Joining Instructions or airfield information...

[Rabbs]

I visited Leicester yesterday and as always very friendly airfield and nice restaraunt, however when calling them I requested "Joining Instructions" as I usually do (and was trained to do) when less than 10 Miles out and Leicester radio said "Negative joining instructions as we are air-ground only and will pass airfield information". They did then pass the runway and QFE/QNH however the "Negative" did surprise me as I believe the joining instructions request is correct. Anyone else had this?

[flightlevel1985]

Its joining/airfield information if your talking to an air/ground or information service and joining instructions if ATC are present

[Jan Olieslagers]

Sounds like the radio operator was very zealous, yet strictly speaking she/he has no authority to give instructions so yes, that was not incorrect. OTOH I see the a/d mentioned as PPR so I suppose you called them before taking off - was the matter not discussed at that occasion?

[bingofuel]

Sounds like the A/G operator was just ensuring you were aware that he cannot give any 'instructions' as he has no controller priviledges, but he can give you information to help you manage your arrival. Unfortunately too many people seem to be unaware of the differences between A/G , FISO etc. It is very common to hear pilots asking an A/G operator for taxi instructions, or clearances to line up, depart etc. And they should all have passed the RT exam!

[Talkdownman]

CAP413 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.pdf), Chapter 4 Page 35, A/G = "Request join".

[Whopity]

As a FRTOL holder you should know that neither Air Ground nor AFIS can give you instructions, therefore it is inappropriate and incorrect to ask for them. There has never been such an RT call! Hearing it makes me cringe! And no doubt the Leicester A/G operator as well.

Technically CAP413 is also wrong as an A/G operator cannot clear you to join, so the request is meaningless. You are legally required to obtain traffic information and then in accordance with the rules of the air you Join. Legally you are not even required to report this however it is good airmanship to do so. Rule 45.

Another dreadful phrase is "Request Landing Instructions" If you don't know how to do it, you shouldn't be flying.

In most cases, you want the airfield information so request it in accordance with Rule 45 (4) and (5).

and joining instructions if ATC are presentActually its Request Join - its just unfortunate that this call has also been incorrectly transposed into the A/G phraseology as well.

[flybymike]

Accidentally using the suffix "Radio" or "Information" when talking to an ATC unit produces a far more indignant response than the OP received...:)

[IO540]

I tend to say "request airfield conditions" (upon which they pass me the wind etc, so to speak) and then I tell them how I will be approaching, e.g. "Nxxxx thank you, I will report on a 3 mile final".

This pre-empts the occassional A-G who pretends to be an ATCO and tells everybody to fly an overhead join with a RH circuit, etc, when there is no traffic anywhere near :)

Accidentally using the suffix "Radio" or "Information" when talking to an ATC unit

What amazes me is when people call up with say "Goodwood Radar" :) You get some funny responses like "wish".

[Whopity]

The whole point of the ground station giving their full callsign when you speak to them is so that you know what service you are receiving.
I tend to say "request airfield conditions"To which the response is Wet; Windy and Uncut!

[Cows getting bigger]

As far as phraseology goes, I tend to stick with whatever the CAP413 says. Under your circumstances, the phraseology should have been "..... radio, G-ABCD, (position), request join"

[mary meagher]

I hardly go anywhere any more. But used to transit regularly from Edgehill to Enstone. Calling, as follows: "Enstone, Golf Oscar Foxtrot Echo Romeo, Supercub inbound to Enstone, abeam Hook Norton."

and wait for an answer.

Usually Enstone Radio would reply with the runway in use and the pressure settings....they would never presume to give instructions, clearances, or permissions. Just advise on conditions.

But if nobody answered, my next transmissions were addressed to "Enstone Traffic, Echo Romeo joining down wind for two five...."

Just keeping the locals, if any, posted on my intentions. American phraseology which the Brits seem to understand. In the US, nearly all uncontrolled airfields are on the same frequency, called Unicom, which means you MUST begin with the NAME of the airfield you hope to alert.

How seldom I hear the name of the airfield mentioned in busy shared frequencies in the UK.....

[IO540]

Back when I used to rent PA28s, I once flew with a GF to Eaglescott.

Fro memory... about 20nm out I called "Eaglescott G-XXXX". No reply. About 10nm out, same call. No reply. Some chatter on the frequency about Steve and Sid meeting up for a beer... About 5nm, same call. Got a reply this time:

"Look mate, just make the usual calls at the right places and don't expect any response!!!!!!!".

I did actually land there (these days I would not bother after something like that) but didn't stay longer than it took to have a wee.

[jxc]

I find Eaglescott very relaxed and friendly

[gasax]

A long time ago at a Yorkshire aristrip - the radio response was "Bluddy hell lad, 'aving a cup o' tea, land up th' hill"

[chevvron]

A friend of mine (yes I do have friends) was taking a Kingair 200 low level and his route would take him over an airfield with an active parachute site and the airfield was notified as A/G. He called several times with his company callsign; no reply although he could hear the radio operator talking to the parachuting aircraft. Eventually the radio operator came back with 'XXXXXX what sort of stupid fxxxing callsign is that, why can't you use a registration like everyone else?'

[englishal]

I just request "airfield information" and then tell them how I'll be joining once I have got that....I never ask a Raido or AFIS for any "clearance", unless it is on the ground to an AFIS where you have to REQUEST taxi.

[Rabbs]

Many thanks all - I reread 413 (again) and do note that it states:
"A/C requests joining information for a landing"

I read this before I posted and brain read "information" as "instructions" and I was also taught "Joining Information" so no slurs on my instructors. Just me having a bad brain day.

Cheers

Rabbs

[flybymike]

A long time ago at a Yorkshire aristrip - the radio response was "Bluddy hell lad, 'aving a cup o' tea, land up th' hill"

That sounds like the good old days at Bagby. The unofficial take off clearance was

"Nowt to affect thee lad, Away you go..."

[LH2]

From a French pilot I know, flying into one of the London airports (!) a long time ago. According to her, her first and pretty much only call was:

"Allo!! La tour??? J'arrive!" :uhoh:

She reckons they didn't bother much with them radio calls back then. :E

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Rabbs,

The chap who usually mans the a/g at Leicester is a funny old bugga, and really does take the CYA issue to a completely new level.

For example -

Me: "... just a courtesy call to check your traffic situation and any possible confliction".

A/G: "We are a/g only, I can give you QNH xxxx".

Of course he's right, I don't think anyone would deny that!

HOWEVER, as an a/g unit you can mention previously reported traffic. Every single airfield I've flown to with a/g has come back with something along the lines of, "Cessna 172 reported in the xxx area..." And as much as people could argue the toss on that one crying about information etc, the fact of the matter is, that is how it happens 99% of the time.

Indeed, I hear it every time I fly into a radio airfield, and you know what - it makes it a much safer situation for all involved. Ultimately I think of 'radio' as a bit of a free for all, we all talk to everyone else and thus we all build up a picture in our heads of where everybody is.

And what previous posters said - I always go for 'airfield information' at A/G and AFIS airfields, and 'joining instructions' if ATC.

Sometimes when busy and distracted it ends up being 'joining instructions' to an AFIS unit or vice versa, but ultimately we're only human, and most of the time they know what you're saying and will correct you in their reply.

Cheers. :)

[Talkdownman]

From a French pilot I know, flying into one of the London airports (!) a long time ago. According to her, her first and pretty much only call was:

"Allo!! La tour??? J'arrive!"

She reckons they didn't bother much with them radio calls back then.

If it had been her flying the Air France Dak F-BBBA she could well have been addresses by our infamous Heathrow ATCO 'Cockney Robbie' as "Three Cheers Alpha"...
HD will concur that things were much more relaxed in those days. He may be along with more stories...

[WorkingHard]

Is the standard o/head join and more importantly proper positional radio calls from all aircraft not taught anymore? Very recently I joined in this manner and reported downwind as usual only to have the first call from another aircraft reporting as "joining downwind". PLEASE learn to use the radio to report your position appropriately.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

"joining downwind"
What did that mean?

I would guess it to mean "I'm approaching the airfield, and I intend shortly to make a downwind join" followed in due course, when he gets there, by the usual "downwind" call.

Did he mean something different? - if so I can't guess what!

[WorkingHard]

With no idea of distance or time to "joining downwind" then situational awarenes is very limited. I prefer not to guess what is meant, clarity would be preferable.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Yes indeed, "approaching from the south east, five miles to run, joining downwind" would have been significantly more helpful.