Yak 50 wheels up at Breighton [Archive]

Chuck Ellsworth

15th Mar 2002, 05:40

" There those who have and those who will ". .. .That statement in all fairness should also have the addition of.. .. ."However for the vast majority of pilots who fly retractable gear aircraft only a small minority of pilots are unfortunate enought to make this error.". .. .I truly feel sad for the guy or gal who did this to his / her new machine. . .. ................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Saab Dastard

16th Mar 2002, 00:10

I recall reading an article on this topic in one of the aviation magazines - apparently a significant number of those unfortunate enough to forget to lower the landing gear still call "final, 3 greens" out of habit, even with the gear clearly retracted. . .. .I think I'll stick to fixed gear and fixed prop for the moment!. .. .SD

Ivchenko

16th Mar 2002, 00:24

Saab Driver. .. .Not sure I agree, IMHO. I've seen or been near to about half a dozen wheels ups (grammar?) and in every case something has distracted the chief lever puller. Mostly go arounds after the gear is lowered, in one case wrong way circuit traffic, but basically something that disrupts the routine of (e.g. in a Yak) "downwind, airspeed falling through 200, pop the gear".. .. .Once something breaks that binary cycle, the chances of a mistake grow exponentially.. .. .Doing aeros in a brand new aeroplane over your field would definitely fall into that category, but in my view there is no correlation between wheels up history and piloting ability (Stephen Grey did it twice, I think).. .. .If the pilot is reading this I hope it makes him feel a bit better.

Chuck Ellsworth

16th Mar 2002, 10:31

ivchenko:. .. .I am not trying to get into a pi**ing match with you but I am still interested in knowing why you stated " There are those who have and those who will". .. .I am sure you were saying that tounge in cheek, however many, many readers of these forums will be left with the false impression that pilots who fly retractable gear aircraft will land with the wheels in the wrong position eventually.. .. .I agree that when the regular routine suddenly changes or when an emergency arises there is the possibility that we will miss some item we normally do or check in a given order.. .. .There is no reason to believe however that it is enevitable that every pilot will screw up in something as important as gear lowering or insuring not to lower the gear before landing. ( As in the case of landing an amphibian on the water. ). .. .One of the cautions we must observe when teaching or learning a skill that is subject to so many variables as flying is to not get into a rote learning, rote acting frame of mind. Rather it is important to constantly vary your flying routine to ensure you do not get into habitual responses to the same routine. By "thinking" every action rather than "doing" every action it will drastically reduce the senario that sooner or later you will F**k up. . .. .So to all those of you who are not experienced pilots or who are thinking of learning to fly, reflect on the advice that I have placed here on your computer screen.. .. .And don't fall into the " It is enevitable " school of thought.. .. .And hey' ivchenko I mean no offence to you personally, we just look at the same subject in a different manner. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. ................... . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

henry crun

16th Mar 2002, 11:30

Cat Driver, I cannot speak for Ivchenko but my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I repeated the comment.. .. .That saying, with minor alterations to the wording, had been around a lot longer than I have.. .I would bet it was originally made by someone after doing a wheels up as a means of laughing off the razz directed at him by his fellow pilots. . .. .I would hope that no pilot, budding or otherwise, reading this forum would think there is some sort of inevitability about the occurrence, because, as you have pointed out, the overwhelming majority. .do not.

Ivchenko

16th Mar 2002, 17:24

Hi Cat Driver. .. .You're right - tongue was firmly in cheek - it was just an old cliche that makes me smile and it does just remind those of us who haven't that we are not superior to those who have. And anyway, I was talking about forgetting the paperwork! . .. .Still stand by my comment that in the majority of cases it happens because something breaks the normal landing routine.. .. .By the way I agreed with your comments on the taildragging thread.. .. .Happy splashing

Chuck Ellsworth

16th Mar 2002, 23:23

I was quite sure you guys were only using that old saying tounge in cheek. However newbies to flying sometimes really do take us seriously and when we make some off hand remark some take it as the absolute gospel.. .. .Soooo I was just posting for no real good reason and as soon as this weather gets warmer I will be to busy to play with this keyboard..... ................ . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Shaggy Sheep Driver

17th Mar 2002, 03:41

One of our group members in a Yak 52 group did it a while back. I did not laugh and point at him like some did. In the 52, it is easily done (this guy had gone around - classic conditions for it to happen) and the radio was U/S so tower culd not warn him. Ther but for the grace, I say.. .. .SSD

Whipping Boy's SATCO

17th Mar 2002, 14:25

SSD, that wasn't 44470 at BZN a few years back? If so, that guy would regulary fail to give a gear check even though he was fully aware of the procedures at the airfield (Flying Club member?). Consequently, one Saturday afternoon with controller's attention split equally between said Yak and Des Lynham, the inevitable happened.. .. .On the positive side, I was well impressed with the lack of damage. The ac landed perfectly well on the steps at the trailing edge of the wing.. . . . [ 17 March 2002, 10:31: Message edited by: Whipping Boy's SATCO ]

Ivchenko

17th Mar 2002, 17:41

The 50 is not difficult to land - it's light and hence forgiving - but it can be tricky to nail the speed until you get used to it, and it helps psychologically if the first few landings are on a long runway.. .. .Breighton would not be my choice of place for first time to try, unless the pilot is very confident and experienced with taildraggers.

Stampe

17th Mar 2002, 19:22

I believe the pilot concerned was on his first flight in type though had flown a Yak52 and was experienced flying the "Yorkshire Air Forces" Hurricane.As one of "Yorkshire,s finest" warbird pilots normal caution and easing gently into a low level routine on a new type was obviously not required.Eye witness reports paint a very sad story of great confidence,to which end I believe the AAIB are seeking reports in order that others might learn from this area of human fallibilty.Sadly unless really prepared and practised attempts to impress can often have the opposite effect as in this case or even more tragic outcome.

M14P

18th Mar 2002, 02:43

Saker. .. .I have personally witnessed a really odd form of environmental capture / strange human failing when instructing a chap on a Bonanza:. .. .Hurried / b*llsed-up approach led to a late (and prompted) decision to go-around during which the gear was not raised. Being the patient type I waited to see what would happen theorising that he might be leaving it down for the sake of simplicity. Ah, sadly not - we reached the downwind point where the chap raised the gear at the point where it would normally be lowered. He then had a hard time understanding why this approach was so slippery feeling and the leapt out of his skin when the full flap triggered warning went off.. .. .I (in the manner of a smug instructor type) pointed to the gear lever. Embarrassed looks and a lesson VERY well learned. This also illustrates how useful it is to learn from (less expensive) mistakes.. .. .No such warnings (or flaps) on the '50.. .. .i believe that in a situation such as I descibed the psychological mechanism is very similar to 'get-there itis' i.e. a desire to complete or end the final objective at all costs.. .. .If you can't learn by your own mistakes, try to learn from others'

Ivchenko

18th Mar 2002, 05:04

M14P. .. .Yes, that's precisely the sort of routine breaking danger I was wittering on about earlier in the thread.. .. .Interesting question whether not having flaps in, e.g. the 50 (or many Austers if my memory is right) would increase or decrease the likelihood of forgetting the gear. I suspect increase, because you're less likely to forget two things, and remembering one of them would get you back in the groove. Perhaps.

M14P

18th Mar 2002, 15:14

Ivchenko (we obviously share a common enthusiasm!). .. .I teach 'trigger points' and the recognition of flow breaks when teaching on 'complex' aircraft and therefore I whole heartedly agree. It is difficult, however, when flummoxed so totally to guard against moving a lever one way when you meant to move it another way. It is a peculiar human failing and I offer this example only so that others can add it to their list of things to avoid.. .. .Of course, none of this is meant as a comment on the Yak 50 incident - more a discussion on gear up landings in general.. .. .I have a generally unworkable and rather impractical solution to gear up landings: I feel that if students only ever flew aircraft with retractable gear during training then they would forget to lower it less. I know - silly idea but if the principles of 'complex' operations are learned early enough then the 'reversion to type problem' would include lowering the wheels.

Aussie Andy

18th Mar 2002, 17:42

Hmmm... think I'll stick with fixed undercarriage!

Chuck Ellsworth

18th Mar 2002, 19:43

Maybe flying schools could put gear up / up down levers and lights in all their training airplanes.. .. .Then the studnet would be programmed from the start to select gear in the right sequence???. .. .What does FREDA mean?. .. ....................

Aussie Andy

18th Mar 2002, 19:54

FREDA is mnemonic often taught here in the UK:. .. .F - Fuel. .R - Radios / Navaids. .E - Engine. .D - DI. .A - Altimeter. .. .Andy

D Beaver

18th Mar 2002, 22:47

FREDA is the In Range (of the airfield) check, and so not likely to have been of use in this case.. .. .I42

Zlin526

19th Mar 2002, 02:28

So nice to see the 'experts' speculating on why someone lands gear up. Ok, the guy fu*ked up big time, and I bet he's learnt his lesson, but please, spare us the endless drivel....remember it's a piece of engineering and can be rebuilt.. . . .I dont hear many expert opinions voiced when a hamfisted Cessna 152 pilot wheelbarrows down the runway on the nosewheel, breaks the gear leg off and ends up with the tail high in the air??? Or is that blamed on the "weak undercarriage design"?. .. .Saker, were you actually at Breighton, or listening to the tale in the flying club bar at the time?. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. .P.s. Dont know the Pilot, so no favouritism

Ivchenko

19th Mar 2002, 04:24

Zlin. .. .I'm sorry you thought it was drivel. Please identify the things that I, Cat Driver and others said that were drivel. I considered every post carefully before before I submitted it. Others seem to have done the same.. .. .This was a useful debate before you came along.

big pistons forever

19th Mar 2002, 04:55

Early in my flying career a very experienced pilot gave me two excellent bits of advice. . .. .1. Work at developing a short final last chance cockpit check. Mixture rich, Prop fine, Gear down. On most light airplanes this is a sraight line across the panel from right to left ( in the case of the YAK series it is back to front on the left console ) . After EVERY landing ask your self " did I do the short final check ". If you did not give yourself a smack upside the head. Habit is very powerfull and if you get in the habit of always doing the last chance check it is much more likely to kick in when you really need it, i.e. when you are rushed or your routine has been broken. . .. .2. NEVER touch any lever or switch on the landing rollout before the airplane is off the runway or at least at taxing speed. This will go a long way to avoiding retracting the gear instead of the flaps or ground looping because your head was in the cockpit.. .. .I use both suggestions religiously and they have definitly worked for me.

Chuck Ellsworth

19th Mar 2002, 06:11

BPF:. .. .Yes we must have a workable check sequence and try never to skip quickly through it.. .. .Flying is a disipline that calls for continunity in your habits i.e. checks.. .. .I try to prioritise my habits and hope to never miss the really dangerous items. Therefore I have two never forget items on take off.. .. .1) Fuel sufficient and selected to proper tank.. .. .2) Controls free.. .. .Most other items on the take off checks will not seriously ruin your day but those two will.. .. .On landing there is only one item that will ruin your day and that is the gear selected to the wrong position for the landing surface.. .. .Regardless of what I am flying when I turn final I "always" ask myself where am I landing and where is my gear?. .. .The habit comes from several hundred years of flying amphibious aircraft, so no matter what the machine is that I am flying I ask that question on every landing. I even do it when flying helicopters, I know it is a redundant question on most helicopters but I do not break the routine.. .. .The main thing is each of us form habits and checks that will ensure ( actually you can never ensure ) or at least give us the best chance not to screw up.. .. .Sh*t there I go again rambling on and on and on.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. ............. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

Final 3 Greens

19th Mar 2002, 08:44

My sympathy goes out to the pilot and my handle reminds me how important it is to check "down and locked" before landing. (also to test gear up warning horn if possible.). .. .We should all remember that this has been done on many sizes of aeroplanes and is a potential trap for all of us when the workload is high and we are distracted.. .. .I was taught "PUFFA" as a short final check.... .. .P = prop full increase. .. .U = undercarriage down and locked. .. .F = fuel boost pump on. .. .F = flaps set for landing. .. .A = Altimeter set (more IFR than VFR, but good pradctice in the clear). . . . [ 19 March 2002, 04:49: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

Final 3 Greens

19th Mar 2002, 08:51

Cat Driver. .. .What sort of "boats" did you fly several hundered years ago? Was it a winged viking longship by any chance.... .. .(Only teasing). .. .F3G. . . . [ 19 March 2002, 04:52: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]

M14P

19th Mar 2002, 11:59

Zlin. .. .A bit glib old chap - wrong side of bed today.. .. .I actually tried to distance myself from pontificating about the caauses of a particular accident but seeing aircraft land wheels up does annoy me a little because it's just a shame.. .. .I considered banging on about how many accident reports are snapped off nosewheels but felt it was way 'off topic'. .. .If the AAIB thought like you then the reports would read as follows (and therefore have no merit whatsoever). .. ."Flying chappie got it wrong and screwed the pooch.. .. .Bet he won't do that again!. .. .I don't care what the causes or possible cures are because techie things can be fixed. .. .Aren't I clever?". .. .If you want to sabotage the dissemenation of useful tips and hints and destroy a sensible and active debate then may I respectfully ask you to go and p*ss in somebody else's pool?. .. .Ta!

Hersham Boy

19th Mar 2002, 13:14

From the start, my instructor has taught the prelanding checks (on a C152) with the first element "undercarriage down and locked" to be visually checked.. .. .I thought this was overdoing it to begin with - bearing in mind that if a check reveals a C152 undercarriage to NOT be down and locked there ain't much that you can do about it when airbourne! - but I now salute his wisdom absolutely!. .. .Hersh

Tricky Woo

19th Mar 2002, 20:43

Christ Almighty!. .. .I can only hope that my fellow pilot's won't be as scathing if, or when, I f**k something up.. .. .My sympathies to the pilot.. .. .TW

Ivchenko

20th Mar 2002, 02:25

TW. .. .Don't think most of us were being scathing - a couple were, which is a shame, but otherwise the debate is constructive and interesting because surely most GA pilots who fly retractables worry about doing this themselves one day, and there have been some helpful comments about how not to.. .. .Anyway, speaking as the prat who drove a Yak 50 into a car parked on the taxiway whilst taxiing out for an airshow last year, I have nothing but sympathy for the chap at Breighton. And two members of the team I used to fly with - who are supposed to be quite good - have landed Yaks wheels up, so it definitly ain't a beginners thing.. .. .24 hour hours without drivel is like a day without sunshine, don't you think?

Chuck Ellsworth

20th Mar 2002, 05:03

3 Green:. .. .SSShhh, don't tell anyone but I was exaggerating by several years.. .. .Actually the first boat I flew was a Sea Bee in 1954 a great airplane if a little underpowered as origional. . .. .It is interesting reading all these posts, there is a lot of good advice to be found here and generally everyone are quite civil.. .. .And for sure we must remember to feel for the poor guy that damaged his Yak. But for the grace of God go I ( With a little help from disiplined checks ) But hell "anyone" can do it.. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

alphaalpha

20th Mar 2002, 10:50

During multi training, I couldn't understand why the usual combination of power and flap was not giving a sensible speed and rate of descent on base and final. I carried on down reducing the power all the time, until at 400 feet agl the penny dropped. The gear was up. Why? Because I was distracted on downwind because the instructor had unscrewed one of the u/c warning lights, so I only had two greens. Two or three minutes away from the circuit to change the bulb followed by a base join, left me raising the gear instead of lowering it. Very easily done!. .. .My 'routine' failed me and I had no back up. Ever since then I have checked 'reds, blues, greens' on short final. But I am now very concious of what can happen if you're distracted, and eg unexpected r/t at the wrong time can be really dangerous!. .. .90 percent of my flying is fixed gear and 10 percent retractable so surely this means extra care is needed.

FNG

20th Mar 2002, 13:57

Aha, Hersh, that'll be the sought after fish-spotting variant of the Cessna 152 with the glass floor then....or do you just hang off the wing struts on short final to check out the wheely bits?

Hersham Boy

20th Mar 2002, 18:15

FNG - ya sarky get... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .You can see the L/H gear from the L/H seat fine from inside the cockpit. Those bad boys stick out like a pair of big lugholes.. .. .Granted I can't see the R/H gear from the L/H seat, but like I said - if it ain't locked, down or there you're f**ked already n'est pas?. .. .I think the intention is to build habit so I look for the greens/reds panel when I get to R/C kit.. .. .Hersh. .. .PS. Aerobats are fine for spotting fish when inverted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" />

ianbishop

22nd Mar 2002, 12:54

Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but I'm interested how many variants on the 'last ditch checks' there seem to be. I was always taught downwind checks as BUMPFFHH and still think carefully about U and check the P even though I've never flown Retract Gear / VP Prop.. .. .When I was doing IMC training, as you never do a downwind leg, I was a bit thrown by this, but established a pattern of when I set QFE, I did downwind checks.. .. .I also (after 5 years of having PPL) learnt a new set of short finals checks since flying at Fife / Perth, which is CRAP - Carb Heat cold, Runway Visible / Clear, Approach Established and Stable, Permissions (to land).. .. .I *still* occasionally forget something (I'm also involved with gliding, got distracted during pre-winch launch checks, and forgot to check 'All Clear Above and Behind').. .. .The human beast is prone to forgetting things, which is why check lists and mnemonics came about. I have some sympathy with the 'There are those who have and those who will' school; they at least are not likely to go on a witch hunt against someone who makes a genuine mistake, but will try and turn it into a learning experience. I am old and cranky enough to recognise that I am capable of fouling up - I try to make sure that the foul ups are not too frequent and the consequences not too dire!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Shaggy Sheep Driver

22nd Mar 2002, 19:18

WB SATCO - no, it was G-BWVR at Barton. It didn't look too bad after the landing - ran along on retracted main wheels and tail 'handle'. It broke the prop and bent the flaps. Unfortunately, the engine was also considered to be 'shock loaded'. It was many-houred, and so was just replaced.. .. .Expensive :~(. .. .It was subsequently stripped down out of interest - no signs of wear or damage (the prop is wooden and shattered, and the engine was throttled back for landing).. .. .I'm not sure how you guard against gear-up landings other than with a warning horn. IMHO no amount of memorising checks or training will guarantee that in some unusual circumstance, the pilot will overlook this vital action. I've even heard of chaps chantinf the '3 greens' while touching the lever (which is still 'up') and glancing at the lights (which are glaring red). Strange thing, the human mind.. .. .When I was flying a 52, I was very aware of just how easy it would be to land gear up. If I had one or a share in one now, I would have a gear unsafe horn fitted if possible.. .. .SSD

alphaalpha

22nd Mar 2002, 21:29

Saker:. .No No No. Definitely not! But having just re-read my last post, I can see how you misunderstood me.. .. .I was making two points:. .. .1. A true story (against myself) of how I could easily have landed wheels up, and the reason why (distraction).. .. .2. An example of distraction (an unexpected r/t call). This example came from a practice ILS approach I did last weekend. I was in contact with approach ATC and had told them that I would be going around, not landing. Normally, in this situation you would stay on the approach frequency. At 2 miles I was told to change to tower frequency. I queried this, explaining I would shortly be going around. Approach confirmed I should change. I changed. Tower soon cleared me for a low approach & go around. The reason for the switch was a vehicle on the runway. If it had not cleared in time I would have been told to go around early. Anyway, the point of the story was I was distracted by the unexpected and the result was I was 1/2 scale left of the centeline as I approached decision altitude. Not good. My fault, I should have just got on and changed frequency and concentrated again on the approach.. .. .Of course I agree that radio calls, red flares, red lights were all appropriate in the situation.. .. .I did once watch a wheels up landing and felf very helpless being quite unable to anything to prevent it.. .. .Regards.. . . . [ 22 March 2002, 17:33: Message edited by: alphaalpha ]

Yosser

24th Mar 2002, 22:23

Saker. .. .Some of the thread is very useful and thought provoking, and I have found it informative.. .. .Then there are your contributions................. .. .You are remarkable well informed for someone who did not witness the incident.. .. ."Very fast" approach........not true.. .. ."huge cough - huge bang".........not true, normal stutter on opening up on M14P. .. ."25 - 30 metres to go"..........out by an order of magnitude. .. .And the spiel about needing a NOTAM before carrying out aerobatics over an unlicensed airfield (which incidently HAS got a CAA exemption for airshow practise on the North side), which bar room lawyer made that up? In the open FIR compliance with Rule 5 and Rule 18 are all you need. . .. .We can all learn from factual accounts of such incidents, speculation we can leave to the tabloids.

javelin

28th Mar 2002, 11:56

Erect - yur spalling is abosmel, You were drunk Sir !

Yosser

28th Mar 2002, 16:45

Sakar,. .. .Wrong again.

Fast Erect

28th Mar 2002, 23:30

Ee-oop sithe.

The Mad Russian

29th Mar 2002, 14:02

I have found some of the contributions to this thread both factual and informative.. .. .Speaking as a relatively experienced commercial pilot (11000 hours – a significant amount of that heavy jet P1) however as a relatively in-experienced display pilot just starting his second season… . .. .The pilot concerned in this incident was as far as I am aware highly experienced. He apparently held a DA, as I understand the situation he was operating within the limitations of that authorisation (the particular airfield in question had been granted an exemption). He still made an error that to some, would seem basic! I think there is a warning to us all here, no matter how experienced we consider ourselves to be!. .. .Personally when it comes to flying any low-level aerobatic sequence in a new aircraft type I take my time to get to know that new aeroplane. I will go to altitude and practice recovery from erect, inverted, accelerated and flat spin modes and other unusual attitude recoveries (from the vertical i.e. tail slides being most important). I accept this is only possible in unlimited/advanced aerobatic aircraft, although the Yak 50 was one of the safest and most forgiving unlimited types I have flown to date. I will become familiar with emergency spin recovery techniques including using power on and full in-spin aileron (erect and inverted) to reduce recovery time/altitude. I do all this before bringing any sequence near to the ground, this work up takes me hours not minutes… may be this is due to my relative in-experience with display flying or just because I’m a coward and don’t want to hit the ground in uncontrolled flight!!. .. .I also try to resist any peer pressure, all your mates at the airfield want to see the new mount being put through it paces at low level! I resist until my sequence is absolutely ready… again because of my allergy to hitting the ground! I would not like to suggest that this was a factor in this incident….. .. .Just maybe the unfortunate pilot of this particular Yak 50 took on a little too much for his first flight on his new aeroplane (not helped by having to land an unfamiliar type back at a fairly short strip)…. Ending in a basic but expensive error! . .. .Incidentally the in the day job aeroplane, should you forget to put the gear down, the co-pilot will probably shout at you….. If he also forgets the aeroplane will shout at you (gpws ‘too low gear’)!!! After that the chief pilot will almost certainly shout at you!!