Schedule 3 Part 1) so it can't be differences training. If your licence doesn't already have a SLMG rating endorsed in it, you will have to pay the CAA for the addition. If you have 75 hours PIC then you can change it to a TMG rating that will cost you another rating.

If however you find an examiner to conduct a Class Rating Skill Test on the TMG you pass the test and apply for the TMG rating end of story.

There are all sorts of different things you can do with a NPPL, much of the information published by the LAA does not agree with the ANO or the advice given by the CAA examiners so everyone is confused however; your question related to a JAA licence, so its a Class Rating test whichever way you do it.

[BEagle]

Crazily ehough, you can fly SLMGs on a JAR-FCL SEP Class Rating having only flown (unspecified) 'differences training'. Not ANO 'Differences Training', just the 'differences training' as referred to in LASORS:The holder of a UK JAR-FCL licence with SEP rating may also subject to completion of differences training with an appropriately qualified flying instructor, exercise the privileges of their licence on microlight aeroplanes and SLMG’s in UK airspace only, without the necessity of obtaining a NPPL (the normal licence for such aeroplanes).

However, any experience gained in microlight aeroplanes or SLMG’s cannot be counted towards the flying experience necessary to revalidate the SEP rating.

However, the credit towards a TMG Class Rating to which you refer is only allowable if you actually bother to obtain an SLMG Class Rating, rather than just exercising SLMG privileges with an SEP Class Rating...:\

Confused? You should be! Virtually everyone else is....:rolleyes:

[Okavango]

Whopity - I agree. As BEagle says, differences training allows you to fly a SLMG, though you can't log hours toward SEP revalidation without the valid Certificate of Test/ Experience for SLMG’s AND then gaining a TMG rating with 75hrs+ experience (or a Class Rating Skill Test direct with a TMG examiner). The question is - is the valid Certificate of Test/Experience for SLMG in other words a Class Rating Skill Test and can this be performed by a NPPL instructor??? This is still vague, though I was highlighting the issue as already having 75hrs+ at least makes it a little more straightforward. It would seem stupid that I'd need to pay the CAA to put a SLMG endorsement on my license then pay them immediately to add the TMG rating - but I bet you're right!!

[BEagle]

The question is - is the valid Certificate of Test/Experience for SLMG in other words a Class Rating Skill Test and can this be performed by a NPPL instructor???

A CoT is not a Skill Test!

Revalidation of an SLMG Class Rating may be achieved through a GST; however, this must be conducted by an authorised SLMG Examiner, not by an SLMG instructor.

[Okavango]

Understood and agreed about the GST (slip of the fingers when writing instructor - meant examiner).

So then, what exactly is a valid Certificate of Test/Experience for SLMG that Lasors state?

[Whopity]

ANO Schedule 7Certificate of test
2. A certificate of test required by article 66(2), 68(1) or 69(3) must be signed by a person authorised by the CAA to sign certificates of this kind and certify the following—
(a) the functions to which the certificate relates;
(b) that the person signing the certificate is satisfied that on a date specified in the certificate the holder of the licence or personal flying logbook of which the certificate forms a part passed an appropriate test of the holder’s ability to perform the functions to which the certificate relates;This is the Law and has been since Jan 2008. There was an 18 month exemption whilst everyone got their act together; it was withdrawn 30 June 2009. Its what senior examiners were briefed to follow by the CAA in Oct 2009. I also know that the CAA has agreed to various other conditions but, doesn't actually know what its agreed to, because nobody checked it at the time of the agreement. This means that there are currently no exemptions in place to facilitate these variations and as an Examiner I and others are obliged to comply with the ANO and the Chief Examiner's guidance. It doesn't matter what the CAA has agreed to, if it contradicts the law, without an exemption, the agreement is void.

ORS4-679 (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=3109) exempted NPPL holders to fly SLMGs without a valid Class Rating i.e. Cof E Cof T or C of R. It only applied to NPPL Holders and was withdrawn 30 Jun 2009.

[BEagle]

ORS4 No. 679 only applied to NPPL(SSEA) holders who used to have the same SLMG option as JAR-FCL PPL(A) SEP Class Rating holders - do some SLMG differences training and that was it.

However, this was something which had occurred without the NPPL P&SC having been involved - an erroneous 'cut and paste' by someone at the CAA. Rather like the 'rolling validity' mistake.....

So, when the 2008 ANO changes finally came in, those who had been flying SLMGs using SSEA+differences training were given a very generous transition period of over a year to apply for a free SLMG Class Rating to be included in their licence - this expired on 30 June 2009, by which time all such pilots should have received their free SLMG Class Rating. ORS4 No. 679 permitted them to keep flying until they had sorted out their paperwork - but they had to do this by 30 June 2009 when the transition period ended.

After 30 January 2008, SSEA pilots without previous SLMG privileges were required to apply for SLMG Class Ratings if they wished to fly SLMGs; similarly they would need a Microlight Class Rating if they wished to fly Microlights.

So by 30 June 2009, all NPPL SLMG pilots should have had SLMG Class ratings. If on 1 July 2009 or after they hadn't, they would have been flying illegally. If they missed out during the widely-publicised transition period, then to continue flying SLMGs they will need to fly a SLMG GST and apply for issue of a SLMG Class Rating. Which is no longer free.

However, no changes were made to the SEP+differences training privileges available to SEP Class Rating holders. This included those flying under ORS4 No. 711, which became ORS4 No. 756 on 1 Sep 2009.

ORS4 No. 756 expires at midnight on Tuesday 31 Aug 2010 and has yet to be re-issued. However, the CAA are well aware of this and I expect the re-issue to occur on 31 Aug. There are likely to be some significant changes introduced with the re-issue.

[Okavango]

So regarding "must be signed by a person authorised by the CAA to sign certificates of this kind " is a NPPL SLMG examiner allowed to conduct a SLMG GST and sign off the CoT for a JAR PPL holder?

[BEagle]

The NPPL SLMG examiner may conduct the GST.

If there is an existing SLMG Class Rating included in the licence, the Examiner may sign the Certificate of Revalidation.

If there is no existing SLMG Class Rating included in the licence, or if there is one which has expired by more than 5 years, the Examiner may not sign anything in the licence. The applicant would need to apply to the CAA for the initial issue (or > 5 years renewal) of an SLMG Class Rating.

Unless you're intending to fly using the exemptions of ORS4 No. 756, going straight for a TMG Class Rating will probably be a lot simpler.

[Okavango]

I agree - the problem is TMG examiners are as rare as hens teeth, whereas SLMG examiners aren't. Why is it difficult to apply to the CAA for the initial issue of an SLMG Class Rating then get it converted straight to a TMG rating at the same time (if you have 75hrs P1).

[ASM]

By the way, SLMG & TMG examiners can be found on the BGA's web site here: [url=http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/instructors/motorgliding.htm]

SLMG ratings are important to the gliding community: the BGA is proactive in making sure there are an appropriate number of examiners.

[Okavango]

The CAA state that "a valid certificate of test means that you have a SLMG endorsement on your "Certificate of Revalidation" page that has been signed by an appropriate examiner". This would mean an XMG examiner (which are more readily available than TMG examiners alone). With 75hrs P1, this then allows direct application for a TMG rating to be added to the PPL (confirmed by the CAA), so as long as you have 75hrs P1, then it becomes much more convenient to find someone who can perform the necessary test (as per ASM's post - there are 14 XMG examiners and only 4 TMG examiners). Hope this helps others for future reference.